This episode was recorded on November 8th, 2021
Andy Ngo is an independent journalist and photographer who lives under constant threats for his reporting and expertise on American Antifa and the militant far-left. He has testified before the U.S. Congress, appeared on countless TV shows, radio programs, and podcasts, and has been featured in the Wall Street Journal, New York Post, Newsweek, Fox News, National Review, and more. Andy is currently the editor-at-large at the Post Millennial.
In this episode, I discuss Andy’s experiences with Antifa, race riots, autonomous zones, and the ‘summer of love’ in Seattle. We also exchanged thoughts on the psychology of mob violence, journalistic integrity, dealing with criticism, using people for political ends, attempts to destabilize the police, and lots more.
Check out Ngo’s new book
https://www.amazon.com/Unmasked-Antifas-Radical-Destroy-Democracy/dp/154605958X/ref=tmm_hrd_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1643921778&sr=1-2
Take the ‘Understand Myself’ personality questionnaire
https://understandmyself.com
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Chapters
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[00:00] Jordan introduces Andy Ngo
[01:10] When Jordan & Andy first met and Jordan's imaginary enemies
[02:08] Race riots and the existence of Antifa
[04:19] Andy Ngo's experience with Antifa
[07:58] The problem with conceptualizing Antifa
[14:29] What motivates legacy media to minimize Antifa?
[16:08] Was there a time Andy ever thought the stakes were high enough he violated his journalistic integrity?
[19:44] How does Andy know he's not exaggerating the threat?
[20:53] "They believe that no act they commit can go too far." AN
[21:05] "Imagine that you are so virtuous in your pursuits that you are entitled to do anything to anyone whenever you want." JBP
[22:19] "It's this moral license that goes along with this claim of virtue that really scares the hell out of, and it's also the fact that you can instantly demonize your enemies because if you're so virtuous that everything is justified, then anyone who opposes you is virtually Satan themselves." JBP
[22:43] Story of a Minnesota mob kicking someone's teeth in
[25:55] The Psychology of mob violence
[27:17] How does he know he's not an exaggerating threat
[31:18] Destabilizing the police
[31:49] Is it helpful to categorize radicals either left or right?
[36:41] The "summer of love" in Seattle
[41:07] The gang members who came out at night
[41:25] Stories of the autonomous zones
[47:04] Instrumentality and using people to achieve a goal
[48:04] "We've got to get rid of this idea that we can use people for an end; I don't care what the damn end is."
[48:32] How destabilized have these cities become because of this?
[51:19] The Minnesota Freedom Fund
[52:58] Criticisms of Andy Ngo
[54:34] How he knows the Minnesota Freedom Fund wants to abolish the criminal justice system, what are they doing wrong by bailing these people out, and how he knows it linked to an ideology.
[56:57] "The system gets sloppy and self-congratulatory as we move toward statements like, the system is broken."
[58:21] What do we do about the large incrimination of Americans, including a disproportionate number of them African Americans?
[01:03:05] Wading through the accusations of the freedom fund being far left and Andy being far-right
[01:04:33] James O'Keefe and Project Veritas
[01:06:32] Andy's connection to Portland's militant right-wing and far-right-wing groups.
[01:12:38] How many times he's been beaten up and why he kept going on.
[01:18:52] Minnesota Freedom Fund cont. Who are they getting out on bail, and why do they think it's a good idea?
[01:24:08] Jordan refers to a part of Andy's book that addresses a comment made by Kamala Harris
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
Welcome to episode. Two hundred and thirty nine of the J Bp podcast mackay
petersen in this
so dad spoke with Andy now, and independent journalists and photographer and lovely individual who lives under constant threat.
who is reporting on antigua.
and he's a very controversial figure for really no reason he's testify
before the u S, congress appeared on countless tv shows and podcast and has been featured in
locations like the wall street journal new york posed in national review, he's
Currently, the editor at large at the post millennial. Dad.
I asked him about his experience with antigua race riots, autonomous zones, the sum
of love in seattle, but they also had a really interesting discussion about psychology, like the psychology of mob violence journalistic
haggerty in high stakes situations using people for
well we'll ends and destabilizing the police.
dad also asked him about some of the criticism he's received. As a journalist
if you're interested in supporting this podcast and getting the ad free version. Please visit.
we'll be petersen dot super cast dot com signing up
you premium, show notes, access to pre, sale events and the ability to
dissipate an exclusive monthly colonies with dad. I hope you enjoy this conversation.
The.
hello. Everyone I'm pleased today to
with me, someone I've wanted to talk to you for a long time. Mr Andy, no and
is a journalist best known for reporting on
and antigua he's an eta
large at the post millennial, which has recently been under attack by left wing radicals, I would say who have sought to have
the advertisers drop, the post millennial as and deprived and depriving them of their source of revenue in consequence,
he's written reports for the new europe post, newsweek and other media major media outlets. He do now
attention when he was beaten and hurt very badly by and Tita thugs on the streets of portland in the summer of two thousand and nineteen
his february twenty twenty one book unmasked inside
and teeth, as radical plan to destroy democracy was in new york,
times best seller and quite a gripping read, I might add Andy
had to leave the? U s because of concerns for safety in this currently residing in the? U k, hey Andy
so nice to see you we haven't met.
Before I dont think every my memories of its body in, but I dont
We ve ever met. Is that correct?
in no preferred to we have when you
You were on your true. I knew you were important when the door again. That was where there were some the largest demonstrations against you and back state aids. I entreat you from my podcasting,
Very briefly how sorry? I'm sorry, if I've I've that hasn't managed
itself in my memory. Unfortunately-
Do you remember that there were protests?
Portland that was pretty much yet for protests. You know one that whole tour. So but of course you know they would be in portland and
they weren't against me. There they were against two people wished. I was so that they could protest me really. So all right so
I've been going through a distinction. Yes, it is an important distinction, because you know a lot a lot of our eyes,
there is reserved for our imaginary enemies and so that certainly something that we could delve into a little bit with regards to,
and teeth. So, let's go there right away. So I was talking to a number of influential democrats this week about and teeth
and about january, sixth, okay, and so so imagine that an hour,
observer, like a canadian, might look at the united states and think well, you know that
Michael laughed how's
london minneapolis, that's pretty damn ugly and then the
article right has january. Sixth, that's pretty ugly and you know maybe
could draw some kind of equivalence between the two and maybe not, but I think you could at least make a reasonable in
your case for something like that january. Six have launched a symbolic wait if nothing else and and certainly did frighten people very badly, but
when I was talking to these Democrats about and teeth and the riots, their attitude is sort of well, there's there's always been
wrap riots and race riots in the united states throughout its into
history. So in some sense it's really nothing out of the ordinary and besides and teeth
doesn't really exist and so I'd like you to address, if you would both of those points,
and began. I should point out to these: were reasonable people making these points. These aren't
Michael left, us these are people who are trying hard to pull the democratic party towards a
moderate centre and who
very suspicious of the radical left us, especially the grip they have on the education system, so they're good faith,
players and still and all
they think they said to me, was that they believed it was intellectually dishonest to draw a parallel between P.
london, minneapolis and january six, making the case that what happened on january six was much much worse like in in a category of its own, and they justified that
referring to the fact that it was direct assault on the capital building you know, and and and and
There was presidential ambivalence about bringing that to a halt. So that's
that's nest. So you know you went away then. Yes, professor, so I think the safer good faith, engagement from the left,
I completely understand why they would be this perception that anti five minutes, or does it really exists, because that's me, propaganda by the arabic instead from the legacy medium broadcasting in print
day in and day out, and certainly since tromp was elected, is entirely different story, though, when you're on the ground, as I have been for years- and you got no see face to face and wait
here the eu, but the organization, no aspect of it is undeniable that were initially sparked. My curiosity because important portland, where I'm from.
And the election results in twenty sixteen november were announced. Tons of thousands of people took to the streets and within that there was a an organized element of the budrus in the same uniforms. At that time it was unusual to cover your face and they had weapons in in a very strategic way, smashing newborns national move on cause business to the buildings, star, wires ron, and so it was from there that spots.
