The following is a conversation with barry bearish, a theoretical physicist at caltech and the winner of the nobel prize in physics for his contributions to the lie, go detector and the observation of gravitational waves. Why go or the laser interferometer gravitational wave observatory is probably the most precise measurement device ever built by humans. It consists of, two detectors, with four kilometer along vacuum chambers situated three thousand kilometers apart operating

unison to measure motion at his ten thousand times smaller than the width of a proton. It is the smallest measurement ever attempted by science, a measurement of gravitational waves caused by the most violent and cataclysmic events in the universe occurring over tens of millions of light years away to support this pie. Guess we share our sponsors in the description as usual. I do a few minutes ads now, no ads in the middle. I try to make his interesting. So hopefully you skip, but if you do, we still check out the the links in the the it is the best way to support the spot guest I use their stuff and enjoy it. Maybe you will to the show, is brought to you by mud water, a new spots, but I've been actually actually dragging their stuff for quite a long time. It's a coffee,

interpretive with one seventh, the caffeine as a cup of coffee and a ton of ingredients that are good for you, but I drink it because it's delicious, I use a frothy that comes with it and then I add a little bit of their mud, water creamer. That has mct oil in it and then just the final things at that. There's this creamy deliciousness to the whole thing that I just love it tastes like it's a treat. I could taste like dessert for my tastes, but it has no sugar or sneaky sweeteners added to it. So it's great for you, it tastes, amazing and if you're either, not a huge caffeine consumer or this

more for later on in the day, which is often when I drink it there now. This is perfect because it has less caffeine than a cup of coffee, so visit them at mud, water, that car slash, lex and use cold. Let's check out to get five dollars off. The show is also brought to you by give directly, frankly and incredible, sponsor. I think this is the first time in this package, but have been check him out for a long time, their idea, their implementation of that idea, is just brilliant. It's a nonprofit. Those who send money directly to people living in extreme poverty give directly donors include previous guess this very podcast, jack dorsey, you're mosque, metallic buren

Mc Caskey, computer singer, and one of the reasons I loved it, because it goes counter to the idea that many people believe that you can't just give money to poor people and trust them to know what to do with it. The fact is that hundreds of independent studies have shown direct giving can have positive impacts on health, nutrition, income, education and more. These studies show that giving cash unconditionally can more than double incomes, increase, cool enrollment and entrepreneurship, decrease, skipped meals, illness and depression and cut domestic violence by one third, it does not decrease hours worked or increase. Spending on temptations to back on again there's a spill over effect to our every one dollar, given amounts to two dollars, a sickly sense in the local economy, and even three years after the transfer

recipients still earning more and are better educated in the last decade give directly has delivered over. Four hundred million dollars to over nine hundred thousand recipients across nine countries. Visit them give directly dot, org, slash legs, and your first gift will be matched up to three hundred dollars. That's give directly dot org slash, lacks the next sponsor by optimizing the eye of the measures that have a new magnesium supplement when I fast I'm doing peter carnivore, sodium potassae magnesium are essential. This is something that I have read. A lot of people say, but is also something there personally experienced. I can just know when I'm not getting enough electrolytes Agnes him is the trick. You want to get right. That's why you magnesium breakthrough from by optimized

More supplements contain only one or two forest magnesium, like magnesium glass in it or magnesium citrate, when in reality, there are at least seven, the abiding needs and benefits from I've been working quite a bit recently Where, though, be long stretches of on focused work and what I found for me that dumb on purpose, sort of leaning away from man. Distract them myself with food and energy find in general. The process of fasting focuses my mind: relax as my mind and focus, is now really enjoy their, but then really have to make sure your bodies operating nutritionally at the best place for

at again, magnesium breakthrough from by optimizers is something that's been very useful for me: go to mag breakthrough dot com, slash legs for a special discount, that's mag, breakthrough dot com, slash lex! This show is also sponsored by forcing baddeck the maker of delicious mushroom, coffee and plant based protein. This is the I feel that I go to when I need the caffeine, especially in the morning. I I mentioned a few times. There's a ritual for me with coffee coffees been a big part of my life has been probably a big part of most people. was the ritual of it, even when their sleep schedules all over the place, even when I just pull crazy It is an crash and they all of these things I love, but if I go to it, it helps me focus the mind. A little bit is the cap

kick but a little bit is the the taste, the comfort of the entirety of the process that involves is delicious cos. In case you're wondering forcing matter, coffee does not is like mushrooms, I guess at it tastes delicious, get up to four. Percent off and free shipping and martial coffee bundles. If you go to forcing marriage dot com, slash lacks that's for submitting the calm. Slash lacks. This episode is also brought to you by the long time the delicious, sponsor mad explained low carb, gaeta friendly cereal. It has zero gravel sugar, thirteen to fourteen grams of protein, only for no grams of carbs and one hundred and forty calories in each serving you can build your box or get a variety pack with available flavors of cocoa fruity frosted.

butter, blueberry and cinnamon. I'm getting hungry just reading this flavors there also bringing back to flavors, cookies and cream and maple waffle and then bring them back permanently. He was limited run at first That immediately, so that bring back back magic spoon, heavy one hundred happiness guarantee. So if you don't like it, they refunded go to magics buddha car, flash works and use called legs had check out to say five dollars off. You order, that's magics, buddha com, slash flags and use code lacks. This is the worst friedman, podcast

and here is my conversation with very theirs. You- have mentioned that you're always curious about the physical world and that an early question you remember stood out. Will you ask your dad? Why does icefoot on water- and he could answer- and this is very suppressed into so you went on to learn. Why maybe could speak to what is the model questions in math and physics that are really sparked your curiosity memory is kind of something I used to illustrate to her. Something I think is common in science,

the people that do science somehow have maintained, maintain something that kid's always have smoke yet, eight years old or so so many questions, usually typically that you consider them pass. You turn to stop skin. So many questions, and somehow our system manages to kill then, and most people. So in school. We make people this study and do their things, but not too pesterin by asking too many questions- and I think not just myself, but I think it's typical of scientists like myself, that I have somehow escape that? Maybe we're still children, or maybe we some didn't get it beaten out of us, but I think it's I did.

In college level on this to me, and one of the biggest deficits is the lack of curiosity. If you want that, we'd beaten out of them, because I think it's an innate human quality, is there some advice. Rain says he give to how to keep the flame of think it's a problem of both parents in and the parents should be, should realise as a great quality. We have your curious, skirt and said we have? We have expressions like curiosity, killed the cat and and and the more but them in a basically it's not not thought to be a good thing. You get, it curiosity killed the cat, means if you're too curious you get in trouble and like hell you anyway. Maybe it's a good thing that to me needs to be solved really in education. In hopes, a realisation that their certain human qualities that we should try to build on.

Not destroy one of em. His curiosity anyway, back to me and curiosity, I wasted pests and asked a lot since my father generally could answer them and met that age the first one. I remember that he couldn't answer was not it. Very original question, but basically that the ice is made out of water, and so why does it float on water and he could answer it. and it may not have been, the first questions, the first one that I remember, and that was the first time. That I realized. To learn and answer your own curiosity or questions. There's various mechanisms. In this case it was going to librarian. or asking people who know more and so forth, but eventually you do. by what we call research, but but it sir.

Driven by if you're, hopefully, yes, good, questions. If he has good questions and you have the mechanisms to solve, and you do what I do in life- basically not necessarily physics but and its ray quality in humans and we should nurture. It did I remember, any other kind of in high school may be early college, more basic physics, ideas. That structure creates. Your mathematics, the sciences? I wasn't really into science until I get to college to be honest with you, but. Just staying with water for a minute, I remembered that I was curious why hey what happens to water, it rains and there's water in a wet pavement, and then the pavement tries out what happened to this water that came to I, I didn't know that much then eventually learn in chemistry or something water.

made out of hydrogen and oxygen. Those are both gases had heck. Does it make this substances this liquid? Yet? But so that has what state of matter uva, I know, perhaps lie gone, are the the thing for which you've gotten the nobel prize and the things much of your life work perhaps was a happy accident since in the early days, but is, is there a mamma? You looked up to the stars and also the same wandered about water wandered about some things it out there in the universe, oh yeah, I think everybody's looks It is in the and is curious about what what it is, and as I learned More, I learned, of course, that we don't very much about what's and the and the more we learn the more we know we don't know. We don't know what the majority of anything is out there. It's all

called dark matter of dark energy. That's one of the big questions twenty here when I was asleep and thus weren't question, so even no less. In a sense, the more we the more. We look. So, of course, I think that's one of the areas that almost universal people see the sky. They see the stars and they're beautiful and and see it looks different on different nights and it's a curiosity that we all have and what are some question, about the universe, the there in the same way that you felt about the ice that today, you mentioned to me I'll, find you cheating on a course on the frontiers of science frontiers of physics. What are some questions outside the ones will probably talk about that kind.

Yeah fit fill you with the egg, get your flame of curiosity up and the firing up yeah. You know Phil Yoder. Well, first, I'm a physicist, not an astronomer, so I mustn't physical, the physical phenomenon really so the questioner of dark matter and dark energy which we probably won't talk about our recent our recent learn last twenty thirty years. Certainly dark energy. Dark energy is a complete puzzle. It goes yes, what all will? What you will ask me about, which is generally- nativity and einstein's general relativity. It basically take something that he thought was what what he called a constant, which is, and now in the That's even the right theory and urged represents most of the universe.

