Looking to make your search bar cast sam Harris, just a note to say that if your hearing this, you are not currently honour, subscriber feed only be hearing the first part of this conversation in order to access full episodes of of making sense, podcast you'll need to subscribe. Sam Aristotle work. There you'll find a private rss feed to add to your favorite pod catcher, along with other subscriber, only content. We don't run ads on the past and therefore its made possible entirely through the support of our subscribers. So if you enjoy what we're doing here, please consider becoming ok well, my last podcast seems to have made the rounds. This was one.

Those audio s is essentially, I took the time to figure out exactly what I wanted to say my tended to a few of those a year. I think Most of them tend to be Pierre says, as that one was Invariably my wife onyx comes off the bench for these, because she is the best editor I know and this time was no exception- the episode titled right line between good and evil was considerably improved for her input. And I'm glad so many of you found it useful. I got an overwhelmingly positive response. I must say I heard from lots of interesting people. see and writers, and scientists, and just a great response and today's conversation is on the same topic: but here I am bringing any of all no harare who

All of you know he's been on the podcast. I think four times before and as a joke. At the end, we can never get to our topic of common interest. Meditate and the nature of mind, because they're always summit pressing things in the world to talk about evolves, A historian and a, famous public intellectual heroes, sapiens and medea S as well as other books. His books are in print in, I think, sixty five languages, which has Down in- and he also happens to be an israeli citizen, so I wanted to get his perspective on recent events. talk about what is like in israel now how people are making sense. Of the failure of the idea of october seventh. Netanyahu's contributions to the current crisis along those of the settlers in the west bank. We talk about the

extend geo political implications of the ground war in Gaza. How vulnerable? israel may or may not be a world opinion, the rise, global anti semitism these data, palestinian citizens in Israel and the glimmer of hope to be seen there. We talk about prospects of a two state solution. how israeli and american weakness remains, Market The lessons learned from the wars in afghanistan and Iraq, how we might avoid world war three while shoring up. the failing global order and other topics, As always, the way to support the podcast is to subscribe. sam harris stud orgy and I bring you, you have all Noah harare, the I am here with you all know harare. You of all thanks rejoined me. Thank you for inviting me so

they say, you're on Person who has a irrelevant point of view on the current crisis as in the middle east before jump andrew, remind people what you ve been for this done these many years, As a historian and a public intellectual, I try to focus on the big picture of history. You know trying to understand how, in a from africa, took over the I would end how now that there, the future the fate of, perhaps also or life, depends on our species. They try to understand the long term historical processes and the present moment arrive or I'm focused on their immediate historical disaster, folding all around me, I know from my line of work, but it's usually not a good thing to be,

in the middle of a big historical event that when history comes in Looking at your door, it's usually bad news and- and history just didn't just come, knocking at the door. It just broke the door year This is really the first moment since nine eleven, where the intruder history has been so star. Communists is, by definition a very provincial view of things, because obviously history, has been hammering people all the while in other countries, but do share it is that internet it and now punctuated your life, how many more It's like this. Have there been too many moments in recent years. It happened, the pandemic tap and raise the russian invasion of ukraine the russian invasion started on my birthday, the twenty fourth of february, and was like one of the worst days of my life.

I don't live in ukraine, I don t have relatives there, but I'm I heard the news. Of course I was falling very closely what was happening there and it really felt that histories taking a turn in the worst possible direction, and that we will feel the repercussions, all over the world- and I think, to a large extent what the war that started there. Is now reaching my house and if we Don't change the direction that the world is going, then this these these kinds of events, they'll kill. Knocking at the door of more and more people all over the world cannot put it very very simply. We had a far from imperfect, but nevertheless functional functioning global order and over there? ass few years. This order, has been undermined and destroyed, and when old

was destroyed? What you get is this order near and this type of this order and violence that we not experience here in Israel and in palestine. I'm afraid that we will see it in more and more people. Says all over the world I want to talk about that. I want to discuss just how fully the global liberal order has unravelled in recent years, and where all this money, He had it, but let let's start would be the more proximate problem some of the recent october seventh attacks in israel and name. They resulted ground war in Gaza Where were you wanna tell the seventh? That's what I wasn't in turkey on vacation it was really almost surreal too. here the news and see the images of began streaming from Israel when I'm on this kind of idyllic beach in turkey yeah and the aid it here

