Cricket wireless once to make your wireless experience easy, so can stress less and smile more enduring black history month. We are recognised the impact of black pioneers who left their mark in history. It is because. determination of those black leaders that came before that few your generations can continue pushing boundaries. The world around us is smart We think your education should be smart too, but the flax path, learning format from. billion university. You can set your own debt. and leverage your experience to move forward at your pace, visit capella dot you to learn more capella university. Don't just learn: learn smarter imo, Berwin free welcome to supersede conversations the podcast. I believe that one most valuable gives you can give yourself is time. Taking time to be more fully present. You journey to become more inspired and connected to the deeper.

Around us starts right now. Day on Superbowl Sunday he's been named. the one hundred most influential people buy Time magazine, journalist, podcast her and author of five New York Times best selling books, Malcolm Gladwell as a column is for the new Yorker and hosted the popular podcast revision. history. Malcolm challenges us to look at life from a different perspective, We first met on the upper show to discuss his book blink, which became a glow Bull phenomenon selling me they six million copies. It's been translate. into more than twenty five languages in time when division, tension and anger seem to pervade our daily lives, Malcolm Gladwell once again invite It's us to turn the whirl onto its side and take a closer look at what really going on in his gripping new book talk

two strangers what we should know about the people we don't know Malcolm puts forth the theory that too often we make drum Matic, often dangerous assumptions about people we don't know through Well known cases like the Bernie made off scandal and the IMF. Knox trial, the Jerry send us he abuse trial and the rain we charged arrest and death of Sondra Bland, Malcolm Gladwell, examined his belief that many of us unconsciously invite conflict and this Standing into our own lives, I have to tell you I love this book. This is my favorite of all the books except tipping point, Blank David and Goliath, but this is, I think, some of your most profound work of thinking and particularly for a time such as this, that we're living in and everybody thinks the world is Topsy turvy and

you have a way of three, doing over the rocks and letting us underneath and allowing us to actually see that we are not always as they seem and now you have so many imitators, but their call the glass Well, I M imitated: how does it feel you? You might have a few yourself. I dont. Think of them is imitators you're drunk I always like that. I mean you ve, created a entirely new John RARE looks. I was thought I was joining them. A movement is opposed to leading a movement. I thought I felt like I was we. What journalists and academics have always tried to do, which is to give us the means to look at problems in a new way does outside to think of yourself ass being the someone who started something I think that's a little of that. Others say that Ok, what are you saying? You started sovereign Alexander Gladwell in error. we're in now of genre of books.

Don't go anywhere or to come after this short break, wireless knows that black history is everybody's history, that, we are not only recognising black history, but also black, heritage and black progress. So Two black trailblazers who faced adversity head on and gave it all had when others didn't have the opportunity to hear so. Leaders who left their mark and made their voice heard when other did not have. One hears supply innovators, whose presence remain within every community, they sought to improve here's to act visionaries with amplified the voices of as who strive to continue the work they started Cricket Wireless wireless provider. That makes you smile, salutes the black pearl tears of yesterday and the black leader of tomorrow visit cricket wireless Come to learn more and as Ways: cricket

no annual contract, no credit check, no hidden fees, smile you're on cricket. more of this conversation in just a moment, this path cast is: sir, by better help online therapy and better help. Once tackle some of the stigma around mental health, for example. Many people think therapies for other people, utilizing therapy doesn't mean something's wrong with you. It means you denies that all humans have emotions and need to learn to understand them, not avoid them, and we ve been taught Mental health shouldn't be part of everyday life, but that's a mist sub could sing on and investing in, the health of our minds is just as important is taken care of our bodies lastly, some people think he should wait until things are unbearable to try therapy, but that isn't true therapies, a tool to utilise before things get bad. and it can help you avoid those lows better help

is customized online therapy that offers videophone and even live chat with your therapists. So you don't have to see any one on camera. If you dont want to its much more forty than in person therapy and you can be matched with Airbus and under forty eight hours to try and see why over two million people have used better help online therapy and operas super soul conversations listeners get ten percent off their first month at better helped calm, Slash super saw that's better h e lp dot com, slash super saw. But this is particularly interesting talking to strain here's. How did you come to decide that this was going to be the next book you we literally are waiting for when the next book is coming out, it's been now almost six years. How did you decide that this would be it in talking to strangers? Was the wrong