And then we have something called dark matter and there good reason to believe it might be an exotic form of particles. and that is something I voice worked on on particle accelerators and so forth- and it's a big puzzle, whether it is it's a bit of a irish industry and that there's lots and lots of searches on, but it may be a little bit

if you're looking for a treasure under rocks or something you don't it's hard to have. We don't have really good guidance, except that we have very, very good information that is pervasive and it's there and that it's probably particles small, that the evidence is all of those things. But then the most logical solution doesn't seem to work, something called supersymmetry, and do you think the answer could be something very complicated? You know I like to hope that think that most things that appear complicated are actually simple. If you really understand them

I think we just don't know at the present time, and it is something that affects us. It does affect it affects how the stars go around each other and so forth, because we detect that there's missing gravity, but but it doesn't affect every day life at all. I tender thinkin expect, maybe and that the answers will be simple. We do haven't found it. Yet. Do you think those answers, my change? The way we see other forces gravity black cause. The way we see the parts, of the universe we do study, it is conceivable the black holes it. We found in our experiment in our worse I now it understand the origin of those is conceivable, but

doesnt doesn't seem the most likely that their promote primordial. That is, they were made at the beginning and take in that sense they could represent at least part of the dark matter. So there can be connection start I call Sarah, how many there are how much of the mass they encompass is still pretty primitive. We don't know so before I talk to you more about black holes. Let me take a step back to yeah. I was actually went to high school in chicago and will go to take care classes at fermi, lab watch, the buffalo and so on. So we ask about the you mentioned that enrico for me was somebody who was inspiring to you in a certain kind of way, and why is that? He speak to sure he was amazing, actually he's the last. This is not the real come to the recent minute, but there he had to begin flown find me at a young age here, but he was the only

The last physicist of note that was both an experimental physician theorist. At the same time. and he did to amazing things within months in nineteen. Thirty three. He would with region really know what the nucleus was. Would radioactive decay, was what baited a k wise when electrons come out of a new and in the near near the end of nineteen, thirty, three, he, the neutron had just been discovered meant that we knew of a bit more about what the nucleus is. That is made out of new transom protons, then found wasn't discovered until nineteen thirty two, and once we discovered that there were a new, an approach on and they made the nucleus and in their electrons ago, around the basic ingredients. Were there and

He wrote down not only just the theory, a theory but a theory that lasted decades, and is only been improved on about beta decay care. That is the ready radiation he did. This came out of nowhere and a fantastic. free. He submitted its nature magazine, which was the primary plight best placed to publish even then and they got rejected, has been to speculative, and so he went back to his son I'm bored and rome worry, was added some to it. Maybe even longer cause it's really a classic article n been published in the local italian journal, furthest and the german one at the same time in nineteen january nineteen thirty two julie, I'm curious. For the first time I saw,

fischer radio activity an important discovery, because radio activity have been discovered much earlier when they had x rays, and you shouldn't be using empathy. There is radioactive fifty people knew was useful for medicine, but radioactive. Materials are hard define, and so it wasn't prevalent. But if you could make them, then they had great, Send julio inquiry were able to bombard. aluminum or something with alpha particles and find that they excited something The decayed and gave decayed and gay had some half life, and so forth million was the artificial version. Artless not not unnatural version induced version of radioactive materials,

and fair me somehow had the inside. I still can't see where he got it That the right way to follow that up was not using charged particles like office and so forth, but use use these Newly discovered neutrons as the bombarding particle seemed possible, they barely had been seen. It was to get very many of them, but it had the advantage that down there not charge, so they go right into the to the nucleus and that turned out to be the experimental work that he did, that won him the nobel prize, and it was the first step in vision, discovery efficient and that he did this two completely different things: it an experiment that was a great idea

and tremendous implementation, because how do you get enough neutrons and then he learned quickly not all you want new transport, you aren't really slow once he learned that experimental and he had learned how to make slow once and then they were able to make go through the periodic table and make light sofa particles he missed and vision at the moment, but he had the basic information and and then vision follow soon after that. Forgive me for not nine, but what is the birth of the idea? starting with the neutrons is that is an experimental idea was born out of the experiment, used, observes something, or is this an einstein and their style idea. Were you going to make us think of the took a combination because he realized that neutrons had a characteristic that would allow them to go all the way into the nucleus,

when we didn't really understand what the? U know, what had with a structure was of on this, so that took an understanding, her recognition of the physics itself of how a neutron interacts compared to say an alpha particle that julie on curry, adduced then he had to invent away to Heaven if neutrons- and you know he had a team of associates and pay- and he pulled it off quite quickly, so you know it's pretty. Astounding And probably, maybe to speak to it as a ability to put together the engineering aspects of great experiments and doing the theory they probably fed each other. I wonder, can you speak to why we don't seem more of that? Is that just

difficult to do it's difficult to do ya. Think in both ferry and experiment in physics anyway was it was conceivable if you had an the right person, what a no one's been able to do it since so I had the dream that that was what I was going to be like for me, but the love boat size of it, the theory yeah yeah. I never like the idea that you did experiments without really understanding the theory or the theory should be related very closely to experiments. and so I have always done experimental work. That was closely related to the theoretical ideas. I think I told you I'm russian. Someone asked some romantic questions, but

It is a tragic to that is seen as the architect of the nuclear age that some of his creations led to potentially some of his work has has led to potentially still the destruction of the human species, some of the most destructive weapon yeah. Ah, I think, even more general than him. I I I give you all the virtues of curiosity a few minutes ago, there's an interesting book called the ratchet of curiosity. You know a ratchet something that goes in one direction and and that that is written by a guy who's, probably a sociologist or philosopher, or something, and he he picks on this particular problem, but other ones, and that is that the danger of knowledge, basically you're, you're curious. You learn something. So it's a little bit I curiosity killed the cat to be worried about whether you can handle new information that should get so in this case the new

information had to do with really understanding nuclear physics and that information? Maybe we didn't, have the sophistication to know how to keep it under control, in fair himself, was a very a political person, so he wasn't very driven by heart. You are at least, he appears in all of his writing. The writing of his wife. The interactions and others had with them is either avoid you just now are he was pretty eight Let a column. You just saw us the world through Kenneth, the lands of scientists, but The usual asked of its tragic, ah, the boy- It was tragic, certainly on japan and had a role in that. So I wouldn't want my legacy, for example a minute, but brought it to the human species that

the rapture of curiosity that we would do stuff just to see what happens that their curiosity. That day in reserve mire of artificial intelligence that have been a concern there come on a small scale and a silly scale. Perhaps currently, there's constantius unintended consequences. You create a system and you pull out there and you have intuitions about how it will work. You have hopes how it would work for you put it out there just to see what happens and that in most cases, because artificial tells us is currently not super powerful. It doesnt creator, large scale, negative effects, but that's an curiosity is a progressive, might lead to something that destroys the human species in the same may be true for bioengineering this people that, in our engineer, viruses to protect us from

this is to see you know how do I, how closes this mutating so can jump to humans or or going or engineering, now defences against those and is is exciting, and the application of positive applications are really exciting at this time, but we're dont think about how that runs away in decades to come. Yeah and I think it's the same idea as this little book, the ratchet of science. The wretched of curiosity am in whether you pursue take curiosity and that artificial intelligence or machine learning run away with having nets solutions to everyone are or we do it is, I think, a similar consequence. I think from what I read

about enrico fermi. He he became a little bit cynical about the human species. Tarzan was life both having observed he observed. We didn't write much and he died young. He died soon after work, the world war, There is already enough the work by tolerated if the hydrogen bombs- and I think he was little cynical of that- pushing had even further and rising mention speech in the soviet union in the? U s and a pike, an endless thank sir, but he didn't say very much by a little bit, as you said that yeah there's a few clubs. This sort of may be picked and a bad mood, but in in a sense that almost like a sadness and melancholy sadness to ah

I hope that waned a little bit about that. Perhaps we can do I go the site. This curious species can find a way out. Well, especially, I think people who worked like you did at los alamos since spent years of their life. somehow had convinced themselves that dropping his bombs would bring lasting peace and it didn't and that it didn't, as a small interesting aside, it'd be injured, interesting to hear. If you have opinions on this, his name is also attached to the fermi paradox which he asks. If there is a you know with former it's a very interesting question, which is If it does seem, if you should have reason, basically that there should be a lot of alien civilizations out there, if the human species earth is not that unique by basic, no matter the values you pick

slightly there's a lot of alien civilizations out there, and if that's the case, why, have they not least obviously visited us or sent us loud signals that every week in here fair misquoted, sang sitting down at lunch. I think it was worth teller and her bjork, who is kind of one of the fathers of the atomic bomb, and he sat down, and he says something like where are they here, which meant where these other and and then he did some numerous? Were he calculated? How many They knew about how many like Caesar are and how many stars and how many planets syn. Like the earthen bubba, that's been done much better by Somebody named drake, and so people usually refer to that. I dunno whether it's called the drake formula or something, but it has the same conclusion.

we is. It would be a miracle if there weren't other there's the there's. The statistics are so high. is how can we be singular and separate the that? So probably there is, but there's almost certainly life somewhere Maybe there was even life on mars, a while back, but ah intelligent life. Probably why were we so so you know the sisters say that communicating with us. I think that it's harder than people think. Ah, we might not know the right way to expect the communication, but all the communication that we know about travels at the speed of light in waiting, we don't we.

don't think anything go faster in the speed of light that limits the problem quite quite a bit and makes it difficult to have any and forth communication. You could send signals like we tried to or look for, but devotee communication is pretty hard when you it has to be close enough that the speed of light to would mean we could communicate with each other, and I think and we leave and understand that amendments were an advanced civilization We didn't even understand that. little more than a hundred years ago, you so Are we just started? That's enough. Maybe too knows something about the speed of light. Maybe there some other way to communicate the distant based on Extra magnetism. I don't I don't know

He seems to be also this have the same speed. That was a principle that einstein had and something we've measured. Actually so is. Is it possible I mean so we'll talk about gravitational waves and it in some sense there's a there's, a brainstorming going on which is like how do we detect the signal? I quote a signal look like and how would we detect and that's true for gravitational waves as true biscuit any physics phenomena you have to predict that that signal should exist. You have to have some kind of theory, a model. Why that signal crisis I mean, is it possible that aliens are communicating with us via gravity like why not for it? why are you here? It's true? Why not for us is very hard to detect these gravitational effects. They have to come from something

pretty that has allowed a gravity like black holes, but we're pretty primitive added at this stage. Ah, there's ah very reputable physicians and look for a fifth force when the we haven't found. Yet maybe it's the key, so you know it's both that law like what would a fifth force of physics look like exactly. Usually they think it's probably a long range for longer range force than we have now, but there reputable colleagues of mine that spend their life looking for a fifth force, so long arranged and gravity the now Super doesnt fall off like one over our squared, but maybe separately

yeah gravity newton taught us goes like inversely, one over the square of the distance apart. You are so at false, pretty fast as okay. So now we have a theory where consciousnesses is just the fifth force of physics. Yeah there we go. That's a good hypothesis, speaking of gravity of gravity, how what our gravitational waves ass may be. Stemmed from the basics, we learned gravity from newton right You were young. You are told that if you jumped up the earth podgy down and when the apple falls out of the tree, there is positive, and maybe you and ask your teacher- why but most of us accepted that that was Newton's picture, the apple falling out of the tree.

but Newton's theory, never told you why the apple was attracted to the earth was missing in newton's theory. newton siri, also newton I recognize to this one of the two problem solved. Tell you, one of them is there's more than those, but one is why desir, what's a mechanism which earth policy apple or holes, the moon when it goes around whatever it is. That's not explained by newton, even though he has the most successful theory of fish. Never went to address some years with nobody ever seeing violation, but he accurately describes the movement of object falling on earth, but he's not answering why that what's wrong no cause it's a distance. He gives a formula which in which it's a product of the earth's mass, the apple's mass inversely proportional to the square of the distance between and then the strength he called capital g.