Interest wanting to more about what looks like an organized organised michel paramilitary south, with without out of the way, though I think the press, because of its color
my nature and generally being buys the last. They have turned a blind eye to the evidence that showed theirs
and depending on where you others and organise organizational structure to africa and the statement that bite inside infamously at one of the debates last year, and he finds an idea, thus need men in itself is true, but if not to the south a complete statement, you have
I think one way to explain it- that people can understand routes more easily. Is it's analogous to the worldwide jihadist phenomenon in that you can have people who are natural numbers of
organizations like her arm or I ask the al-
these are the job as groups, but you have people.
well who are sympathetic to the ideology and act on it.
In that regard. Anything you can think of the contemporary manifestations of anticline in in the united states, canada and in western countries along the same lines you can have people who had to self identify in and simply all they do is go to these protests or riots the suppliers they see online. Then you have actual cells that operate such as rose city antifa, which is an organized group. You can go on their website and look at the q and a and they actually have. One of the questions is: how do I join and they say that currently membership is closed, so desire, and in my book I published some of the primary documents
regular Formosa yardstick by which is actually one of the sounds. That's part of a network called the torch anti for network and they have selves and other cities so from you know,
it's kind of all the above its ideology, its
whereas ongoing organise its disorganize, its
so highly organized in some cases, so it's because of the lack of centralized hierarchy authority, but makes it easy for those who want to obfuscation confused the public about it, because I can point and say: well, you know, there's no single bit
who is the leader at geneva leadership, because there is no single
Send whose heading everything then the responses world- that's evident fact they don't exist.
yeah to counter this is this is a real problem. Conceptually right, I mean, let's think about it, to begin with as a problem that we all face instead of a political
problem emanating either from the left or the right. Ok, because I think there's a deeper problem here that isn't exactly parties
and we'll get into the part as an element of later
So imagine, first of all, let ok, so I assume that the description
gave would be. The one that you gave is that ok, so what we have here is we have some actual organizations, let's focus on rose city and antigua, and but but it's a radically
strip, it'd organization,
and we don't even know how radically distributed- and it's almost in,
simple to identify its core members or even to define what core membership might be. Now you you, you did point two rows city anti up, but if I said for
or how many other anti for groups are there that have an identified,
will organizational strategy, that's akin to rose city and teeth? How many do do? Did you have any sense of that? Just just a few dozen doctor in money, but the thing is many day: they they clothes and then they sprang up as new
hawk groups on two different names that don't carry the sailing so relatively the same, keep on about okay, a few dozen. So that's real interesting! So that's like, let's say twenty four, just let's, let's make this concrete, because I think it'll be interesting to do so so in that twenty four, how many people do you think are core involved in
group, do you think it's like five visit? Three is at ten
real hard core people who are devoting their time to this, you know like, like maybe there
employed that would be a real shock and its. Therefore,
I'm job, something like that. How many people across the entirety of the united states base is most then let's say were averaging around. This
Besides these roads city and then I would say in total, we're looking at below a thousand people across the entire united states, so hundreds which, as we know,.
When the scheme of things and for the scale that's a relic, does a very small number yeah
Look, it's so small that you could say that it's an
saying this,
it's so small that you could say that its non existent right cause it's one in three hundred thousand, if its theo s it's it's such a tiny minority of people that they barely exist. But what that points to
something actually
minimizing, it did not meet manner, actually points to something far more sinister because
that means is that under
thousand committed, people can radically disdain
lies whole cities and pose a threat to the integrity of entire culture, not not, not least by
fostering polarization and and
generation of the political scheme that comes along with that, and so
That's a real danger for all of us, particularly if it's the case that groups like that can multiply their power
I'm pulling other, you know semi attached and maybe not so violent or even extreme
people in, on the basis of their empathy, exactly concentric circles, probably, is a good way to explain it. I didn't do what you asked me. The concrete number of how many people actually coined terms of me involved in the organizing the planning attending meetings and trainings, like, as you said, almost almost
just get in the population inside the EU s. However, the larger concentric circles is of their simplifies and I think the role of the press, since particularly, I would say, for the election of tromp, helped really to mainstream the so called anti via idea.
G per day in and day out for the entire world, and it is believed that america elected you fascist, president under attack,
That we were experiencing a regime change that there would be people
there would be genocide and
On the fate I mean these ideas assisted these accusations are so outrageous, then I would say laughable, but people genuinely believe they go about five years
Remember like this sunlight only here. I know that will leave us alone.
yeah. Well, there feeling the same way about trump running again. You know that fears.
Finally there- and I think it's probably even higher than it was at least it hard-
was in some ways among the same people and so because they think well, he didn't managed to establish nets.
Italian state this time, but you know just wait where we'll see what how
if it gets power a second time. It must be the last election, the united states, every house, but think about what this means.
Because I also I talk to people on the left. A lot
most of them are moderate. In the extreme
I've types they generally won't talk to me. But although I would
talk to them. If I found someone who is credible and an interesting to talk to
who is willing to what that means is think about.
conceptual problem worse faced with now, so the people on the left can point
the right and say well what about your extremists and the people?
the right can say. Well, there is hardly any of them. There's like the basically don't exist and.
And in some sense that genuinely true and on the left, it
same thing, it's like it's. Hardly anybody at all. It's under a thousand people committed to this
but they can cause a tremendous amount of trouble, and so then the left can play
to the people on the right who are extreme and say well, look at your extremists and what they do and then the right can point to the people on the left to save look at your extremists and what they do and we are.
Know how dangerous they are and what happens if they get out of control and get the upper hand and how much
section do we have to you know
wall ourselves in with in order
sure that doesn't happen and then the fact of those exe
miss mean that each side can demonize the other by pointing to the worst and then everybody gets out of control, and so it is not
the us at all how to deal with that?
lying certainly lie
about it certainly complicates the situation tremendously right, if there's any deceit in the press coverage and so forth, and so but ok, so so that support.
lemme conceptual problem and then.
Why do you think that
you media so to speak is so
light handed in its treatment of and teeth, are given the tremendous damage and
loss of life and violence for that matter, that the riots that in tee
in some sense are central to has caused if you had to play devils advocate.
What's motivating them to minimize this.
Establishment journalists were entirely uniform in and committed to the goal and opposing trump
Many of them thought that it was their duty and obligation to violate some ethical standards
where we re living in such unprecedented times the trump
the executive office, but you needed to be resisted by any means necessary is not always
justification for ethical violations, isn't it
always the rationalization it's like. While this is. I wouldn't normally do this, but this is an exceptional case, and so not only is it
defied for me to violate my ethical standards. It's actually demanded of me, and so
That seems to me to be an argument. I cannot
stand argument. You know because well, hey
maybe we're faced with an emergency working to see a hell of a lot of that by the way, with climate change like a lot. So it's come,
in a big way and
Well, if the emergency is large enough, don't we get to violate our own principles and what you're journalist? Let let me ask you a question: do you can you
recall a time.
And this is a real, serious question. Man, can you read
all the time where you thought the stakes were high enough, so that you violated your journalistic integrity, that I appreciate the question. So I've covered dozens of violent protests and riots were witnessed, people being assaulted and I've, always I I don't intervene in those instances. Ah, I try to record
paragraph, but when you see, for example, mobile people beating somebody it doesnt matter for me, the good cooperation and through that mob is, I feel so that as a human as a citizen, I should at least just
intervene in some way that something that I struggled with alarm
Ok, so you would okay, so you said you said that you dont hinder, be no in your bork there, the
of your severe beating. I looked up some press coverage of that and
And this I believe this was in your book, it as well that well, you were being assaulted so badly. There were press there and they did
nothing to intervene. They were just recording and and taking snapshot.
since video and so forth, and- and you know in the book that sounds like that
their derelict in their duties and maybe in
the killer, because you are also a journalist and maybe that you know maybe there's a special category there, but
and then also as a journalist if you are recording it's like your put
the whole above the part in some sense right, because you think you're you're journalistic its
Mandatory view, because of your journalistic integrity to record and not to intervene, but but you said you fifty
feel the pole on your conscience about that. So how do you? How is it that you lit?
learn to live without and what makes you think that you made the right decision doing what you ve done and maybe, if you dont know, maybe you know.
I'm not entirely sure if I made the right decision. Fortunately, I haven't been like right next to somebody who is on the nearly getting killed. I think for that type of innocence, it's very clear that that that there's a demand for an obligation fallen into the inter.