can you wanted to uncover? We had that wave of police shooting cases brutality, cases beginning with Michael Brown and twenty fourteen and I was really shaken up by them, and then I began to read about that. Price and realized even going on forever, which ass, I suppose, is very naive of me not to realise that that it was on a scale. I never imagined a thousand civilians are killed every year place in his country, logically been going on for ever with african Americans. I was saying this to my white friends: there saying: oh, no, no! No! I got this been going on for ever now. We just

the cameras to show you, yes, yes and I I just thought there was something broader there- that the kind of ways in which we were trying to make sense of these events seem to me to be inadequate, and I also what I dont. What I really dislike about those kinds of cases is where we have a big fuss and is, kinds of people jumping up and down, and we end up pointing at someone in saying, because we're always looking to blame somewhere. It's him yeah, he just didn't notice. He's racist unity is doing he's a bad copies, evil person. I think you know what, if it happens, as often as it happens, maybe there's something deeper going on here and I'm honored and racism. Well, in addition to you, can't separate race from these police. Shooting

Yes, it is inextricably part of the reason why they happen, which you also can't say that this is just about a racist cop, because it's more than that. is there something deeper going on with the way in which we have structured relationships between not just between police officers? In the, but also between strangers of all kinds, and that's really why, where I got to my book as I can we take a step back and say: wait a minute, there is something fundamentally wrong with the way we are making sense of people who are different from ourselves, bringing the wrong strategies to that problem, and is there a way, For me, the kind of shedding light on those kinds of strategies in a way that helps us not just makes sense of things like Sandro Blanda.

Ga browner in areas like there's only abandoned Ox Meda Knox, jury Sandusky, the standard rate K spread only eight off. I mean all of these cases struck me as being versions of the same problem, which is there to people, are trying to have a conversation and they can't figure each other out. and the camphor grow each other up because her get making errors. So the question is: what are those errors you write on page fourteen if we were more thoughtful as a society, if we were willing to engage in some soul, searching about how we approach and make sense of strangers. Saunter blind would not have ended up dead in a Texas jail sell so she's, a central figure in this book. Tell me why so she's the beginning and the end of the yes she's, a frame for the whole book. Obviously I have thousands of cases I could effect to beat a frame for it, but there was something about

just how stupid and senseless and heartbreaking her case was here's a woman who is twenty years old? Who has come to get us to start her life anew in previous texts in Lebanon, college town, in in the middle of rural taxes? And we must say this happen, as you just mention after Michael around after Freddy Gray Effort to Lando Castille AIR, Garner Walter Scott out now Sondra Plan, now Sondra, Bland and she's a very politically aware person, but she's she's really should had some difficulties in Chicago she's, moving

starting a life over to be arrived in in prairie view. Texas. That day she gets has a job interview. She gets this job she's leaving the campus to buy groceries and a police officer looks at her and makes a judgment, and his judgment is, I think, there's something funny about her any trump's up an excuse to pull her over and what what is what is so hard about their cases. You remember is we have the dash cam records, the conversation that ensues, which we all here, the entire conversation conversation, and it goes on four pages. Will it starts out he's these friendly? He comes in ass, where she, okay and wire, here and we think it's fine until he asked her to put out the cigarette and she says correctly what I have to put up my cigarette and by the way, she's done anything right. He pulls up behind. This is a kind of weird but important detail. He paused

and behind her. She turns right out of the campus and she's going along a ring road, the campus- and he thinks you're something funny about her, so he pulls out any drives really fast behind her. So what does she do she moves over to get out of the way, of course, which is what you do and is drying money. That's right, you do the thing that we're tell which was to do pull over to decide, but she doesn't use, are turning signal. She's getting out of the way right us? So what does he do? We poles or operators his man, you didn't turn you didn't you. Turning signal, its a completely and she's at will I do. I mean I didn't use by turning signal, as I was getting out of your way exactly yes and so she's irritated she should be Forlornness Trump, and so he is about to tell her, man. You should have used here you're turning signal she liked to cigarette. He says: could you put that out and she says correct