The strength he couldn't determine, but it was determined a hundred years later, but no one saw a violation this until a possible? violation which I signed fixed, which was very small that has to do with mercury going around the sun, the orbit being sightless wrong. If he calculated by newton's theory, but so like most theories, then in physics, you can have a wonderful one. Might Newton's theory it isn't wrong, but you to have an improvement on it too. Sir things that is can't answer, and in this case einstein's theory is the next step. We don't know if it's anything like a final theory or even the only way to formulate it either, but he form this theory which were which he released at nineteen fifteen.

He took ten years to develop, but even though in nineteen o five, he solve three or four of the most important problems in physics are a matter of months and then he spent ten years on this problem before he left This call general relativity. It's a new theory of gravity. Nineteen, fifteen and nineteen. Sixteen Einstein wrote a little paper where he did not do some fancy derivation instead he's dead. We call it uses intuition, which he was very good at two. Ah And that is he noticed that if he form, if he wrote the formulas for jobs, activity in a particular way they looked up. like a formulas for electricity and magnetism. Einstein. He then took the leap that electricity magnetism. We

scared only twenty years before then and eighteen attain agencies have waves. Of course it's light and liked romania. Grace radio waves, everything else, so he said if the formulas look similar, then gravity probably has ways to this should big leap by the were emmy. Maybe you can correct me, but I just seems so seems like a heck of a leah and so that- and it was considered to be actually so first, that paper was except for this intuition was poorly written had had a serious mistake and had the fact a factor of wrong and the strength of gravity, which meant, if we use those formulas we would and Two years later, he wrote a second paper and in that paper it turns out to be important. For us,

Because in that paper he not only fixed his factor of two mistake which he never admitted he destroyed it, fixed it like yours And then he told us how you make gravitational waves, what what makes gravitational waves and you might recall electromagnetism we make electromagnetic waves in a simple way. You take a plus charge and minus charge. You oscillate like this makes electromagnetic waves and a physicist name hurts made a receiver. They could detect the waves and put it in the next room he saw them and move forward and backward and saw that it was wave like so. Ah Einstein said it won't be a dipole like that. It'll be a four pole thing and that's what it's called a quadrupole moment that gives the gravitational wave. So he saw that again by insight, not by derivation.

that's at the table for which an easy to do to do it. At the same time, in the same year, short child, not einstein, said there were things like the cop black holes. So it's interesting that came same sour year was that I voted in. It was in parallel, without they did that as I should. I should probably notice, but did I say, not have an intuition that there should be such things as black holes that came from schwarzschild, oh interesting, yeah so short child. Who is a german theoretical physics. He got killed in the war, I think in the first world war year, two years later, or so he's the one that proposed black holes, that there were black holes, the physic, a natural conclusion of general relativity know or that I may see I could but nobody natural conclusion. It is it's a result of curve space time, not right

but such a we're, resulting you may have noticed years- is the special fee as a special case here. So I don't know anyway, einstein then. The interesting part of the story is that einstein then left the problem most physicists, because it really was derived he just made this step didn't pick up or general relativity much because quantum mechanics became the thing in physics and einstein. Only picked up this problem again after immigration, the? U s, so he came to the? U s and nineteen thirty, two and I think in nineteen thirty, four five he was working, with another fiscal rosen who did several important works with and they revisit the question and they had a problem that most of us,

the students always had this study general relativity general activities really hard, because it's for dimensional and set a three dimensional and if you don't set it up right, you get infinities which don't belong there, the weak coordinate singularity is as a name but it. But if you get these infinities, you don't get the answers you want. An he was trying to derive now general relativity from general relativity gravitational waves in india, and yet he kept getting these infinities, and so he rode a paper with rosen that he submitted to our most important journal. Physical review letters. down. There, at when it was submitted to physical review letters. It was titled do

additional ways exist, a very funny title to write. Twenty years after you propose, they exist evidence because he had found these singularity cease. Infinities, and so the editor at that time and part, with that I dont know is peer review. We live in by peer review as scientists send our stuff out we're well know, win peer review actually started at what what period You Einstein ever experienced before this time, but the editor of physical review sent this out for review. He had a choice, she, you could take any article and except it he can reject it or he senate for easier. I believe that it is used to have much more power, yeah yeah, and he was a young man whose name was tate and he

it, has been for years, but so he sent this for review. I too, radical, physicists, name Robertson, who was also in this field of general relativity who happen to be, on sabbatical at that moment, Caltech otherwise the situation was Princeton where I saw was, and he saw that the way they set up the problem the infinities were like. I could make it as the student. Just if you don't enough. Brightened general relativity get these infinities. And so he reviewed the article on top gave an illustration that they set it up, Cylindrical coordinates, these infinities went away the editor of of,

for you, is obvious, intimidated by einstein. He wrote this really not not a letter back like I would get sand yo you screwed up in your paper. Instead, though, it was kind of You think of the comments of referenda. Einstein wrote back it's a well documented letter wrote back a letter to physical review sang up. I didn't send you the paper like this twenty or so called experts. I sentence you to publish I know I withdraw the paper and he never published again in that you're in that journal? That has nineteen thirty six? Instead, he rewrote it with the fixes that were made changed the title and public

in what was called the franklin review, which is the franklin institute in philadelphia, which is benjamin franklin institute which doesn't have a journal now, but did at that time. So the article is published it's the last same. He ever wrote about. It remains controversial. So it and until close to nineteen. Sixteen nineteen fifty eight, where there was a conference which brought their brought together the experts in general relativity to try to sort out whether there was sir on whether there It is true that there are gravitational waves are not, and we're very nice. Innovation by a british erased from the heart of the theory just gravitational waves, ah

that wisdom for one. The second thing that happened, that meeting is richard: feynman was there and fine and I said well, if there's a typical feynman, if there's gravitational waves, they'd need to be able to do something, otherwise they don't exist. So they have the ability to transfer energy. So he made her idea of a gedanken experiment that is just justa a bar with a cover rings on and then, if it, additional wave goes through. It distorts the bar and that creates friction on these little rings, and that's he and that's energies. that meant that a good idea, as sounds like a good yeah a means that he showed that with the distortion of space time you could transfer energy just by this little idea, and it was shown theoretically sought that point. It was built

theoretically, then by people, the gravitational waves should exist not and we should be able to detect them. We should be able to detect them, except, except that their very, very small. Just as a what kind of there's a bunch of questions about what kind of events would generate gravitational waves, you have to have disc what I call quadrupole moment that comes about. If I have ah four, for example, two objects that go around each they're like this, like the earth, or rather the earth around the sun and the moon around the earth, or in our case it turns out to be two black holes going around each other, like this house that different than basic oscillate back and forth, is just more common in eighty to aspiration is, is a dipole moment for has been three dimensional space I see after something to three dimensional that give what's, but what I called her quadruple moment that built into this, and luckily nature, have stuff out, and luckily things that exists, and it is

luckily, because the effect is so small that you could say look I can take a barbell and an spinet right and detect their govern, choice but, unfortunately, no matter how much I spin, how fast I saw everything it. So I know make gravitational waves, but there's a week I can't detect them so ethics, something that's stronger than I can make. Otherwise we will do what hurts did for electromagnetic waves. Go in our lab. Take a bar bell, put her on something spin, casket, dumb question, so a single object, as weirdly shaped. Does that generate gravitational waves of it's? If it's for rotating the Innovation is just much weaker says his wit its weaker. While we didn't know what the strong signal would be, that we would see we targeted

seen something called neutrons star sexually, because by calls we don't know very much about it turned out. We are a little bit lucky. There was a stronger source, which was the by calls while another, a dick s question so you say ways what is, what is a wave mean, my god, the most ridiculous version of that question is what does it feel like. To ride right away as you get closer to the source or experience it. Well, if you experience a wave, imagine that this is what happens to you. I don't know what you mean by getting close. It comes to you, so it's like a psycho, this lightweight or something comes through you. So when light ass, you may makes your eyes detected flashed it. What does this too? Is it's like going to the amusement park and they these mirrors you in this mirror and you look shorten fat and one next to you, may see tall and thin

Imagine that you went back and forth in those two mares once a second that would be abolition away for the period of once a second. if you didn't sixty times a second go back and forth in and then that's all that happens makes you taller and shorter and fat or back and forth as it goes through you at the frequency of the gravitational waves, so the frequencies that we detector higher than one second but the idea supper and this amount is small amount, the small, but when it, if your closer to the to the source of the wave, is it the same amount yeah? It's a dozen dissipate. It isn't this a bit.

I'll get us not their fun of an amusement right? Well, european, it does dissipate, but it doesn't it doesnt is its does, is proportional to the distance rights. Not does that sound a bit power russian gotcha so but it would be a fine ride it if you get along closer or a lot closer. I mean like I, I wonder what the he this is ridiculous question, but have you hear of like the getting fatter and taller me that experience for some reason that's mind blowing to me? He brings the distortion of spacetime to you. I mean space time is being morphed exists, is a ways right that how is so weird and were in space so yeah working in the space and article out

with the aid. Does it feel okay, and how much do you think about the philosophical implications of general relativity like that wherein space time and it can be bent by gravity like? Is that just what it is It was supposed to with this because, like newton, even newton is weird right by dailies egg makes sense. That's our physical world You know when an apple falls. It makes sense, but like the fact that entirety of the space time we're in can bend well, that's it That's really mine, boardman men, let me make another analogy: is: is a therapy session familiar our eye? Another analogy saw sir imagine you have a trampoline. Yes,

what happens if you put a marble on a trampoline, does it do anything right now, just saves a little bit, but not much yeah images of I drop it. It's not going to anywhere now, imagine I put a bowling ball at the center of the trampling. Now I come up to the chapel and I'd have put marble on what happens to reuters the obama alright. So what's happened is the presence of this massive object, distorted the space that the trampoline did. This is the same thing that happens to the presence of the earth

earth and the apple the presence of the earth affects the space around it. Just like the bowling ball on the trampling the this doesn't make me feel better. I'm affirm for the perspective an and walking round, and that trampling then some guy just drop the ball, and that not only drop the birth rate is not just dropping a bowling. Ball is making the boy go up and down. or do some kind of isolation thing where it's like waves and that's so fundamentally different from the experience on being on flat land and walking around and just finding delicious sweet things is and does, and just it just feels like to me from a human experience. Perspective completely is humbling, is truly humbling. It is something that we see that kind of phenomenon all the time in the media mistakes have merged,

immature woke up to a still pond. Yes, okay: now I throw it throw a rock in it. What happens with rocco's in sinks to the bottom? Fine, and these little ripples go out and they travel Oh that's exactly what happens, I mean there's a disturbance which is safe. The bowling ball are black holes. and then the ripples that go out in the water they're, not they don't have any. They don't have the rock and a part pieces of the rock see. The thing is, I guess: what's not disturbing about that, is it's a I miss it. I guess if a flat two dimensional? First, as being disturbed like for a three dimensional surface as three dimensional space to be disturbed, his weird, it's even worse, its four dimension, because this space and time So that's why you need einstein is to make it.

