Dr. Jordan Peterson and 2024 presidential candidate Chris Christie discuss the disproportional power of teachers unions, the seemingly perpetual state of the Ukraine/Russia war, the real impact of the Biden laptop scandal, and why Donald Trump might not be the right Republican candidate going forward.
Chris Christie is an American lawyer, politician, lobbyist, author, and former federal prosecutor who served as the 55th Governor of New Jersey (2010 to 2018).
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
Hello. Everyone I'm very pleased to announce dates for my forthcoming european tour. I will be visiting long with tammy belfast northern ireland october fifteenth lisbon, Portugal october eighty
Stavanger Norway October twentieth, malmo, Sweden october twenty first madrid, Spain October twenty third amsterdam, netherlands,.
October, twenty fifth vilnius, lithuania october, twenty sixth, riga, latvia october, twenty seventh tickets, are now available on my website. Jordan, be petersen, dot com,
hope to see you there.
Hello, everyone watching and listening today, I'm pleased to speak
lawyer federal prosecutor,
Former new jersey, governor now running
president chris Christy
discuss the unfortunate and disproportionate power of teachers unions.
The potentially perpetual state of the ukraine, russia, war, the imf
the Biden, laptop scandal and my dad
on trump, at least in Mr Christy's opinion
might not be the right republican candidate going forward all right.
Well, thank you for agreeing to talk to me today in and everyone whose listing and watching
quite an exciting development. As far as I'm concerned to see these long form dialogues take their place in the in political disk
because it really allows people the opportunity to unfold division. Joy. I thought the first thing. I might ask you, because I think this is the question that
foremost on my mind and should be on them.
of people who are watching and listening is why
do you think that you would be a good precedent? What what is it that makes you stand out from the other? They rested,
I say on the republican side on the democrat side as well. Why should people
be concentrating on your campaign
A vice versa. Thanks round me on, and I look forward to this kind of long
form conversation is well. I think it's much more informative for folks
I'd say three things come to mind immediately.
The first is that
if we ve gotten in our country to small in terms of politics,
Are you about what I think are relatively small things in the brain?
scheme of what our country should be working on where
divide each other into smaller and smaller groups, where,
hitting each other against each other
anger seems to be the predominant emotion.
I won't be president, because I want to do the big things this
traffic has always been at its greatest. Where does big things and
for me
Some of those its examples of some of those things are
educational system.
the twelve, I think is failing our country and our friend
These miserably when a third.
Our kids can't read a grave level in this country.
We need to have a radical change in the way we educate. Kids came to twelve and I never got some more detail on that. I hope will later in the conversation, but I want
parents much more in charge of those things
power them to do. It said
and crime in this country has become up
near epidemic problem in our cities and its effects.
In quality of life
the ability of people to enjoy all the
things that we have an american citys- and this is because
prosecutors locally decided they don't want to prosecute.
Party life crime and violent crime in the way
they used to. I think, if you don't
have a sense of the rule of law.
And law and order in your country.
Diminishes. Our responsibility to enjoy their lives had to make the most of them and so,
as president, I would make sure
we sent federal prosecutors into other cities have significant
the problems of the law.
Prosecutors will prosecute their violent crime. We will and make sure
We clean up what's going on in our cities through
I think that america is gonna continue to play a leading role in the world
too much descent in our own party, which is fine to the argument, but I think the argument needs to be resolved before.
Of america being a leader around the world
and so that's why favours support in ukraine and wood
Hence it increase it because, I think,
the proxy war. Right now between the
states in the west in china, china,
supplying the money for a russian across
this war and
these mansion that has always been apart.
Of russian foreign policy is right on display and we need to
All right where it is because
free and secure europe? Is
important to america's political and economic,
future
and, lastly, what I'd
is that we do
talk to each other and more in government are we.
tweet at each other or whatever, it's called thou acts at each other,
We use social media that stuff
The reason I'm different is because I was
republican governor free years, in a democratic state with it
a crowd of state legislature, and I
to figure out how to work.
But the other side to account
things that mattered and that
consistent with my principles. There's nobody else in the races had that experience, and
at most, what it's like in washington d c, and we
The present again, whose willing to spend his or her political
capital on bills.
Those relationships and trying
things done, I've always
operated jordan in my career in politics on the prince,
that is harder to heat up close and
the more that we get to know each other more,
get to know each other's families,
motivated thus giving the public life where
priorities are what we really want to accomplish.
the greater chance. We have to be able to get things done for the american people,
and so I think that makes me a lot different than any
candidate in this race and
it will. Allow me to solve problems like immigration saw problems
are entitled programmes and their impending bankruptcy.
And the effect that would have on the american people so that.
people should be focusing on me- and I am I am- I campaign-
kay so you outlined for basic categories: education,
law and order, let's say foreign policy, America's role in the world, and then
dialogue between republicans democrats, let's, let's start at the top of our list on their education side. I know that
governor yu
introduced a number of educational reforms? I was reading today that at least at them
but there is no long term indication that they actually improved educational performance. That's
surprising to me because it actually turns out to be quite difficult to to refer
education in a way that actually makes a difference, and
And maybe that's wrong. I haven't done laws
delving into the direct consequences of your reforms. But I do have some specific questions on the education front, so
and here's one. That's really perplexed me for a long period of time, so.
I worked at harvard and ninety two
the ninety. Eight
we spend a lot of time analyzing research,
It was done in the departments.
