The. hello, everyone watching and listening today, I'm speaking with author party. Asked and film producer, Robert Bryce, we discuss topics from his latest book, a question of power electricity and the wealth of nations, their current audacity of those pushing the zero emissions net zero agenda, how those posts is really affect the developing world and the poor in the west hint. It's not good. the feasibility and necessity of core fossil fuel nuclear power now and into the foreseeable future. The catastrophic press go and environmental problems related wind and solar and a positive vision for the future.

we can all share voluntarily. Should our institutions finally drop their fear, ongoing tyranny inducing doomsday narrative? Let's start well, we can start where we want, but perhaps on the renewable energy front might be a good place to dive in sure and was so well I'm glad to talk about there are some in those are all and passionate about those issues as my purpose and so Also just point out on my latest substantial. I don't know a third, your team send it to you, but the title was meat, solar panels and the gist of the is that the? U s export import bank just funded a nine hundred million dollar alone for a solar project in angola, Jordan, sixty percent of people in Angola. Don't even have electricity. Why, in the name of Jesus Marian Joseph would solar, project. They hit a natural gas power plant instead were funding solar and the eggs and vague presently said to help angola meet its climate commitments.

you can. You can be absolutely certain that the primary concern of the angolans is to meet their bloody climate, commit right. They ignore it's it's so interesting, watching the leftists, in particular on the environmental front rampage down this pathway, because There are the same idiot logs who constantly what conspire to accuse conservative in classic liberals of being colonialist in their endeavours and I've seen a more colonialist endeavour in my entire life than the attempt to pose climate concerns on the developing world. It is some- bloody miraculous to see it in to see the leftist sacrifice the poor to their eddie planetary concerns is is an absolutely it's an absolute bloody nightmare as far as I'm concerned, so this situation in Ghana sounds like its tailor made for that

kind of idiocy. So what? How is it? The case that solar power plant can become the number one concern on the international development front for angola like how good it, how did we get there? Well, how long do we have to it's a long history, but this it's been something- that's been ongoing now, four years where the world bank and the other ben multi Bilateral lending institutions are refusing to fund any hydrocarbon projects in developing countries, and this latest example is the angolan story. Where and president Biden bragged During a high dollar, fundraiser spoke at a high dollar fundraiser for the league of conservation voters in in june, and he brag about their single were building a huge solar plant in Angola? The average anchor sixty percent of the people in Angola. Don't have electricity at all and you're bragging about

in the in the export import bank brags in their press release about we're, helping Angola meet its climate commitments coming it's crazy town and it is a country that has an enormous natural gas and oil wealth which they should be allowed. Burn those hydrocarbons. This is its green colonialism, carbon imperialism. Green colonialism, daryl and numerous leaders. Numerous analyse have pointed this out, but I find it anathema. I mean electricity is the key to better life Everyone everywhere on the planet and This is effectively telling the the developing countries in one of the most desperately poor countries in africa. No, you can't burn hydrocarbons yeah, it's I I I think it's. I actually think it's criminal, it's criminal levels of stupidity to do this to the developing world, and so so tell me tell,

let's, let's go into your background debate, so that everybody whose watching listening knows little bit about you. So what are you run through your bike, biography and tell us all about how long you been writing and how you ve done your investigations. sure. Well, first things. First, I'm proud father and proudly married lauren. My have we been married for thirty seven years we have three great kids were empty, nesters it's a beautiful thing that we have three kids married, Michael and Jacob burned there all thriving, then a journalist, my whole career, I've. I've never had a real job. A reporter. My life, I wrote my first book on it on which came out in two thousand to now. twenty years ago I started my career newspaper in the austrian at the austro chronicle here in Austin. In the eighties that one lead to another led me into the book business in my book on IRAN is called pipe dreams. Greedy go in the death of enron came out now

and a half years ago, and I'm still writing about enron. In fact, these days so now, sir bush later. My latest is a question of power. Electricity and the wealth of nations have been very, for to have the same publisher. look affairs same editor, LISA, Kaufman, agent dan green all have been incredibly supportive and helpful. along the way? So I can or myself, incredibly fortunate jordan to be able to write about think about. Do a lot of public speaking on energy and power, these are the world's biggest industries. And most important businesses end up really now, where are they so many political issues round all of these things and so much focus on climate and renewables and and and and think there are some positive trends and I want to talk about those, but I see a lot of bad policy happening and particularly in europe and and here in the u s where europe has just driven itself into the ditch but yeah.

My brother yeah, I mean the rest of the world, seems hell bent on carpet copying. Let's say germany, which has had the most catastrophic energy and environment policies that you could possibly produce short of shutting down the entire grin, not least because what their energy prices are now to five times what they should be. They shut down their nuclear plants. Their energy provision is now unreliable there they are and on russia and other totalitarian states, further energy provision, energy is so expensive that electric car bat manufacturers moving from germany to China. Germany, de industrialized, because the energy prices are too high plus- and this is the kicker there are actually polluting more per kilowatt than they were fifteen years ago, because since they ve down there reasonable sources of electricity, including nuclear, which they import anyways from France. There now turn

burning lignite for god's sake, which is the dirtiest form of call confusing it. Insane I mean you couldn't make it up you just I'll. Give you one making or even one better to show you mention lignite the company, it's our debbie. If memory serves right as the big utility, so there expanding a lignite mine, so they can provide more. ignite, which is a low rate coal emits more seo, per kilowatt hour than any other form of power generation. Henchmen spend the lignite, my Jordan. They took down a wind project. It may not be so we are so we are the irony, is just remarkable, but to your point: yes, germany has more than any other country in Europe has driven itself into the ditch. They did it to themselves, and putting themselves on the back. I mean it. None of it makes any sense to its did. They respond seems to be well. We didn't do stupid things fast enough So, let's hurry up. Let's drivers,

faster into the ditch, but yet in the current girl was them shutting down their last nuclear plants. They knew they were, but we're short natural gas They knew they were now. We were no longer going to be able to import as much gas from russia show, they do. They went into the global energy market and they ve snapped up as many elegy cargoes and and future contracts as they could and in doing what did they do, which will not only did they are they burning more lignite, more coal to your point, but they also priced out a lot of developing a lot of developing countries from importing liquefied natural gas split among them, Pakistan, which is remarkable because pakistan in February and ass were done with the Ellen g business, we're going to burn gonna burn coal, and so the pakistanis or nothing we're going to expand our coal fired capacity. So it's not just This is affecting germany, its having knock on effects in the developing world, well, you know- and the german chancellor came over to visit already at country and he asked trot

if there was any possibility of increasingly liquid natural gas imports from canada, and, of course, trudeau has done everything he can for the last ten years to absolutely devastate the canadian or oil and gas industry and to make the experts of liquid natural gas impossible, and so trudeau said well. We can't make a business case for that, which is exactly the same bloody thing that he said japanese leader came and asked for the same thing and the reason that he can't make a business case, for it is because his government has produced policies that have made the sport of canadian fossil fuel resources which are among the cleanest in the world impossible, and so so. I'd like I I don't understand how the hell can be happening in germany, I mean I'm, I'm not a cynic, although you know whatever naive optimism, I had about political process, certainly been abuse, but everything that is happening in german.

Is so stupid on the energy front that it's a kind of miracle, especially because you know you could give the damn devils their due if they were able to say while we made electricity, five times is expensive, but we ve cut emissions by a certain proportion and here's the net environment benefit which all of which, I think is complete bs by the way, but if they could say, that well, that would be something, but for them to also have to say, well we'd made electricity five times more expensive and unreliable plus we pollute more, it's like theirs. Zero victory. That's f, minus man. You guys failed on every bloody front, including the ones you set up as your own principles and yet nothing seems to happen and, as you said, you know, Biden can come out and and sir his agreement with angola to produce a kind of electricity. They don't need added tremendously. Elevated price will engage in this neo colonial enterprise, like I can't believe we

be this stupid. I can understand how this could happen. Obviously germany is this classic example of what not to do which remove? couple is what's happening here in the united states, where california is following, this example straight the ditch a more than any other state in the? U S, California, emulated these policies of of mandating renewables of shutting down a base load power plants. They shut down satin over nuclear plant a few years ago. They also- succeeded in closing diablo canyon that were newsome. Maybe you think finally show Abbott said: no, we need this plant forget that its nuclear nine percent of our electorate generation production in california, look at what is happening. A similar story, jordan for all of us, effort and all the money that the color of the california has spent. They ve seen no reduction in their overall emissions from their from their electorate generation sector. Further, we have seen their electric prices rise faster than any other state in the united states. Since

thousand eight and I've written about this on. My sub stack schwarzenegger signed in a renewable energy mandate in two thousand eight since then California, your great had gone up at a rate three times faster than that of the average in the united states. Its unkind noble what they're doing jordan, and this is in a state that is dominated by the democratic party- the look those who say they care about the poor in the middle class, and yet this- and this is as my late brother, John bright, suggest, grills my cheese. I mean that, ruinously regressive, for now has the highest poverty rate in america, Jordan, and yet they are sticking to the poor in the middle class in a big way, and it were then the peak electric rates in california, now forty fifty cents a kilowatt hour, meaning just fine. If you live in a nice house, it's on san francisco bay, but the the low income people do live there. They can afford to live there. They live inland where they have to use air conditioning, show all of this climate I have to say very clearly, nearly all