Since Sunday tat murdered for murdered. Oh you mean you're, also not a police officer, and in you not armed, and I dont mary
your trained in in street fighting or that sort of thing. So in some sense you know
was jump in where angels fear to tread and to people beat to death, isn't really an improvement over one and so
I'm not saying that, like Leonard cohen, canadian,
songwriter, said: there's no decent place to stand in a massacre
you know sometimes you're in a situation where anything you do is bad, because.
The situation is so terrible,
Ok, so you ve had moral qualms about how how apart
from the action you should be under those situations. What about your? Obviously not there
happy with what's happening about an tita and you're on the ground, also as opposed
say to these journalists who are minimizing what an teeth as doing there much
up in the air in some sense right so you're down in the trenches to the point where you
beat up for it, and then I would say the people who,
doing now and reporting on it. They ve got one form.
blinders or because they are not seeing what is actually happening, but in some sense there
for you and your integrity is that you, you have the opposite problem
you're, so damn involve you're watching buildings burn you watching cars, muleteer, watching people be assaulted and being assaulted yourself that how do you protect?
self, against the possibility that you're exaggerating the threat because you
you know, you're sample is biased, you're in the middle of the dam riots. All the time.
Yeah, I think that's a fair question and unfair criticism. I.
though, the instances of ultra violence that I've seen an arab region about unrecorded video for those are- and it goes, are important, but are not a fool stairway and in my the purpose are writing
on mass. My book was to satellite really on the ideology that I think is, is ultimately much much more dangerous than,
he says this is a violence that lead to people.
You seriously injured or or killed, and not, I think it's it's a beam and a subject that you discuss the point in your speeches in your right and supervisory. It's about disbelief that for pursuing this, just at frazier justice, anti racism, whatever name they wanted.
they believe I know no acts that they can make. Another goes too far and that sort of thing
Europe is not a lovely entering, would not be a lovely thing to have on your side. To imagine it
you're, so virtuous in your pursuits.
That you are now entitled to do absolutely anything to anyone whenever you want, I mean, if you
view if you have that kind of cognitive structure I mean. First of all, you not very self reflective is like do. I really think that I'm so happy.
All that I can give myself a free hand to do anything and so on
increasingly sceptical about large
scale ethical claims of that sort. You know well, this is so important that well
at what exactly well,
depends on how important it isn't it. Well, we could climate change,
good example of that. Well, if it's the ultimate invite
Mental catastrophe everywhere it's going to happen within twenty years, then. Well, we should
everything well, ok,
Let's get detailed about this. Does that mean we get to beat up andy know if he's not bad,
Happy about climate change ways, just one guy, you know, and it's a planet,
talking about here-
you know that's independent in some sense of whether there are warranted concerns on the environmental front. I know there are like the oceans are overfished. For example, that's not a good thing, it's stupid. We should stop doing it, but
it's this moral licence that goes along with his claim to virtue that really scared the hell out of me in its also the fact that you can instantly demonize your enemies, because, if you're so virtuous, that everything is just
fight than anyone who opposes. You is virtually satan themselves. Yes, I've seen this with my own eyes: demonization dehumanizing,
showed one of the really shocking things I witnessed last year at the beginning, the riots- I was an undercover. So again I couldn't I couldn't intervene, because if I did it would
potential blow my covered, I could get seriously injured a girl, but this isn't it
days after george had died and the writing had not got up widespread outside a mania.
there was a man that was targeted by the mob. He was accused of being the right wing. I, whatever accusations, true or false, I dont know I used to beat him up. They got him on the ground and then one of them.
with glee. Russia has had and kicked his keeping an eye on you. You could actually
the teeth on the ground
and what do you mean by with what do you mean by with glee? Why that phrase, the crowd around him celebrated that was coins, person, a fascist and was happy, but using
was it he was cry and how, and how can you tell me, how could you tell they were happy what exactly where they do it? They are. My was on the basis that they were looking at the fleeting person on the ground.
Here I want to know how you see it's hard to see exactly what would it started?
exactly what moral claim would justify that smile.
So. What do you think's really going on there just started of
see, you arched it right up close to what are they?
people celebrating like
but what is it in them? That's responding to that, while you
with glee, you know that that that's a very specific word. So what is
that their celebrating far as you can tell they think I'm a fascist voracious, got the violence against and that he deserved
yeah? But I dont believe that you know. I don't believe that is what they celebrated, because I dont think. I don't think there that good,
I think there are celebrating watching some poor son of a bitch get hurt in the town
as far as something unbelievably dark in their souls like the desire to burn the desire to burn down buildings, the desire to melt cars, the dire for them,
god, damn thing to go up in flames, cause they're, resentful and bitter.
We can't take these things at face value right, it's like! No, no you don't understand. You're, smiling and laughing was someone just got his teeth kicked in
trial, no jury, no defence
he's on the ground is more by
by overwhelming force,
and you're celebrating that in your telling me, that's because your virtues,
I think so.
And this is the danger facing right with with which this on the on in all these acts,
this group's I've. Had people like that at my come in protest
Against me, I can kind of spot them because I have some clinical training. I can. I can tell the guys
it's almost always meant.
and they are always almost always there to prey on unsuspecting women by being their ideological affiliates
damn guys, man the worse, it goes the happier they are. I wanted to ask you about the days a year. You, your knowledge, about grandeur, clinical experience. What what is it? The psychology of the mob violence.
When I see it it like, I dont even recognize somebody's been seen.
in animals stickers when I meet
in no other animals.
Worse than animals because animals they just killed, eat. You know human
things, they have a twisted in them that makes them far worse than animals when they really get going well. I think it's
you really want to know what I think
its revenge against god for the crime of being. That's really what I think it's kane
cape can enable that's like labels, you're able
if the guy, a god, what do I take them out in the field, beat him to death? How do you feel about that
All my sacrifices went and rewarded here, slake
Yeah, that's what it is at the bottom of the hail of things.
and so you know these people they can like the whole world on fire and nuts, partly what you're so I did
Your answer to one question, sorry about the potential warping
your viewpoint because you're so much in the action like how do you
you know what I mean if you're in that all the time.
that becomes your world in some sense and how do you
That you're not exaggerating the threat because you're in in it all the time, because I describes step by step what what what is happening- and let's say this particular anecdote of portland in the summer of twenty twenty. But then I also follow that up with certain doubters, the consequences. The political consequences are the same cortland. Last year, the city council depot to the fun along portsmouth, based on the demands of the radical left axis and those who carried out violence. They defined the police, they also abolished.
the gun, violence reduction, cheap and a part of my report is a crime. Is the crime forty, but you're going to cities in areas? I know what does not was the united states and we see now we have a financial data, the number of violent crimes that have shot up ever since the death of george void last year in boardman, another merit major american citys gorman this year. Twenty twenty one has now surpassed its record all time back that for homicide
and in this is a direct consequence of the political decisions that were made by local politicians,
response to their constituents as well as outsiders, going in carrying out acts of political violence and carrying having certain demands? Albert okay? So that when you point two
greatly. So, ok, let's take that apart a little bit so.
you haven't any ideology. The core this I want to go through
Is really programmatic really one of the things that sort of any kind of,
angle, a bunch of questions here together. So these these core people,
it's not so obvious to me that they are simply left wing. You know cause well,
Some of them are anarchists: okay, like what the hell's an anarchist exactly as he left wing or right wing. It's like in some sense it doesn't matter. I know I know
ideas matter. That is what I'm sake, but in some
It doesn't matter because that person, whose desire
to be violent is is working
to burn the whole. Damn thing down
for whatever reason you know and- and
he also describe them as paramilitary and organised militia and there's kind about there's a rat there's a right wing flavour to that right. The uniforms because
uniform is more an element of the right and the left all thing
considered, and I know that things get hard conceptually when the when the opposites touch.
Right and people debate about whether the national socialists were left wing or right wing, and the answer was while they work a mixed, complex mixture of both in the worst of both in some sense, although in may
not worse than stolen or MAO, but so
and so that also means that people on the left can point to in teeth or even the violent types and say well, you know what makes you so sure there are left wing and why should we bear the the mark of their disquiet?
you know as a stain on our political police? So then, ok now
So there's ambiguity about the real radicals, and it's certainly too
greed that their radical the degree to
they can so confusion about their political ideologies all to their benefit right. So if both the right
moderates and the left wing. Moderates
to them and say well, you're, left wing or right wing, depending on what their turn to justify and that
screws. The system up if their hard core
anarchists great, you know, that's all the better. They just
into their hands. Ok, and then you, u pet, you,
You laid out a pathway from that violent interchange, too
policy decisions like defend the police, for example,
pulling back of law enforcement? And then you said: well, that's destabilizing cities, that's actually what's happening, that's that's data, and so.