I don't know why do I have to put out a cigarette and then what the thing is? Everything goes sideways and they have this argument that escalates and he ends up hitting her dragging her out of the car Hannah coughing her Roger yeah, where she commit suicide today. So yes, red and listen to that transcript. I can tell you how many times it upsets me more each time I and the question is: how is it something that trivial can go so badly arrived in the broad daylight in one of the most civilised countries in the world. Yes and you, you say so correctly, see that story we see Falander Castille. We see Michael Brown. We see all those stories and people just move on

and you won't talking to strangers, because you wanted us to stop and not over, and I dont want people to ever forget who Sandra Bland is, but we can't keep filing these things away and forgetting about them without drawing some kind of conclusions why they happen. So how do we began to actually shift from the judgment of others and then start looking at ourselves and asking the question what role do I play in this? Is that your attempt to try to get it to do that? So what do. The book is to systematically break down the faulty assumptions that lead encounters between strangers to go awry. So I need you, for the first time. All we know about each other is what we can see about each other. We start to have a conversation yeah. Sometimes that goes well. Sometimes it goes horribly wrong, but we're making judge

all the time, based on our own unconscious biases and conscious, exonerate I'll. Give you one of the ones that I spent a lot of time on is was what I call the assumption of transparency, which is when I see you. I observe your demeanor your face, your expressions, your emotions, body language, and I draw a conclusion about that. My assumption is that way, you represent your emotions, on your face and with your body, language is reflective, is consistent with the way you feel in your heart. If you smile at me, it means you're happy if you frowned at me, it means you're, not happy right. That is true with some people some of the time, but it is, true of many people a lot of the time now, I think so interesting because you use in the book. You call it. I think the friends fallacy, because we ve all grown up.

King? These said coms and we see in the characters the the match between ever is going on, looks like whatever their faces, also representing, so it took an episode of friends and but we wish you much friends you reminded about how insanely complex those shows where, like so much happens, so everything was, if you turn off the sound on an episode of friends, can you follow what's going on and the answer is absolutely solely, and why can you follow because your insanely complicated, because everything that happens is on everyone's face when Monica is angry she looks angry when Rossi perplexed. He looks perplexed at all the way down the line, and that's our assumption of the way the world works. We assume that our

emotions are reliably being broadcast to the world turns out. That's not true at all, so I had a psychologist who studies facial expressions, analyze segment of that friends episode for me and break it down, and it is absolutely the case. You India is a kind of way which emotions of the face can be registered and kind of others was so fascinating, awarded yeah and what I'd what she did was. She said, Kate is in a specific subset of a scene where ROS is really angry. What's on his face, and the answer is the perfect illustration of anger and in a specific scene, where monarch has mixed emotions She is both upset at at her brother. Revising, but also, but also like, wants to express her love for her mother. Does her face? Show that mixed emotions? The answer is totally. Does why? Because their actors in the real world where I was reading this, I must say my closing the friends actors

be so happy to rethink, icebreakers, resetting, perfect, perfect execution of emotion rights, but in the real world that doesn't it doesn't work? That way, may I say that so many times those remove his book and I get to Nineveh an analysis and I go cash. That is so true, so Because in the real world it doesn't doesn't match. More of our conversation in just a moment now, the time to not grocery store trips off here to do list you count on hello, fresh to make home cooking, easy fun and affordable with farm fresh prepared, and ingredients and seasonal recipes delivered right to your door. Hello, fresh offer. fifty menu and market items to choose from every week, including veggie, fit in some family, friendly and gourmet options, easy you changed your delivery day, food preferences and planned size or escape a week whenever you need with hollow cos offerings you can customize