The faculties of education and
Families of education, since the early sixties have abdicated their responsibility entirely. They general
They generally train the least motivated students at you,
kirsty, often ones with the worst grades, to develop
teaching, because they can't figure out what else to do.
quality of research that the faculties of education are produced to call
appalling is barely to scrape the surface knave champ.
in whole word reading. They ve champion self esteem, training, emotional, social learning more.
bull intelligences like a whole,
emotional intelligence, a whole panoply of, of course,
concepts that have no scientific standing whatsoever and have done nothing but her kids and
become their law
clearly among the most well disciplines the farthest left disciplines that have emerged.
Within the university yet
They have a hammer log on teachers, certification and that gives them access to fifty percent of american state budgets. So one of the things I'm curious, but also noticed it
you had chaired the republican governors association I can
I understand why the republican governors haven't take
and teachers certification away from the factories vegetation,
and why are they allowed to have a hammer law? Can teach your production there's no evidence whatsoever that their good doing their jobs and plenty of evidence to the contrary? So well, that's a specific,
question I have, but I am also curious about what else here,
devoted to on the educational reform front, and why you think it would work why you
it would work. Well, let me so.
I talking about your specific thing. It was
the big fights that I had new jersey that I wound up not being able to win, because I needed legislative support to get it done, and
as hard as I tried to do it
the teachers unions, as you know, are an enormous political force and why diminished alive
of their influence. I couldn't get off
the teacher certification front and I think
put your finger on something that is extraordinarily important. If we want to reform our national education system is the idea that good
teachers do not often come from
departments of education.
In our universities and colleges ants.
That's one of the one. The france that we have to have a national
conversation and arguments about
more broadly, I do think that we need
talk about the hammer lock on fifty percent of
budgets, you're right and in some instances is even more.
It serves. The amount of money is spent were spending about
billion dollars nationwide year
ok, the twelve education, and I
it's time to
The federal government led the way and it
states that are already providing educate,
a choice and those that are not
to move my shorts. Much more choice
choice, model
just for underprivileged folks, but for everybody, and that is
Public schools will only get better if they have to compete and
you have to compete in a meaningful way against other options. Private schools, parochial schools, but all
so within the public system.
Broader availability of charter schools and renaissance schools, which
operate much differently. So when you look back and
in jersey, one of the places where we had with our
we still have a huge impact was in the city camden, where they had.
Six of the ten law is performing schools. Individual schools
in the entire state, and
we did was take over the board of education there and we
encourage the development
charter and renaissance schools in the city and authorize them to compete with the
this public schools.
You ve seen? Jordan is an enormous increase in
the reading and math scores. If you
get the last ten years in the city, a camden
has been enormous increase in that in the end,
kate, five range, and I think that that competition
is leads to other reforms that are really necessary. For instance,
you're having a longer school year
We had some have to eleven months school year, rather
school year. We do now
I'm having longer school days.
Kids need more time both every day
throughout the year, I'm to be
to create the right way, and especially kids, who
from our inner cities and may not necessarily have to support, is home to encourage
paypal, learning that becomes holistic and so
We need a reform this in every way we can provide
we're choice and give parents,
the financial resources they need to be able to
actually that choice. So if you want to go to a public school, give a good cop public school in you
in your time. Didn't you to go to it and your money
it's a public school, but if you choose to send him to charge
will a renaissance, school, private, school, parochial, school,
you should have the resources in an account to
The spend on your child's education rather than continuing to
I turn now to the public,
or teachers unions that
as we saw most starkly during covert care.
about what
seeing the least of their members and not,
in the main and educating our children so
I would like to deal with a bit more into. You said that when you try,
two
and form the hammer lock of, though
teachers, unions say on tv on on on the provision of teaching in new jersey that you, you babbling
standstill in that was partly because you were
facing a democratic control. Legislate
it's assembly, and so of course that makes it more difficult. But I'm I'm I'm still. I'm I'm
curiosity on this front, isn't satiated yet because it looks to me like such a colossal failure on the republic inside both at the state level, local.
stayed and national level.
To allow, in a word them
still the terrible culture war. It's not
equally obvious that the even know
classic liberals or the conservatives are winning it's clear
be the case that the radicals have got a hold of the education system. They are doing that through the faculties of education. I can't understand how it can be that the Republicans have essentially been blind to this for sixty years at sixty years now, given that.
The long term, future of the political state rests upon the information that kids are receiving in schools with
to their political education. Not now you
but you have hands on
experience with this, you tried to fight the fight, and it was very, very difficult for you to bring about any reform. Soaked show two questions there. Why exactly was it so difficult? What is it that the teachers unions manage
Their access to these great wall
thanks and financial resource, and also why do you think? Why are you convinced that the provision
of choice among parents is the proper path
mary target in relationship to educational reform.
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First on on the the battle on certification,
free with you by the way in in states where report
his control, everything its
astonishing to me that you wouldn't focus on teachers
creation and taking that out
the hands of the
fashionable teachers, unions and and
To me, it was one of the things that we focused on very early on sources of the we missed it.