But it's not that easy to trace
it's not so easy to trace that back to the radicals themselves, except in so,
Or as they want to destabilize right, the ideological trail isn't isn't so clear. So now is a question in their well. I guess that's the one of the question:
is it reasonable to characterize the radical extremists as either
all right. Do you do you think? That's actually helpful. I characterize them the far left and I can understand
There may be confusion about the ideology, so, to me, odds very frequently come across people on the right to describe antifa as a radical democrats are radical liberals nuts incorrect and I think what makes me give gave a partisan label to the chief ideologies, because by their own admissions and their tax and the philosophers that they look too it's this fusion of both anarchism as well as communism. So they what makes them different
the traditional revolutionary communists of previous decades is that they are not looking for creating a tyrannical and top to bottom state communist regime. In fact, they feel that communism failed in part because it was in
are implemented in that way and in china, the soviet union. They believe in the abolishment of the state- and this is where the-
I could cite a body or ideology comes out, so that society can be organised in two communist country needs it, and so they tried some of these experiments in me.
Times last year in in them
At the height of the riots that happened in seattle, there was the capitol hill autonomous zone, otherwise known as Charles when I went up there, and that was this experiment that these anarchists communists Antifa actually put into practice. They were able to force police to evacuate from a police department and then promptly took over six blocks of a neighborhood not far from downtown, and they established a hard border in in it. They actually took attempts at state building in terms of. Ah, this is where you go to get your food. This is where you go to get your water
we don't or you don't, have to pay, for it, says mutual aid we're going to do our gardening in the park and they actually try to grow fruits and vegetables and the very that's actually pretty funny- that's actually quite funny the garden in the park. The thing in it, because really that's that's your solution. You dimwit
that's really what you're doing now! Ok, so let me hammer you're, not a bit so let's say: could
was reading your book. I thought okay. Well, one of the solutions is arrest. People who break windows
enough of this like when they break the law arrest them. It doesn't matter what their political background isn't. Then you think well, you know. Well do you really want to? I remember in toronto, when the the g seven came to downtown toronto.
They basically turn the whole damn city into an armed camp, and I walked out.
by the barbed wire and cement borders, and I thought goddammit you're turning this city into a prison and if you don't think you're going
if prison riots, because you did that you're, a fool and so
so like? I'm, not a big fan of authoritarian states and
then I might say: well. Is it ok in the? U s if the state is loose enough in some sense to allow these foolish
experiments to take place, because maybe by doing so by being that loose, I mean I know the right. You have the riots, that's not good, but by being that lose it gives us a chance.
For these ideas
to manifest themselves into small scale, prove their total lack of validity and their incoherence and then just sort of disappear
the alternative would be to cry
down, in some sense, more police to stop
violence in the riots and into arrest people who are clearly breaking the law- and we can talk about why that isn't happening to, but so what
think about that like is it is it is- is a sign of a functioning democracy that its loose enough to allow such things to happen. I I think you to stop to go on under normal circumstances. It is if the protesters are the people who were
somehow discontent? How does the self awareness recognise went to give it up, but the thing with the these extremely society
they ve never met when they're wrong. They call. They always interpret history and contemporary auctions as when it fails it's because we didn't
I hot enough to realise that the democratic mercy, Otto jenny talking she took her hands off approach to the autonomous and she thought. Okay, it would look article we really about
and in the national guard to get all the law enforcement across seattle. Actual amount ad
yeah. I know this automatic smell to shut it down, let's give them that space and she she went on cnn and this infamous clip when she was asked about it. She said hey, it could be from a blog
in her eyes now outside. We know what happened hey. We know bloody well what happened after the summer of love,
was the rolling stones concert and the hales angels, and so forth. Its like the summer of love, deteriorated into anarchy, Hell pretty much instantly. So that's a fairly foolish metaphor, let's say: ok
so she letting it only sorry to interrupt you fine. So during the day it did look like a street party, and that was when the journalists were there asked when you would see the videos and photos giving out people giving out free food
I'm people supporting one another, providing everything that you need with free of costs and families could go in and out freely, but at night is where the true side about autonomous sun came out, which is that when you have no rule of law, true anarchy, then how? How do you bring order to
They are people who are violent, extreme and willing to kill a rape and saw the corso. What happened over three weeks is that, in these terms,
from these women. Why one woman was nearly rate. People started fires in the streets and this is a really begun. Three. This is really densely packed neighbourhood, high high rise buildings, so people live there. The buildings were set on fire in shootings, occur
almost every night and there were six shooting. So why did you leave only that one? That's really! Ok! So that's real! Let's! Let's take that apart to ok. So look we
You stand pretty well as as actual
social scientists. What
happens, when it's a summer of love.
Ok, so imagine you put a group together of
well? Who were only agreeable so there
compassionate and so,
temper mentally so- and maybe let's say, let's make them like ethically so as well. So not only are
Compassionate temperament
but they built an ethic around them
so all they do is cooperate like mad. Well,
let one psychopath in there and all hell breaks loose because there's no defences against a psychopath and that's the free rider problem. Now I talk
robert Travers he's one of the world's great evolutionary biologists, but a week and a half ago about the free rider per
than the cheating detection problem. So and if that's the problem
just outlined dislike. If everyone's cooperating
and then there's no enforcement.
The stage is set for
absolute exploitation of
cooperating group by anyone who doesn't share that ethic, and so
yours maginnis, so
women are more agreeable than men, some more empathic, and so,
that's kind of rough on women, because because the men are less empathic there,
their harsher and rougher, and tougher and meaner and more blunt and so women put up with a lot better.
Of that, because a really disagreeable man can be quite brutal now
that can be hint homes. Hemmed in.
Other traits like conscientiousness and etc, will just keep it simple for now. So there
why do women want less agreeable man, s beauty?
the beast by the way it that's the conundrum there right. Well, because.
Need someone who's, not that agreeable to keep you
from someone who's. Really not that agreeable.
and so men exist- and this is part of sexual selection- men exist on this weird line, a where they have to be.
so agreeable enough to keep the real criminal psychopaths at bay. Those are the guy,
you come out at night right and then
have to be agreeable enough to be empathic enough to be generous and share a
tight line in its one that women are negotiating. All the time in trevor said that no, it was
I talked to David bus to bust said that
young women are really attracted to dark. Try
guys, they're, machiavelian and manipulative, but their confident, and so
I now look successful and there are the risk takers they kind of have the the persona
of daring success, but are there their dark there? There
border on psychopathic, but
the women get more mature there less likely to be taken in by that, so any anyways.
so this summer of love, the summer of love problem is what happens at night. Ok,
Why do you think it happens at night and not during the day?
Out of curiosity, you ve been there like what are you watch and whose who's coming out at night exactly
there were gang members who were there and there they were on. I think they took advantage of the little literal anarchy and that they could go to a place where there was no police, because there was a hardwood. There are hog waters. I was surrounded this on zone, so in law enforcement kept away, and so that was just to protect them,
fortunately for criminals to go to and what? What? What did they want to do? What? What is it?
that it gave them free rein to do shootings.
ok. So that's what that's kind of odd. So
who are they shooting? I mean look if its gang warfare, you know why their shooting each other, it's usually guys who are looking for status, who ve been shot.
In some way or out to prove themselves like theirs,
wouldn't sociology of of that kind of shooting?
why are these guys go into this free zone summer
thing in shooting who were they shooting and why another name, but they on trade and ended up murdering a six year old. As far as I know, nobody knows suspected.
been identified in that case and how it was not handled by the mainstream media. That particular than does that's quite. Do then yeah. That was then the second murder that happen at the top of the sun sudan. By then, the press started to be a bit more critical because that was nearing three weeks at that point, a lot of the residents were feeling a bit more bold and to speak out and ultimately, to the not anonymously but unable to the press about what the witnessing what their hearing at night. I was there and what I like that I was there. A burglar broke into a car repair business
and allegedly tried to start a fire inside of her? The owner was there and he had security. So he detained this individual. The news went out and they had a speaker system set up in the autonomous zone with a microphone, and somebody went up to the stage and sat at a black person was being held by some racist whites and the entire mobbed sprinted. To this business broke down the barrier at the business
got in and got there and felt a great guy out on the business on her side, he told press later on that he had called police about a dozen times.
just one response and when they do with him,
Listen! I got away
oh, he got away icy icy.