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calm, Slash podcast! I have a chapter on demand. An ox cart! Yes, that's the whole Amanda Knox case in a nutshell, her inner emotions don't match the way she behaves. She behave like someone who didn't care what happened to her dead room it inside she cared, but she just as someone who those her feelings and our outward expression of emotion, don't match, and it started the moment she was with other friends of the room mate who was murdered. She didn't have the same reaction. They did so they then become suspicious of. Why is it she's behaving like us? Why is she grieving yeah? Why was her hug so stiff the technical work for what she has is mismatched, her interfere

don't match her outward emotions. When we deal with someone who is mismatched, there's a very real risk, we will get them very badly wrong, so dirty made off is mismatched is in the opposite way. If you deserve it now, I will endeavour to God. I was asked whether they goodness I didn't idea because I would have I would have been seduce do you know why? Because I would have heard from outside. Will this prison in it and Ellie resolved such a dear friend of mine in Ellie Resell was in, but I would have thought will have this persons involved in this person's. Invest in this present invested must

a great guy. You couldn't have all of these outstanding people who also care about their. You know: finances invested with him if he, if they hadn't check them out, that's what I probably would have thought, but he yet he is someone who's inside he's a psychopath outside. He seems like the most trustworthy kind of man of integrity. That's so that's problem number one would know the we haven't talked about the one thing that is now going to become a cultural phrase, and everybody is going to be talking about the truth default defaulting to the truth? The reason why everyone accepted Bernie made office because the river to the truth here this is a really interesting idea from psychologists call him. The vine who, I think is an absolute

brilliantly rethought some of the most central issues about how human beings communicate and his core insight is his dealing with the fact that human beings are really bad at figuring out when someone else's lying we're just all with some excluding judges. Judges are battered cops a few tiny exceptions, but generally were not good at it. In a question is, why are we good you'd think would be good. My wooden evolution have favoured those who are good at detecting decision, and he says no. The opposite is true that we are conditioned by evolution to basically assume that everyone is telling the truth. Unless there is some over well. Reason to believe otherwise and unless the doubts rise so high that this is no way to believe someone selling this issue anymore, and I think it's wonderful that you start with people where they live. You were saying- and everybody can

to this- if you believe your spouse is cheating on you and you ask a question Are you cheating on me or what this doesn't mean sense or that doesn't make sense and they give a reasonable answer. Most people will believe it. The first time you will default to trick. You ought to truth. It's are our preferred position is to believe that the world is telling us the truth and that's why he was society works. If I, if every statement you make, I think you know she lying rule. We couldn't have a conversation. If that, if everyone does that, then the world doesn't work. Nuts timid vines point is that the reason human society functions is because we have a base an assumption that people are not lying to us and what that means is every known again. One time out of a hundred when someone really is lying to us,

there's a strong chance, we're gonna get taken, we're gonna get to see. Yet, let's talk about sin dusky and the people who end up having to serve time because they defaulted to the truth for too long. Let's talk about you so I remember the horrible case. A pen state of Jerry send us he this cereals, Job Lester, who was a prominent football coach of the school. He was apprehended, he was convicted, he's now and you have the rest of his life, but the pen state the prosecution didn't stop there. Then went and went after senior officials at the university, including the universities, president, guess cases still ongoing, but it pursued a criminal case against those senior administrators as well for a cover up for, basically of not of letting this man run free on the pencil campus, I feel very strongly that it

wrong to pursue a criminal case against those, the universe, administrators, what they were. They were deceived by a child molesters and by the way child molesters one of the things that makes them chow last year's is you're really good at deceiving the rest of the world have like I've been trying to tell people. It's not easy does cause. If, if you not good at it, then you can't succeeds are introduced. the child yeah it's like putting do. We do be put the people who were deceived by Bernie made often to Joe did we say you have known better you? You are not we didn't. I. I really think that attitude is deeply deeply problematic. Why we cannot look back. in retrospect ends and blame someone for the failure to pick out a one in a million psychopath we're not hard wired to find psychopaths in our midst? One of the big themes of this book in his does

ty back very strongly to the central bank case is that we need to be far more generous in our assessment of other people. We are just so quick to assume that something there was a cover up. Some one was negligent some one and not, and I think it's important risk to pause and to understand when, when sometimes a bit when mistakes for me, It is because of perfectly understandable a legitimate reasons why you keep kicking the rock