It gets to your second point, which is I give you
since in enough in my state, we
two hundred thousand members
the teachers union in our state that create through
jews, which, at the time I was governor, were seven hundred dollars a year, so
the teacher union was collecting hundred forty million dollars a year and they didn't,
nickel toward teacher salaries, teacher print.
repeat: your health care,
and that money was just the slush fund to reward their friends and to punish them
These that's a lot of money. Jordan.
the state I went and ended
indication of it is, if you,
get to stay capital and threatened new jersey,
When I would look out the front door of the state house beside
the state has the second largest building answer
street and threatened with
the teachers union, building
It was no mistake. They wanted send that message. Every time a legislator walked in
the building that they're, bigger
and stronger than any other interest group in the state. Now look
campaigns against them and one twice state why its power?
simple to win these things, but
in the state legislature dominated by Democrats, they essentially by them jordan. I mean they
by them both,
a buying them with favour, but all
buying them through fear and intimidation
You know they went after the senate
democratic, set a precedent in my state because he would
with me: ass, an educational reform issues, most ports,
The pension reform offer
features and health benefit reform for
you're, so they have to pay more incidents
systems, to make them more solvent
they went after him? Three different
actions and the guy,
the president of the iron workers union in new jersey
a fellow union member there,
after three ties the third time they finally defeated him
and he's out of the legislature? Now
so they try to show
persistence with their object,
lessons and
stay where you have a democratic legislature or democratic governor. You just saw this in pennsylvania. Josh,
pure ran as a centrist democrat for governor promising
Then he would provide educational choice,
poverty legislature put the bill on his desk and he vetoed it under pressure
from the teachers, unions and
broke. His word that he gave during the campaign
and during the transition, and so
it's another example of it. Lastly, yes, why focus on parental choice, because
think, it's one of the hardest arguments to argue against that.
if, in fact your
education in your providing traditional public schools is so great that it
parents would choose it, but
they. If it isn't fair
of the right to make their choice for their kids
and it should be any parent guessed right to make the gets the right to make that choice. I do
Jordan net are
Our history has shown the carpet
She does almost
we bring improvement and
so exposes weakness and
that could be another way to get the teacher certification issue where
because remember these charter schools, private schools broke your schools. Often
operate under different rules,
They don't have. Unions, in the main they have to deal with
I can hire some different folks, and I think that that can help
by showing how successful they are to break
The hammer luck that you
rightly pointed out at the top of this conversation?
I teacher certification services in our public schools.
Right, so it allows for more experimentation with regards
The provision of education for acts, highlights weaknesses and and
four for the poor players to to be to be selected by the market rights.
Experimentation issue, there seems key as well. It doesn't hurt as well, I suppose, to also devolved back to parents the responsibility to pay,
attention to exactly how their children are being educated. What are you
strategically. What do you think strategically might be done apart from focusing on
until choice amongst
republicans or more
classically, liberal or conservatively oriented people too.
back against the the the knee
monopoly that enjoyed by the teachers, unions and the teacher certification process. Where did you learn
What did you learn strategically from the battle you engaged in and in new jersey? Well, with the successes that we had jordan? The way we got them was by point
Now commonsensical problems with
where the system operates. So, for instance, idea
over a hundred town hall meetings on this issue across our state
on the issues of of pension and health benefits. When I became governor,
typical teacher, who would retire at twenty five years of service with a large
pension seventy percent of salary of their high salary. They would have
He would they would have used all the money they paid into the system after two,
half years of retirement.
and teachers never paid it
nickel towards their health benefits in our states
while they were working and in retirement, the taxpayers paid. All of it. So
to go to town hobbes say how many of you would like that deal.
How many of you have that deal.
and nobody would raise their hands and eyes.
You're paying for that. When people came to recognize that they were
for that type of extravagant retirement and health benefits system,
the teachers union approval in our states as we pulled it
Went from when I started these meetings in the midst seventies down to the mid thirty's
people saw the union as selfish
self consumed and abuse of the taxpayers. What that
did George? Was it opened up the conversation on everything else?
because once you show that the representatives of these teachers
we're selfish and self consumed, and not
this time, quality that was
one problem too was: I went in order to try to break this monopoly
I went to some of the worst school districts in our state and pointed out to sea
facts beside the under performance of the students. The first was that
they turned out to be the most expensive school districts, Sophia
In asbury park new jersey, we were paying
thirty four thousand dollars a pupil to get off.
What's in the city of new york, we had thirty six
thousand dollars per pupil for awful performance in the city. A camp
thirty eight thousand dollars per pupil
I've got to any private school in america. At that time,
for that number or less
gotten significantly better education. Secondly, we then talk,
The way the teachers union protects the war,
of their members, so, for instance, in north
over a hundred teachers who literally reported every day to what they called the rubber room where they
not permitted to teach anymore, but the teacher
you prevented them from being fired, so the school district,
made the decision. George, if you believe it that it would be better,
off for the kids to pay.
These teachers to do nothing that to have them in a classroom near yeah.
When you pointed these things out to folks it open,
the entire conversation. So, for instance, I
able to negotiate with
randy Weingarten believe it or not married pay
for teachers in north for the first time
we would actually reward the teachers who are showing greater results with greater pay,
And take away this kind of
a listing view that every teachers, the same every teacher, should be paid the same based pew,
the upon experience, rather not performance
that will never happen. Jordan, if I have brought their pull numbers down to the mid thirty,
And they really worried that the legislature that they have bought
be willing to sell them down the river. So
you know, these are the things that we need to do on a national level and by the way, the good thing about report,
in governors in some of these states has been that they
expanded choice significantly, they need to take them,
steps and with it.