Some might think. We're didn't mention out yet you're talking about
This is on your way. I couldn't come deadly other boy. Now again, this is one of those things like I'm watching and I you know I feel so helpless unaware that I'm observing and if they start to kill this business owner
but there was nothing I could do. Police want responding. They had already received many many.
phone calls about that that incident and they didn't respond, but I bring up the case of the charges just sort of like this one example, but like in a real life manifest.
Nation of this anti ideology is external parts. Are you could argue a nice like this aspect of community building that I witnessed during the day was thereby it seemed like
like a religious community in that they recognise. Let's, let's, let's take that apart a bit here, can ok so, first of all, let us not forget that this data
utopia, existed in the middle of the richest country in the world. Ever produced is like so
the fit were giving things away for free. They have no cost. It's like nano. Someone else bore the cost that food didn't magically appear out of nowhere, nothing
that satiate hunger comes
cost, nothing that provide shelter comes without a cost, and so this is
official utopia set up by clueless
juveniles who-
no sense whatsoever of how privilege they are there so privilege they think food is free.
No they're. The reason there that privileged is because food
damn near free.
And the reason for that is that we
even a miraculous society. That's made food free.
This is because it has no cause man, you think, of all the blood. That's been spilled over the centuries to pay for that
terrible struggle that it took us all to figure out how to do that. That's not free.
you know, and it's an appalling indictment of our education system that anybody can come out of it. Thinking that way
even during the day, so you have- and it's this
with the san francisco summer of love? In some sense, you know that could have
We're come about at all even to the degree that did without there being there
unbelievable, large and and plenitude that characterizes modern western societies.
so I mean when we see people on the street even and and
saying that being on the street is not a terrible thing, but it's a complicated thing.
We don't see people who were skeletal. We see people who have enough to eat
And so it's just rubbish rate from top to bottom and and to think of to have a politician say well,
we know. Maybe it could be a summer of love, so what they are?
I mean exactly are:
system is so broke that view
ireland clueless radical juveniles can
but surely occupy a part of the city
and in two weeks make something better, really
what the hell I dont get it now. You talked about optics. So let's so I've been talking to these Democrats, for example, about how to
conduct yourself ethically in the political domain. I've been talking to Republicans as well in one of these
We sort of zero. The unknown is this idea of instrumentality. You know if you're doing something, for
particular goal. Maybe
almost regardless of what that goal is
You tend to use people for your end and you might say what we have to stop trump. So it's ok to use this person for that end, but
I don't buy that at all
think there's something deeply wrong about it. You know, and so when I do these podcast, for example, I'm what
really trying to do is just to find out some things I dont know I dont really
I have a plan. Like my did, I have a plan to talk to you I'll, tell you what my plan was. It was like. Well, I'm going to read as much of it,
these book, as I can manage in in the time I have to do it, I'm going
do my background. Research to the degree
I can can't I'm gonna. Ask him a bunch of questions about things I dont understand. That's the whole
plant in this
instrumentality. We look
how to get rid of this idea- that we can use people foreign and I don't care what the damn end is
If you and I are doing this right, we're having an honest conversation, that's all we do it and that's a hard thing to do so. Ok, so back to
ok your answer to whether not you're exaggerating this was to point to the consequences, like the defined the police, that sort of consequence in the destabilization of cities like minneapolis and portland.
and how these stabilize do you think they have become because of this? But did you stabilizing the sunset d? The people who are dying are mostly black and brown people so
the elite, liberal class of the city's dont, really their own experience that loss of life. If you know
they may hear the gunshots more frequently in the streets. They may see this.
Is shuttered or damaged because of bullet wounds. But it's not it's not people in their families and their friends uncles who are dying. So I in some in some ways, are kind of always protected from the console.
this is of the political decision making a political demands. I think what
other thing about yeah
if we look at hierarchies, if you look at the way hierarchies work and animal kingdom for example, so even that's a birds that really don't live in flaw
They still have a hierarchy and high
Turkey is some birds, have better nesting sites.
their closer to food. They don't get it.
Those two wind and rain so much and their birds that are generally
better physical health. There, like soda.
Birds, it or in better physical health. Let's, let's leave it at that. They sing louder, songs, the males they attract higher court,
be healthier female mates they have the good nests can now a flu come
Through that area of avian flu, the birds die
from the bottom of the hierarchy, up
oh that's very much in keeping with what you're describing right is that as well
Move up our hierarchies, whether their based on competence or power.
Shield ourselves from stress: that's
why we actually want to move up the damn hierarchies, and so then, when things get destabilized, people die
the bottom up? That's! What's the old saying when the when the upper class catches called lower class dies of pneumonia,
And so that's a luxury belief problem too. Isn't it is we can have these addlepated? You talk
In schemes that we
to pat ourselves on the back for ethical superiority we can fund.
Implementation, because you talk about that interesting lay in your book right these,
doing organizations funnily money into these more violent extremists groups we
pat ourselves on the back for standing up for the oppressed and when things go sideways. Well, it's just the oppressed the dot.
So I can't figure out why I left stands for this. You know that's the thing I can't get is that I thought you guys were for the working class. I think how this was demonstrated in one way there
clearly, once last year in minneapolis money from the worst riding broke up, there
Does the minister freedom fund, which was set up to provide jail support
What are illegal support for those who were arrested and charged with crimes related to the riots and the public raise thirty five million us dollars for that belt, and so everybody was bailed out, and there was
millions more to spare come over here. You calls them far left. You specifically called Minnesota that minnesota freedom. Sorry, it was m, F, F, minnesota freedom fund fund, you called I went
does the board members there to see who they weren't. You know that their professional types most of them
The activists, some of them lawyers, etc. I mean it, looks like a perfectly legitimate site so why
did, you call them far laughed, and why do you think they're not legitimate cause? That's a pretty that's a pretty deadly epithet coming!
your tongue, given what you seen and and hurt so is that was that
justifiable that episode and if so, why, I think so, because he see the police assemblers undergrowth being that the whole project of re freedom, fine, is that the criminal justice
system should be abolished, as is not wrong? Claim your ears? Okay. So so I want to push you on that, because I like to talk about
civics, and I notice that you called them far left, and so
Well. You just made a pretty radical claim. So I'm going to read a criticism about you that I found on Wikipedia, if you don't mind, because this is a good time to introduce it yes, but it snows,
coverage of antifa muslims has been controversial. Ok, that's true!
and the accuracy and credibility of his reporting have been disputed by other journalists yeah well, so what right does, of course he has been frequently,
used of sharing misleading or selective material. That's a little more pointed
a criticism described as a pro
katir anarchy
of having links with militant right wing and far right groups in portland,
ok. So now you talk about the minnesota freedom, fun. You say far left and someone said,
tackle watching this is going to think. Well, of course, that's what andy? No thanks, because he's linked with militant right
and far right groups in portland and is a problem provocateur and then you're
also a disciple of James O'Keefe, the founder of project.
heritage which is labelled-
wikipedia as a right wing activist group? Okay? So so, given all that
Why should we believe your characterisation of the minnesota freedom fund?
you know this. Isn't that me attempt into a hook you, but
But I want to know because this is the
centric circle problem right. We identified the activists, they just want everything to burn
and so there nobody's friends if their sense, if there are sensible, but now we're talk,
in the oldest circle outside that? That's the minnesota freedom fund and from there you move into, let's say the democratic, the left wing of the democratic party as a whole. So this
crucial issue, so you said,
want to abolish the criminal justice system.
How do you know that? Why do you think that's a reasonable claim where you can look at those who were involved in running that freedom? That day often is part of this. What was the fringe belief on the last part? America so from it's founding to today? So it says racism is built into every single institution that it's not simply. You cannot reform it that what needs to be done is to they say, burn it down, abolish this abolish that completely and get rid of it all, because it's irredeemable and unfixable, and
I think that that radical taper believes that drives bail funds like the minnesota freedom find like pediatrics, how you believe, how does that believe drive their bail
and in what are they doing wrong by building these people out? And how do you know that's linked to an eighty ology like the one you just described, because they believe that the criminal justice system targets left is black and brown people in so anybody who is charged the crime are, but that's not. It is not legitimate within the system, because the entire institution policing the court's judges. All of that.