this climate policy, whether mandates for electric cars or the renewable mandates rooftops over it. It's ruinously regressive. Its screws, the poor in the middle class, I've been absolutely stun to watch the left in their rampage to sacrifice the poor to two to fail. to save the planet, you know it's almost as unconscionable to me as the fact that the laughed again climbed in bed with the pharmaceutical companies so radically on the on the on the pandemic front. You know, I mean there's lots of things to be said in relationship to the so called pandemic, which I also I don't believe in by the way, because I think it was a pandemic of totalitarian overreaction and not a pandemic of illness, but the fact that the left itself was so supportive of the pharmaceutical companies was something just absolutely staggering to see and to see the left

go after the poor so assiduously. My understanding is this. You tell me what you think about this is that if you really cared for poor people and you wanted their lives to improve? The best thing you could possibly do as far as I can tell us to lower, is to drive energy costs down to the lowest possible level and to make energy provision your number one priority everywhere, especially developing world, but also for the poor in the west? And the reason for that is that there is. There is no difference between, energy and work, and there is no doubt between work and productivity. Now you might say two things you might respond. While the planet has too many people on it, we can encourage that sort of thing, and if you make people rich, then the rich people destroyed faster, but both of those things are nonsense because we ve seen a massive increase in population over forty years and all the bloody doomsayers like Paul Ehrlich, who has more since on his conscience than anyone else. I can possibly think of has said that by the year two thousand

we were going to be out of commodities and everybody was going to be starving to death and work. of commodities, and there are a lot cheaper and we have more food and people only starved to death for political reasons and ass, we ve got more people, we ve actually got richer. So that's all bloody, complete backwards, nonsense, and then not only. That is that the data that I've looked out and I've looked at it with bjorn limburger through his eyes- is that if you can get people in developing world up do about five thousand dollars a year in gross domestic product on average they start during a long term view of the future and start becoming can learned about local environmental issues and will take that burden onto themselves so that top down centralists globalist, utopians don't have to force, all this idiocy on so like am, I missed. Something here layla. You know if I gone down somebody rightwing, rapid hole or is this? Is this just the start in a world filled with uncertainties, its crucial to be ready for whatever comes your way, whether its

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with petersen dotcom right now. That's prepare with petersen dotcom. So I think the key for me, Jordan, and all of this discussion is electric availability? And this is yes, energy and general matters, but more swiss firstly, its electricity and let me get on one point that I think is critical. When we talk about compassionately talk about humanism, because my favorite line. These days is energy. Realism is energy humanism, and when we're going to be right just think about energy and we're gonna be energy human. Us. We have to look at the lens. of energy and energy availability in particular and how it affects women and girls electricity? these women and girls from the pump, the stove and the wash tub. You remember that The new deal are sure the? U s when they wanted to bring it back. finally, to rural areas, many of you politicians, george norris, sam rayburn. george norris from nebraska sam raven from texas Lyndon Johnson from Texas there.

Seen their their mothers wash close by hand. They wanted two been liberated from from the front wash tub, they see this kind of back breaking labour, and this is the key there, something like that, who's. The the swedish demographers recently died the estimated there were five billion people in the world today? Why king around in enclosed that have been washed by hand but let me first yes Oh now she's. What is his light? What's his first name, hans rustlings, forgive me has hardly yes heads rustling really did. That is really really at eight. Did that amazing? He video, I think he gave a ted talk where he was talking about his gun, mother and grandmother his folks had bought a washing machine as grandmother came over when they this time they use the washing machine and she wanted to start it right, because It was a miracle to her. He said that, in fact, is the washing machine to my grandmother. Was a miracle show when we think about electricity and energy availability. This is

key for women and girls, because if they dont have it there, effectively slaves to the household chores and so roughly hounds roslin point five billion when the world today are walking around enclosed. It have been washed by had. That means there too, billion women and girls who were wash those close by hand at every minute every hour, every day that they're not that their washing closed by had there not in the library there not in schools, are not able to get a job outside the home. So there is no, not contributing their brain power to the rest of us in other large, and can you imagine the economic value of two billion brains thither Biden, menial labour that could otherwise be freed up. I mean there's, there's too women in that groups that are one in a million. You know and that's just he's level man? We could use those people and the fact that that we're locking up that that degree of- rural architecture in these menial task to not save the planet, well we're making.

electricity more unreliable and more expensive is just its if its absolute it's beyond incompetence into the realm of absolutely criminal. As far as I'm concerned, its just it's cool, it's an atomic, its its limits and excessive focus. I think on the look. Here's my life, climate change is a concern. It's not our only concern we have to balance action on climate with our other, issues, but the over point. I think that is absolutely essential. Is that guard us of what we think what you and I think about co2 emissions and how many parts per million is the perfect number if we're facing more extreme weather, hotter, colder, more stream. Longer I mean it's been crazy, hot here in texas. Will, if that's the case, we're going to need a lot more energy, not less we're gonna need a lot more reliable energy, not less, and yet The trends are for

ever to rely more on whether dependent renewables sophie. That's the other parts, Jordan, this, if we're facing more extreme weather, why the world. Would we make our most important energy network dependent on the weather is like He said that it makes no sense, I mean I want to get to ten, but that's just crazy town. Let's walk through this can't do it. So I should like you to push back on me as much as you could. So this is what I've watched In the course of my lifetime, so in the nineteen seventies. We were going to run out of fossil fuels, and that was a big bloody catastrophe forever for about six years after nineteen, seventy two and the energy crisis, and that turned out to be complete rubbish, we're not running out of fossil fuels, and we will partly I mean I think it was x two weeks ago- announced that they had a new friend in technology that can double the known store of fossil fuels in the EU. Which is. Why should have been front page headline news everywhere, because, oh, my god, we have twice as many fossil fuels as we thought, and so

that really something and the you americans have become absolute bloody magicians at extracting out fossil fuel from these huge reserves that you have like the shale beds and its run out and that's partly because as the prey goes up. People's incentives to do to extract out even more of the fossil fuel reserves. We know are their increases and the technology geniuses. Get better and better at doing it. So we're not gonna run on fossil fuel. That's not gonna happen. That was wrong. Ok! Next, the next thing that in the nineteen seventys, is our global cooling? Were the planet freeze- and that happened for about five years, and then that turned out to be nonsense and then the next thing that happened was global warming, then that turned out to be not true enough to be sustainable and somehow the narrative switch to oh well, it it's cool a change now, and that is one wheezy proposition man, it's like oh chain

So now you have a good out of jail, free carved for all of your idiot policies because of the climate is changing that means increased variability. Now I've looked at the data on hurricane frequency, for example. There is no evidence whatsoever that hurricanes are increasing in frequency and to the degree if they're more expensive. It's only because people are building more and more expensive properties in her Brazil's then we also have nor data showing that, even if we accept the ipcc, if predictions, and I don't necessarily think we should that we will be. you know some degree poorer, then much richer. We would have been a hundred years from now right, and so he we can handle that no problem with it with an iota of intelligence and some Then I'm wondering, do you tell me what you think about this? I've been watching the greening data. Now the wine have green fifteen percent since the year two thousand

and that is a law. It's an area of leave twice the size of the continental. U s! That's a lot of extra leaves and interestingly enough its green in exactly the areas that the climate catastrophe has told us would be it at most risk because I presume that the semi arid areas the arid areas, would expand out. To the semi, arid areas and the deserts would grow while the desert isn't growing The sahara is actually shrinking, especially on the south end and the reasoning. Drinking is because more carbon dioxide has allowed plants to thrive and when they thrive they can close the breathing pours, which means they don't need as much water, and now there in semi arid areas all over the world class, crop yields have gone up. So like What will happen is only let you have a mayor, because I think I'm not from there all the data, your beer, beer, throwing out there- and I know these arguments and here's how I he's my sanity, Jordan. Is it I dont I dont get

to that. We know what is how many parts per million is the right number. I think we can all you about the climate science will. My approach is very simple: look if we're going, to agree that we need to do something. What's the best policy right, if, as I said, the changes are concerned? It's not our only concern. So what is the way forward? What are we if we accept we are facing some risk. How do we deal with risk, what is the best? No regrets policy, so I've been now for more than a dozen years natural gas to nuclear. This is the way forward, and this is the part that just you know, as I said my cheese chaps, my hide on this Angola deal on my subject: robert bryce not subject outcome. Let them eat solar panels right that the export import The united states is not funding a natural gas fired power plant in Angola. Even though Angola has trillions of cubic feet of of available natural gas instead funding a solar panel project. I mean this makes no sense whatsoever. Show

we're serious about reducing emissions and bringing more people out of the dark and into the light which I think is incumbent on the web. the countries to help developing countries do that how to do that natural. resources globally. Jordan are just there not abundant their superabundant. Their geographic widespread and, and there is an enormous amount of stranded gas look at huge offshore fields that have been discovered off of africa. Tanzania. The other countries, including Angola, enormous natural gas resources that have barely been tat was seven that gas export into the global market in europe and advanced country that developed countries, but workers should be using those resources and to prevent them from so. I think it's just as you say, I think it's morally wrong. I think it's it's a now that I'm it it should be. People should be shouting from them, stop saying no, we should be in these countries come out of the dark. We should be helping them develop because that's in company on our. It was getting in their way, or at least