I will mention only now to make a further measure the same phenomenon and look at it in all of space and time anyway. Luckily, for you and I, What was the amount of distortion is incredibly small, so it turns out that if you think of space itself now this is going to blow your mind too, if you think of space as being like a material like this table. Ah, it's very stiff. Yet we have materials array, pliable materials that are very stiff. So space itself is very stiff, so and gravitational waves come through come luckily for us, it doesnt, distorted so much that it affects our ordinary life very much now one you that's great, that's great! I thought

something bad coming knows. No, not as I read news that solving that perhaps we evolved as life on earth do so he such debt for us this particular set of effects of gravitational waves. It's not that significant. Maybe maybe that's why you probably use this effect today or yesterday. Why suits is pervasive and well you mean gravity or the way, the external because I only curvature of space and curvature space. How I only care person is a human. the gravity of earth which I use it? every day, almost. Irving Now, listen this thing: every time it tells you where you are. How does that tell you where you are? It tells where you are because we have twenty four satellites or something

furthermore, going around in space in it ass how long it takes being so go to the satellite income accuracy two different once and that it triangulate and tells you where you are and then go down the road. It tells you where you are. Do you know that did that with the satellites and you didn't use einstein's equation I'll, know, mutiny. Why? Wouldn't you get the right answer. Yes right and in fact, if you take a road that say ten metres wide these numbers- and you ask how long you stay on the road? If you didn't make the correction for jobs relativity this thing? You're proposing is you're using every day, you'd gotham, neither are mirrored likes it I use it so so well prepared at work. I think I'm using an android or maybe and the gps doesn't work, though also maybe I'm using newton's physics. So I need to upgrade to general relativity and so

fuck opposition ways and einstein had to wait for it really does have a part in the story. We are one of the first kind of experimental, proper proposed What I have done, my liege did what what we called the darkening servant. That's a thought experience not a real experiment, but then, after that, then people believe gravitational waves, muscle you can kind of calculating how big they others, tiny and so people started searching. The first idea that was used was finance idea and then the arm variant of it and it was it a great big, huge bar of aluminum and then put around and assert its made like a cylinder and then put around it, some very, very sensitive detectors, so that if a gravitational waves happened to go through it, we got an you detect this extra strain. That was there.

that was this method that was used until we came along there. It was in a very good method to use and what was the so we're talking about a pretty weak signal here, yeah, that's why that method didn't work. So what can you tell the story of figuring out? What kind of method would be able to detect very weak signal gravitational ways. So remembering the remember, what happens in think when you go to the amusement park near that it's going to do something like stretch this way and squash that way squash this way and stretch this way, we do have an instrument that can detect that kind of thing is called an interferometer and what it does. Is it just

basically takes usually light and the two directions there we're talking about. You send light down one direction and the perpendicular direction and if nothing changes It takes the same and the arms of the same length. It just goes down bounces back and if you invert one compared to the other they castle. So there's nothing happens but if it's like the amusement park and one of the arms scott gosh, shorter and fatter. So I got took longer too well horizontally than did to go vertically then when they come that when, when the light comes back that comes back somewhat out of time and that basically the scheme. The only problem is that that's not a very done very accurately. In general, and we had to do it extremely accurate. So what what? What's the? What's, the difficulty of doing so accurately?

ok, so that the measurement that we have to do is destroyed. and in time. How big is it what it says, distortion this one? I intend to the twenty one as twenty one zeros and one ok now in this. So this is like a delay in the thing coming back, It's one of them coming back after the other one, but the difference is just one part intend to the twenty one, so for that reason we make a big, but let the arms belong case, when part intended the twenty one. In our case, kilometers long, so we have an instrument of climate. In one direction: kilometers in the others, lamas voltchok emma for glamour for kilometers in each direction. If you take, then one part intended the twins,

one for talking about measuring somethin, to attend to the minus eighteen metres, Let me tell you how small that is the proton, Thing were made up for that she can't go on grab so easily is ten to the minus fifteen meters. So this is, on one thousandth, the size of a proto. That's the fact size of. If Einstein himself didn't think this could be measure we ever seen. Actually he said that that's because hidden behind dissipate, modern lasers and then techniques that we developed. Ok. So maybe can you tell me a little bit. Will your frontiers lego, the laser interfere armor. Additionally, the observatory? What

Why go gauges elaborate kind of the big picture view here before ask specific questions about it: yeah in the same idea that I just said we have to. long vacuum pipes tended four kilometres long We start with a laser beam and we divide the beam going, the two arms. And we have a mere at the other end, reflects it back. It's more subtle, but reefs bring it back if there's no distortion in space time and the links are exactly the same, which recalibrate them to be there when it comes back if wages invert one signal compared to the other they'll just cancel, so we see nothing but if one arm gunnar but longer than the other than their own

back at exactly the same time. They run exactly council, that's what we measure so to give a number to it. We have to do that too. We have the change of length to be able to do this. Ten to the minus eighteen meters, to one part intend to the twelfth- and that was the big experimental challenge that I required a lot of innovation to be able to do so. What you gave a lot of credit to, I think, caltech and mit for some of the technical developments like within project. Is there some interesting things? You can speak to like the low level of some cool stuff that be solved. what what do we yeah? I'm a software engineer. So, okay, all of this, I was so much more respect for everything done here than anything I've ever done. So it's just Cosa was soda. So I'll give you an example of doing. Ah

mechanical engineering at a better at best they mechanical engineering and geology and may be at a level which, so what are we what's the problem? The problem is the following that I've, given you this picture of an instrument that, by some magic I can make good enough to measure this very short distance, but then I put it down here. It won't work it doesn't work, is that the earth is office moving all over the place all the time. Realizing seems pretty. Do you get it, but it's moving all the time so somehow it's me with so much that we can deal with it. We happen to be trying to do the experiment here on earth, but we can't deal with it, so we have to meet the instrument isolated from the earth? How now at the frequencies right, we ve got a flawed

that's a mechanical lesson: engineering problem, not as physics problem. So when you actually like we're doing we're having a conversation apart, gas right now, there's people, court, music work with this in a hot, a queen, icily room an easy, build a room within a room, but that's done isolated. In fact, they say it's impossible to truly isolate from sound from noises stuff like that, but that that that's like one step of millions the EU took as building aroma sat around you may have to I say all: This is actually an easier problem, as you said that you are really well so. Making a clean room is really tough pro. Because you have to fill a roman set a room here, I have to say this: this? This is really simple. Engineering are physics? Ok, so what do you have to do? How do you isolate yourself from the from the earth is first, we were

without looking at all frequencies, for gravitational waves were looking a particular frequencies that you can do with your on earth, so what're frequencies with those big You were just talking about frequencies. I mean we know by evolution bodies. Now it's the audio band, ok, The reason our ears work, where they work as s where the earth isn't going making too much noise. Okay. So what the reason our ears work. The way that worked is because this is where it's quiet, fest right. So, if you go to, if you go to one hurts instead of ten hurts it's the earth is moving around so so somehow we live in a week. audio. Bandits tens of hurts to thousands of hurts. That's where we live. That's where we live. Ok,

if we're going to do, an experiment on the earth might as well. Do it and it's the same frequency. That's where the earth is a quiet, so we have to work in that frequency, so we're not looking at all frequencies. Okay, so this sean further further shaking the earth to get rid of it is pretty monday. If we do the same thing that you do to make your car drive smoothly down the road. So what happens when your car goes over a bump early cars did that they bounced ok? But you feel that in your car so happened that energy? He can't just disappear energy. So we these things called shock absorbers in the car. What they do is they absorb. They take the thing that went like that and they basically can't get rid of the energy, but they moved to very, very low frequency. So what you feel isn't you feel like goes smoothly? Ok, I so.

We also work at this frequency. So if we, so we basically why why? Why do we have to do anything other than shock absorber? So we made the world's fancier shock absorbers, ok on not just, like in your car, where his one layer that they're just the right squishy essence since over there better than within the cars and have four layers of it, so whenever shakes gets through the first later, we treason second third world laws, so some mechanical engineering Probably ass, what I said so I set out does not we're tricks to it. My girl, chemistry tape, thing alone. I just whether right squishing see right through the right mature, cyprus and argue like this little springs, but their springs this spring,

So little generally, like shock absorbers yeah what, after a k- and this is now experimental physics it the edison limit- ok, see you do this and we make that worlds. Fancier shock absorbers, just mechanical engineering. Just mccaffrey Jesus hilarious, but we didn't asked we weren't good enough to discover gravitational waves so So we do another. We added another feature and is something else that you're aware probably have one and that to get rid of noise. You ve, probably noise, which is like and that the same principle this in these little bows airflow, scarcely noise cancelling so that so that had were they basically you on an airplane, and they sense

ambient noise from the engines and council, because this is the same over and over again I canceled and when the stewardess comes and ask you whether you want coffee and tea or drink or something you her fine cautious, not ambient, she's, the signal, so I will talk more active cancelling like or the active ancillae, so this is it ok, so another tommy, you have acted, can't thing on this year. as the shouts also we had this so inside this array of shock absorbers. We you asked for some interesting. This is off so inside this is harder than the the earphones problem. But as is engineering,

we have to see measure not just that the engine still made noise, but the earth is shaking is moving in some direction, so we have to actually tell not only that there's noise and cancel it, but what direction it's front? So we put this array of seismometers in this array of shock absorbers and measure thee residual motion and its direction, and we put little actuators pushed back against the council, So you have the actuators and you have the thing that is sensing, though the vibrations in it, and then you have the actual actuators that adjust for that and do so imperfect, synchrony yeah. What if it all works right and so

how much to reduce the shaking of the earth I mean and about one part intend to the twelfth one part. Instead, what gets through us is one part intended. The twelfth is as pretty re pig reduction. You don't need that in your car, but that's what we do. So that's how I slater. We are. When the earth- and that was the biggest stir- I say technical problem- our side of the physics instrument, the inner for madagascar. Oh that's! A weird question here, you you may get very poetically in humorously is saying is just a mechanical engineering problem, but Is this one of the biggest. precision making. Nicole engineering efforts ever this seems exceptionally difficult. It is so it took a long time and I think nobody seems to

challenge the statement that this is the most precision precise instrument it's been built like. I wonder where, like listen, what's happened I was on this thing cause it's so isolated. I mean this is like a. I dunno, no background, nope, no back, it's wow wow wow. There are so when you're first conceiving this an owl, probably a thousand knowledgeable enough kind of a laugh off the possibly this is even possible. Like how many people believe that this is possible, the jubilee all I did now that we need for sure