to very close to home. My uncle and aunt live in kibbutz bury, which is one of the community's it. been really obliterated by the Hamas terrorists, I've very good friends in another keyboarding for ferocity, which was also obliterated bought by the Hamas, so it it's really to be told extremely personal everything that has been happening. over the last few weeks. What were any of your friends or family killed taken hostage in the immediate circle. But the moment you step will you take one step outside the kind of immediate circle of friends and family, so many horrible stories about killing and kidnapping, but my aunt and uncle they- they were locked in their house, the hidden their house for hours at as the terrorists were rampaging around and and torturing and muscle

during their neighbours? I just met two friends who were hiding in there in the safe from inside their housing forgotten for other fora, thirty hours in getting the most high a book conditions and every day we keep hearing more and more stories about it. I mean it's, it's it's already clear that this day Is you know the worst day in the history of Israel since its foundation? It's already beyond just the story. It's already becoming a mythic moment that the people know that they they lived. They have been living inside a mythological moment that we don't know how people in the future will look back on it, but it is clear that it's going to be one of these. moments that people keep going back to an returning again and again for generations near neighbors no doubt of that

What what is it like in israel now I'd love to get your sense of the name, national mood and where People are in their gravel in short, an understanding of how this happened Well, you know what would I guess we're leaving take it any side, as you want, but I'm interested in what people make of the fish. The idea of what people make of how the the eyes of of Netanyahu's government might have contributed, to this problem. What does the feeling in this Can you give me a sense of just cut the political situation in its vote difficult to say? There is a mixture of so many different feelings. Any depends on who you talk to, but it's obvious that there is immense grief and pay. There is almost also immense rage. Its net anyhow ended his coalition, its clear to a lot of people,

that is the war immediate failures of the of the military, but this was the reason, out really of fourteen years of being ruled by a populist, strong men who divided the nation against itself and put his personal interests before the national interest you know pointing people to key positions on the basis of personal and political loyalties and not on the basis of competence, but seeing the serving elites of the country of being these deep state traitors the degree that the very word elite, which is supposed to be positive, people who are foremost in giving service to their country. In the military, in the universities in judicial system or wherever it became a pejorative term as if so something wrong with it, and I spent over the last year, you know trying to

undermine israeli democracy, and he was right again and again and again by people, the army in the intelligence that this is weakening Israel, very very dangerous moment and distracting all the country and the security forces from the main threats- and it simply ignored all these women, things, and now we are paying the price for it, I think this is a lesson that people all over the world should take to heart. Are that if you vote for populist stroman like that, then eventually that there comes a day when the entire nations, pay very, very poor, a high price for it. Here I think I could be free, even for hearing at pre spot on description of trump

your description Netanyahu, I wasn't aware of how, when a trump in figure Netanyahu was not having followed, is rarely politics as closely as I might have having. That, though, is one, though, is one big difference that Israel is, you know much more much weaker and more exposed than the united states there are the kinds of animal political experiments that people in other kind, reason. They have the luxury to to do to try that Israel just doesn't have this kind of off of buffer and it was extremely reckless and we are, as I said, we are now paying the price as for it is still unclear by the causality here. Is it that near who drew so much tension to his own medical needs and the divisiveness of that whole project, a shoring up his government that it was the distraction from the very real concerns of security, or was it

it sounds like you're saying it was that, but in addition it was also putting people. In the tower whore, who aren't or actually not competent, because they who exactly loyalists to his Essentially it's much broader than just the destruction. I mean what we ve seen since october. Seventh is of even more than a month after the euro, attack. Still many government departments are not functioning. Will civil society had to feel in for a lot of this functioning state agencies and government departments because of their of the policies that undermine these state institutions for years. Another thing that we were that we see is that Netanyahu based his career, I fought for years on on the idea that you cannot have any kind of peace process with the palestinians and he actually, and he said it openly, that he saw Hamas as a better partner of thoughts