I'm getting in their way, so that natural gas to nuclear I'll. Just finish this other point, this is the things that again to me. When I look at these big climate ngos, I don't call them environmental groups, I don't call them bring It's because I don't think they are either their ngos to their climate activist groups and by the way they're spending four and a half billion dollars a year have documented this. That's their budgets are just enormous, but they're almost to a almost all of them are anti nuclear will, if we're sure, it's about seo to you. I mean it's no sit might model. is your anti carbon dioxide and anti nuclear. Your pro blackout outside blackout, zero, looting prose starvation. Well right, so we to be helping develop this technology, and these are the things I think our positive. Now we can, we can focus on a lot of things that are negative and I will gradually there are many negative things that are happening and we can throw rocks it, ngos and all the climate idiocy that's happening in terms of this are the

the policy. It is getting a sea rather around this. What we are seeing in the wake of the russia. Ukraine word that I think, is really encouraging. Jordan is a bad move toward nuclear romania countries of fans, just finland just out and aka louis? Oh just sweden, just said we're. Gonna both were were bag, Our renewable push we're going to build nuclear plants. Just yes, Would you twenty nine media, in france. Should we're gonna build two more nuclear reactors? The? U s? tremendous amount of momentum and money behind new nuclear. Now there are a lot of friction points, including few availability because the russians have are by producing food. Six percent. I think over we percent of the global uranium enrichment market is got one, has the biggest uranium reserves in the world and their bloody untouched and in our immediate country you know we have all these some fuel reserves, but we have, we have tremendous stores of of of nuclear

who is well of uranium, and Canada has good nuclear technology that can do reactor is a good report and and It is another good story and work out. A new documentary. It's gonna be out this false called juice power policy, from the grid and one of the debate. Or featuring as one of the canadian colleagues Chris Keefer, has remark we'll job in this vital asean of the canadian nuclear sector that you're you're going to read. from your can do reactors your building, an essay more. I think at Darlington, whether be ex br ex three hundred, so I won't say all data to doktor Keefer he's a remarkable story by themselves yet emerge as you have him ever podcast yesterday, I owe you what is in touch with you postcode? How absolutely no he's he's got, He's got a lot of elvers. She six feet. Nine he's just this big presence, but he almost single handedly, Jordan has it. He has ignited this

rebirth in canadian nuclear, and it's been a marvel so that canadian gonna Canada rather has kind of jumped into the lead. But it's not so Canada, romania, cha cha, as building dozens of reactors? The russians are still pushing out there, their technology, Britain, France, Poland roommate, romania mention romania, so there is, amidst all the crazy town, that's happening. The one Thinking that is positive. That occurred in the wake of russia's invasion of ukraine is an is a recognition. If we're serious about reducing emissions or just a more serious about not covering the the I skip littering the landscape with this stupid in in solar panels we're going to embrace nuclear. So I think that's a lie a positive thing that is happening and one that I want is aware. Wear so well, and where do you see? Where are you particularly optimistic on the nuclear technology front? You

do you think of small modular reactors and the molten salt technologies and so forth, and people seem to be it might. Might my sense is that the way forward is something like Standardized production of small modular nuclear reactors so that the cost per unit can be brought down and so that the systems distributed without having to build an immense amount of high of of light transmission wires. So, but I dont like I'm, I'm trying to get up to speed on that, but but am not precisely so. Where are you particularly optimistic on the nuclear issue? so it will like you. I see a lot of promise with nuclear in general. So what about alzheimer's, which a small modular reactors there are a lot of time. policies that are being developed now and above a bunch of different companies that are pushing to master the g g, Hitachi gale here in the? U S, actual action: energy, cairo's o blow It remains to be seen, which one would be the one that makes it to market but

among the most interesting ones. To me, Jordan is ex energy. That's a high temperature gas reactor, they just recently that a deal with dow and now announced in fact dow I think, took an equity position and x energy and they are planning to deploy sphere. There s a mars at one of their coming at doubts chemical plant in cedar, if taxes, which is fairly close to corpus Firstly, if memory serves, would kill me interesting about that one of the high temperature gas right. So that's us! for design, inherently, then then than a water based reactor. Second that damage looking at this endows an old line. Chemical company were very conservative. There look at this sitting. We think this is the right. knowledge and further they're, saying we're. Gonna use the high temperature process heat, so we can make Chemicals, instead of burning gas to produce high temperature write to me Are we actually also has that additional advantage, wrangling through you want to walk through that? Why that's important

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he s. S baby and dont come slash Jordan and get three extra months. Three x three began: dotcom slashed, Jordan, people well sure so. Industrial process heat is needed for a lot of different things, right, refining, mining, chemical production, Oh industrial consumers use a lot of electricity is a lot of of energy in general. So if you have a source of high temperature heat. Then you could produce high your steam and then use that for your processing of whatever it is that you're doing so, her down to make this deal with ex energy, I think, is indicative of where the market, the industrial consumers, are seeing things, how they see the market moving right, and so that's quite intriguing, also. The rolls royce might be an interesting play, an end or the brick. Britain now is technology the right when we don't know yet. I think we're kind of in the I'd compare it. Maybe the early days of videos. You gotta be VHF s first, it gotta be betamax right, as you know, and

one will prevail, but I think general idea that we should have one or two designs is the right one right. That is why France was so successful in deploying nuclear. They pick one nuclear reactor design, and then they just stamped about so that any engineer from any nuclear plant in france can go work at another plan because all instrumentation all every all? This equipment is the same I didn't know this until I with the paris a few years ago- and I was shocked to a nuclear engineer in france- and he said at three mile island- which of course is a nuclear plant where he had an action of here in the u S, there were two reactors, but the two reactors two different control rooms, because there are built by two different companies will that makes no sense at all right. So if going to see a new new renaissance of nuclear they're alive friction point shall talk about those in a minute, but we're going to have to say the regulatory regime, and that me the nuclear regulatory commission here in the? U s,

some: u S, companies domicile and canada because they think it's eat what will be easier path licensure if they stop. in canada. Then come back to the? U s! Reading. Appeared are gonna, have a different type of four of of licensing procedures and the? U S, the in our seas are big roadblocks. The other the fuel part. So this is where I think the friction parts are, and I wanna be very sober about this. jordan, because I was in japan- earlier this year is very fortunate them very lucky in my career to be The travel and sees things and I went to phuket emma daiichi, It will pursue indelible experience. For me, I've been pro nuclear for more than a decade, but Seeing the ruined reactors at fukushima daiichi an air hang the people from Tokyo, electric power company talk about how their taking the reactors slowly in the process of their going through and what they're doing and then seeing what is actually happening in Japan as well kept going building coal fired power plants on Tokyo bay. japanese are embracing energy realism, the home of the kyoto protocol. There,

aiming at net zero that we met with gonna talk government officials when we met with industry officials should show what about your carbon emissions. They said. Yes, we're not we're not. Gonna pursue those were pursuing energy security first and I had one I just say very clearly: look we live in a bad neighbourhood. We get the rush. over there, the chinese over there, the north koreans over there. We are going to take care our energy security first. So I think Japan and more than any other country in my recent experiences- and it is a is an indicator of How energy, realism and energy security is tramping concerns about climate change- and I think rightly so. The japanese are nothing if not practical, so their building one point gigawatt coal fired power plant on Tokyo bay, also building another five hundred megawatts ultra super critical Coal fired power plants forgot where that when his and another five gigawatts of gas fired capacity, so their slowly reopening their nuclear reactors, but there also, very diverse there. Also

clear, eyed about where they are going in the world, and they are saying energy security is our first concern and we're gonna take care of that because our industry demands it, and so I ve been, everybody needs- are doing the same thing I mean the child's are planning, I think, a hundred nuclear plants, something like that over the coming decades. There are also expanding their coal fired plants like mad with joy, is right, absolute bloody mockery of anything we're doing in the west on the so called climate front, because, especially in account, like canada, where are our emissions, are so trivial on the world stage they're, not they're, not even within the error margin of of estimate for for carbon dioxide effects, and that's a nice and that's a critical point that I think that in I've heard of people say, there's not original to me, but emissions from the west in many ways, don't matter anymore, because the story is in places like vietnam, bangladesh, pakistan, india, china, these the places where emissions are growing so rapidly, and in fact I spend a lot

time I nerd out on spreadsheets and I'd that statistical review of world energy just came out, so I ve been so get very closely the country that is the biggest and absolute terms, the biggest increase in co2 emissions last year was indonesia, followed closely by india so These are countries that have enormous populations and are are still desperately energy poor But let me return. I will wait until nigeria kicks in you know: nigeria's gonna have more people in it than china, by the end of the century. A so and and your point that we are seeing the huge growth in in energy consumption among the countries with the largest populations it's like, while that I we bloody self evident. Isn't it once those countries start to pass a certain threshold of industrial development? That is where all the action is going to be on the climate energy front, and so we should be. For that- and you know it. nom is a good example of this and I've written about vietnam as well recently. On my subject, that here's a cat,

that is rapidly industrialized being made Industrial companies are moving to vietnam to hedge, their beds that being in china, so big companies I got data samsung apple, to name a few, locating and suddenly vietnam is power short. So what did vietnam just announced their visa, Oh man reserved their state owned mining company and now you're going to expand their coal mining capacity by fifteen percent. this is the iron. This is the iron law of electricity. What I call the iron law of not my friend, roger Piercy junior coined the iron while climate he said when faced between his his his focus was placed between policy and economic growth. Economic growth will win every time. Show I borrowed auditors idea and point. The iron law of electricity, which is people can businesses will do whatever they have to do to get the electricity. They need climate changes Their first concern- and this was evident in japan. This was the part that really was a sobering experience is going to japan, but I've seen it my