uncovering so many interesting things in talking to strangers. One of the things that struck me was the Stanford rape case. Can we talk about that? I'm quite sure this is going to be the most talked about part of the book and it was really hard to write about. So that was the case. Where happened a couple years ago, freshmen at Stanford a boy meets woman at a property there are both very drunk and he takes her outside and he sexual assaults her and he is discovered and he's tried and he spent six months ago hugely controversial case of a time, particularly because it comes. It is a kind of the war

signature cases that has thrown a spotlight on just how much. How big a problem is. Sexual assault now is on campus, and I was interested in one specific part of that case, which is to what extent does alcohol contribute to this epidemic of sexual assault right? because the weird thing is that when you start digging through the case files of sexual assault cases, everyone's always drunk really really hard to find a sexual saw case where both parties were sober. You mean on campus on camp cycle capacity. I gave us, and so I start to talk to people who study sexual assault on campus and people who study are gone and they were like. Oh, yes, it's almost always our cows almost always involve any began to talk me through the research. Well, when you drink and by the way, the way that

many of the people who are in vault in these cases and also invite, I would say, more generally, the core of people who are drinking on campus in two days in our drinking in a way that you and I did not drink in and that age drinking has changed. Quite adequately over the last one s when I was just reading about is like everybody's drinking everything today, if you talk to, I was talking to some friends of mine children, friends of mine, who were in college right now, and I said how many of your friends have experienced blackouts and they just like download another every weekend, this guy areas we talk about it. They talk about on Friday night before they go about Laguna get black eyed drunk. This is a very different environment and that has consequences for their ability to talk to strangers parties are about talking to strangers when both strangers are drunk. It's a different conversations, since this was the thing that was so revealing to me many of those who study alcohol

no longer consider it an agent of DIS inhibition. I mean I underline that, because all of our lives, you ve, been told it disintegration. Instead, you say they think of it. As an agent of my appeal tell us what you mean by that to the old theory about alcohol was Malcolm, get drunk and as Malcolm gets a little tipsy. What you see is the real Malcolm all of the constraint uptight, Malcolm falls away and you're, seeing like them. I you see my true self. We no longer believe that that's nonsense instead was happening, is a little more complicated when you drink

What's happening is you're, be basically get dumber. Your cognitive faculties start to kind of shrink and what happens when that when you're cognitive faculty shrink, when you get dumber, is that you get my optic everything that is meaning you just focused on what's in front of you all that matters, is you ok, not drunk Malcolm all, like all matters is not just you in front of me, but all matters is was happening right at this very moment so lonely. I dont do certain kinds of crazy things because I really oh doubly consequences. Half an hour later I'll get in trouble or tomorrow I wake up in a big o, my god that was that's. Why behave the way behave when I'm sober when I'm drunk all thought of tomorrow falls away, all thought of consequences falls away and what matters is just here and now person in front of me. I am my optic when you are my optic. You are not

yourself right. I've got another great example that you used Malcolm. Is that the drinking affect your differently ending on where you are that if your thinking and your add a football game everybody else's drinking? Then it is euphoric, Bob blah and Few are sitting alone at a bar and you drinking alone, that the alcohol has a completely different effect. Yet so myopia theory says that whatever is your immediate circumstance is controlling the way, you think and feel and behave. So if I'm drunk Anita, wild and crazy party, I'm wild and crazy, I'm drunk in a dark quiet, deserted bar I'm depressed so you're at the mercy of your environment, now think about this interesting. You take an eighteen year old, who was full of hormones whose immature who doesn't have much experience with girls. You taken to a rapid

you get him to two and a half times the legal limit about call. So he is completely myopic. You crank up the music, you have all kinds of may have around him. First values a longer himself and secondly, he is primed to do something and readable stupid. If not criminal, we're just a formula for its something bad happened. They something super super bad happening and we're not communicating that fact to kids would telling that eighteen year old boy who goes there frat party, if you get blotted drunk, you are putting, let yourself risk other people at risk. Right, there's a sense that out how is a kind of harmless? It's not harmless. It is a dangerous dangerous drugs, and I think that absence. What makes me so and what makes it we're dangerous is not being aware of the consequences of what happens and it's not just. I think we ve done a fairly decent jobs, in recent years of not driving while drunk or