Then the palestinian authority, because with Hamas there was no danger that there is going The any kind of peace process so openly. the body for years. That he's policy is too weaken the moderate forces in among the palestinians and strengthen Hamas, and this old blew up. You know face on the seventh of october and similarly because of pressure from within, coalition. If you look, for instance, at the way, the israeli running defence forces distributed that the Military units there were just about two battalions: I, the entire border with Gaza, whereas something like thirty two battalions world are settlements, including illegal outposts in the occupied territories which explains why, on the morning of the seventh of october, though, just weren't enough soldiers to protect

civilians in in cuba seem like, like the wonder of my aunt and uncle when all the soldiers are most of the soldiers were in the occupied territories? does it explain why it took so long for people to get to the south once the the crisis began. to unfold, I mean how? How long does that take the drive from the west bank to Gaza? I mean you know if you dry fast, you can get there in two hours or three hours, but you know to move a military unit is, is, is a bit more complicated than that the army got there, but just not in time. There's some asked dorothy they did a few hours in control of of these villages to simply go from house to house. and torture and murder and kidnap everybody. They found but it wasn't a story of more like eight hours or twelve hours or twenty hours in some cases, I'm I'm not.

european again within twenty hours. Definitely the army was there, but once commerce was in control of the villages, then you will to conduct and military racial here and you and you had thousands of commerce terrorist. Its wasn't just you know a few autumnal or twenty hundreds in some of the villages. So you had to conduct very difficult, open warfare house to house warfare by the army, when you also have is really civilians and and hostages there so that the army had to be extremely careful. So it takes time Can you tell me more about this is fairly? cynical game that that Netanyahu with the power indians with respect to encouraging the hamas the far more exciting them ruling party and also just at the support of the settlements as well a that that's also been provocative and decidedly unhelpful. When, if your goal were a two state solution, absolutely yeah, I didn't

Nothing else. The recent? Certainly this government, and also some of his previous governments or based on an alliance a political alliance with extremists who want indefinitely, went control of the west bank, so they so any chance of a peace process with the palestinians. As threats to their ambitions, which and basically, are you know coming from religious fanaticism here we also have our own messianic zealots and they They wanted full control of the territory far more than they wanted peace, and because of that they saw the moderate forces with in among palestinians as a potential danger. whereas Hamas, that you can count on Hamas not to initiate and not to agree to any kind of peace process, so for them from us. Looked like an almost ideal partner that you can they thought

you can let Hamas rule Gaza. Ok, you have some some occasional attacks and every euro two? You have a bigger military operation, but on the whole for fifteen years, they just let Hamas controlled Gaza turn it into a tour base and an islamic dictatorship, and no chance of any kind of a peace process. While, they deepen their control of the west bank, and this was all based on a completely mistaken view- that the situation can be contained, commerce will welcome. Continue to play by the rules. So what hence among Netanyahu's critics that he should step down now. And was the end and to what degree to people think that it is more important.

have the continuity of government now and to just wait until the the immediate needs of the war are in the past before dealing with the political fall out for his failure at because he's an extremely devices figure, the idea, an end and the thing you need most in the country right now is a unity, the aid he'll thing would have been for him to take responsibility for the catastrophe in step down. And you can do that in the middle of the war in our chamber, lane step down and let showed your random replace him in the middle of the war, one of the worst moments of crisis in the second world war. If he thinks this is impossible, but he can't do it, he could still have said. I take responsibility for the catastrophe. I will step down once the situation permits it, I'm declaring elections in six months and I will not be running to these elections, so you can trust me now that, no matter what

What I did in the past now. I am fully committed only to the interest of the israeli nation and when this is over I'm stepping down. This is the end political career. So you can trust me and hid it. It is not doing it. Just the opposite tries constantly to shift the blame to other people, especially in the military and eat. in the protest movement, and there is no indication that he is going to step down out accordingly election or to take responsibility in himself. You mentioned Protest movement with this was in response to the attempted traditional coup prior to october. Seventh, yapping what we dealt with before, which now looks like ancient history, but it was just a few. A few months ago, wasn't attend by then Netanyahu coalition to not just change the judicial system and neutralize the supreme court. It was an attempt to take unlimited power to their own hands.