I see people in india, stealing electricity in Beirut, where I talk about that I write about it in my book the generator mafia, where prick pretty much. Everyone in lebanon pays to electric bills, one to adsl that the grid operator and the other to the generator mafia, who are the local entrepreneurs. They call him the mob. They call him the mafia, but their pro in power when the grid fails. Eleven on the grid fails eleven on every day. So this this iron electricity, I think, is another example. In my view, we have to be less energy realism as energy humanism, people. do whatever they have to do, because they are gonna sit in the dark, they're, not gonna, let there you know the the the that the food in the fridge the spoil they're gonna find a small generator. There goes the other also here, also not to let grandma freeze to death in the way to remain. I looked at dawn berg's data, on the consequences of lowering thermostat temperatures just a few degrees and the estimated, for example, that a three- if I remember

correctly. This is about right that a three degree decrease in thermostat temperature. The winter kills a hundred and ten thousand people in europe. As old people in know, all people can't raise your temperature very well, and so, with with these two things, we need to point out to everyone whose watching and listening The first is that if you raise energy costs, imagine that there's a pyramid of it of economic development and there's hundreds millions or billions of people who are sitting right on the threshold of poverty. They climbed out of absolute poverty. So now they have enough money so that they dont have worry about where lunch is coming from, but that's just where the rat and their barely there and if you increase their energy. cause to any degree at all. All you do is wakeham down back down into absolute abject poverty and they They do things like slash and burn agriculture and they burn dung and and and other you know, very low energy dance,

highly polluting or I followed it feels yeah we're right in the end, they may pollute the under atmosphere and now really really hard on their kids and their elderly people as well, and so you cannot, we got say this over and over. You cannot raise energy prices without devastating the poor period. The end ended and the more poor people you make far as I can tell the worst. Things are actually for the planet rather than the better, and that this brings us you another conundrum. You know you pointed out that the green types tend not only to be anti natural gas, which is, of course completely insane, but also anti nuclear. And this point fundamental. Underlying motivation as far as I'm concerned is that this green movement isn't so much green, certainly not as a consequence of the fruits of is born.

It is both anti industrial and anti human and those actually turn out to be the same thing, and you can tell in these when push comes to shove cases, because The bloody greens, if they were actually concerned about carbon dioxide output, which is what they say we should only be concerned about, would be, coming on board. The nuclear wagon bandwagon second saying: well, obviously, we should transition to nuclear because its zero carbon dioxide output and that's not happening so that means as far as I'm concerned that everything that there are four metal narrative, is a delusional lie he's gotta malevolent twist in two and you can that manifesting itself in the refusal of these western in goes in and the world bank and so forth to lend money to developing countries to try to raise them out of poverty, which is inexcusable. there's a certain. Well, you know this field better than I, but that there is a certain puritanical part of this right and a certain also I think, a religious fundamentalism and- and I'm sure other people have talked.

Just before I know, but there There- are many overlaps between the christian belief and and ideas around climate catastrophism right that the that we and against the earth right. We have sinned against god with sinned against the earth. We need to repent, we need to you less do less and go back to the garden right and even martin luther to followed you, no good, keep going on this just and hair longer. He would recognise carbon credit right here, but when you get a carbon indulgence, bye bye, some offset because new flew to fiji. But let me just bill on your point about the availability of hydrocarbons and how important it is and kirk smith was faster at cow berkeley who died recently, and I cited him I think in my late fucker and enlightenment forthwith power hungry, but he documented and was among the first researchers to document the effects of indoor air pollution on wine. and girls, and you know I was

interviewing our climate activists yesterday and by the way I don't call at green energy, I don't call them green. I call them climate activists green energy- I don't cleaner Joe called it all to energy right, because I don't think it's green, dig exclaimed covering the light scope of solar panels, strong landscapes with wind with wind turbines, I'm a long time critic when business proudly show they don't like me, I don't like them back because I have you know I've documented now more than ten years and on the renewable rejection database, which is on my website, Robert brushed outcome, have documented four hundred rejections of wind energy in the: u s from maine to hawaii it's happening and a two by the way in ontario over ninety communities have declared themselves unwilling hosts to wind energy. Now you don't read, this new york times because it doesn't fit the narrative. Digress so back to the point about hydrocarbons, encouragement in air pollution is one of the leading killers of women and girls in developing countries, Kirk Psmith an end,

ba joe. I think world health organisation documents something like three or four million women, a year, women and girls you're dying premature death because of indoor air pollution, because their cooking with dung wheat straw in their homes and in an incorrect made this point they need l, p e g, they need beauty, medium propane. They need clean, forget electricity for just a minute. Let's reply those low those low density fuels at low birth. Low density, high, polluting fuels with hydrocarbon that's a step change in their standards of living, and so you know I'm with you in terms of kind of your broader points, you're, we need more energy, not less wheat choke, and an hour. I will stop here because I could go on and around the table here, but expensive energy is the enemy of the poor and I remember very vividly I live in Austin, which is of course you know. I I to have friends here too liberal hub right, but a friend of mine on the former.

points of mine. He was found table our energies to cheap, and I thought okay, here, you are you vacation. You fly around the world. You go summer here there and everywhere you're rich and you're telling me energy Stu cheap? I don't see it that way and I I'm a doctor in a long time because of that, because I just thought you don't understand what you're talking about expensive energy is the enemy of the poor. So many of these policies, both in the developed countries and the developing countries, are aimed and by these bilateral multilateral lenders by policy makers at state level at federal level are aiming that are creating sees that make energy more expensive and I just think that's just fundamentally wrong. we entered. She means life in the absence of energy is deaf. To quote my friend Duma. Are you tired of buying products from woke companies, the hate, your guts and your values? Will now you don't have to join the over when a thousand americans who have made the switch to journeys razors get your razors hair care soap. more at germany's razors dotcom today,

and we sell he him and she her chocolate bar says well, one of them has nuts. I started to take this, who domain of trouble particularly seriously when watching what was happening in Europe and starting to understand that the west, in its delusions of repentance, would sacrifice hundreds of millions of people and literally sacrifice them on the altar of gaia to not save the planet. While virtue is signalling about how industry in the industrial enterprise was unethical, despite benefiting from every single one of the gains that the industrial revolution has produced and being one hundred percent absolutely unwilling to give up any of it at all whatsoever under any circumstances. For ourselves like there's no excuse for any of that now. My understanding is this is that we there's a pretty clear developmental pathway to

cleaner and more reliable energy in the long run. It's something like well, you start the very lowest wrong with with dung and with its drawn with those things that end with wood. Scrap would so forth that can be burned. Stare the local environment and its low energy. Danced it's expensive runs out easily its unreliable, its polluting. You move from that to call you to call because call is unbelievably plentiful and its dirt cheap and you get a coal fired plant up and running with relatively rich century technology in almost no time flat and its disadvantage in particular, is particulate pollution, although it also produces load of carbon, which I don't really care about, but the particular pollution is problem. You move from that to oil or natural gas, any move from now to nuclear like we know this or or not. Is this just like it? It can. Can we rest assured, This is a reasonable developmental pathway and one that we should be pursuing.

This is the way it's been happening for a long time. Now I mean that is the way the world has de carbonized over time. my friend, jesse, also belet, rockerfeller unit rockefeller university has documented this end, and shown we are gradually de carbonizing, but that do carbon is happening. It has, as is under way in developed countries, and were there be no of under developed countries that are just getting started right there still at the buyer, stage, and theirs is this claim: oh, will weaken leap frog. They can the altar energy crowd the climate. Ouch has, or will they don't need hydrocarbons or jump right to renewables? No wrong. I mean That's true, in some cases and in rural areas where the solar and batteries are going to be the solution. Africa is right, the urban eyes and ears a quick, quick comparison, so you're, a canadian! Is you of terms. There are thirty five million canadians they use compared to one point four billion after

roughly the same amount of electricity. That's that asperity that we're talking about There's no numbers art exact, but in rough terms that's a comparison. Show the me for electricity is overwhelming globally, Jordan has just enormous show. How do we, This is the part where that we can talk climate change all day long. What's the right number what's wrong? Number! What there you know who's, do I think his ranting? What's the best known Great strategy. As we look to the future- and I think again of end to end natural gas or nuclear. These are the ways that we are that no regressed, okay, so climb, if maybe we find in of years. While we were wrong about climate change, I don't necessarily not making that argument, but when the why natural gas or nuclear both are lower. No carbon technology. Are very well developed. There available in numerous countries, and they can scale at relic low cost, so all of those things too further to me and make the said no brainer and

upon the table? Continue pounding the table on that, because this is The challenge of our time I mean, when we look around the world this when we look around the world and we think it as in a going to be human us? What we do to help developing countries come out of, Are to develop what do we? How do we help countries like vietnam they're going to lie gout for vietnam, first that then you know every country is going to do what is the right pathway for them so how does how could the? U s, how could the cow can canada? How could with the euro countries help. Those countries will help them to develop their natural gas and help them a ploy nuclear energy at scale nugent, generation passively safe modular reactors. These are the things that are going to help us de carbon