General government that could condition educational.
funding on taking those new steps, which is what
the deuce president? You
further, even more people, I think to be-
do some of these reforms that have shown to be effective right. So why,
Let's turn, let's turn to
what strikes me as the second most crucial
element on your list of of policy folk, I,
and that would be foreign policy, especially in relationship to what's happening in ukraine and with russia and so
that's obviously a terrible conundrum
a terribly dangerous situation, and so the first
question, I guess I would have for you want.
with regard to that issue, is how
you think we got ourselves into this mess when we
The chance in the ninety nineties. I believe too,
pulled russia firmly into the sphere of the west
and we seem to have bungled out somebody irredeemably and now
of this terrible war in ukraine. That seems to be settling down for the long haul. As far as I can tell with the additional danger of an emboldened china and so
and I don't see I haven't heard from anybody. I've interviewed a really anybody. I've talked to anything that
due to a reasonable vision for four victor,
your pay so to question. You know
how in the world did we manage to get into something this idiotic and number to give
that we are here, and
We could have the best possible of all outcomes whatever. That would be. What would those outcomes looked like an how? How would you work towards them.
Ok? So how do we get here?
I believe it was a series of mistakes and mrs evaluations, starting with the the
Clinton administration and every
president, since then has been guilty of this. So I think bill Clinton did
I focus as he should ever be. George Bush. Forty one gave him
opportunity you just spoke about by the
Berlin wall coming down because of the efforts, I believe, of reagan and push forty one,
The ending of the soviet union and the state
Up of at least what was a nominally democratic
russian federation other boris yeltsin
Try to bring
to the league of of of fair and and it just nations
I don't think bill Clinton nearly spend the time focused on that that he should have become,
of that because of his distract
focus on foreign policy and other places, I think he missed.
opportunity with russia. Then I think
bush forty three
miss evaluated. Vladimir Putin,
I think you might remember him saying you know I looked into his eyes and saw his soul.
Well, he obviously didn't, or
so he thought he saw. Wasn't there vanderpool
from the beginning, in my view, was it
former kgb operative who,
was a czarist soviet type, a leader who
intent on and he said that the
make of the soviet union was
the greatest tragedy, historic tragedy of his life,
So how do you expect jordan that you're going to willingly have a guy like that, give up here,
spanish sinnest aspirations,
and so under george w bush,
he was allowed to go back into george georgia. No
a underwear,
a obama he was,
to seize crimea,
other parts of ukraine,
no ramifications
donald trump,
continued to mass troops on the border,
ukraine and
a trump did not supply, as broad obama did not you,
with the type of weapons that could deter
russia. From wanting to invade
And ultimately Joe Biden, given how bad
he bought the withdraw from Afghanistan, sent a signal support and that he was
up to fighting this fight
putin made his move to do what it always wanted to do was bring ukraine
back into the russian federation.
And so the way we got into this mess, was a series of
tenth of this
miss evaluation and weakness.
that was read by putin as permission.
Because what we didn't find em on georgia, and we didn't find him. I crimea.
you could say is reasonable for putin to conclude that we might not find about taking all of ukraine. We had me
ukraine, a part of nato,
so he had every reason to believe that we wouldn't fight back on this. That's I think, be wound up here. I
because of the chinese involvement in this remember before putin,
went to war before we made the decision to go to war president,
he came to moscow met with
putin and said publicly. There are no limits to the french,
it between china and russia will
took that's a mean exactly what it meant, which
that china would financially support russia to go in and take ukraine.
so. We are now seeing a proxy war. The appropriate can
use of the war is
To have ukraine have
ability
to drive russia out of, in my view, the newest parts of what they
taken of ukraine and
to negotiate the borders and to
thereafter was the war ended to admit
Ukraine to nato so that
russia would now know that there was a pause
to play.
For their invasion,
the barbarism of their invasion and that
This is that now finland is a member of nato on their border. You ve got, and if you add ukraine this,
is a much worse, resulting russia can ever expected on their board.
But they brought in on themselves.
I would say also that
haven't just gotten back from ukraine ten days ago,.
I can tell you that-
The barbarism that's gone on there by the russian army is unspeakable
the murder of civilians,
burying them in shallow graves,
gouging out of eyes, while people are alive, cutting
five years and in my
if you Jordan. Worse than anything,
many thousand children, you could.
children to be kidnapped.
By the russian army and and sent to russia to be reprogrammed to work against ukraine
I met some of these mothers who had two children taken away from them data.
Their children are dead or alive, whether being
therefore our abused and whether the ever see them again these
I put things a mere.
It cannot permit an authoritarian regime to do too
free country and
to do so with impunity.
And we need to send a message to the west as a whole needs to send a message with american leadership that that's not permissible
because, if we don't putin will not stop there,
remember. The russians have always wanted to poland, because
is the way that they were invaded in both world wars.
I have one at that level of buffer
and I saw I dont believe. If we permit this, they will stop at ukraine that'll
Can you to try to reassemble as best it can? The also he in Seoul?
concerns for me in that regard are twofold:
You outlined a bit of what might constitute.
Vision for victory
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freedom to ninety nine? Eight, nine, eight.
First issue is after
world war. One
Germany was severely punished for its expansionist proclivities and not resulted in a treaty of versailles, and that was done,
and a permanently weaken germany, and that too
to be that vindictive treaty turned out to be a very, very, very bad idea. So attempting
permanently weaken a powerful
industrial economy. We have some historical precedent for assuming that that might
breed exactly the opposite result, so I've
two hawks on the american side, who think that the investment of tens of billions of dollars so far into ukraine is
consequences. That was the weakening of russia's military. Might then
was a small price to pay, but the treaty of versailles issue lurks in my mind as a counter example.