not doing certain things when you're in intoxicated? But what talk two strangers allows us to see is that it's even deeper than its deeper than I can't. If I am wasted right now, I have no way to really understand who you are or what you want right. So we're having a conversation and I'm I'm half a smarter I am, and all thought of tomorrow has fallen away and then maybe I'm blacked out. So I can't remember anything: people forget being black out drunk is not the same as being passed out. I can. I can walk. Talk and communicate and tell jokes and waved my hands, and here is just than forming no memories so think about to people. You are a boy whose, like eighteen, o, fuller hormones. What does he want at a party? Absolutely, we know what he wants at a party, whereas he's trying to negotiate that with a woman and

who knows what his? What he's is he if she's trying to Gaza the woman whose all so black out drunk yeah? So if she says no get away from me, he doesn't remember it right or care or care, or for that matter, yet cause he's not thinking about the consequences of tomorrow, also not reading any of the signals that reality not reading any other signals. This is interesting to me because when I was thinking you know, this is certainly not an excuse is just an explanation. Is exactly right, not an excuse. It's it's an exploration, so I was thinking that in many of these cases, when people been blackout drunk and people like, of course, you should remember. Of course you should know. Of course you did that

Perhaps they don't in the Stamford rape case, one other heartbreaking things is Jane, DOE, the victim. Her last memory is at midnight before she'd, even met or assailant, and her next memory is waking up in hospital and not knowing. Why she's there all gone right, and I think that that sort of what made that makes our case extraordinarily poignant. He's so interesting to that when surveys were done and students are asked, what could we do to deter some of the sexual assaults on campus people talk about everything other than drinking which I dont understand? I don't know, How we got to this position where trick Education is gonna, make a different. Actually, I think it's gonna make people stand up and look at things in a different kind of way. Which to some soul to some questions you make sure. Ok, what is a piece of wisdom? You wish the leaders of the world. Would you

in their decision making it's ok to be wrong. Just it's fine just say I I blew it, but this trying to get a better way is there's something about the times were living in now that that's harder more far more difficult than ever more challenging than ever. Do you think people say that there's something about the media culture may be but I dont think you're. The minute you get outside of New York, city and washing DC people aren't unforgiving. Paypal is waiting for one of their leaders to stand up and say I'm sorry, I screwed up how me do this better than just waiting for it. I don't think they would reject that'll, get angry or it just has to be said, with a certain amount of grace and humility. I think there is much appetite for longing for humility in our leaders today it has ever been and forgiveness. Ten forgiveness, I dont think this. I don't take this summer

has fundamentally changed in human nature, because people fund mentally, are always doing exactly what you say defaulting to the truth. They want to believe one took: that's why it's it's so difficult when people are shown the truth right before their eyes for them to actually acknowledge that it's actually happening What's? It must selfless thing you ve ever seen. Selfless felt selfless thing you ever witnessed first hand. Well, most is a kind of part of me is, whenever I talk to anyone? I know who's a young mother, and I figure out how many hours they sleep, yelled dissing did. Is there anything more selfless than that then waking up at their isn't? There executes her

maybe that's it. I came out of nowhere more selfless, then actually being a good mother or apparent that kind of that would be top Emilius. Do you not think of all the things that people have to do I used to about this all the time with my producers, terrors. One of them was five kids, so she's there in the office same amount of time, I am, I come home. I come home to three dogs. She goes home you step in the door there, five kids Who don't care that you had a whole day and what happened in their day, but you you have to be just as need to be for them and that mom, I don't know anything myself. Yes, I guess Bobby I'm others. What is the key June or the mystery that since in your mind, this question I thought I'd just for you that you huh to have answered in your lifetime, and I ask that question because you're on whose always uncovering mysteries for us? One question I have always wondered about is what