The bargain is white supremacist and whether or not the individuals involved in it actually erases it doesn't matter to them. They see the system is racists and therefore needs to be abolished,
yeah yeah. You know so one of the markers for this might be that real proclivity to you
low resolution characterizations, you know like
enlarging the cop twenty sixth debacle, let's say and
one of the things that really struck me was target zero and I'm thinkin
target zero. Eight zero
Zeros, an interesting number
zero means none, no pollution.
Without these you don't get to go to the bathroom anymore, zero. You know alike.
Everything has a mass and how about how bout some habits?
incremental improvement in a positive direction. You know you're
it seems to me the thinking gets so
B and self congratulatory, as we
towards statements like? Thus,
system is broken. It's like
system? Has a lot of parts a lot,
they're, not all broken. You can tell that cause. You can plug your toaster in
in the morning and pay you put some bread and
which you can also get by the way, and then you have toast. That's that's not broken.
and so it's this injudicious critique and that speaks of
carelessness failure
to be on the ground and moral self congratulation and its extreme.
Then also in
dignity enough. It also speaks to that leftist preoccupation in some sense with honour and privilege right because the
the time that you can
it away with thinking that sloppy as if you're so protected from the consequences of your own failure to grasp the essentials of life that having that
take doesnt actually cost you anything
People on CNN, who are viewing the department right,
from afar they're, not
having their house burned down there, not gettin, beat up in the street, so
It doesn't really matter that
this low resolution view of it and so that letter
So, let's go into the criminal justice system for a minute,
can do lock up a lot of people right
western democracy, they ve got quite the damn prison system going now along
with a rapid acceleration. In that prison system. There was quite a rapid decline in violent crime from say so.
from the eightys to a couple of years ago,
And I dont know what the causal links are there and I'm not I'm not making the case for a link.
In the present system and the declining criminality, because it's complicated, but they do law couple
People you guys lock up a lot of people. You yankees and a disproportionate
number of them are black, and so that's that's a problem. That's a big!
problem. It's like the incarceration rates, a big problem and the racial disparities, a big problem, and it does beg the question well to what
raise this system corrupt. It begs the question of to what degree
Corrupt system serves those the people in power who are, let's say, disproportion.
Less likely to be black, particularly and so.
and then you can see how that the guilt about that which is felt really brought
we, especially among empathic, liberal types increase,
the probability that they're going to turn a blind eye to any manifestation of what seems to be associated in even a vague way against that, and I don't
Exactly know what
we should do about it. You know it
really a car. So sorry, I'd like to have
thoughts on those matters. I can t vagaries of things at the airport,
such as using tons of sight in the system. Brenda
abolish systemic racism.
These things are not defined really because I think by intention they never want their goals to be reached, they need they exist almost and they deem the radical fallout out revolution fallout whatever, as they need to exist in opposition to something so over and over. Like I say last year, all these mass, all these city councils were giving in to essentially all the demands you want to define. The police firewall was slashing above the budget. You want to abolish this gun, violence reduction team, fine, we'll do that and
you want please stay back away from this police department will give you that it was never never not in fact, in every time that these rights are an important point. The man with the mayor in seattle, areas undertake
you later weapons demand for more extreme actions, was stronger than these extremists and when they didn't get that important and for example, the rioters went to the home of the point. The man had wheeler and actually set the building on fire in he ended up having to move out of it
his conduct, he apologized his neighbors and is essentially in hiding in a way we don't know where he lives. Now in seattle,
the rapporteur, does not do that. Did. Did that not changes viewpoint in some important manner, or did he feel that the protesters we're so just
find that it's no bloody wonder they tried to burn down his house.
What's the psychology there as far as you can tell- and I think after that experience and after the the mayor of seattle experience something similar engines are cheaper showing up at her at her door and they they gave fewer concessions after that and were in in the language leading forward that I'd seen in some of the decision making pulled back on for the eye and the left, the radicalism that they had embraced in the early months of the rioting they didn't pull back,
We don't pull back enough that you know there. There was several things. For example I like and the the mere much more than willing to speak critically of violent riots that were happening,
the city, whereas before it was also, it had same effect. Yet there was always criticism before, but then there was always. You know. This is taking place in the context of historic racial justice protests and we can make something great holiday. He he went, he didn't. He didn't always qualify his statements moving forward, which I think were were meaningful or important. I regard it
but before I forget, I wanted to go back on the evaluation of the wikipedia articles. I guess I only had learned for any freedom, fungi. No. We wish that still hanging because you call them far laughed and now I just told you far right who the hell can trust you, so
How do we wade through this? So the I've been one of the ways that anti far and their sympathisers in some publications
price and try to deliver two eyes. My work in my boys is to posit I'll put out this idea that, because I am against anti far by default, then that must mean that improve faster them. So they try now four years to throw any type of accusation out me and hoping it knowing that it falls but hoping die. Even if it does it state completely that another laughed
in the same state as before, but as always, I'm always dirtied in a way, and they ve been a failure that works. I mean I was nervous about talking to you. It works man, it works and believe me, I've experienced the same thing and it does
Take much disdain, someone's reputation right, especially because
there are seven billion people in the world. There's no way, I'm going to talk to all of them, and so.
you're gonna need hardly an excuse. It ought not to talk to someone so
a little stable do the trick, and so this
this james, o keefe thing your disk.
by your critics as a disciple of James. Ok, ok, the founder of profit
where a right wing activists group. So what's this
with that exactly what a disciple would that was sent to imply that, like I've, been men to work for a long time by party birdhouse james o keefe, which I have it, but for the record I am very supportive of the work that they do. I think they do re investing dame that's the resources, money and time getting people to be under cover journal.
stood required things I. Otherwise you will never get on record. Understand a lot of criticisms again in an hour then raised. Are they reasonably? Conceptualize is a right wing activist group with what exactly does
what freeze mean in this context? You think? Well, that's actually disparaging, I think, gave me it's probably fair to describe them as conservative,
I'm in the journalists there as a conservator, but I dump with what they do is important. For example. They and I thank them in my book because they provided to me some of the primary documents of when one of their.
on this point and other covering thoreau city anti drugs, and not something that today, nobody else in anywhere in the united states has been able to do to actually get somebody who is completely unknown located. You go man, build a whole new identity persona and get this present infiltrate the group in terms of the membership process as much as possible that take on work deserves,
praise condemnation, and I guess the fact that I've been
on record supporters are broadly varied house people trying to use up just near me. I think the more serious accusations have been levelled levelled against state spurious ones are accusing me of
being like him down with violent extremists on you. I know it and right wing and far right groups, important okay. So what what's the story there? What? Why and you know cause
you Karl, you said every projection has to have a hook
there's gonna be ways you're gonna be smeared that will work.
Gonna be ways that you're gonna be smeared that won't work and the ones that work there's a hook. Great,
something about you that makes that stick a little better
and so we all have to examine our consciences when we get smeared, because you think well, you know, do I have
weak spot that I'm unaware of that makes me much more susceptible to that particular accusation.
And so you know you said, while you're you're a critic,
antiphon, that's enough for you to be labelled as right, wing and fair enough, but, like any
in else lurking around there. That makes you an easy target of that sort of accusation. I'm glad you out so this really started so after I was beaten by angie fine in the summer of twenty nineteen. That was when my profile rose a lot before that I was just a regional small figures, occasionally interviewed on fox news, but otherwise really unknown. I think what I notice after that was, and so what happened was a few months after that a local left
alternative publication important, I called the corner. Mercury did what they said was as close as steroid to expose me. They had to interviewed a person given this individual, a pseudonym today. I still don't know who this individual is like the real identity, but they accused with and provided no evidence. They thought that I was in the process.