Now we might hope for regime change in the in in russia as
consequence of the difficulties,
this war, but again, if
look at russia historically
by no means obvious that poland is the worst leader. The view that russia has ever had and plus its also strikes me-
as risky to do
stabilize the conventional forces of an extremely high
Lastly, armed nuclear enemy game
that, once the normal
courses of war for exhausted the conventional forces, the nuclear
option is the only one last and so
seems to me that we may be tempting russia in that direction and
Finally,
it's not obvious to me at all that the russians will give up these new.
or territories you're. Speaking of the dawn bass, I believe in the end
territories on the eastern side now
I don't know ever when I'm reading reliable information from that area of the world, but my understanding is, there is some degree of support among them
go population, especially the russian speakers,
for the russian
incursion into those territories, and so an
Trying to justify that. That's that's not my point. I'm trying to lay out the complexities.
My sense is that russia regards these as rightful territories of of their of their state.
And that there be very, very low to give up any territory it's hard for me to imagine that potent can do that is well without having to declare something like two feet which
very unlikely, very unlikely thing for him to do. Given all the options he has in front of him so
Why do you think it's realistic to assume that with sufficient pressure, the russians will give up those
eastern territories, doin bass and
What degree are you concerned that pushing in that direction will
the russians towards well what
option is obviously the use of tactical nuclear weapons on the battlefield and so
I see my way more ways of this getting out of hand. Then I see ways of proceeding towards
Something approximating a reasonable conclusion, soul
while leave you with that mess of questions do to you
as you say, a lot to unpack there so little.
Start
I believe, were you started, which is
I am not advocating for a treaty of versailles with russia and I'm not advocating for
intentional destabilization of of russia.
Or demilitarization which is an absolutely unrealistic goals.
This is what happened to
the germans in the near term. After this,
We have rsi so not advocating for that at all, and I do think that
a real concerns about
advocating for regime change, because in russia, the devil you know maybe better than the devil you don't?
and an hour, and we ve seen that through history. So
advocating fry the one of those things
I want to be clear that I'm not saying that victory would
Like regime change in russia
I am concerned about them as a nuclear power being destabilized and so
I am not advocating for those things
what I am saying, though, is that we have not
tested fully,
much military pressure can be put on Putin too
at him to concede some of those areas
he's your sign, the dawn boss.
We have not arm them enough. Let me give you an example:
when I was in in in ukraine ten days ago, president.
He told me that, on the average day in august,
russia is a shooting fifty's,
thousand artillery shells in to ukraine,
Ukraine is responding with six thousand. Now
There are almost eleven till one problem. Is
giving ukraine what they need to be here,
the prosecute the war.
in the most effective way they can, and so
I think Joe Biden has given them enough just
enough not to lose
not enough to win and so part of what I think we need to do here
to give the ukrainians the ability to prosecute the war in the way they see fit?.
And then see how russia reacts, it may be once we ve arms ukraine sufficiently
for them to meet all of their strategic goals. Militarily
that russia still will not concede some of those areas.
Well then, that's when you sit down and have a conversation with your ally about what's
best deal. We can make here to bring this,
the conclusion, but you
can't convince them the ukraine.
It's in their interest to do that when you
given them the ability, as they see it, and I think,
given the numbers their right to be able.
rescued the war
aggressive away as is being prosecuted against them.
So if we're in we
Did you go all in from
Hardware perspective
The other reason do that. Of course, Jordan is
the message. It says the china fees
the taiwan
in other areas in asia that
they need to see that we are willing to stand up and
in ally to have
what they need to have two aggressively,
ass, a cute their own,
thence
and China's watching very closely on this front.
And we need to send a message both as a cunt
and as an alliance,
clearly to them and by the way,
I believe we have done that early on in russia. We
be in this circumstance with ukraine
we should take that as a lesson for china
and taiwan and other areas in asia. So I think, I think
I tried to answer specifically
I'm a number, the things that you laid out in your questions,
so are you to ask one more question with regard to foreign?
elsie, especially
in to ukraine so
Cynical part of me thinks.
In relation to the dangers of the military industrial complex, that eisenhower warned us about back in the nineteen sixties that the war
of attrition the
this war of attrition, it in afghanistan, came to a halt under Biden and that put the
terry contractor types in a difficult position, because the endless market for their wares had
dried up.
We ve got a situation where
We have a war in ukraine that
settling down to be a very, very long drawn out battle
and you said yourself that Biden has sent just enough enough to the ukrainians not to lose, but not enough to win
that certainly makes thee
possibility of a long drawn out and hyper expensive war paramount.
So one of the things I'm wondering about is doing
I think that the president,
with his relatively short term in power and the
multitude of his potential responsibilities and division of attention as
the case with Clinton. Do you actually think that the president can step in
HU, a situation like this? A new precedent with enough
or and credibility to stand up against-
the continually active,
its forces,
you taking, for
expensive war. He I think you natalie
can you, but you must now look.
the part of the reason is gonna be a longer. Wars is because, because obama, shrimp and buying,
have all failed to arm the ukrainians quickly me think about this jordan.
I told you about sixteen training and saying
It would take until next summer,
to train ukrainian pilots, the fire sixteens
This is absurd,
and is the result of wanting to drag it out so
take your suspicions in that regard,
could be alleviated if we,
acted more quickly, and I still think we can act quickly now
the russians, are still on their heels, hear you
have to believe the prudent believed that he able
be find the russian flag over.
eve by this point.
He's not anywhere close to that end,
we still have an opportunity by
aggressively, arming them too.
Worked in this conflict
Continue to do we're doing you know what passed is prologue.
And if we continue to act it actually acting now and the war is not coming to an end but he's a stalemate. Well then,
either have to act differently
How are you gonna continued? I still me so
you have to withdraw completely
and allow the russians to completely take over ukraine, which is unacceptable to me or you.