and electrify these countries that are so desperately poor right now, let's turn to two things here. I sure I would like. First of all, I would like to pick your brain momentarily about coal yeah. There's lots of coal and so, if we can figure out how to use that call. That would be real good because there's lots of it and it's everywhere, and so how are we doing on the clean coal front? How good are there? Are the modern coal fired plants it well, so, for example, getting rid of particulate pollution, sure well I'll make a joke first, which I think clean coal, is kind of actually more actually moronic like military? intelligence or family vacation rider, jumping shrimp right. You can make cleaner coal and so I mentioned Japan earlier, their building new coal fired. Our plants. What are they doing their using ultra super critical technology, which is that the high

level of combustion, get we ring more watt hours for every kilogram of coal that you burn, so that is the optimum If we're going to burn coal, let's get used ultra super critical technology, but that's more expensive, not. All countries are willing to do that and stay building sub critical plants, which are the most common ones. Think I would be a place for potential subsidy than to help the country lighter building coal plants build better ones, absent like haired but which I think, but I think it's important to put it in historical context, so I'm I've written about the history this one of the points I make an question powers. When you look at edison in eighteen, they too will he use coal on is on the pearl street station lower manhattan. He burned call right, still now, one hundred and forty years hundred and forty one years later, coal, globally still as thirty five percent of the global electric sector market right. So an inhuman in china before

but energy monitor, which is clearly an anti coal group. In in february, I put out a report. Last year, china permitted to new coal plants a week right right, so India is building new coal plants. Bangladesh, vietnam, numerous other countries, indonesia entities, had, as I mentioned before, has the highest biggest increase in co2 emissions last year of any country in the world. Why? Because they happily expanded their costly to call it here to stay for decades to come. That is a fact these plants that are being built now are going to continue running, so you know as you know, well cheering on the closure of our coal plants. Will, I think, that's probably pro magic in terms of reliability, but that's a different discussion. But of course it is geographically, widespread widespread. Its what chiefly cheap and its superabundant. So that is why should those countries, if we close or the bloody coal plants in the west and also means that we won't be able to put our technological progress to work to make the coal plants cleaner?

also means it'll knock a sort of the international market for the development of coal fired plants which, as you pointed out, is gonna, be a growth industry. For you know in the foreseeable future. So it seems like a stupid idea to me all things considered, and I dont know necessarily about that, because there are a lot of companies that have that kind of technology that can deploy the japanese, the malaysia's the Chinese, but but the key here is just to think about it in know its a we'll story right and if we're going to it's, not it's not x is warming, it's not canada, warming or america. What its global warming, its global climate change, we're going to deal with this. We have to have some say mobility ability about the the that the world the collection of nations that want to try and addressed as well. What is it to be the weight of its? What is the way forward them? It's going to be to make cleaner electricity cheaper and I think that means match natural, natural gas or nuclear. Well, we could run

panicking about the sky falling, even though it isn't than we could lie constantly about net zero and make everyone poor and we can hurt. The hell out of the third world will not doing anything on the climate front instead, which seems to be what we're doing you know. These net zero advocates first that in turn that entire, what terminology just great saw me- it's like there is like Net Zero is equally shea, not a policy and zero. Anything is impossible because we're not gonna get to zero carbon output. Obvious the ever and we shouldn't even aim at that because it stupid you know even We can only, but I believe that would be fine, but that narrative is running out, though I think I you know, if you look at what's happening in europe, I think the politicians, particularly in germany we talked about germany earlier- came to the uk as well. They're looking for zing, you know we're not going to make net zero This is we're. Gonna have to throttle this back german green party, has been as law some remarkable over the recent elections

shall lacked the german good pilot at the german voters are looking around at this nursing wait a minute. This is terrible for us, so I think from this, that another pie sign, in addition to the expansion of nuclear, we're seeing more energy realism and think thank the lord for I mean it's gonna while yet alright. So let's talk about. Let's take another attack on the environmental front. Now you ve richer rather extensively about the dangers, the environmental dangers of wind power- and you are also well you you made a crack earlier about. Let them eat solar panels, and so you obviously have some misgivings on the solar front, so start with on the wind front, so my unsure of ending debt and I'm going to lay out a few things and tell me if I'm right or wrong. So, first of all, siemens last week to week go announced that they are having catastrophic in, I think see, oh said something like I can't

leave how catastrophic our problems are with our wind turbines. That's not a good thing for a ceo to say that turbans, their unreliable. They obviously don't work when the wind is blowing, which is quite a lot of the time. That's really a problem at night when the solar panels also to work. There they dont have proven track record. They only seem too asked about seventeen years god. Nobody knows what to do with them when their decommissioned in their very expensive to decommission, they're, killing whales, mad hypothetically, they seem to be really hard on birds, and so this just isn't working out very well and so now am I missing something on the wind front and then we could turn now you get pretty All of the issues here, let's that wales, aside, let's set at the wildlife issues inside I'm an avid bird watcher, and this again is one area that just absolutely just I it is it's unbelievable chip. You know that the wind industry, gets a pass when it comes.

The killing some of our most iconic wildlife, including bold and golden eagle, spit, set that aside for a minute. Let's talk about just basic physics, so one of the key ways that the essential he's too you're standing. Our energy and power systems is to look at the physics metric of power density show what high power density, that's one reason why I shall pro nuclear super high power density. We're talking. Two thousand watch purse or meter roughly show energy the ability to do work powers, the rate at which work gets tat or about energy is the ability to work that's right powers, the rate at which work gets done. We measure power and watched, so we want high watts per square metre. Nuclear We cannot allow splain that a bit more explicit, walk right, buddy three, when energy density meets because in some shirts sophisticated concept, and yet it is evil. To understand it and in its connected to be clear, its power density What is power as a measure of energy flow, its measured and watch, so you have different kinds of

Our density and and power is a measure of energy flow. Ok, so you can it barrels of oil in the ground, our energy barrels per day. Power? We need energy is worthless unless we can make it flow and the more we can make it flow. The better shall we, what more power flow, which is watch so our density is a measure of energy flow from a given area volume or mass and you're right. It's Well understood fairly, simple in physics terms but its essential to understand it because power, density determines the shape of our energy and power systems everywhere, always all the time period. Ok, So we want high powered density sources. Ethanol is it's ordinarily low because it relies on on on on photosynthesis about one tenth of a white per square. wind energy, I don't care where you put it as one. What per square metre period story, Elvis's left the building one, what per square meter,

or is better about ten watch per square metre. So if I may take my renewables. Attic solar has more attributes better attributes than when, okay so What do we see, though, because of this low power density with wind, choirs enormous amounts of land, so limited when it requires enormous amounts of land? Will you impacting more people and the more you the only way to expand the output wind is to capture more land, it's axiomatic, so to give you and and as an analysis, votes smell of your fellow canadian has written about this here, made it back in two thousand and ten two for the? U s to meet its electric demands with wind. Require land area twice the size of the state of california. About eight years ago, I'm sorry, eight years later Keith and Lee miller at harvard did a similar analysis came up with the same number. If you

generate all the electricity in the: u s with wind energy, you need a land area of nine hundred thousand square kilometers. Twice this. As the state of california. Ok, that's clear, just Jenkins princeton recently wrote a peace and been in and mother jones, again saying that the footprint Wind energy is massive me. This is a part bottom jordan. I spend it. at a time in rural america and I to these people, I was in traveling meet these people that some of them become my friends there rural landowners, rural farmers were registered, we dont what six hundred foot high wind turbines in our neighbourhood. We don't want to look at red, blake, the lights all night every night for the rest of our lives they these projects, despite these claims from the wind business they hurt her pretty values, and they produce enormous amounts of noise pollution, which is bad for human health. It disrupts sleep. This has been proven and so these are polluting machines, their visually polluting there. It's on the landscape, they hurt human health, they hurt property values and,

None of this matters to the sierra clubs or these all energy crowd, because climate change right they neither like told him sleaze climate change, scarecrow, that's what I call them right there now going to solve climate change, no they're, not their only being the because of the tax credits which are enormously lucrative for the company That are doing that. So just another quick point, this tax credit principles, the tax credits. What I call subsidy mining is what's right: in this deployment of solar and wind but Secondly, the windows so look at happen in madison county iowa. I wrote about this was enforced time ago, but American energy subsidiary, berkshire hathaway owned by are controlled by Warren Buffett, who'd, two thousand forty said. The only reason to build when turbans is to get the tax credits. Ok, back a medicine county, berkshire hath, where

mid American wanted to build a win project in medicine. Counting madison counting passes an ordinance saying we don't know more wind projects they effectively. The ordinance said band knew when projects they got sued by mid american energy. Imagine if she runner exxon did that it would be front page news in the new york times and instead crickets now reporting on this at all, if the oil and gas it was acting as aggressively as the wind industry has against rural americans and in fact, an immense energy should your fellow canadians, Esther rightly filed suit against her in canadian court, because She was opposing one of their win projects and called next era. Next error, her website they shooter and think they were hired a new day. They put his slap sued honoured that those lamps, and were designed to stop people from being intimidated by large organizations. That was the bloody plan there right. So imagine if the ship given

if oil industry did did that, but here's an american company shooting a canadian canadian court. I mean the way these companies have acted in terms of corporate fancy bill is just crazy. I mean just this week. pursuit of subsidies, what they ve done it from a corporate responsibility standpoint. It's just like the oil and gas industry act in this way. It would be they would be pilloried and yet because it's all energy, they get a free pass. and so what's happening on the bird front. As far as we are concerned with regards to windmills, you know, I'm an avid birdwatching and have been for more than thirty years in nineteen. Ninety, I can pull the story up. In fact, I wrote a piece for the christian science monitor back then about bird kills open oil pitch in west taxes and in new mexico. For violations of the migratory birds treaty act and at that time The fish, while I service estimated that the oil and gas industry, through their own negligence, was killing. Six hundred thousand migratory birds, Michael