In Israel, we don t have a constitution, we don t have any upper house in parliament or anything like that. The only institution that could limit the pie- or offer governing coalition was the supreme court and they tried to neutralize all to take over the supreme court, which would have with them unlimited power to do anything they want to. Rigged the election to disenfranchise I say: arab israelis, whatever you name it, they could do it. with a minimal majority in these really parliament For months you had the biggest protest movement in israeli history, with hundreds of thousands of people going week after week after week to protests in the months nations to stop that and when the war erupted, I think we're remarkable happened that, while the government many government agencies were completely paralysed. The protest movement turned

in two are the mainstay of much of the military effort from going to the south, to the area around the Gaza strip, to help people and look for survivors two organizing, you know places of refuge for israelis, Israel now has more than it huh with thousand refugees internal refugees. People who fled the border areas and losses homes or had to leave their homes, and somebody needs to take care of them in the gulf That is not doing a very good job. So as a protest movement stepped in, So many these protesters were people who say that the reserve, as they wouldn't respond to the call in protest? and then, after a sober seventh, everyone just put their political differences on ice and and responded. Incorrect option I'm gonna and even before them in it, it's not as if the people in the protest movement said they will not respond to a call. They said if there is,

a war. We will respond, of course, but at the situation that existed back then they said we are not willing at the present moment to take orders. from a government that is trying to assume dictatorial powers. What what is the view of his back Recent polls that you might recall on this issue- we rely on intuition here. But what? What is the current, aid of public opinion around these settlers in the west bank and end the legacy an additional questions at all, what percentage of settlers do you think are actually religious extremists and what a water people just looking for bland and what? What? What? What is the picture of that movement? and then our patience is therefore in israeli society. It seems that that

only a minority, I dont know how small, but I may minority out these religious extremists. Most people got therefore for different reasons and also most of the settlements are very close to the pre. Ninety six sixty seven border. So in a potential future peace treaty based on a two state solutions. They should not be any possible barrier to peace, but you do have this more extreme. Groups ah well out of this, see. I make conviction, I'm not interested in peace at all they they'll dreaming about rebuilding the temple in Jerusalem and and things like that and in many cases intentionally undermined relations between israelis and palestinians and try to do that, the utmost to foil any chance fought for future peace Why are these have done previous pipe

ass on the contribution, as I see it, of religious extremism to this problem on both sides. Obviously far more focus on the problem of jihadism, both locally to Israel and then globally. I guess I I interested in getting you sensitive. How? Honourable Israel is to public opinion internationally. At this point to the ground war has started. It has been a catastrophe as of a sort that everyone would have expected and, and certainly Hamas expected and even wanted emanate. I've done there ass, to ensure that it would be a catastrophe, and I think many people wonder and am among these people that may wonder whether there was another way for Israel to have gone about destroying Hamas. It would not have entailed seemingly doing exam What hamas wanted witches create a you know, intense amount of civilian injury and death in the process.

try it on route them out. So what's your view of the ground war just as a concept and as it is- folded in recent weeks, the icon We commend on on what are what what the best operational plans to do this or that I'm not an expert on that. What I can say is that anyone who is interested in peace should also be in favour of this arming Hamas and I'm not sure what is the best way to do it, but without disarming hamas there is not, going to be any peace in the region. What people need to realise that the immediate background to the horrific attack of the seventh of october, that with that? is that we were very, very close to a historical peace deal, he's run in saudi arabia were in an advanced stage of stage of negotiations mediated by that I'd states, and according to many credible sources, maybe we're just weeks away from signing

Israeli saw the treaty which should not just normal relations between Israel. and maybe the most important arab state, but also opened the door Normalized relations with much of the rest of the arab world as part of this treaty is well, was also supposed to make significant concessions to the palestinians, and it was hoped that it would be also possible to restart their is relevant justinian in peace process. You have on your voice when I ask you about that pointed cause. That's a point I hadn't heard it often described that that this he's treaty with the saudis, was since of Israel simply moving on in complete disregard of the palestinian situation, and that Hamas could have been expected to have have wanted to block that, but you're saying that there was there were concessions to the palestinians built into that those negotiations. Absolutely because it

if a dependent on the extremists in Netanyahu's government that no, you would not have any concessions to the palestinians, but of course the treaty was, will shaded not just by these extremists, it was very clear not just from the south side, but also for the button administration that the to be no treaty? Unless it includes significant concessions to the palestinians. The tourist supposed to alleviate, at least to some degree, immediately the suffering of palestinians in the occupied territories and reopen the that there that the peace process- and though there was a lot of talk that that anyone would have probably to ditch he's more extreme. allies in the coalition in order to secure this treaty, but this was too big a prize if this happened, this would have been Netanyahu's crowning achievement of his entire career. So