To ramp up,
The hardware you give
so that you could try to bring it to two a speedier conclusion. Now,
if you try that it doesn't work
The negotiation is gonna, be
only
way of ending this
and we'll have a significant say on that matter, given
that we have treated our allies fairly and appropriately.
in giving them a chance to win the war. I say
We gave you a chance with.
much of what you asked for in yemen able to get it done.
So we need the now step in and how
the negotiated conclusion to this-
until we do that we are,
absolutely.
Consigning ourselves to a stand
this situation here. So
That's why I give you more aggressive
You acquired the presidency what price
Many would addressing this conflict become
and then also given your strategy of sending additional
terry aid to you, green how'd. You protect
yourself in your country against the possibility of
getting there sleeve caught in the terrible machine and being dragged in no completely
because there is obviously well you can
the complexity there. So you know how much of this? How much would this be a priority for your administration? And what did you do to stop the you
in the west
a whole, the rest of the world from
getting dragged into what could be a catastrophic conflict,
oh in reverse, on your questions.
First is my view
the way to avoid getting dragged in is twofold,
once to be very clear
that there is not a circumstance under which I would send american soldiers
or nato soldiers to ukraine
but, secondly, to arm them sufficiently so that it would not be necessary
is in action. It is
Timidity that
Yes, that's sleeve, caught into the machine of war and guess he dragged in not
the aggression of saying we're gonna, give you, ukraine, every
every resource you need,
from a hardware perspective to pray.
cute, the war, you think, can be winnable short of forces
now, on the flip side of that, you know
in terms of priorities. It would be a
three priority for a foreign policy perspective. You know
the first priority, is our relationship with china
obviously that's interwoven with ukraine.
but we are many other issues that we need to deal with china.
In terms of intellectual property in terms of
our relationship with taiwan, it terms of, are our need.
To make sure that the chinese are not
owing discontent around the world cup
issues with china, there's a lot of issues that we have with china that we have to deal with. That would be
three priority. Secondly, I would also
looking to show
or other alliances around the world, as well
the parts of dealing with our chinese relationship
We should have a better relationship with india and we should be working on that.
We should make sure inside our own hemisphere there
Your deal with some of the challenges that go on that Donald
factors internationally, but domestically
we live in the best neighbourhood, the world, Jordan, with back
cohen, canada on our borders,
but we need to strengthen that both he can
quickly and she'll politically
to make sure that we deal with some of the issues that we have set our own hemisphere. So be it
three priority along with
Strengthening alliances and deal
very directly with china on the issue
who's that are very.
important to us
and the chinese going forward
The elder, the second largest economy in the world, where we
come very interwoven and we
to acknowledge that fact, and
can our own national interests to make sure
The terms of that relationship are ones that
give us the opportunity,
to be as successful as we can be. So, let's
We are somewhat type for time here. So, let's turn our attention. I'd like to talk to you about law and order and about dialogue between republicans democrats baby will leave that aside. For a moment, though, in
and concentrate more on their republican,
side of the race for the
home. So as
as I can tell the
front, runners are cross. Try
Obviously,
and then dissenters round the swami Hayley you and TIM Scott. You guys
like you're all possible
genuine contenders, maybe somebody also pop up as we move forward
the pause. I looked out indicate that
trumps running out about forty eight fifty,
sent dissent as twelve to sixteen rambo swami. He varies a lot so
between six and twelve years.
pants and scott somewhere between three and seven and nicky hailing at about two to four now,
There are a lot of very there's a lot of very ability in the polls, and I dont know how accurate those figures are, but you can try to identify. Maybe who, who are
who's gonna be part of the actual slate. Now you
were quite close with trump you
who helped organise his campaigns. You headed his you have
the contingent that established his presidency to begin with my
understanding is that you became particularly skeptical of trump as a college.
whence of his failure to fully accept the results of the un,
twenty twenty election. So, let's
delve into the trump issue a little bit. I think that's the right place to go next and then talk about the other republican contenders, then I'd like to
just our attention,
we can do.
The Biden scandal in the Biden presidency in general. It be a shame not to hip that. So maybe we could take about seven
it's to address the trump issue, I want to ask this question
you know, trump has been pushing this notion that the election was stolen and when I
to my democrat informants, they tell me that the evidence for that from a legal perspective is kneel and its,
difficult for me to evaluate that. But then I look at it from a broader perspective and I
This is where trump is a genius and he's
his finger on something, which is that there are
what a terrible shenanigans,
the democratic side of the universe during the
asked election and I think the worst of those was the squelching of the hunter Biden, laptop story. That was really to call
that appalling, is to barely say anything at all, because that laptops quite the damn mass and god only knows what the violence have been up to an end,
story was square
very conveniently in
ship to timing of the election, which was a very tight election, so trump might be wrong.
The election was stolen in the least
sense, but that doesn't mean he's wrong about it being stolen and moral sense, and so well so
complicated in- and you worked very closely with trump, and so
I'd, be more than happy to hear whatever you have to say on in relationship to those questions will look,
I was saying at the time that the hunter Biden laptop should have been a story, but you know it: Jordan
there are unsafe, unfair things prepared
swayed by the media. Again.
republican candidates. All the time.