need is active when we started. We did this passive, but we were doing the tests to develop the active to add as the second stage which we ended up needing. Ah, but there was a lot of now now now there was a lot of skepticism that a lot of us, especially astronomers, were felt that money being wasted, as we were also expensive doing what I told you not cheap, so it was kind of controversy Those funded by the national science foundation accused link on this, just for a little longer than the actuator thing they act of cancelling it. Do you remember like little experiments, experiment done along the way to prove to the team terms, the decision possible, sir former, because I work with quite a bit of robots,

and to me the idea that you could do it. This precisely is humbling and embarrassing. Frankly, because I like this is another level of precision that I can't even because robots are mass, and this is basically one of the most precise robots ever Right so I got key: is there we have any like small scale, experiments that were done that we gave as is possible, yeah and larger scale. We made we made a test to chant. That also has to be in vacuum tube, but we made test chambers that had this system in it. Our first mock of this system, though so we could test it and optimize it and make it work. But it's just a mechanic

engineering, okay, ok humans are just a descendants. I gotcha gadget zuni video of this like bit some kind of education no purpose visualization of this act of cancelling. Ah, I don't think so. I m as the burmese. This does this live on well, so we worked for parts of it for the active cancelling. We worked with them for the instruments for the scent sensor and instruments. We worked with her a small company in maneuver. You are because who is our mit people? Let them there were isn't the problem because they thought they might be able to commercialize it for making staple tables to make microelectronics, for example, which are limited by the house stable the table his army. At this point, it's a little expensive He never never, never know others leah. So me

beyond the? Let me ask you just sticking out a little longer this a silly old mechanical engineering problem. I what was on to you kind of the darkest moment of what was the hardest stumbling block to over and engineers. I like was there any time where, without a doubt, whereas I am not sure would be able to do this- a kind of nearing challenge those hit. Dear mother, I like that. I think, though, one at that colleagues at mit re weiss worked so hard and was much more of a worry than this This is only a question if you do not do it well enough, you have to keep making a better somehow but This whole huge instrument has to be involved vacuum

and the vacuum tank sir. This big around and so is the world's biggest high vacuum system and, though, conceive how do you make it? of all how you make this four metres long, sealed vacuum system and asked me they don't four kilometres for kilometers thought when I say something else meter four kilometers long, big difference, yeah and so, but to make it yeah, we started with a roll of stainless steel and then we spiral roll it out like a spiral. So there's a spiral well bonnet. Ok, so the engineering was fine. We do that. We were through a very good companies and so forth to build it, but the big worry it was. What, if you develop a leak, This is a high vacuum, not just vacuum system. Typically,

near in a laboratory. If there's a leak, you put helium around the the thing you have. and then you detect worthy helium is coming in. But if you have something as big as is you can't surround it with me? and she might not actually even know that, there's a leak in him or be affecting well, we we have. We can measure the fact how good the vacuum at so we can know that there are weak in developing and then we don't. How do we fix it or how do we find it And so that you asked about of worry. That was always a really big worry. Ah, what's the nineteen a high vacuum and in a vacuum what what? What is high vacuum? That's like some adult of closed. vacuum is like some threshold. While there is a unit of high vacuum, is when the vacuum in the unit Sarah Hughes, richard tours, there's ten to the minus niger. Ah, then, there's

hi vacuum is usually used in small places. The biggest vacuum system period is at CERN in this big particle accelerator. But the high vacuum where they need really good vacuum, so particles don't scattering, is smaller than our sources have really large high vacuum system. I dunno this is so cool. I mean this is basically by far the greatest listening device ever built by humans. The fact that, like descendants of apes, could do this, evolution started with single cell organisms and he is, is there any more I'm a huge theories at yea, but like bridges? When I look at bridges from a civil engineer perspective, one of the most beautiful creations by human beings is physics you're using physics to construct objects that can support huge amount of mass, and this is structural, but it's also beautiful

humans can collaborate to create that throughout history, and then you take this on. Another level. This is like civics, exciting to beyond measure that humans can create something so precise, eight, but other concept lost in this. You just said you user took him a single cell if the realise this discovery that we made that everybody spot often happened. One point three billion years ago somewhere and the signal came down one point: three billion years ago, we were just converting on the earth from sin, seldom multi centre life. So when this actually happen this collision of two black holes. and here we weren't, even close to boil develop every single year we were had were going from singing Seldom multi so life at that point out to meet up with this this year, while the second

this almost romantic fit, it must do so on the human side of things. It's kind of fascinating is that you're talking about us over a thousand people team for life, so yeah I'll? They start out with the you know around one hundred were in you vote for parts of the time at least lead this team. What does it take to lead? A team like is of incredibly brilliant theoreticians and engineers, and just a lotta different parties involved. Lot of E goes out of ideas. You you had this fun it funny example fag where, where in publishing a paper, you have the all agree, and, like you know the phrasing of a certain sentence or the title of the paper, and so on. That's a very interesting sir

I'd love you to speak to that, but just in general, how? What does it take to lead this country? Okay, ah- and I think the the general idea- It is one we all now you want you want it. You wanna get where the the some of something as more than the individual parts is what we say right now. So that's what you're trying to achieve is how do you do that? Actually, mostly, if we take model all objects, are people. I mean you put him together. The sum is less yes. Why? Because it they overlap so you don't have individual thinks it. This person disasters that's it then the near get exactly the sun. but what you want is to develop where you get more than what the individual, divisions, are we not us very common people, use that expression everywhere and it's the expression that has to be

build into how people feel it's working, because if you're part of a team. And you realize that somehow the team is able to do more than the individual, you do themselves, then they buy on kind of in terms of the process of that's the that's. The goal that you have to have is too to achieve that, and that means that you have to realise parts of which are I can't do that, require not One person couldn't do it. It requires the combined talents to be able to do something that neither of them could do themselves and

We have a lot of that kind of thing and I think I mean building into the some of the examples that I gave you and so ah, how do you then? So so the key, almost in anything you do is the people themselves right. So in our case, the first and most Important was to attract to spend years of their life on this in the best possible people in the world to do it, so the only to convince semis that somehow it's better and more interesting for them than with they could do themselves, and so that's part of this idea should yet ass, powerful, but nevertheless there's busboy upon the world. There's ego. Is there something to be said about managing egos or well as human problems always the hardest and some others

that's an art, not a science. I think I think the fact here that combined there's a rosa, romantic goal that we had to do so they met. People had done before, which was an important scientifically and and huge challenge enabled us to say, take get me what we decide to dislike an example. We use the light to go on. This thing comes from lasers,. We need a certain kind of laser, so that kind of, either we use. There were three different. Institutions in the world that had the experts that do this, maybe in competition with each other. So we got all three to join together and work with us to work on this. As an example of that, you had

and they had the thing that their working together on a kind of object. They were the otherwise and were part of a bigger team were they could discover something that is, even engineers, caesar engineer said, do laser so and their part of our lasers citizen. Who could you describe the moment or the period of time when, finally, this incredible creation of human beings led to detection of gravitational waves, it's a long story. Unfortunately, this parted We started failures, resulting away. Kind of thing are: all failure sets off spilled into it. You get if you're, not a fanatic, ankle junior. You build on your failures. Expected, so we're trying things that no one stand before so technically, not just gravitational waves, and so it's bills on failures,

anyway, we did before they even then people dead r and d on the concepts, but starting in nice ninety four. We got money from the national science foundation to build this thing. It took about five years to build it so by ninety ninety nine. We had built the basic unit, it did not have. active seismic isolation. At that stage. Didn't have some other things that we have now we did at the beginning was ah stick to technologies that we had at least enough knowledge that we can make war. Or had tested in our own laboratories and so we put together the instrument. We made. It work didn't work very well, but it worked

We didn't see any gravitational waves than we figured out what limited us and we went through every year for her. almost ten years, never he gravitational waves. We would run it looking for gravitational waves for months learn what limit your does fix it for months then run it Eventually, we knew how to take another big step and that's wrong. We made several changes include going adding these active seismic isolation, which turned out to be a key and really fortunately got the national science foundation to give us another couple. Hundred million die there's two hundred million more and we rebuild it- are fixed, are improved and then in nine in twenty fifty,

we turned it on. and we are almost there only saw this first collision of two black holes. and then then we went through a process of do, we believe what we ve seen the attic, I think you're, one of the people I went to that process. The sounds like some for immediately believe that yeah and then your last ass humans leading us. We all have different reactions to us anything it. So, quite a few of my colleagues. a eureka moment. He immediately, I mean is that the amazing birth further, the figure that we that we put in our paper first is just data. If we didn't have to go through your fancy computer program, to do anything again and we show next to it. The calculations of signs. Equations looks just like the twelve we detect it

and we did in two different detectors halfway across the? U s, so it was pretty convincing. But ah, but you don't wanna, you don't want a full yourselves, We had a big scientists, we had a deal. May we had to go through and try to understand that the instrument itself, which was no, I said we had rebuild It- couldn't somehow generate things that look like this took some tests and then the second you'll appreciate more we had somehow this ourselves, we weren't act in some clever way. Cyber security question. even though we are not on the internet, the them, but you can be physical access to this. Has for saying this, so you would think about that. I mean not not enough it. I mean cause, it's it's a a a matches prediction

So the chances of it actually be manipulated, very, very low, but nevertheless, we still have disgruntled all graduate students who had worked with us earlier that why you you don't know how that's post embarrass you, I suppose yeah as ass. It was I see but but about what I think you said within a month you kind of convince shots of vision and a month we convinced ourselves, we kept a thousand collaborators quieter. Time. Then we spend another s funny month or so trained you're saying what we ve seen. I saw them, We could do the science with it instead of just putting it out to the world. Let somebody else understand that it was two black holes and when it was the fact that a thousand collaborators were quiet is a really strong indication that this is really close. Knit team and there are around the world either strong strong measures. Tight, ned horror had strongly.

taylor, ship or something up either fear robots, fear, loggia writing got back to Machiavelli This I mean It says your eyes really exciting that that was that that's a success story because it didn't have to be a success story right there I mean, eventually, perhaps you could say it'll be in a vex, but he could have taken it over a century to get oh yeah yeah. It sir and it's only downhill now is waiting- emu gravitational, where every year we as we ve now, we now about an hour off because the pandemic, but when turned off. We were seeing some sort of god national wave event each week now, we're fixing were fixing were adding features were it'll, probably be