Of wine. A right wing right was being planned against and cheaper, and I had an agreement against the right wing brawlers for mutual protection. That was the word this individual. The sitting in this present such I was never reach for comment for the story,
and then it was printed on a local blog and then picked up by journalists on the left who sought to discredit me such I think there was daily beast slay, the same places that have gone after your professor, and so they repeated this claim, and I had my legal counsel signed a cease and desist letter to the publication, and then they they just ignored it and living in the? U s, as you know, to to actually win defamation when you're a public figure, particularly against the newspapers, it's so it's near impossible. So
I felt really helpless and to this day, I'm still really furious about it that this person, who just levied a serious accusation against me. I have no idea who it is, and I have no wage you've encounter like to confront my useless,
Well, you don't have one way.
Way is just tell the truth: yeah fright I mean
that, does counter you're, accuser and every time that something like that's been happened, carbon to me.
At least so far. Ultimately, it backfired,
now I mean I'm knocking on. Would you know- and I know that you know maybe my days are numbered in all sorts of different ways, but so far it has,
sometimes it's taken a long time for the for the tide turn
always turned, and so I would say if you still,
billy rage about that, like one thing,
take solace in, is that to the degree that your cable,
of representing the truth. That is the best protection you have against anything, and I
think there is any better protection against anything than that, like the court's anything
that's like now, that's when you're playing a deep game
the only real defence you have his truth and lecture.
this reality itself, man, you have that on your side, it's it's walkin, softly, walk and carefully spy
softly, sorry and carrying a big stick. So you know
now that it's interesting to that you're still angry about that, because that's a hell of
to carry along and around with you. You know, corrodes you overtime,
that kind of anger and, and so it you're,
in pretty good, given all thing on things had been stacked up against you. So
I pray you angry, because I've always I've gone to you. My life like I have no, I dont have a criminal record
I have been arrested. I always do things right. You know I follow the rules, I dont support any political violence and then this persona identity, that other
Had made this made up, personal grew Andy always and has gotten many to believe it. You know they presented.
person who somebody who
he also made a person to a because their pseudonymous,
well, that's so interesting. They had to fabricate a person to fabricate you, and so it's just your excuse. I I've been wrong in that regard and I the evidence I was put out to try to support it. They said there was undercover video really provided was me documenting the violent brawl that happened in everything before and they said that because I was in presence
the presence in proximity to the people on the right that I was with them or part of them, which is completely untrue and that type of standard whenever be applied to other journalists.
The background is compliment. You know, is it how so.
While they obviously think you're threat right
we're thinking about right. I mean that's we're thinking about because it means you're successful enough so that people are willing to generate lies to take out and so.
I don't that's that small soulless yeah yeah we were talking
at the beginning this? How many times have you been beat up doing what you're doing and why the hell? Do you keep doing it? I then assaulted or attacked, and in total four times, two of which were really serious. The june twenty nineteen most people, I've seen those pictures were uncovered, and although the milkshakes are
I had a brain, hundreds beating so how that attacks on wednesday, the punch
really hard in the back of the head from behind
Ok, so dies worthy. That's worth thinking about. Ok, let's you think about that for a minute.
ok so now you also said these guys we're wherein fiberglass reinforce clubs Cato
here's the kind of courageous person who went after you. Is they wrapped?
fists and solid material, and instead of
Fronting you face to face like someone who's in a vaguely civilized might in in in a bar.
Well situation? Let's say they punched you in the
At the head,
well, that's the kind of person we're talking about right now and then
talking about someone else, it's even more than that is that they have managed to concoct for themselves. A story
both their moral virtue,
that's so blinding that they think that doing that was justified, they
told them a story to justify that particular action. So
Anybody who think someone like that is their friend better start thinking about what
mean by friend so and so
the consequences for you, like you're, still do in this way. How come after us all hours rushed to the hospital by every and added well swelling in meat
that happens on my face my eyes had- was bleeding all over bleeding from the air
c t scan was done on me and the doctor. Let me know hours later that I had a severe abnormal brain hemorrhage, which is bleeding in the brain very serious, and I had about a year of like cognitive speech, therapy physical therapy and to draw some of the
deficiencies I had immediately after the saw it's been two and a half years now and I'm studying the cognitive issues. This is what makes me so
angry, because nobody is other than arrested for me these
this assailant. Someone took something away from me forever day. I had a memory issues and
by minors, not the same as before us that idea words, but I what
like four you'd gone back to your next riot after you after you
inferred from this or partially recovered from a mean. What was that day,
You decided you go cover something:
else violent. Tell me what
it was like. I wasn't able to do it for many many months afterward and when I did it it was. I had ptsd, like this overwhelming fear, which wasn't irrational need sentences. If these people knew who they were, they would give me
and impulsively kill me they have been running a kill me dozens and dozens of
on social media, with your emails or phone calls where they would actually graffiti across the city to landing on better
Yeah I've seen those pictures man, so this assignment of violence was was real. I went,
count it. You know I got a lot of criticism there were, but because I put myself on a risk,
earlier this year may I was beaten again when I was exposed
the criticisms
What do you mean to courageous? Is that the problem?
then we know as the undue courageous man. No, no it's the right way to interpret it,
You know what I'm asking about foolhardiness right because, like you got, hurt, bowed, and so I am asking you know how do you
it's not time to hang up the shingle and do something that won't get you killed,
Then you should. That is not what I'm saying but
but it is worth asking yourself that question, and so you did go back into the fray soul,
and you got criticized for, of course, by people who wouldn't do that. That's for sure
And there are sensible, you know whatever that means, but
so. Why do you do it? And how did you overcome that fear man? Because of course you had something approximating ptsd and this isn't some abstract fear like you could be killed your damn near killed so
it's you- can do a hell of a lot of journalism from the comfort of a computer anywhere in the world. However, the further that you are physically removed from one of the you're reporting, you'd reporting on you introduce, is much much easier, introducing
fires. So, for example, the journalists who were bureau death in euros- and you see a new yorker reporting about anti far in on the west coast and comfort of there-
There does, in their offices, introduce a lot of the error. Here is, for example, the describing it as simply a movement against fascism and
I I needed to be on the ground as if that simple, like
their fighting fascism, are they exactly? How are they doing that and who are the fascists? And how do you define fascism and we try to fight that? Be
and it turned out to be pretty complicated. And so how is it that there simply fighting fascism? And who are these people that think that?
fighting fascism and why did they think they're, right, etc, etc?
etc, etc. So here simply,
That's that low resolution, thinking that that that really is it's part of our.
It's part of a self congratulatory privilege, blindness, that's for sure. Ok, so you need to be in the fray. As far as your concern to get facts right and we,
kind of walk through. Why,
you think that you're not exaggerating the threat right. You look at what happened in these cities in the broader political landscape,
If you don't mind, let's go back to that minnesota fats
fund again, because that was really a crucial issue. As far as I was concerned, because it has to do with these
centric circle is concentric circles issue case. So there there there,
helping people get out on bail as rapidly as possible. Who are the people that their getting out on bail and why did they
that's a good idea. They were completely indiscriminate
they all Bilbao people who were accused of being such as attempted murder and break
one at least one individual who was bailed out based on these funds, as was
went onto allegedly murder, another individual
ok, so that that adds credence dear claim that the idiot,
she driving. This is a low resolution critique of the entire justice system. Right, because you want indiscriminate in your deliverance of bail, if you didn't believe
whole damn system was so corrupt that everyone arrested by it is best. What would you call.
it's just a there, they were just address arrested for
arbitrary and an unreasonable, real reasons. So exactly
important than last year? We have. The sort of person last year is accused by the state, as was the federal government of using fire bonds
to attack police during a riot important portland, an individual. True,
to suspect mohammed ali. He and I were went from a different state. Deportment allegedly had training in Saint Louis was
what it allegedly aren't- cctv very stores buying things such as bats and components to meet the buyer bonds,
he was held on a two point: two million state. They are in a state of war again when he was arrested after investigation that involve daphne. I need here that the individual, with that? That's the highest. They also arose the thousand people who were arrested in riots in portland Oregon last year. They d be I'll, find import man raise the money and account for ten percent of today's bear, which is two hundred and twenty thousand dollars cash. They put to get this individual out again. It's it's from this believe that
yes I'll that there's no absolutely no legitimacy to the american criminal justice system for any act of sabotage such as getting out binding, allegedly violent people. People will accused of attempted murder people, even if you use a starving people in trying to kill others. All of that
They support and help him, because I just knew it as one more way of disrupting the system in a awaited causa too.