Again, we don't know because Hamas intervened, that the possibility of these peace treaty was a deadly threat both to Hamas and also to iran. Hamas has sponsor of the immediate aim of the attack was to foil to derail this chance for peace, and the long term aim was to prevent any restart any chance for an israeli palestinian, these even in the future, and this is why this is the first time this is happening.

I mean the Hamas, since its very foundation, opposed any peace process between Israel and the palestinians, and every time there was a significant advance in the direction of peace. Hamas intervened in order to stop it, so if we want to have some chance of peace in the future, we have to disarm Hamas. Of course simultaneously. We also have to give the palestinians a different future to give them of the puzzle billowy that they can see that if they choose a different path, they could live dignified lives in their homeland, and this should be, I think, Israel's war to go back to the saudi peace treaty and to restart the peace process with the palestinians. Now is the

round the tec in the way it is conducted right now. Is this the ideal way to disarm Hamas, and I just don't know that that is beyond my expertise, but without some kind of military measures? Obviously Hamas is not going to disarm voluntarily maybe I'll eta. Something from you know that the bigger historical perspective of what we are dealing with here, if you look for you, know it at that decades of of this conflict, you seen three big anomalies which are intertwined with one another and which make this conflict so complicated, I'm in at one and the same time you have the anomalous situation of Israel, which is why the only countries in the world which, even though it in

nationally recognised most of its neighbours, never recognises its its right to exist. The most countries take their existence for granted. Israel doesn't. it's very right to exist. Forget about the exact borders, the very right of this country to exist has been denied for the moment. It was created, by most of its neighbours, Then you have another anomaly, which is the situation in the occupied territories, which one of the only inhabited places in the world which no country can serenity over this makes the conflict very different from let's say, what's happening in kashmir, between india and Pakistan, though you have a piece of territory that two countries claims to over in the occupied territories

There is really Israel, never a next, the occupied territories. Formerly he doesn't claim that these territories, mine it once below long to Jordan. But Jordan renounced it. There is no palestinian state, so it's real one of the maybe the only inhabited place in the world that no country claims as its own and then you have the third big anomaly, which is the situation of eternal refugees. They do not from all the tens of millions of refugees that were created that exist in the world into knocking forties only the policy- Yes I'll still here and not because the other refugees returned to their homes from which they were expelled. they were absorbed and resettled in work which ever countries or territories there they they they reached and what people often don't realize is the are Joyce refugees after nineteen forty eight revenge

muslim refugees because our countries like each like syria, like here men like Iraq, our responded to the native The eight war by expelling jewish communities that lived there. Four hundred, sometimes thousands of here and most jews in Israel. They are not. What do you know this this? This fantasy of awful colonialists from europe does not even a from Europe most israel, is most israeli, jews are indigenous middle eastern people were expelled, refugees after nineteen forty eight so you have these three anomalies of that. Israel has the right to exist, and these are not recognized that the occupied territories, no country crazed veracity over them and this perpetual status of the palestinian refugees

Ideally, you could solve all these three anomalies at one stroke, which is what the two state solution was always meant to to achieve, that you get recognition for the israeli israel's right to existence that you get a palestinian state in the occupied territories and that you solve the refugee problem by some of them coming back to this new palestinian state and so of them getting citizenship mean countries like lebanon, the boy they lived for fulfil now for generations, whether we can reach these solution or not. That's that's a very big question, yeah, and even that would be too that best case scenario, which I want to ask you if you can see a path towards it, but even that would be to enshrine the very anomalies you ve just described me. Is there another case of a country. There was a time on all sides and one