And we do have a media bias in our country.
there is a liberal media bias, there's no question about that and
the problem, though, is when you
republican you gonna be tough enough to deal with it
not be a whining child and mine,
with donald trump, is now all of a sudden the problem as well, because they suppress the hunter by my laptop, I lost her, but the fact that you that
Monumentally botched
certain elements of our response to cover it. How about the fact that
your conduct while you were in office,
absolutely poison the well. We
millions of suburban women in this country who have voted for him and twenty. Sixteen at
seem to be an absolutely unacceptable alternative in twenty twenty. I ain't. You know
of what we're talking about here
with self inflicted and having
and is close to his I've been over all these years. I could
you that there were many of us were telling him that
while he was in the midst of doing it
He doesn't listen, Jordan, he does.
take advice. Well, he is,
incredibly self consumed and stubborn and
Much of what happened to him and twenty twenty could have been avoided if he listened to?
The good advice which was available to him
and was being given to him and refused to accept it
He has morphed this into. If his argument was the canopy,
Was unfair.
That's it argument with. I think a lot of us could buy into
he doesn't say that
if you look at a recent interview had on fox news with bread bear
A bread asked about those suburban women. They lie.
At twenty twenty, if he were the nominee, how are you gonna do
in twenty twenty for his response
it was, I didn't, lose in twenty twenty.
So I know what you're talking about. So,
So how do you think you're going to lose those women his car,
and the jordan here
abrasive miss his
his failures on the covert front and is
here's to keep its promises.
this is a guy city was gonna repealing, replace obamacare had a republic,
haug receiving get. It done.
This guy cities, in a balanced budget and for years,
pastors is that promise was he still
did much worse. He added
its trillion dollars to the national debt in
here's the worst fiscal record, enforced
The present american history he said, he's gonna build a wall across the entire border of mexico in the united states and that mexico
to pay for it and
had he been fifty two miles of new wall
for years, and we have got
pay so for mexico.
he said he was going to train the swamp jordan.
and instead only there was rearrange the swamp and make
for his own family
the commissioner and his daughter of vodka. Six months after these, the white house gets
billion dollars from the saudis after you,
made charity central part of negotiations in the middle east when he had two very capable it's: u secretaries of state. In rest,
where's my palm pale. Why,
in doing that
It's all part of the drift. The griffin does
to spend forty billion dollars of his own money that he raised from middle
Last donors,
but there were donated to him to help get
like the president on legal fees as a billionaire.
these. That's when his own money spending hundreds,
donors money
all of those things became apparent.
His time in a lot of suburbia women just said sorry,
gave you the benefit of the doubt and twenty sixteen, as we didn't like Hillary Clinton,
and we thought you might actually drain the swamp and do the things you said, but you didn't do them.
process and not doing them. You also offended us in the way you
doktor yourself as president on a personal level, and so they laughed and idle
think any that will change jordan and twenty twenty four
he's the nominee because,
always doing is talking about the past year. Your time in the future
still you still it again in the twenty twenty race. He does that in twenty twenty four, which is what has been done so far
Joe Biden will get reelected and that will be a calamity for this country to have a income
people. Eighty two year old president,
going to eighty six with a complete.
the incompetent vice president case
so. Let's turn I'd like to do
tromp a bit more, especially in relation to the abraham accords, but I I
instead will turn our attention to bind, and so
grandma swami tweeted out a few days ago, something I thought was extremely ominous, which was his suspicions that
the question of whether or not we're tangled up in the ukraine war as a consequence of the Biden, families, financial dealings has now be laid on the table
As far as I can tell, there's been a
these stunning series of revelations emerging out of the water out of it
investigation into the Biden family that they have
taken substantial amounts of money in a multitude it
under the protection of animals.
dude of different corporate entities from foreign actors.
in ukraine and elsewhere, something
proxy mating twenty million dollars is the story at the moment, and this is
it's so shocking to me to see this unfold, that it says
for me to believe that this is
mostly mud, throwing in mock raking on the republican inside now I
I believe that it is, but I can certainly understand how it would be.
Reassuring for people to believe that
This is all smoke and no fire out
if Biden himself has been tangled up in the bar.
Family business dealings, which seems to be highly probable, given that I can't understand what other value hundred Biden himself would bring to the table, then
We have a scandal,
a proportion in the white house that should make what's happening to trump look like a sideshow, and yet that is not happening in so
How are you reading these revelations about the Biden, family, financial dealings with foreign out
curly with foreign actors and
Do you think it entails?
both of these families need to go. Jordan
the term family and bind family who
themselves in their own personal and pecuniary interests ahead of you,
the country, you know look
Two billion dollars to Jared Kushner
what exactly is
stored. Neri investment, acumen.
Yeah it s the same questions about hunter binding,
what values he brings the table
efforts relationship to his father? Now
you think, the vague stuff about that's. Why we're involved in ukraine is laughable
we were involved in ukraine? Well, before Joe Biden ever got to the white house don
trump was sending weapons the ukrainians- I don't think anybody thinks that that was based upon some,
peculiar interest. Donald trump had an hour.
European allies are involved in this as well. So I thought
This is vague. Just
being him and throwing that out there the same
he throughout that. You know.
I think we know everything about nine eleven.
In the common hasn't told us everything and then he had
I significantly to give offer that post that he put it.
with one of the longest post, I've ever seen, train
splain away and irresponsible common. Let's get to the real point here:
both the trunk family and the Biden family have put their,
pecuniary interests of their own families. I had
the interest of this country and for buying
hundred by now have access to get
his father, while he was vice president united states on the phone.
these business folks
that's what he was selling.
it wasn't the illusion of access. As some of the Democrats say it was.