I urge a year they the fish. While I service inadvertently, justice, brought something like two hundred cases against the oil and gas industry and rightly so, and they won't gas industry to their credit clean it up. They they put nets over their pimps, that closer pits today, The wind industry is killing at least that many birds pro Probably more, we don't know, and there is no. count ability, because there are not required to report these debts. They have been, secured a very rare occasions, but it's this. the justification as well. Oh of these, these birds are gonna, get hurt by climate change sometime in the future. Oh yeah, yeah, you're, you're, you're, killing them now, because you think it help in the future, will that's just crazy policy that it makes no sense whatsoever, and you don't know that with people either, you don't get this. and yet, if there's a free, this is a free pass. I mean we have it about the whales. We can talk about that as well, but but this

We're gonna kill them, because we might have some climate change in the future and I'll return I'll return are returned. The next era, just one quick point. Last year, thing fully. They got prosecuted by the department of justice. Why? Because in why arming next era, we had been warned by the fish, and while I service three times not to build a way project in known golden eagle, habitat they did it anyway, and so we're prosecuted, and I was glad to see it under the migrant under the I think, started a migratory birds treaty. They should have been criminally prosecuted under the endangered species ball, the golden eagle. It's not end the migratory birds reactor should they paid a fine but the fine they it was less than the amount that they're gonna earned from the tax credits for building the wind farm in the first place. So there perverse incentives at hand here, and I it aboard fail me because I do I care about why But I think this is the death of environmentalism club

the tourism has replaced care for the environment, This idea will just pay this rural countryside with wind turbines and solar panels and aim of climate change of your mind: men, we there's more, we won't need small footprints. It's also the case too that this year, dimensional mania in relationship to carbon dioxide is stopping us from solving environmental problems that could, at least in principle, be addressed. Like I looked into the environmental literature in detail about fifteen years ago in my conclusion, for better or worse was that one of the stupidest things we were doing was continually overfishing. The coastal shells in the ocean- and we do that like it, it's to call a devastating- is to barely even scratch the surface. I think we will eradicate it, something like ninety five percent of the ocean life on the coastal shelves and that's about where the life is, because you need sunlight for life and you need the shell. So it's a bloody qatar

and it's impossible even to get people's attention focused on that, because everybody who hypothetically has an environmental concerns leaping up down about carbon dioxide, and that means that every other problem, and there are plenty of them and they are serious problems in some of them. Are remediable they're just ignored lately, so you get it. You get a guy, out of jail, pass for any form of industrial development that claims carbon dioxide remediation as its goal, and you a moral pass. If you jump up and down about carbon dioxide hard now, because you saving the planet, even if you're not doing any of the difficult work that would be necessary to actually do something useful on the environmental front, plus you're, sacrificing the or not to help not to do anything. But make them poorer and more likely to pollute. So this looks like a three way catastrophe to me well- and this is obvious in in- were in the development of offshore wind on the: u s east coast, where these in

these ngos, these climate ngos that in the past audubon I too share a club, etc would have been jumping been down to protect the north atlantic right whale from the encroachment of offshore wind avail of offshore development. I mean it If it was, the offshore of the oil and gas industry is trying to develop and put hundred's, because that's the goal- hundreds of offshore platforms in the middle of known north atlantic right whale habitat, a critically endangered species lesson three hundred and fifty or so specimens left down on the planet. Imagine that this was the oil and gas industry doing that they would these groups- would be raising a hell. I mean I mean I and they would be laying down. They would be blocking the trucks and instead, because it's the wind industry largely being developed by foreign companies, not even american companies. It's it's. What Michael Shallenberg recalls the environmental betrayal and I think that's the exact right word when an I'm holding

remember, you know, save the whales and that you know it's kind of parity like save the guy. Baby wales for Jesus right. You know the kind of like this was the kind of almost a joke right, but environmental is right did, and I call it that working on an essay on the death of environmental is because I think that's what we're sitting, which or seeing that this this idea, Protecting landscapes are protecting. Wild life has been as been forsaken for climate ism, what we ve it and what I call climate system and renewable energy fetishism. So that, instead of a focus on preserving landscapes, preserving wildlife and end in, and that is that right deep green ethic has been ripped by this idea that any winter, but as a good wintermute any solar panel is a good solar panel and most obvious. I think in this it will not do in the on shore wind issue, which documented and at the right,

actions of solar by the way on she, the show what solar rejections on that renewable rejection database integrate a hundred, thirty or more rejections or restrictions, but this climate ism. This new, renewable fetishism it is most obvious when it comes to the north atlantic right whales and the development of offshore wind on the east coast of the united states. Satish is sad to see so so the way it looks to me like this is that people, people's reputations are extremely important to them. They signal their position in the hierarchy and the higher you are in the hierarchy, the more stable your nervous system is and the more positive emotion you exp you experience, and so a plus all sorts of other benefits accrue to you, because people, if you have a good reputation, people flock to you so reputation. Matters, so that means that there is an avenue open constantly for false avenues, to reputation, enhancement and that's what psychopaths and narcissists

but it also worry dialogues offer because they tell people look. Is good person. You stand up against problems, here's the problem which in this case, would be carbon dioxide. Thus you could be a good person all things considered and have you reputation enhanced merely by standing up against carbon dioxide, takes absolutely no work on your part whatsoever. You just have to protest and when you don't actually have to solve problems and now you're a good person and now that's a pre packaged solution, especially young people who are looking for moral virtue, say well, all you have to do be anti industrial and anti carbon dioxide and now you're. Now your reputation is sick. currently enhanced, and anyone who stands in your way is like a devil and and evil, and so that's the deal. The religious nexus that we're dealing with here and the problem with that is as your pointing out is that our first it's really hard on the poor and second, it sacrifices all the real problems to the this pseudo

problem solution or pseudo problem, pseudo solutions and, and so now found the destructive and so now the solution is to go. Throw some soup on some paintings in the museum right right, who had just like. Oh I'm, gonna protests by bye By being a vandal, I mean it says, I just heard yeah exactly what that their signals, that opposition to the you know colonial industrial enterprise or whenever they if just certain but there's a certain pathetic aspect that I mean it's there there these these. I call him a guy, I'm gonna be sixty three here pretty soon and I look at them, but I think what are you doing? I mean woody. What is we hope for the future. Have you no idea how privileged you are living where you live? Have you no sense of yourself in the world relic to the rest of the planet, because women think before we started recording, but I'm I'm I'm happy, I'm workin

peace for the alliance for responsible citizenship, which you're helping found in and I've written along paper and on on electricity. They ability in the developing world and I've document and I went through using data, the latest data from our world and in data. There are three points: seven billion people in the world today, almost for the world population right now that live in places where electricity consumption is twelve thou, twelve hundred kilowatt hours or less per capita per year. That's about the twelve per hour kilowatt hours about the same amount of electricity is consumed by a large kitchen for greater in the united states to imagine this for seven percent of the population on the planet today is low. in electricity poverty and work and work planing, because our electricity isn't you from alt energy or something I mean there, There there there there's a certain

michael shellenberger calls it this kind of nihilistic nor narcissism, russia, not sure exactly I described, but but there's something about only present is right that we only have right now and There's no history! There's no future but there's no sense of how in the west. Are I mean, sometimes pinch mice? I mean just how lucky I am not just in my career, my family. You know to a wonderful woman, get great kids but in terms of gee, an energy availability and then all we what we are hearing and as what is dominating the administration- and I say this is not a partisan- I'm not a democratic, not a republican. I am disgusted, but this binding measures, It is the most anti your carmen administration in american history and all there. It seems like their this climate, Who is the only thing they want to talk about when you know an existential threat and I'm thinking existential threat.