Make a pot and k, and so that that's what justifies you're accusations, let's say of far left- sympathies on the part of this particular fund and its the indiscriminate use of the money. Ok,
Let's go into the bail issue bit, so we can make a counter argument. We could say well look these
people are innocent before their tried right
we presume innocence.
Why bail exists at least two.
degree, because
you can get on with their lives when there get mangled up by us, just
system that certainly can be arbitrary and harsh, and rather in free
We can deliver in a true justice, because that's a heavenly ideal isn't that, and so so
could just say: well, look you know
bail was set. What the hell's so wrong with us, putting bail up and we're just help
people who don't have the means of fighting for themselves and yeah. Maybe they got carried away at a
demonstration, but people get to demonstrate, and that doesn't mean they shouldn't, while that we
help them out with bail
and now you made a specific point about this particular guy two point: two million bail right so
if there is any legitimacy in the justice system, that would be an indication that maybe he went beyond the pale by anyone,
double standards and
so how would you respond to collect and imagine someone from that funds sitting here? Listening to you, thinking no work, we're doing this for good reasons, and so what
you think about that kind of argument. I would be willing to concede out to them if they weren't willing to bail out people who were then arrested. Let's say two three, four: five, six seven eight times
then, of course, the two weeks when we see that its use essentially to get people out and then their allegedly go onto right within the same twenty four hour period, is arrested again. Bear them out again
then guys are my life
You know in a discriminatory aspect: there yeah, ok
ok, fine, that's good! I want to read some from your book. Ok, I'd like to talk to you about like a day, but where,
gonna be able to do it
Ok, so let me make her,
got a little story here,.
Yeah, this is from a section in your book where you're talking about tat but really about
what led to the ideas of defending the police and so forth in and about the fact that
There's any interference in
in a criminal matter between the police and someone who's black in this
the killer case that the police,
likely to be in terrible trouble for it, and you talk a little bit about the difficulties that
presents for law enforcement officers, who are at least some
I'm trying to protect black people as well from violent sub groups
so here is some you're talking about this guy.
He was arrested and shot by police. After fighting with cops in a residential area, he had shrugged off being hit with a taser round and reached inside his vehicle where there was a knife. This was all caught on camera blake. Who is
Can I warrant issued for his arrest by the wisconsin circuit court for a felony sex crime and others,
is related to domestic abuse, the criminal complaint for that
made twenty twenty incident, accuses break of, raping a woman with his hand in front of her child according to a
scanner audio on august? Twenty third officers responded to the same woman's residence after she called nine. When one and said blake was at her home again his criminal history in
did assaulting police, resisting arrest, carrying a firearm, intoxicated and use of dangerous weapon,
even though he survived the shooting. The response was again man,
carnage and looting in the streets of Canosa. Now this
The interesting part
did all that wasn't interesting democratic vice
Potential candidate camel Harris later visited blake and said she was proud of him. Ok,
so I'm gonna hammer you about that first, because I want to get to the bottom of this. Did
Take her words out of context. Proud of him. Do you think, like are you,
This is a pretty serious accusation right.
This guy does not sound good, in fact, he's
pretty much like the antithesis of good and if a vice-
Presidential candidate than this
did him and
she was proud of him and that's it can
extremely accurate quote, then, while
what the hell, which is really the point you are making their so did our.
to being fair to kamila Harris. I think so. So I think at that time and she and much of the public just weren't aware that this was was the crimes that he's been accused of was convicted of
as its history, but is that what we see over and over is the contacts of who these individuals are grumbled with from the sometimes deadly encounters of police,
it is almost like their whole. Their whole history is irrelevant and only thing that matters and software black essential
I think, dot com alone, another democrat politicians viewed him as a george floyd, two point: oh type of figure,
Well only what was announced, which is a black man who had been shot by police district this either discarded evidence early evidence. I was known about some of his criminal history. Some of it emerged more of it emerged later. That type of stuff was irrelevant to the narrative at hand, because the kenosha riots were a part of riots that occurred in many other cities within this whole movement for racial justice and police reform, which the Democrats, in my view, very cynically, use as a campaigning point,
I was on the way to about her. Ah there, the trumpets campaign, why cynically you
Does you know? Part of what I've cannot come to understand is that some of this stuff
is worse because it's not cynical
you know what I mean is: there's a cynical element and because people act instrumental, they want to win an election, for example, and they think that they need to win at all costs, because you know, look what were preventing and I go,
yet the malevolence in the cynicism, but it's me
scary, when you see that it's actually good people
people as good as you are as good as I am that are caught up in this sort of mass, you know because it points to how complex and sticky and horrible it really is so mean. Did you know
talked about the incarceration rates and the disproportionality of incarcerated people in the black community
It really is a problem. You know, and it might be a severe enough problem to bring the whole mess down right. We don't know it's a real problem.
and it isn't going way easily.
And we can't even talk about it, not not not deeply.
And so then we we fall into these low resolution categories. The kind you just said is like well that justice system is
I used against black people, and so whenever
black person is treated badly by law enforcement. There's this reflexive move just to note the systemic inequality and to be on the side of the person who is a member of a group that is incarcerated at a much higher rate than other groups, and so it points to some
to a real problem. Now, god only knows what the problem is it it is.
a problem right. First of all, its
ten thousand problems, and each
Those problems is really hard and you have to get a high,
resolution map of them, but- and you know, we-
I know why you went after carmella Harris's because well this isn't it,
to be proud of.
could have she known, or did you
Just not know, then that you know that's an import, it's a curse.
Your question, because lots of times you could know something if you want to, but you decide not to, I don't think she catch. You know because
a misuse of she's a former prosecutor herself. She has the resources to be able to call up some of these criminal right.
They are not just talking about things that ok
That's right, so you don't do their homework and she could have done it cause. I would say: ok, look she's busy like such
People are busy right there sketch. They are scheduled to this. Second, like twenty, like eighteen hours a day, so their busy and things can get by
them so you say well yeah, but she was a prosecutor, and so she
This sort of thing she could have done our homework right, then, and and to go in
that situation and say specifically that she was proud of this guy, like no that's
excusable because you have the expertise to know, and you could have take
the time to investigate who you were going to congratulate and did you
you know, did you let the camera opportunity,
get in the way, so to speak
The question you are raising uk, ok, ok
Well, this is I'm gonna talk about that particular story with these Democrats that I'm talking,
because you know one of the things I like about your book, I'm afraid we're gonna have to close on this there's a whole bunch of the
we should talk again. I guess that's really the issue, you know
I in the details
Your idea that you have to be there to do
what's going on weathers, real truth in that, and you know it
is the danger that, because you're there you're going to exaggerate the threat, that's the danger of being on the ground, and you know. Hopefully you can protect yourself against that, but I liked your book a lot and I and
made me think a lot about how these groups are structured and about how they
goes out of control sideways, and so you do
Journalism as far as I can tell it, that's all
that common anymore,
you didn't beat up, you know
has real journalism, put you in a war zone and people
killed in wars. So er, I'm glad you're. Ok, thank you, professor, and I'm glad that
Nobody about the I've had been a fan of yours for years now
The world missed you a lot for regard, I'm glad you're well enough there, and then you blast the public. With your your intellect. I appreciate that and I am thankful that you took time to
in my book and to give me an opportunity to speak with you. I feel I haven't read it all yet, but I'm going to and I'm going to try to get some of these Democrats that I'm talking to to read the damn thing too, because at very least you know what you did. That, I think was so useful is so imagined
they're pretty concerned about far right, radicals, psych, ok, fair enough,
and it's not easy to tell the far right radicals from the far left radicals anyway. So, but you know by
packing how these groups work, you
perform a real service in
of stopping the while the cycle
The radical type to really are always a threat to everything
Everyone sensible holds dear
You know you shed some light on the complexity of the detailed complexity of it and now
extremely useful
extremely useful to people who want to know what's going on
and so that is what journalists should do, its purpose of a free press, and you know what would you say I wouldn't say.
But what I say is, I can't say: congratulations, it's like it's quite some,
the net you put yourself in the line of fire. For that, it's not just words. You know it's not just words and and a hat and be brain damage from that's.
You know there are things worse than death and you got away intact, more or less, but it.
you could have been consigned to something that would be a living hell and then too
back into the fray. Despite that, it's, like you, put your
where your mouth is man good to talk to you.
Thank you, professor hope, to see in the uk.
the.
Transcript generated on 2022-12-29.