Access. He got
on the phone to talk to these,
fines and, as a result, these
paid him significant amounts of money now, whether the
the president. Now president Biden
Some of that money or not. I think we should continue investigate and find out, but
I point to you- is that when you've got don trump
donald trump junior fiance giddy pace
two thousand dollars and campaign money to give a three minute speech on January. Sixth, when you have
campaign money donated by regular americans, paying a hundred eight thousand dollars for below
a trump stylists when you ve got it
paid two hundred fifty thousand dollars to to.
refurbished his plane.
Various examples of rift in both of these families that are breathtaking and
every bit of it should be investigated. That's why
this point for a special council quite
some time ago to investigating
Our Biden issue I'm very disappear.
That. They appointed the guy, who was obviously either completely
carpeted, written the tag on the
Joe Biden play so badly that a judge rejected the play
but we should be investigating the Biden situation. Justice
Sadly, as well.
Best again the trump situation, and
I'm tired of the what about ism. It does
make shrubs stuff not troubling his stuff.
just is troubling as binding stuff,
they both need to be got. That, in my view, is that both of these families are poor.
their sell by date for life.
The ship in this country, and we need.
move on from both try
and by and by the way, seventy five percent america people agree with that. They don't
a trump I'd, grayson of ember, twenty four. So the boy,
stuff, is serious and any
needs to be examined,
Every way, including with the president
how do you vice president or during the period
private citizen was profiting from
One hundred Biden was up to.
I know that when you were governor, I'd, be
been thinking here. While you are talking about know why you might be credible on me,.
anti family dynasty side of things. Let's say
You know, I don't know any details about your own family and about whether or not you might be some one less
The bowl to that kind of pressure, but I do know that
You ran why
appeared to be a pretty effective anti corruption campaign, when you
we're attorney in new jersey and so
the EU could, maybe you could
our people a little bit about that and then
If you have anything to say in closing to some everything up that we ve been talking about it, you know what
A final word to the people who are watching and listening we're gonna
which, over the daily wire side for another half an hour for everyone watching and listening just so, you know talk about some of of of
Mr Christy's autobiographical history,
get to normal little bit better, but we're in a closed this one up relics
quickly, so
did you do on the anti corruption front in new jersey? What did that teach you about conducting such investigations and what do you and then? What do you have to say in conclusion?
x for bringing it up? I look.
We person is gonna, be standing on the stages at any experience, deal
With law and order and dealing with,
the issue, in particular political corruption. It was
it's probably new jersey. When I became u s attorney there in two thousand,
and the two and I
came the significant amount of resources to it. What were the results
We brought a hundred and thirty
in seven years, a hundred and thirty prosecutions for political corruption against
both republicans and Democrats and
the results, Jordan. We were
in thirty no way.
Not lose one case, not one case
dismissed and
reason for that
to my overall philosophy on this. You approach the
problems without fear.
favour or partisanship
Fear how big the person is,
is being examined. You
I someone because there
powerful, a rich and
Can I ever allow partisanship get into the middle of it? Corruption,
corruption, no matter who is performing it
I remember the first case I did involved
the front runner for united
they sent it on the republic inside it,
in two thousand to and a republican official
call the friends of mine. When I brought the case and said what the hell
he's doing
I thought he was one of us:
and my old law partner said to him. You know
Chris
He's not one of us he's gonna do
what he thinks is right and- and I think
taught me was that
the only way to make law and order order efforts
as regards seem fair and just is for them
be fair and just and complete without fear or favour or partisan,
if so I became President Jordan- I'm little
when the attorney general, with two instructions? One
pursue every matter, that's appropriate to pursue without fear or favour.
Partisanship and too don't
and ask me anything about any criminal
instigation that you're doing the prey
it has no business being involved in it and when
was governor by the way, even though I have lots of opinions about what my attorney general we're doing,
are doing there.
I'll tell you publicly that I never once picked up the phone, nor lay one on my behalf, cod ass.
many things are urged them to do or not do anything, I'm in a criminal
investigation. That's your way
other, can have faith in it in the end,
I think what we need as a president is
will who actually knows how to get things done?
Who actually has a record of being able to work with both sides and accomplish things who is on afraid to use
bali, pulpit in a way that is appropriate to move opinion both of them
people that you represent and of their representatives to try to get things done,
someone who believes
That is harder to hate. Up close,
what we all need to do is to work too,
either to try to get things accomplished in his country.
our countries set up jordan constitutionally, as you know, to be an argument,
that's fine. As always, the argument leads to a result
right now we're living in a world of small arguments about things that are
spent to inflame and divide.
A presidency is going to be about
big things of consequence to make our country better
two years from now
Five minutes from now the next new cycle well served.
seems like a good place to close
I'm going to flip to the daily wire plus side of the.
Interview now for everyone watching and listening? So you can join us on the delaware plus platform if you would think
very much for agreeing to talk to me today. If you
inclined you know a few months down the road for months five months, six months down the road when you're more in the midst of
presidential campaign and they'll be
sort of new things to discuss, I'd be more than happy to,
What do you again? We can see how this goes in and how people respond to it, but that offers open on very curious this,
to be a real,
arguably dramatic and interesting presidential election. I think we haven't seen the likes of this in our lifetimes. You and I were about the same age, and so it's going to be something to see and unfold. Thank you,
for talking me today and for sharing your thoughts with
my viewers and my,
my listeners and
to all of you who are in fact watching
listening. Your attention is much appreciated, thanks to the daily, where folks, for making this possible, as they always do, and for making it work.
also professionally uneasily easily
onto the daily wear, plus side, very nice. To talk to you, sir. Thank you looking forward to join
The
Transcript generated on 2023-09-16.