We turned back on next year programme, every one every couple days and then all the same, so it's learning about what's out there in gravity instead of just optics. So it's all great, where only limited by. fantastic thing other than that. This is a great field in europe on new and so forth. Is there? experimental the great thing is the tour. limited by technology and technical limitations, not by science, so either the another it really important discovery that was made before was eyes called the higgs, the higgs bosun maiden accelerator at sir ya. This huge, celebrated, they discovered a really important thing. It's

Have I signs equation equals him see squared, so energy mix, mass or mass can make energy, and that's the bomb but the mechanism by which that happens, not vision, but but how do you create mass from energy, ah was never understood. Until there was a we have heard about seventy years ago now and so they discover is named after a man named higgs scalded exposure so it was discovered. But since that time and I worked on those eggs sperm and since that time they have been able to progress very much further back, but not a lot further, and that France is that were really lucky were in what we're doin in that their year. You see their sakes

no sound but there's a tremendous amount of other physics. It goes on and you have to pick out the needle in a haystack kind of of physics. You can't make the physics go away, it's there. In our case, we a very weak signal, but once we get good enough to see it is weak, to where we reduce the background. But the background is not. Physics is technology. You know it's getting ourselves, better isolated from their third getting a more powerful laser and so each time each since twenty fifteen, when we saw the first one we continually can make improvements literate enabling us to turn this into her. A real science to do astronomy, a new kind of astronomy,

I like astronomy, I mean galileo started the field. I mean he basically took lenses that were made for classes and he didn't invent the first telescope but made a telescope looked at neptune and solid had four months- that was the birth just using your eyes to understand. What's out there answer That time we ve made better and better telescopes. Obviously in astronomy, thrives and in a similar way were starting to be able. The for cross but we're starting to be able to do that with the gravitational waves since an it's gonna, be and more that we can do is we can make them and better instruments because, as I say not limited by out of others has not amended by the physics to see you have an option.

Nobody engineering, then, that you know as well as human, progress marches on engineering will always find a way to are to build a lot you know device accurate device to detect the signal. This is not limited by physics year them through it. So you two other folks, and the entire team won the nobel prize for this big. The million questions I can ask for, but looking back. Where does the nobel prize fit into all of this? You know if you think, hundred years from now

I venture to say that people not remember the winners of a prize, but they'll, remember creations like these. Maybe I'm romanticizing engineering, but I guess I want to ask how important is the nobel prize in all of this. Well, that's a complicated question as a physicist, something if you hurt, if your truck, nowhere nobel prize. Forget it because they give IRAN. one a year. So there's there's been too physicists have won the nobel prize since nineteen hundred, and so thus you know the ain't, so things just have to fall right. So your goal cannot be to win and, while prize wasn't my dream, it's Its tremendous for science, I mean why the nobel prize for a guy that made I know my surface it, what it is a long story, but

it's the one day year were actually the science that people have done is all over the world and so forth. It forget about the people. It is really good for four I celebrating science- is celebrate science, fur. You're several days different fields of chemistry, medicine and so forth. And everywhere doesn't understand everything about these serve generally fairly abstract, but then see notes on the front of newspapers around the world. So it's really good for science is not easy yet science on the front page of the new york times. It's not there should be, but it's not and so Nobel prize is important in that way. It otherwise I have a certain celebrity that I didn't have before

Now you get to be a celebrity advertise. Science is a mechanism to to remind us how credible well, how much criticized deserves- and everything were, has a little bit more. One thing I didn't expect, which is good, is that we have a government, I'm not beginners necessarily, but is true of all governments are not run by scientists. In our case, by lawyers. and businessmen. Yeah ok at best they may have an aid or something I know so little science? So so our country is an all. Countries are hardly hardly take into account science in making decisions? ok and having a nobel prize the year people,

Those positions actually listen. So are you have one I don't care where there's about global warming or with the key issue. Is there some in thoughts which is like in otherwise andor people, tension or what I say. If I talk about global warming, they wonder of before the nobel prize that this vereker you're, like the celebrities, you talk. celebrity has power. Celebrity, has power and that It's an athlete good thing as a good thing in singling out people a man on the other side of it. Singling out people has all kinds of whether its four academy award served for this, have unfairness arbitrariness and so forth, and so on, so ah goethe That's the other side of the coin, as he said, especially with the huge experimental projects like this, not so large team, and it-

it's the nature of nobel prizes singles out a few individuals to represent the tear. Nevertheless, is a beautiful thing. I, what are ways to improve lie? Go in the future, increases sensitivity, I've seen a few ideas, they're kind of fascinating is? Are you interested in them serve? Looking, I'm not speaking about five years, perhaps to speak to the next five years, but also the next hundred years. yeah. So let me let me talk to both the instrument in the science says. If they go hand in hand, I mean a thing that I said is: if we make it we see more kinds of weaker objects and we do astronomy, ok, ah, we're very motivated to make a new instrument which will be a big step. The next step making a new kind of telescope person. and the idea of what that instruments should be haven't converge yet theirs,

for an idea in europe, they ve done more work to kind of awe, develop new ideas, but their different from ours, and we have ideas, so a, but I think, over the next few years will develop those the aid is to make an instrument this at least ten times better than what we have. What we do with this instrument ten times better than that ten times better me You cannot ten times further out times further out is a thousand. Small volume. So seen much much more of the universe. The big change is, then, if you can see far out you you see further back in history. Children back in time, yeah, and so we can start to do what we can a smaller. She had server astronomy, astrophysics. Cosmology israelis, study of the evolution of the oaths,

yeah, and so they you can start to hope to get to the end. what problems having to do with how the first began, howard, evolved and so forth, which we really only study now with optical Governments are electromagnetic waves. and early in the universe. Those were blocked because, basically wasn't transparent server, photons couldn't get out when everything was to dance. What do you think sorry on this tangent? What do you think? An understanding of gravitational waves from earlier in the universe can help us understand about the big bang, another, that's that's so fully. It's a nun It's it's another perspective on the thing. Is there some insights, you think you could be revealed just there help a layman understand sure. First we don't

Listen, we use the word big bang. We don't understand the physics of what the big bang itself was on. So I think my and in the early stage there were particles, and there were- huge amount of gravity and mass being made, and so on the big the sought saucy two things. One is: how do you all start? How did it happen give you at least one example that we don't understand what we should understand We don't know. Why were here? Yes now I do not. I dont mean it philosophically, I mean in terms of physics: ok, know what I mean by that? If I go into my laboratory at CERN somewhere, I collide articles together put under she together, I make us. aunt? I matters matter. Why I met her then annihilates matter and makes energy.

So in the early universe, the hair somehow. somehow of matter and anti matter there were some asymmetry. Somehow was more matter and anti matter. The matter and anti matter, annihilated each other. At least that's what we think and there. Man only matter left over and we live in a universe that we see this all matter. We don't have any idea. We have an idea, but we don't have any We don't have any way to understand that at the present time, with the physics that we now casket dumb question the entire matter have anything like a gravitational feel too are send signals. So how Does this a symmetry of maritime matter could be investigated or further understood by observe gravitational fills, are witnesses and gravitational field, I think fit

principle. If there were a euro I neutrons stars and set it just neutron stars. We would see a different kind of signals, but it didn't get to that. We live in a universe of we ve done enough fucking because we don't see anti prop matter, anti protons anywhere, no matter what we look at, that it's all right, out of matter is no aunt. I matters have winkle in laboratories. So but my our laboratories will make us much anti matters matter. So there something about the early universe that made this asymmetry. So we can, even explain. Why were here? That's when I met the physics physics wise, not you not in terms how we evolved and all that kind of stuff so There might be inklings of of some of the physics.

The gravitational so sonogram additional waves, don't get obstructed like light, so Donna ghostly three hundred thousand years, so it goes back to the beginning. So if you could see the early universe of gravitational waves, we can't do that yet. Then, ah, it took four hundred years to be able to do that with optical, but then you can really understand the very maybe undressed in the very early universe, so Terms a question site, Why were here what the big bang was? We should believe we can in principle, study that with gravitational waves. So too, Moving in this direction is a unique kind of way, too understand our universe. You think there's more nobel prize level, ideas to be discovered in relation to I'd, be shocked, if in gravitation? If there isn't not even going to that,

is a very long range problem, but I think that we only see with electromagnetic waves, four percent of what's out there. Ah, there must be. we looked for things that we know should be there. There should be, I would be shocked if there wasn't physics objects. Science in with gravity the doesn't show up in everything we do a telescopes, so I think we're just. limited by not having our full enough instruments here to do this endeavour. Preference I keep seeing this, sir. Elisa idea: yeah is it, do you have a preference for earthbound or space faring the mechanisms for their complementary. It's a lie:

better, try signal its is Completely analogous to has been done in astronomy, astronomy from the Tampa galileo, stone with visible light near a strike. The boy, the advances in astronomy in the last fifty years or because we have instruments it look at the infrared microwave. ultra violet and so forth. So looking a different wavelengths has been important, basically going into space Means it will look at instead of the audio ban, which we look at, as we said on their surface. Well, look at lower frequencies, so ask complementary and starts. Be looking at different frequencies, just like we do with astronomy, zero, it seems the credible to me, engineering, wise, just like on earth descend, something that's kilometers across into industry.

Ass, harder to engineer as then. It actually is a little different. It's three satellites separated hundreds of thousands of kilometres They send a laser beam from one to the other and if they, the distant triangle: changes shape a little bit. They detect that from a graphic ass, his idea, you say hundreds of thousands of kilometres there. Finding ways to each other. We'll get just engineering is, is possible. Yes, that's as this incredible cosette have to maintain a mean. The precision is proud of them, but there might be some more. What is it may be? Noise is a small problem. I guess there's no vibrations. It did it to worry about like seismic stuff

no getting away from earth may be here with you in those parts are easier. They don't have to measure is accurately at low frequencies, but, I have a lot of tough engineering problems, the the in order to detect that the the gravitational waves affect things the sensors have to beef. What we call free masses just like ours are isolated from the earth. They have to isolate it from the satellite and that's hard problem the two that pretty not as well as we have to do it, but very well, and they ve done a test mission in the engine, seems to be at least in principle in hand the serbian and twenty thirty to swans railleries. There

This is incredible. This is this. Is this is incredible. Let me ask about about black holes. Are so what we're talking about is observing or being by? cause I did that I get. I saw the terminology of like binary black hole systems. Baikal is as that's when the the the the That's when their dancing the barcelona around each other, just like the earth around the sun. Is that weird that there's black holes gone around each other so. The finding binary systems of stars is similar to finally binary systems of black, well, so they were once stars so, and so we haven't said what the auto black hole is physically, yellow with a black or saw black hole. Is that is first, it's a mathematical concept or a physical concept, and that is.