a defensive war, in fact too defensive wars and the the security buffer claimed in though, in those successful acts of self defence was then perpetually denied them as your a they were treated they're, basically treated as aggressors, even when they were, or you know, fighting defensively and victoriously am. Is there another historical example of that? If they'd simply give back the west. bank and gaza return to the pre, sixty seven borders its own like they're not allowed to win a war of self defence. A matter I dunno are there other examples of that kind of thing. I'm not sure I mean again or as a story, and I intend to do to be cautious about drawing historical analogies What what I can say that, from a broader perspective, is that in most ethnic conflicts around the world. Both sides tend to be victims and perpetrators. at the same time- and this is a very simple and banal effect- that for some

recent most people seem incapable of grasping that its very very simple. You can be a victim and perpetrator at one and the same time here, and so many people just refuse to accept this simple fact of history. and in thinking, binary terms that I signed must be a hundred percent evil and one side must be one hundred percent pure and just- and we just need to find time to pick that to pick aside- and this, of course links to these fantasies of perfect justice of absolute justice, which are this I can say We certainly perspective there always destructive the idea that you can achieve absolute justice in this world. Usually or almost always leads to destructive places too

more violence and war, because no peace treaty in the history of the world provided absolute justice. All peace treaties are based, on compromise some, but you have to give up something you want to get absolute justice. The way you understand it. There are examples of a royal, nearly miraculous examples of found, injustice rectified through violence that Lee two peace and reconciliation, and even friendship that would have seemed impossible me just look at the aftermath of war or to let me we We the allies, dealt with nazis and the japanese in harshest conceivable way killing civilians by the the hundreds of thousands, necessity that you certainly can be debated, but you and me we lit with dropped to atomic bombs on japan and

rebuild those societies and found in them endured in friendships and is even and even the israelis you know in the jew, the juice of Israel and the Jews elsewhere, germany now as a totally benign or being a better than benign influence in the world that seat. That kind of future seems impossible. We the respect to Israel and the palestinians, and it it really it shouldn't be, but the one wrinkle, that united I think you know I focus on a lot is the role that islamic extremism- yes, passive. Lady jihadism and the doctrines of martyrdom play here and it's it just in terms of the country, the ratchet of ideology and and trade and destructive the destructive power of ideas. It is a kind of fun an old turn to that dialogue. legal machinery which strikes me as

worse than basically anything else that the the human mind, has produced, and once you get a true other worldliness, a true expectation of paradise, seems to me that all all rational negotiation about the state of the world and any terrestrial demand that any group might make upon it. All that goes out the window and you just have a death cult, one anomaly I see here is that you, dealing with a group like Hamas, which, as you know they are simply not as extreme as the islamic state, but extreme enough to be a death call the logic that most people too to delay over this current conflict simply doesn't work so most people think in terms of cycles of violence right that day and the point you just made. Certainly stands at. You know you can be both a victim and perpetrator. So you're a victim I defend yourself rationally and yet, of course, you're gonna created casualties

and a collateral damage and kill children on the other side and when you do that, you are going to make nearly permanent enemies of that population and the cycle of violence will continue. Yes we have that horrible dynamic, also going, but in addition to we have people who syn We do not care about the deaths of non combatants, in fact that's part of the plan and in fact, their own deaths. are also expected and part of the plan. because martyrdom is sincerely believed in and just wondering what you I think. I think you would certainly agree that that level of extreme religious extremism is is unhelpful, but I'm ok Imagined egg is the only ray of hope I see here and browsing gimme some perspective on this- is that there is a power. west indian population. Inside of Israel. There, palestinian citizens of Israel presume nobly. Most of them have nearly all of them are

integrated into the society such that you can see a possibility with jews and the palestinians live in peace in the same region. Debt gimme. Some sense of your optimist and pessimism about this whole gushed, all okay. So a lot of things to say, first of all, on one october, seventh, hamas murder than kidnapped, not only jewish israeli, also muslim israelis among the victims have been a significant number of muslims who are murdered by Hamas like an ambulance driver who try to rescue people, and just just just bedwin lions who live near by and rushed to the place, to try and save people and were murdered by Hamas. There are a couple of muslim israelis not right now in Gaza, by Hamas and their war, what we saw was universally