One hundred thousand americans died last year of opioid overdoses. I might Jacob is twenty three within the last much too. People that he knew to two kids boys that he knows I say young men die we'll be worried, overdoses here in Austin, that's that's a public health crisis and yet whereas by demonstration been on fetnah, where they aren't opiates? Why, then he pounding the damn podium saying we have to do something about this and steady standing up bragging about sums. stupid nine hundred million dollar loan to the angolan, so they can build solar panels where priorities. Where's your humanism, I mean I I get worse. That is, as part of the reason why this is part. Ok, so monarch front the alliance for responsible citizenship. I mean we're trying to do a couple of things. First of all, we are working diligently with lombard whose on board with the project, because I think of all the people that I've met his ability to prioritize is unparalleled in he's done very

full empirical work, showing what our priorities should be. Now it turns out to be complicated and it's not you get to be a good person. If you shake your protest sign up and down it's a lot more complicated than that, but we're I am concerned, you know you said: there's something pathetic about watching these young people, for example blue themselves to two paintings and I think that's where pathetic degenerates into right criminal by the way. But I take you can't take your point with regard to vat ec mean part of the pro with the classic liberals and the conservative types, is that we we they haven't been able to put to get forward a narrative, that's compare. Calling on the genuine moral advance front right and that's what we're trying to do with the ark is we'd like to say: well, you know We envision a future that we can all get on board with terribly without fear and compulsion, integrity, and that would be something like well. What would it look like? Well, how about we get have all we take those forty, seven percent of people that you just described.

who are barely bloody, well scrape and by and get energy to them so that they can stop scrabbling round in the dirt and can start contributing their brain power to the collective human enterprise. How about we make that eddie, proud and my own brother, not well we're doing that. We could we make some advances on the environment front, because, as soon as their rich enough to care, they'll start carry, and now I'm Even china is greener than it was twenty years ago. You know that and its partly because as china has gotten rich people have started to care a little bit about their local environment and we could really you don't play like india or almost at that threshold. Now, where they're going to start to really care, and so the story- could be instead of oh, my god, it's an apocalyptic nightmare and everyone's going to die, and we should only have five hundred million people on the planet and I dunno how the hell we're going to get rid of the other seven point: five billion, but we'll figure out some way, you could say no, you! No more people like musk has been saying more people the better, because we

can convert. We can convert all that to brain power and if we were ethical and we had a clue We can have a future that everybody can be proud of where no one is starving were there's a world of abundance where everybody has opportunity, and that would be a lot better than this bloody apocalyptic nightmare that justifies in freezing top down tyrannical pressure. It's not good idea an end, in the energy has to be one of those most fundamental building blocks, and I am completely on board, that because, as I say, energy realism as energy humanism, we have be realistic about the limits of this, the these renewables right and My friend Jesse also well, I mentioned before he said just begun because wind and solar, maybe renewable. They are not green and I think that's it we're just a great a great way to Think about them. Yes, there renewable, but because the renewal doesn't mean their green one example. You know

I the table on this when Jordan, because it does just get me riled and better. Please do I in wisconsin. I had an event at the university was Wisconsin Oshkosh a few weeks ago, and I flew into Milwaukee, and I've been contacted people from Earl america contact me all the time and asking me to help them find a lawyer help them. You know besides there beer, their fight against a renewable project. Will John John Barnes residents of Christiana wisconsin little town of eighteen hundred, it's about an hour west of Milwaukee, so I got there. Drove straight there. I met him the town town supervisor mark cook animal, what a woman who was there is name escapes me at the moment. Their fighting a project that would cover get this Levin square miles of their little farming community. Its informing committee of eighteen hundred would cover some of the best, far land in all of wisconsin with solar panels.

it's sort this farmland and was caught some of the best farmland in the world and these local people say we don't want this and yet its inventor gee, this privately owned renewable company out of Chicago there's, going to develop the project and then flip it too. local are local. You chose convincing was constant state law, but it screamed that farming, community images, gruesome and Whose speaking up for them? No one you know It was when it solar, maybe we're noble. They are not green. Why in the world, would we be covering prime farmland with solar panels? The answer is very simple: its climate ism and the investment text, read at you, and you put you put those that you put those two together right. This dual energy fetishism, which is, I think the right were right description with these. Credibly lucrative tax credits which for solar matter like thirty percent. all the lay out. The initial car capital costs to the project, its incredibly profitable

for these renewable energy developers to do these projects, and so you know of food, you know However, you know farmers, we don't care about that, we're here to make money, and these are little signal, not little farms, but there corn and soya there. You know they're they're, there farmers are just gettin by and yet they're just getting get screwed by these kinds of projects. Where's the new york times. she wears the new york times. Why is it? Why is the washington post report and why is it in in NPR? Why aren't they reporting on this because they don't care, so you said something interesting solar and wind or renewable- but you know I don't think that's true exactly let let me see what I mean by. The sun in the wind or renewable, but that doesn't mean that solar and wind power are renewable. Those are the same thing in and the reason the reason I'm saying now it is because the lifespan- solar panels isn't very long and the lifespan of wind.

generators isn't very long, and so there renewable at all, because once they exhaust themselves, they have to be scrapped and destroyed, and then they they have to be rebuilt. So I don't, understand once renewable about down at all like if, if we were growing sooner solar panels in a field, that would be a different thing, but we're not one renewables has would will grow, but it like and I don't know exactly what happened to siemens. I haven't been following that story close enough to know, but the siemens manufacturing and they taken a huge stock it because this said that there are solar or their wind mill. Generating systems are much. more problematic than they had originally sought. What did they mean by that like what? What exactly is the problem? Do you know the problem on that front? What did they run run into right? I I don't know exactly. I haven't looked at into the specifically but here's my theory and let's go back to physics and and fluid mechanics the bats limit. Is

What determines the amount of energy that you can harness from the diffused energy in the wind right? It's it's like water and water wind. I think in many ways sign standard about a physicist but they function in the same ways right? You there's a limited amount of power that can harness from this diffuse source of energy. I think they just got. The point where they made the system to the machines got so big that they the forces on them effectively tearing machines apart right that they can. The forces of the torque force they're trying to deal with in these gear by which are incredibly complex machines, that they see the stresses- were just two great right that they made them too big pfizer there, not a very ability to write, and we know that money runnin wind mills they have do. They have to operate from conditions of like zero, wind whatsoever, which is inappropriate to like to like gale level, gale level, storms and now that's it,

Madame engineering, children, these fish you're, also putting them in the bloody salt water out in the middle of the ocean right which has just made by the way, you know that you're gonna put them out there anything but anything insult, it's going to cost you two or three times more than putting it on land. So I think this is about basic physics and they're getting to the limits of the best limit bright, and you have he's blades that are eighty metres long and you ve got to manufacture those and that's another thing, and then, when their done, you you you can't you have them. and fill them right, there's no way to recycle them. But I would taken a little bit different direction. Jordan, because it's not just the machines and how their bill it's the supply chains- and this is the their part. That is not getting the kind of attention that it deserves, and I've written this on my subject that if these supply chains for all energy are almost all dependent on china, let's look at electric vehicles, how do you think alone, muskets building his next gig factory, I'm in Austin? They just built one here, its massive factory, I just flew in the other, with the other night from miami and I've we flew over it. It's a massive bet

few very specific commodities, cobalt, lithium, neo, neodymium The autonomy of iron boron magnets disposed and turbine to name a few manga some few. A few other copper. Obviously, so, what's the problem there, well the chinese control the market. For ninety percent of the global. Four neo demi him aren't boron magnets, which are the key element, easy, DR motors right, that nearly all the electric because being produced today use this type of magnet, so other countries can make those magnets but who controls the turkey amend the dispersion of two other rare earths? Neo Jimmy I'm turbulent displeasure. All rare earth elements Controls percent of the turbulent dispersion markets? Those are the things that are used to dope the magnets that are put into those too these, so they can function at high temperature. Show it's not you, but ok,

so let's go beyond the magnets, which are needed as well in wind turbines in offshore turbans particular but the new, generation of wind turbines need these same magnets and not just a few hours are few kilograms. Talking tons of magnets china controls the market, completely what about the other things that we need graphite for batteries, copper for the material intensity of electric vehicles is far greater than that for internal combustion engines, so hoo hoo, with all these supply chains led to china? I'm not china basher. China's gonna take care of china, but why, in them Peter Poland married now The united states be the be staking its future economy Chinese supply chains doesn't make any sense. whatsoever, and for the? U s, to try and reassure all of those. allergies, including rare earth elements, refining and an end. These and processing

or mining and processing at we could talk uranium as well. They're. All these Why change that figure into the big picture here? that are just like. There's a lot of hand waving, oh well, we'll just keep importing it again. What who are you strategically here where's, the long term, thinking about art, strategic vulnerability and I don't see any of that at its very worried about the problem with doing things in an idiot fear based panic- is that these very very complex problems right and the supply in problem is an invisible part of that and if repatriate those industries that you describe, That would mean a lot more mines, and it is obvious that all in today's regulatory environment that that's even vaguely possible, plus its like there's, not an environmental costs to lets a copper mining so so that no

This is somehow green in some obvious way is not it's not a tenable notion at all, and then you add that supply chain vulnerability to that end at that could be that's obviously unwise to say the least. Well well, and it applies to solar as well, and this is something else. It's been large ignored and make his just flat swept under the rug. Is this Why a polish silicon for solar panels now, let me be clear They have kilowatts a solar panels on the roof of my house. Why did I put him on Kosovo three different subsidies, hello, I'm am opposed to energy subsidies unless I'm getting them. Jordan are rights. Footnotes be clear, What am I sure that those solar panels which are made in korea don't have content that was that came from china. No, and when you Look at the solar market. In fact, the? U s government just two years ago issued advisory, saying that the about sweeter slave labour engine jane and the content in particular, for