A region of space, so it simply a region of space where the curvature of space time mean in the gravitational field is so strong that nothing now, including light like gets bent in gravitation. for the gravitational. If the space time is warped enough, even like it's been around and states in so that's concept of a black, also a thought of. and maybe you can make maybe it's a concept and say how they come about, and there could be different ways. They come about the ones that we are saying. Ah, there's a we're not sure that's what we're trying to learn now is what they, but the general expectation is that they come at the black. These black does happen when a star dies

So what does it mean that a star dies? What happens like our sun, basically makes heat and light by fusion meda and as it burns it burns up the hydrogen helium and solely works, its way up to the heavier and heavier elements that are in the star when it gets up dire in the fusion process, doesnt work anymore, and so the stars die. that happens the stars and then they do what's called a supernova. What happens, then, There's a star is a delicate balance between an outward pressure from fusion and light and burning. in an inward pressure of gravity trying to pull the masses together once it burns itself out, it goes and collapses and that's it

for another when it collapses all the mass that was theirs in a very much smaller space and if a star, if you do the calculations, if stars big enough, that can create a strong enough gravitational field to make a black hole. Our sun won't Stu, smart, too small and we don't know exactly what it, but it's usually thought star has to be at least three times as big as our son to make a black hole, but that's the physical, whether you can make by cause that's. The first Explanation that one would give further for what we see, but it's not necessarily true we're not sure. What we see in terms of the further words in the black holes. Now the black was there, but we see in gravitational waves, so the

you are also looking for the ones who are binary solar systems, thereby systems, but they could have been made from binary star. So there's binary stars around. So that's solar so that so this first explanation is it that's what they are cashing on other exe but but what we see as some puzzles, this is kind the way science works. I guess The we see heavier ones then uptown we ve seen One system that was one hundred and forty times the mass of her own son, para yeah, that's not believed to be possible with the parent being a big star, because big stars can only be so big. ah- or they are unstable- is just the the fact that they, an environment that makes them unstable, so

fact that we see bigger ones. They may be come from. Something else is possible that they were made in a different way. by little ones eating each other up or maybe they were made, are made. They came with the big bang, the prime. What we call primordial mitch means there really different. They came from that. We don't know what point with they came with a big bang, then maybe they account for what we call matter some of it like those a lot of them, but they came with it and there's a lot of dark matter, yeah but gravitational waves, give you any kind of an intuition about the origin, these are so. We think that if we see the distributions enough of them provisions of their mass, the distribution of their, how their spinning, so we actually measure when they're going to each other, whether their spitting you like this

this ban or now another more into whether the whole system has any while bulls what we ve. So this is an as is now ok, We were doing that and they are constantly kind of crawling back and back and am were crawling back in time seen how many there are as we go back and so do they point back you're like what does that discipline call cartographer fierce than the year like mapping this The early universe visa the ones of gravitational waves, not at the early universe, below back and earlier. So, ah so black also her this mathematical phenomenon, but they come about different ways. We have a huge black hole at the centre of our galaxy and other policies, those probably were, made some other way. We don't know when the galaxies themselves had to do with it. For me,

galaxies? We, we don't really know so. The fact that we use the word black hole, the origin of black holes might be quite different. Dominion They happen they just after in the end, have gravitational feel that will bend everything in. How do you feel about black holes as a human being there's a there's. This thing, that's nearly in fairly dance, doesn't let like latest escape, isn't that kind of terrifying feels like the stuff of nightmares. I should get, I think it it's an opportunity to to to do what exactly so like the early universe, is an opportunity. If we consider the early universe, we can learn things like I told you and here again we an embarrassing situation in physics. Yes, we have two wonderful theories of physics one based on quantum mechanics, quantum field theory and weakened

big accelerator, like his surname smash particles together in almost explain everything that happens beautifully using quantum field theory in quantum mechanics now we have another theory of physics called general activity, which is what we ve been talking about most the time which is fantastic, it describing things that high velocities long distances and so forth. So that's not the way it was to be. Worse trying to create a theory of physics, not two theories of physics So we have an embarrassment that we have two different theories of physics. People have tried to make fight. They re what they call a unified there, you for those words for decades

they still haven't. That's been primarily done theoretically tried this people actively. Do that my personal belief is that, like much much more six we need some clothes, and so we need some experimental evidence. So where is there a place We gotta CERN into those experiments gravitational sir generalities don't matter if we go a study, hard black holes, elementary particle physics doesn't matter worse this huge objects so well. Might we have a place where both phenomenon have to be satisfied, and example, his black holes inside black holes yeah. So we can't do that today, but when I think of black hole is a potential,

treasure chest of understanding the fundamental problems of physics and maybe can give us clues to how we bring to the embarrassment of having two theories of physics together ass, my own from am I going to get worse. That could happen that so enticing just go in and look. I do think how far away from figuring out the unified theory, physics, a theory of everything, I think, what's your sense, who will solve it like what discipline or solid yeah, I think, so little progress has been made without more clues, as I said that were knocked her we're just not,

people to say that were close without some clothes, the best, the closest, not popular theory. These days that might lead to that is string theory and the problem with string theory. Is it works? So, a lot of beautiful mathematical problems. We have in physics and. And is it's very satisfying theoretically, but it has almost no predictive, maybe no predictive ability because It is a theory that works in eleven. since we live in physical world of three space one time dimension. In order to make predictions in our world with string theory you have to. Somehow get rid of these other seven dimensions. That's done.

amerika by saying they curl up on each other on scales that are too small to affect anything here. But how you do then s? Ok, that's ok, yeah, but how you do that is not unique That means, if I start with a theory- and I go to our world here, I can't uniquely go to it, which animal, It is not predictive and that's that I see nothing killer as a killer and string theory is, it seems for my outsiders perspective is lost favour over the years. Perhaps because of This video is a lack of predictive power. I mean that science has to connect to something where you make predictions as beautiful as it as it might be. So I don't think we're close. I think we need some experimental clues it may be. Information on thing we do understand presently at all like dark. Energy are probably not dark matter, but

energy or something might give us some ideas, but I dont think, were I can Envision right now in the short term, meaning the horizon that we can see how we're gonna bring these two things together. A kind of two part question may be just asking the same thing in two different ways want. One question is give hope That humans well colonise the galaxy, so expand our become a multi planter species, another way of asking that, from a gravitational and propulsion perspective, you think, will come up with a way to travel closer, the speed of light or may be faster than the speed of light.

We may get our whole heck of a lot easier to expand out into the into the universe. Yeah why? I think you know we're not that's very the touristic? I think we're not that far from being able to make a one way trip to mars. That's it that's the question of her. Whether people are willing to send somebody on one way trip. But all I think there is a lot of the explorer his birthright or yeah, exactly people willing to die, sir, an opportunity to hit to explore new territory here. So ah, you know roots this. This reason landing on mars is pretty impressive. They helicopter fly around. You can imagine you

Imagine in the not too distant future that you could have. I dont think civilizations colonizing. I can vision, but I can vision something more like the south pole, we haven't colonise, an article because its all eyes and cold and so forth, but we have station So we have a station the self sustaining at the south pole. I've been there, it sound, really yeah. What's that like? Because at that there's parallels there to view the mars is and testing was the jury like the journey involves guy the self station is, sir run in the? U s by by them sure science foundation, I went because I was on the national science board that runs the national science foundation.

See you get a vip trip if you're healthy enough to the south pole to see it ah, which I took. Ah, You fly from the? U s to australia to to ah Christ church an asteroid southern us and from there you Why to make murdo station, which is on the coast and ass the station with about a thousand people? right on the coast of antarctica article about sex, right our flight and they can predict the weather. So one when I flew from Christ, church macmurdo station. They tell you in advance to a military aircraft they tell you in advance that they cannot predict whether they can land because they have to land and reassuring yeah and so about halfway pilot garonne and said

sorry. This is a they cholera. Boomerang fight, rang goes out so We have to stay a little while and christ church, but then we eventually went to make murder. station and then flew to the south pole. The south pole itself is when I was there was minus fifty one degrees that was summer ah as zero measures. And and it's about. eleven thousand feet altitude because its never warm enough for anything to melt. So it doesn't sell very much, but it's about eleven thousand feet of snow so you land in places high altitude, cold ass could be and draw an incredibly dry

which means yoda physical adjustment the place itself This is fantastic. They have this great station there there they do astronomy at the south pole nature wise, is a beautiful. What is it was? The experience like or is it like visiting a town Oh, it's very small there's only on less than a hundred people there, even when I was there is there were about dear sixty there and in the winter, there's less after that they are winter when it gets real cold. He gets really cold here and but it's but it's it's a station. I think. and that's I mean we haven't gone beyond that on the coast of antarctica. They have greenhouses and their self sustaining macmurdo station we haven't really settled war than that kind of thing

an article which is ah a country, are you big, planned a big piece of land Oh I don't know. I can't envision kind of colonizing people living so much as much as I can see, are the equivalent of the south pole station were in a competing world. There is the idea of in a back up your dad. and then you wanna do off site back up in order to make sure that if the whole thing break whole house burns down, they even have a backup of say of the data. I think that if in antarctica and and mars. Mars is an offsite backup. If we have nuclear war, whatever the heck might happen here on earth, it'd be nice to have a backup elsewhere, be nice ever large enough colony, where we set a variety of people except lake.

A few silly astern, arson and suits you have our action. vibrant get? If you give musicians and artists up there get a few or maybe like one or two computer scientists. sancho, maybe even a physicist, sir, So I shall not so that comes back to something you talked about earlier, which is fair met the paradox from his paradox, because you talked about having no escape but and so the missing one one, none you don't know how to use in fair miscalculation are drake was done at your area. Is how long civilizations last year. They are we here. We've barely gotten to where we can communicate with electricity, a magnetism and maybe will wipe ourselves out pretty soon. I hope for in general People got another couple hundred years at Are you all right? Well, I know I'm I'm I'm hopeful

but I don't know if I'm hopeful in the long term. You know if you say you know. Are we able to the girl for another if thousand years, I'm not sure, I think we have when where we started the fact that we can do things, it don't allow us to kind keep going or there can be whether who ends up being a virus that we creator and are being the equivalent of nuclear war or something else so clear that weakened control thinks well enough sauce, We cannot really call conditions, not being hopeful eventual suffering and destruction of the human species. Thus, let me ask you about russian literature. you mentioned the half, has effort transition and do my best here. You are mention they used to love literature when you're, a younger and you're even now or hope.