If a of these really nation, in the face of this atrocity, lots of people feared Some people on the israeli right claimed We will now see an uprising of arab israelis against the israeli state. The exact opposite happened. that there has been almost no incidents of physical violence? are these israelis you'd in instead you so people, volunteering and helping to displaced communities in hospitals in so many places, if you want really to speak with somebody what I think is one of the most hopeful leaders on the scene. I warmly recommend you speak with my bus months or a bus is the leader of an islamist party here in Israel who,

as a member of the short lived previous government, the bennet lobbied government, I think it's the only case when An islamist party was a member of a democratic government in a western democracy and- and it worked well he's very moderate leader. He made some of that sanest pronouncements, that I've heard in recent weeks from almost We want anybody in the world about about the conflict, and if we have more people like missouri bus, I I think there is hope is often called the Davis person in the Middle EAST. Imagine his he has his own security concerns. What is it? the number one target here of a lot of people here, I've talked with him. If I don't I dunno there, anyone on your side could help connect me with him, but I would love to speak with him and I will be happy to offer it to connect with

not extreme is that I fully agree with you that religious extremism I mean, if you want, but the one that the one at the biggest reason for that who run the cycle of violence in my region of the world is religious extremism, but as a story- and I would say that extremism of any kind is- is dangerous and what the twentieth century showed us that not only power dies in some other world can leads to motorists. Extremism Paradise on earth has the one imagined by marxists and stalinists has equal. dangerous potential. I never understood how marxists think about what happens to you after you die and what's the point of dying for the revolution, if you're dead and you can't witness the revolution, so you would think they would be less extreme, then the jihadists. But if you look at the history of the twentieth century,

in you know places like that. There is a soviet union, then that they give them a hard fight. I would say that did so. The jihad is doing in terms of what they are willing to do and in terms of hope and and and injustice, and in what we talked earlier about knocking forty five and the. of the second world war to the end of the second world war did not bring up civil justice if you think, for instance, about the fate of poland. So in many ways the second world war it is in europe, started over poland, protecting poland from nazi totalitarianism, and it ended with the allies giving control of poland to soviet totalitarianism, because they really had no choice and looking back most people, maybe not in poland. but certainly in britain, with the- u s would say. Yes, this was the better option than to go to the third world. Always the soviets immediately over the fate of poland in eastern europe, but

There is. I mentioned poland, because there is a very hopeful story that most people don't know because in history very often the hopeful stories get lost because, They dont generate a lot of violence and bloodshed and death. So you don't hear about it. You're not one The soviet bloc eventually collapsed in the late These early nineties, everybody heard of the war in yugoslavia and the impression of many people, is that this was just inevitable because of the age old, ethnic hatreds and conflicts in in the balkans, and people explained to you about how cross and serbs killed each other.

In the nineteen fortys and then when, when communism broke down, this frozen conflict was d frozen and they continue to killing each other. But people don't talk about. Is the conflict between pose lithuanians and ukrainians in the nineteen forties war, ethnic cleansing and hundreds of thousands of people murdered tortured, expelled from their homes. in mutual conflict between pause, lithuanians and ukrainians and the arrangements at the end of the second world war. They took many territories which previously belong to poland and gave them to lithuania, the city of Vilnius, vilnius, which is the capital of list. What lithuania was part of poland, twas, a polish city, to some extent before the war and in ukraine. You had the same thing with all the turret,

We are on a levy or live off now not of people expected that the end of the cold war, the conflict between poland, lithuania poles in lithuanians and ukrainians will also be the frozen. and you would have this wave of wars as poland. Try to reclaims vilnius and levies and and everybody goes back to the terrible memories from the nineteen forties any didn't happen. The polish government had a very conscious policy. It wasn't an accident, it was a conscious policy They came to the governments of lithuania and and ukraine and to the people to the nations themselves, and they told them we don't want to go back to the past. The past is gone, is done it's over we'll focus on the future. We do not want to vilnius back it's yours, it's the carpet of lithuania. We do now,

twond levine, laval back it's part of ukraine? That's over. We want to be good friends with you anymore, worked and when you look at the conflict now in ukraine, and despite some hiccups, the poland and the polish people have been maybe the greatest support one of the grey. supporters of ukraine receiving millions of ukrainian are refugees and in the nineteen forties, this would have sounded unthinkable near, and this was a choice, and I think this is a choice in every ethnic conflict, whether you look to the past or you look to the future and I will say one more thing about it. As historian. I think the curse of history is the attempt to correct the past to save the past. If we could only go back to the past and save these people, and we can't we can't go back to the past and save the people were massacred on the seventh of october.