I silicon, produce engine jane with we would her slave labour, and and the u S, government called it genocide. Now. Are these are these exactly where I don't know for sure, but this is very problematic, I mean the oil and gas industry were in any way connected to something involving slave labour, be front page news, but because the solar industry again they get a free pass, and I just think that where we live in a world of networks, and that's the part that I think if, if I was going to think about how you're right you your point about these simplicity, notions. It ignores the fact that all of these systems, all the networks we rely on- are all interrelated and we ve forgotten that end. Trickling. When it comes to the old energy discussion we ve neglected. This. Does that the us to understand, and how how vulnerable we are. How will our reliant we are on foreign

suppliers, and that includes enriched uranium, but in particular it includes rare elements neo! Do me more and more on magnets polly silicate, nearly all, the alt energy stuff that is being pushed being heavily subsidize now through the inflation reduction act to the tune of four hundred, billion dollars depends we are almost completely or in large part on chinese supply chains yeah. Well, the thing is, is when an energy ecosystem evolves of it's own accord, it's full of a multitude of checks and balances, writers, many people providing hydrocarbon based electricity and all sorts of supply chain problems that have been ironed out and nailed down and had a certain degree of resilience built into them over the course of decades, and those are relatively simple technologies in some ways as well. Now what we're trying to do is right-

in a mad rush, because the sky is falling to replace all that. Even though we don't know how- and it's absolutely impossible failing to understand at all. The visible supply chain complexities, because the people who are putting forward policies have never had to grapple with anything like that, and they just assume that if you plug in electric outlet plug into the wall, that electricity comes out of the wall. Right, and further than I do, you know there's this blind spot here. Let me focus on the: u s: electric grid and my friend emmett ten with grid. Brief, has done a lot of good reporting on this. An end across the? U s: we've had grid operators, warning of reliability, problems pjm new york, I show california the israelis had huge problems with grid reliability. My show that the mid continent independent system operator, or been warning age, as well as the north american electric reliability corporation of reliability, problems

Why? Because we're shuddering our coal plants too fast and instead of having the keeping of coal plants online word that the The push is on for a lot of these utilities too, install renewables because that's where the money is he means are all plans, for example, that the british government had to reactivate like three weeks ago, because it got so hot. The solar panels wouldn't work. You mean those coal plants very similar ones. Yes, exactly so I went but there's and I think this is a lack of forward thinking and a lack of accountability and that we are not here in texas, right with the earth caught blackouts in february, twenty twenty one there was this idea? Oh well, the market failed well, who made the market well? Well, the legislature will who's in the legislature a bunch of lawyers. Well, they don't know what the they don't know. How does the electric grid works? They like the idea of them and so these are we're gonna to make a market is going to be great well, who felt who was possible? Well, no one was responsible

and that's what we're seeing now when it comes to these bigger threat to the reliability of the? U s grid is everyone's legal ramble, who's responsible for reliability? No one would that kind of a problem, so I think it's You don't think we ve talked around a lot of big issues here, but to me that the more for that and when it comes down to it, the you in general, and I think the west in general when it comes to the altar, gee push with climate change and renewable energy fetishism. This narrow focus on this idea of Oh two is the only issue. No, it is Surely it is not our only concern. We have to be concerned about reliability. Word ability real azaleas. These are the He thinks because one of the key things right, brought this home to me and really motivated good. I'm doing on this documentary that were working with my colleagues. I should cover it's one thing: to talk black out. It's nothing to be blacked out

and it really what's happened. I realized, Damn minute this can happen in texas. energy capital of the world. Going on here. let us into this deep died for this are new or new document is not an out there'll be out. This fall We haven't made the announcement yet but its juice power checks on the grid and we're gonna that comes out just before that comes out. Why don't we do another podcast, and you can provide us with some video footage as well that we can incorporate into the podcast to advertise it in some more some. If in a manner that is in fact of as I could manage because of this, I would rather less you you know, and this is our enterprise. We have six domains of of focus. Let's say in what one is energy and wasn't in one is environment, there's four other YAP but ready. We understand, I think, as much as we possibly can that the issue here, as you pointed out, is affordability. Let's say in reply

ability, and we want to take those where apart momentarily. Maybe we can do that close this program off affordability, ok, that means poor people don't die right. Right, that's what affordability means it doesn't mean that you know reasonably well off. People can say: few dollars on their energy bill because people who are most hit hardest by far by any increase in energy costs are the people who are barely clinging to the bottom of the sea I'm a hierarchy and theirs by millions of people like that and they can easily be not back down the absolute privation, and this it moralising in the west, is exactly doing that and its hurting poor people like mountain in the west as well. So it's not just in the detail, world right and reliability? It's like well with liability means that your food doesn't run your refrigerator. How about that? the supermarkets right, Reliability means that your power

Is there when you're on the bloody operating room table, and you need everything to work. A hundred percent of the time, which is what we ve managed right. We have this murat this bloody industrial state where people are working flat out. One hundred percent of the time to make sure everything worked, one hundred percent of the time and we ve manage that, and we're doing everything. We can now to compromise that in the name of a false and potential genocidal moral virtue. It's absolutely appalling! There's! You said a lot there I'll replied this way witches if your energy is a reliable, it's not affordable, and that is the key here, right down on that line about those countries that are turning. the mafia, so to speak, to write to supply back when'd energy. Obviously, that's going to happen, everybody who have a bloody diesel generator in their backyard if we make the grid unreliable- and I don't like that- will be that good for the planet will ensue

we need to build on that point. It is the lecture see as reliable as not affordable. So that's what I saw in lebanon with the generator mafia and examine the grid. The grid fails every day and so people they they have that the generator they have to pay to electric bills. Unto india, electricity, duly ball, and one the generator mafia, in some cases there they almost the same cost right look here here in the: u s: what's been the best stocks in the united states over the last few years, generic the cabin bill stand by generators right. What will why their stock booming, because every one looks at the grid and there were seeing increasing numbers of blackouts across the country, people are acting in a rational way and their buying generally well, who a fourth generation. It's the same people who can afford electric vehicles, the average household income for the average general buyer. is around a hundred and thirty hundred forty thousand dollars. That's twice the: u s average show here people

I'm do. Ok, I'm not rich man, but I know if I wanted to general, I could afford when I suppose, but if your electorate, he is a reliable, then gets affordable edge? If it's not reliable, you buy a generic, because you know that it's gonna go off so I've seen it might after hurricane in Louisiana people, I get a small generator and their pudding gasoline and it because they get there we ve met. guide. To guess you couldn't buying gasoline toward me. Can sleep at night with an air conditioner right in homer louisiana. We talk to the sky, so so it's not reliable. We you're gonna, have to spend enormous amounts of money to make it reliable. So these go hand in hand, but I am so pleased that you know I was honoured, flatter to be asked to be real participating in the art project, because electric is fundamental and it is a humanist. It is a humanist standpoint to say this is the critical. This is go form of energy that we crave as humans and its critical, because it makes us more human electricity

is our bodies or electric: where are entire systems or electric and the creator of the electric grid is one of the greatest engineering feeds in human history, and it is changed human d like no other form of energy ever has, and if we're going to be humanist- and I will stand on that pulpit all day- long we're going to be humanist. We need to bring more electricity to more people and in particular, to women and girls, because that there have been there their half of humanity and questioning arteries, excellent place to an absolutely man. Absolutely there is no bloody way that you can be pro poor and you know it. They are often the most vulnerable people on the poor front are obviously women children. There is no way you can be pro poor and anti energy. Those two things do not go together, not in the least so yeah yeah, it's unconscious in one of the things we really do want to do with the ark and were very happy to have you on board and to have your help on in this regard is to push constantly to drive energy prices.

and to climb up that higher? Can we talk about right from from biodegrade brussels food sort for fuel sources. To call two hydrocarbons, past hydrocarbons. Hopefully up and nuclear, with renewables in their wherever they can actually be wherever they pull their own goddamn economic weight without variety of market distorting idiot subsidies that that are that are causing all sorts of counter productive, activity so always able to argue amen to that when Jordan, alright, alright, so all right so good talk, everyone watching and listening. Thank you for your time and attention these things special For you, young people who are listening. You know you guys got to think this through because, This is the world is being created now and you can have a world of you know continual guidance and reliability, which is kind of what we for the last fifty years. Miraculously enough or you

wander down this demented pseudo moral route and break everything well, making the planet worse and those are basically the options that are open to you, and so no, it was good to talk to Today's got some intelligent things to say on the energy and environment front ass, a man whose also concerned with environmental considerations, and so you know it's good to think through into a shoe the cheap moralising into work forward into a future, where we are doing what we can to supply energy to poor people, because that's the best possible thing we could manage least on the practical front. So thank you very much for target, today, sir lights have another podcast. When you get this documentary up and ready. That would be very good. we'll see you in london at the end of Toby? Obviously I'm looking forward to reading your report, the one that's been commission for the for the alliance for responsible citizenship and so on. then I will turn now over to the daily, where site I'm gonna doktor robert for another half an hour, a little bit about saw, you know,

More personal issues, I'm interested in how is his calling to the energy environment This came about and to delve a little bit more into his motivations for voting life to that, so join us on the data were plus front. If you're inclined folks, there could use the sport anyways at the moment, especially because we're under You dont pretty heavy assault by the youtube types at the moment, so fashion Did I tell you to background sensors? You bet robert. Thank you verdicts thanks. Thanks a lot jordan, Israel as a privilege, the.