Is it mean to change someone's mind I am less than a sure of my ability to change people's minds. and I'm wondering. Is it because I'm doing things wrong. Is it because it's much more fun just to play to the people who are right? already in agreement with you am I narrowing myself and just speaking too much to the, but may I say just reading this book, I dont of my mind was chow. but it certainly was opened and I'm going go and read it again, because it's done that thing that you most want to do is to get people to think link about something and what I'm always searching for in my conversations with people. Is that moment where you can get there, Or the audience to think I never thought of it that way before, and this is filled with that on in every chapter

yeah. But you are an unusually open minded person right. usually open growing, but am openly idea. So my question is: I had this incredibly interesting conversation with a Jesuit priests named James Martin, who one of his causes is. Can I get my church to accept gay people? Is there a way for me and not accept in the sense of using think you can get the Pope to change, to write, but just to erase all of the people in that area, embrace them treat them as As they would treat any on a human being or any other catholic, and I was fascinated to talk to him about so he's grappling with this problem. Can I change? Can I change someone's mind who's not inclined to change their mind? Is there a way for me to deal with this issue with such sensitivity and intelligence and restraint

and humility that they will move from. I don't wanna talk about it to you know I will. I will happily in pray next to someone like this. On a Sunday morning, and then I was just so kind of far in awe of how he was approaching a question and unsure about how a whether I could ever figure and had an attack le taskmaster. Well, isn't it true, though, that you can never do it inside ray. I remember in all the years of the upper show that the way we got people to see things differently and even times to change their mind is not by doing for example, a show about gay people, but in court rating in the early years, gay people taking care of their children. Or gay people doing ordinary thing

that everyone else did and then you see oh gee they're, just like they're. Just like me. I think you have to have a sense of Oh, I see myself in this person that person just like me. they now, what does it mean to be gay because in so many other ways there just now I may ass. Well, you had the great benefits. This is a crucial in really interesting point, which is you had the benefit of time? Yes, so you took people on a journey that lasted twenty five yearly five years, and I think that that was the they started with your way way back when they came to trust you and slowly over time. I write you must have changed, but so if, but twenty five years is a long time Nobody is not. I remember me, a grocery store wants? Is why my favorite moments when a woman? me, and she said I've been watching you, I shall end it wasn't the first time you

because I didn't believe you she said, but it's because you have been consistent. She said you been consistent and I want you and every Can you talk about kids, who say: don't hit your kids or hit your kids and then you talk about Gail, don't get her kids. She said that I'm like how you going to have good kids. You don't get them so she said the last time I heard you talk. Your kids, I said I'm going try for one week since I went to weaken, I didn't hit my kid and then I went another we can. I didn't hit my kid and she said it's been three months and I haven't hit my kid and I have a different kid and I'm a different mother. So it's not one thing. It's the over time. You know you're saying you know. I think that is the right you don't that idea of introducing. Patients into the process is really crucial, though, like maybe we get, the trouble when we're just two. We think we can do these kinds of changes overnight and what we need to do is accept the fact that it's a twenty five year process. Yes, I read it

and then ended up calling you, because I wanted to have a conversation, and I feel that way, so passionately. Why experience something that changes. The way I see myself, see others, which I think is what this book is done. So I want people to read talking to strangers, because it's one of those experiences that will actually choose change the way you not just see strangers, it will change the way you the news it will change the way you experience all encounters with other people. There are you sent this off to your publisher and you have done the fine. Page and brought us all the way back around to saunter bland. Your deepest hope for the book was

That we would all acknowledge, are complicity in the death of Sandra Bland that that was in about a rogue cop in a stupid, do no small town and what have you it was about that we have institutionalized ways of dealing with strangers that make no sense. We have asked police officers required them, forced them push them to making judgments about people that shouldn't be made using it, maybe about some of what it looked like, but there was also so much more. There was so much where we have designed in the last part of the book is really about. How are these faulty ideas about dealing with strangers affected the way?

law enforcement system is designed, and the answer is all the things we talked about. Assumptions about transparency default to truth have fed in what is a match. What is in a match, FED into a philosophy of law and order which has had disastrous results? So you didn't, let us forget Sandro, Bland Nokia. That's not that's not ever forget her. Thank you. Good job I'm overwintering and you ve been distinct, supersede conversations the you can follow super so on. Instagram, twitter and Facebook, if you haven't yet go to apple broadcasts and subscribe rate and review of this point, join me next week for another supersonic conversation. Thank you for listening.