rail or go back to the holocaust and set no it's impossible, and we can't go back to the past and try to do a different narrative, the israeli palestinian conflict, what we need to do is stop using the injuries of the past as an excuse, for fresh injuries in the present then instead think constructively about how we can heal the injuries and create peace which will not give absolute justice to anybody when create a better future for everybody. Well, what one of the reasons why so untenable, too Continue trying to rectify this As you know, by your description, every group has a partial, but none the less accurate picture of the past, where and are the victim, and the other group is the perpetrator

and although it is impossible to reconcile those two visions, because their mutually cancelling at its should? Theoretically, if in post, but you know this is what is known as theory of mind, went beyond the age of I'm not sure which age but beyond a certain age or people should have the capacity to go. into the mind of another person and under stand that she or he or him. They see reality from a different perspective than me. And this is the basis for all social relations, but an unfair, in italy. There are many cases like the current conflict when theory of mind breaks down and it becomes almost impossible. Psychological for people to realise that others see reality differently than us to give you re, glimpses of my theory of mind, then- and this is how I dissect out the layer of religious extremism of the islamic sort.

that is riding over this entire catastrophe. I'm so, for instance, the israelis have very little leverage with respect to Hamas, now emanate. It seems at mom doesn't care in fact wants them to bomb indiscriminately and kill lots of civilians. Isn't that works for their propaganda purposes, they actually do have leverage I described this idea in no way endorsing it. Annual he'll see why in a moment, but they have- building. They have the alex a mosque that everyone really claim to care about them. Hamas cares about at every jihadist organization on earth, cares about it, muslims everywhere care about it. Any group that could have left- rich with Hamas there, the iranians or any other by any other group, cares about it They could say: listen we all want much like this building that you care so much about. If you, returned the hostages in forty. Eight hours were going to demolish it,

Why does put it to you? What do you think would happen if they did that the third world war It's hicks exactly so, been literally, I would expect I think everyone would expect not not just it in a world war three or something quite like it, but they would expect buildings in london and paris to also burn right, This led the literally an uprising the world over of a sword dead. No one could pass simply contemplate, So what we have, what we're we're all exceeding to hear is a picture of the muslim community worldwide that is el combustible and its sole provoke, but on the basis of pure religious symbolism rise, not that they don't care when, when a sigh kills hundreds of thousands of their fellow muslims. They did a single protest over that they care. When were you when the saudis kill over a hundred

thousand people in yemen they really due care when the Jews start killing muslims as we see in Gaza, but they can. or even more about, religious symbols rather care about. cartoons of the prophet mohammed- that that's what causes embassies to burn a dozen cities, and if the israeli said, listen, we're so sick of killing your children, we're just gonna destroy this building, unless you give us our hostages back, that would be a of that would do return. There period in history here, so that is please leave insane and untenable status quo remedies, My view is that the muslim world has to figure out how to perform an exorcism on itself such that that is not the level of religious fanaticism. Generally speaking, in muslim community in a hundred countries were dealing with the christians of the fourteenth century. There's no the community that is combustible like this.

If you, if the israelis destroyed the church of the nativity there wouldn't be christian uprising the world over? and for good reason, because it as as sentimentalists people are about it. It is just a building. So from my point, viewed the underlying problem that we really have to deal with is theirs ambient level of religious fanaticism. That is, totally at odds with a pluralistic civilization in the twenty first century, and we have to figure out how how to release. that pressure, the operative sure of that ideology and the commitment to it. until we do that. That is always going to be casting a shadow over all of these kinds of moments. Yeah, I think, basically, what we can say is is: is it in history story matters that the the stories in people's minds are often the most powerful forces that shape history

we that shape politics and culture, and this is a large part of what it means to do. History is to listen to the stories that people tell them. No, you don't have if you'd like to continue listening to this conversation, you'll need to subscribe that sam harris doesn't work once you do, you'll get access to all full length. Episodes of the making sense podcast, along with other subscriber, only content, including bonus episodes and a amaze, and the conversations I've been having on the waking up app. The making sense podcast is ad free and relies entirely on listener support, and you can subscribe now at sam harris dot, org the.