To be a writer yourself that the motivation and the sum of the books I seen you listed dumb that were inspiring to you was was from russian literature I caught, I think tolstoy, dostoevsky solzhenitsyn right, maybe Jeremy can speak to your fascination with russian literature or general you picked up from those. I not surprised you picked up when the russian literature- I'm sorry your background, but that ah well, when I've well, when are you should be surprised that make the entire conversation about that? That's the real surprised when, when I didn't really become a physicist, Sir, if you want to go in science until I started college, when I was younger I, is good at math in that kind of stuff, but I didn't really-

came from a family, nobody went to college and I didn't have any mentors so, but I d like to read when I was really: and so when I was very young, I I read, I always carried around a pocketbook And- and my mother at these men Very stories I got bored by those eventually and then I discovered real literature. I dont know what age, but twelve or thirteen, and so that I started reading good letter. Sure there's nothing better than russian leadership. Of course, in angry reading good literature. So I, ah, I read quite a bit of russian literature at that time. And so you asked me about it though. Well I dunno, I say it fewer said dostoevsky. So what what about dusty sky for me and thus to have sky where

important into I mean I've, read a lot of letters shirk as a kind of the other thing I do with my life and email may too, credible and in addition to his own literature, he influence literature tremendously by having. Ah I don't how to drive polyphony so the first real serious arthur had hand multiple narrators and that's it. Then he absolutely is the first, and he also was the first time. He began existential literature and so the most important book that I fear that in the last year one I've been forced to be isolated, was existential, literature side decided to re, read composed the plague-

Oh yeah, that's a great book, it's a great book and it's right now to read it. It's a book is about love, actually, love furs, humanity It has all the man, it has another key issue, if you ve, I haven't read in recent years. I had read it before, of course, but teresa during this cause us about a plague. So it's really a fantastic to be done, but that reminds me if he was a great existentialist but the beginning of risk as essential. Literature was doorsteps, ask so in addition to his own young, great novelty, a tremendous impact on on on literature, and there is also for this. He husky, unlike most of their existentialist, he was At least in part religious, I religiosity were permeated his. Dear me, one of my favorite books of his is the area in his which is a crime. like figure in their brothers prince misconception.

Much can michigan as as one thing about their eighty rain, english, I presume yeah. Yes, that's the names, that's who gets a lot of people's there's, so many so hard to pronounce it remember all of them. They have the same problem, but he was great character so that visitor yeah? I kind of have a connection with him because I often than than the title of the book you're, the idiot is a kind of. I often call myself an idiot. Is that how I feel I feel so naive about this world and I as a measure, I'm not sure why that is maybe is genetic or so on, but I will of a connection the special, actions that are worked out: a mission to Michigan They are just in energy far from his ear. He now, when some sense in some sense. but in another sense,

maybe not of this in another, since he was here may, but even the bumble or began but He also measure solzhenitsyn, yeah, just thing as it did. and then he always confused me. Of course he was really really here important, Talking about Stalin first getting in trouble and then he later he is here. brought about stolen away. I forget what I was with. The book was in a way that was very critical of london. Yeah. He he's evolved the years he actually show. Support for Putin eventually is a very interesting transition. He took no journey. He took to thinking about russia

in soviet union, but I think what I get from him as basic gum, frankly has its message for meaning ever some kind of sense of of the cruelty of human nature, here cruelty of indifference, city billy define happiness in the small joys of life that that something there's nothing like a prison camp that makes you realize. You can still be happy with very very little yeah. He was. He is description of how to mecca. how'd it go through a day and actually enjoy prison camp is pretty amazing. Yeah, oh and some prison camp. I mean it's, the worst of the worst comes to the worst, and also just that I I you know I do think about.

The role of authoritarian states and in you know, like hopeful idealistic systems, leading to the suffering of millions, and I you know might be arguable, but I think a lot of people believe stolen. I think Jane I believe that he's doing good for the world and He wasn't it. This is a very valuable lesson that dumb, even people think they're doing good. Otherwise is too difficult to do the evil. The best way to do evil eve remain away like your damn good and then this is. This is a very clear picture of the which is the the gulags associates is why the best piazza reveal that Was recent thing I read: isn't actually fiction was the

Women are carrying over her name who got the nobel prize about within. Five years I don't know there. She, ukrainian russian, but their interviews have you read them in view of ukrainian survivors of well She may be original ukrainian, sir. I'm the books written in russian then transfer name lotion, many the interviews in moscow and places, but she one another price within the last five years or so. But what's interesting is that these are people of all different ages, all different occupations and so forth and though, reflecting on the their reaction to basically the presence obvious system. This system may live with before there's a lot of looking

find a lot of them with ah well, ah it being much better before yeah, I don't know I ate the in American. We think we know the right answer what it means to be to build a better world, I'm not so sure I think we're out just trying to figure it out yeah, there's a buzz. I think you're right is their advice he can give to young people today Besides reading our russian literature at a young age about how to find their way in life. I defy success in career. Just life in general, my own belief. Not be very deep and I believe it You should follow your dreams,

could have dreams and follow your dreams. If you can do they sent, you can and spend a lot of our time doing something with ourselves mine. My case physics in your case sat on up whatever it is machine learning in this we should get you should have fun- was- were dreadful. Your dreams, what what dream did you have cause the as Originally, I was cause you didn't, follow your dream. I suppose you're right along the way I was gonna, be when I changed what. However, that was what happened. Oh I read. I decide to take the most serious literature course in my high school, which was a mistake. I'd probably be a second rate. Writer now hanta could be nobel prize winning and the the book that we read

even the I read russia novels, I was fifteen, I think, ah cured from being novelist discharge dream! Yes cured, you ok what was but moby dick tat. So why mobile? dick yeah, why so I ever since- and I is a great novel This is good as the russian I've never made it through. I want is to block two on. your words are gonna mesh with, I say excellent and you may have the same problem at over it. I swear, I'm not a writer. It may be so the problem is moby. Dick is When I remember was it, there was a chapter. Never may be a hundred pages long. All this maybe this why there was a happy and the white whale and it was battle between a ahab with his wooden peg leg and the white whale, and there was a chap,

There was a hundred pages long in my memory. I don't know how long it really was. The described detail, though, a great white way on what he was doing and what his friends are alike, and this in that, and it was so incredibly boring reduce than I thought. If this is great literature screw, I say: ok, now. Why did I have a problem? I know now and reflection, because I still read a lot and I I read that novel after I was thirty or forty years old, The problem is simple: I diagnosed with the promise I that novel, in contrast. The russian novels, which are very realistic, and your point of view is one huge metaphor, At fifteen years old, we didn't know the word, and I certainly do know the meaning of metaphor. Yet what do I care about? A fish

Why you found him all about this? Exactly is one big metaphor. Reading it later. As a metaphor, I could really enjoy it, but the tissue it made the wrong book romania's right book ass. I went into physics, and so when it was, it was truly, I think I may over simplified It- was really that I was too young jury that book, because not too young to read the russian novels. Interestingly too young to read that, because I I probably geneva another word and certain an understanding as a metaphor, whatever the fish I recommend, Buried old man see much shorter. I've got I still much as I saw where you can read it just as a story about it, a guy catching a fish and is still fund a red. I had the same experience, as you know, one moby, dick, but later in college. I took a course and jane choice. Why, as major in computer science,

of course and James, and I was kept being told that he is widely considered by many considered, be the greatest literary writer of the twentieth century. I kept breeding like I think so. His short story, the data think called is very good at one that very good, but pretty good. and then Ulysses very good. It is very good only of the dead. The final story still rings of me today, but then Ulysses was I out. I got through Ulysses with the help of some cliff nonsense on but also at the us season and finnegan's wake the moment I started fitting his wake. I said this: this is stupid. This is that's when I went full into like. Ah I dunno that's where I went for kafka because sky, like people who just talk about the darkness of the human condition in the fewest words possible and without any of the music

I have language, so it was a turning point as well. I, I wonder, I wonder, when is the right time to do the to appreciate the beauty of language. Like even shakespeare, I was very much off putting shakespeare in high school and only later, sarge appreciate its value in the same way that the mass go ridiculous question I mean because you ve read rush literature. Let me ask this one last question: I might be lying there. Maybe a couple but waiting is the meaning of this whole thing. you're a you got a nobel prize for looking out into the trying to reach back, the beginning of the universe, listening to the girl, Additional ways, but that's Doesn't answer the? Why? Why are we here beyond?

the matter and anti matter. The philosophical question, the fellow citizens question about the meaning of life. I'm, probably not really good at? I think there. The individual meaning I would say rather simplistically, is whether you ve made a difference, positive difference at safe anything besides yourself, meaning you could. Have been important? Other people or you could have discussed gravitational waves, the matters to other people or something, but something beyond just existing on the earth has an the visual, so your life,

as meaning. If you have affected either knowledge or people or something beyond yourself. Do it's a simplistic statement, but it's about as good as I and that's that may in all of it's simplicity, it may be very true: do you think about the? Does it make you sad that this ride ends? Do you think about your mortality? yeah, I you fail not exactly afraid of it, but saddened by and ah, I am old enough to know that I've mobile most of my life and death. I enjoy being alive

I can imagine, being sick and not wanting to be alive, but I'm not and so on. Good right yeah, I'm not I'm, not happy to see it coming I'd like to see it prolong, but to her I don't I don't. I fear the dying itself for that. It's more I'd like to prolong what is, I think, you're a good life, the only living and still living. Let's cut it sad to think that the finances of it is the thing that makes a special And also sad, too,. to me at least this cut it out of. Two strong of war, but it's kind of terrifying. The uncertainty.

the mystery. Let you know that in a mystery of death, the mystery of death- about the MR black holes that somehow distant that somehow out there in the mist if our own, but but but even light the mystery of consciousness. I find so hard to deal with two I made a not is painful They were conscious, but the whole magic of life of I can understand, but consciousness where we can actually think and so forth its pretty of its. It seems like such a beautiful give. That really is such that we get. The lack of it will happen, let go of it. What are you up? Your legacy is as I'm sure they will aliens vision. She must have destroyed all of human. evaluation, aliens read about you and then cyclopaedia that will leave behind. I would you hope it says. Well, I would I would hope,

to the extent of actual hit me. I felt that I help move science forward as it. Tangible contribution and that I served as a good role model for how humans should live their lives and were part of creating one of the most incredible things humans have ever created. So yes, there is the science, that's the fermi thing right there in the instrument, I guess and the instruments it is true. It is a magical creation not just by a human, by a collection of humans. The collaboration is. that's that's humanity at his best, I do hope I do hope we lasts quite a bit longer, but if we don't,

good thing to remember humans by at least they built. That thing is pretty impressive. Very this is amazing conversation. Thank you so much wasting your time, explaining. Also me things so well. I beseech you time today. Thank you thanks for listening to this conversation with very barish to support this part gas. Please check at our sponsors in the description and now let me leave use words for warner, heisenberg, a theoretical possessed key pioneers of quantum mechanics. Not only is the universe. Stranger though we think it a stranger that we can think. Thank you for listening and hope to see you next, at the