So in ninety ninety six, marcus buckingham burst onto the scene. Talking about these things, strength and harness them a mega best seller called the first break all the rules that was followed coming later by a book called down discovery or strength, which he co wrote with Donald Clifton, his kind of like the father of strength, and it was all about helping people flourish in work and life in that became a lifelong obsession of his leading to a really widely acclaimed d. Lee rewarding career as a researcher, developing strengths based tools and incites first at gallop and then launch his own. Consulting firm, marcus buckingham company to Marcus now leads the people and performance research team at atp research institute and remain cecile of his consulting company and his latest book.

nine lies about. Work takes an in depth. Look at some of the biggest lies that pervade the way that we work the way that we build organization and led some of the biggest mistakes that we make in building our own careers and leaving ourselves and others, and he also then reveal some of that virtues, truth or antidotes that put us back on the right track. In today's conversation, we dive into all of this his own personal journey, his encyclopedia, knowledge of data and information and wisdom, just dropping yeah was nonstop about the way we were so fascinating, so illuminating both to get in him as a person and his deep and insightful and incredibly valuable mind when it comes to the way that we make decision about our own work and life so excited

to share this conversation with you and by the way, be prepared to be surprised and awakened a bit along the way. I'm Jonathan fields- and this is good life project. The How does a I even work where it is creativity come from? What's this where, to living longer, ted radio, our explores the biggest questions with some of the world's greatest thinkers they will prize challenge and even change. You listen to and purist head radio. Our whatever you get your PA guests library, is supported by the economists, so the world seems to be moving faster than ever. Climate economics, politics, ai, a eyeing culture wherever you, events are unfolding at a rapid pace and it's hard to stay on top of it, which is why I love that now, for the first time, you can get a one month, free trial of the economist, so you won't miss a thing. I have literally

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So the ten percent happier podcast has one guiding philosophy. Happiness is a skill that you can learn. So why not embrace it? It's hosted by dan harris journalists who has a panic attack on national television and then send out on this journey of transformation and he's now on a quest to help others also achieve peace and happiness, and every week Dan talked you top scientists, meditation teachers. Even the odd celebrity in wide ranging conversations that explore topics like productivity, anxiety and lightness, psychedelic and relationships. The interviews cover everyone from bernay brown to cerebral ass to SAM Harrison more. I love learning from his questions and experiences and incredible guess think of listening to ten percent happier as a work out. For your mind, fine ten percent happier where every listen to pot casts there's a story floating around. Why guessing that even end and build a hold on, rounded, also about your interesting relationship with that, the instrument of trombone. Oh yes, I do

I groped just sidelined in a little town called red light, which is about twenty minutes has a london and then my parents that up my mom moved into Nottingham. My dad just moved outside the m twenty five I grew up with now the brotherly youngest sister and my brother was a really good pianist and a great compose is just super talented musically am I this there was a professional ballot answer and was also the musician. So I had an elder brother youngsters to her really musical. My dad was very intent on me being part of that tradition. Wanted to actually have an idea. You know how I wanted to be able to read music, the way to my brother, Kurt or site rhythm, my sister good, and, for whatever reason I couldn't make sense of the language or the grandma arrow. Somehow, the the music newness of music didn't quiets beat to me. I why someone did it you and dad bore me, because he wants

it two he bought trombone early, initially a trumpet, but then I guess my lips are too big or something so boom a trombone and I think his intent. He was the dad who would always do christmas or boxing day, concepts concerts and suffer the neighbours, and we have to do a play and he would make a play and then we have a saying in it and he was sure that I would be the child who is divided over jazz band and I would be I'd- grow up to be either my brother by the piano. My sister would be dancing on arabella bobby penetration, and I Just terrible I'm! You know, I wasn't terrible. I was. I was in credibly difficult to listen to because it just didn't know was inevitable. There was no flowing. There was the smoothness. There was a sly or feel no answer I guess for me the trombone became a manifestation of metaphor. If you like, for the differences

between us all, regardless of gender, race or age. In the same house same genetic inheritance, you get these three really different, kids, one of them has given the tools these given that chum bone and somehow for the clash of chromosomes or whatever he can make sense of it in the way that he'd needs to make sense of it, and so it became for me that sort of anger point, four, how different we are and that that's good. I don't have to be a great jumbo earnest. I put in no disrespect america by put probably ten thousand hours of really good seven years. of good hard work and was really average. I mean maybe he's a really hard work. I was in a small school. I was still the third chair of the trombone players, because, no matter how hard I practice now, I just would go from really It's too average. You know that that was the extensive, my improvement,

which is why, when we came to do a film about strength, said about uniqueness, we chose to focus on it on a channel. Player, which is why I became chairman. I wanted all ties back to like the origin story. It's the personal opinion that seeds everything in life. Exactly it's interesting. You brought up malcolm ten thousand hour rule we actually couple of years ago. I guess now had Anders ericsson and hm who did the original research and became like the source of the now actually he's like it was never really the ten thousand hour rule. Yes, that was the really streamlined popularization of that, but it that's not really the reality of the situation. But but it is interesting, regardless of whatever it takes, you that we do have a certain sort of like innate organic preferences, drivers that

seemed to emerge at the earliest of aids that really differentiate us. You know that who knows where it comes from or why it's there, but it's there and I feel like sometimes we don't like to acknowledge that, or sometimes society says you know, you shouldn't acknowledge that, to a certain extent, because there we're all sort of like similarly equipped and similarly able and similar. We should all be able to exceed and excel at the same neo basket of things on the same level. But it's just not reality know, and it's it's not it's not reality. My sister was, I said, a ballet dancer, professional bout, an answer royal ballet school ballet company and yet probably spent twenty five thousand I was trying to learn to do pirouettes and eat to be a soloist in the robot accompany you've got to be able to do three to the left and three to the right perfectly, because there's too much in the classical ballet repertoire that the raw ballet does. That requires that, while she can do that, I am and beautifully talent

dancer extraordinarily good. Many of the moves and maneuvers you have to make, but couldn't it can do the parrot? What's so at some point you that there is difference difference that there was a person right next door to her similarly built solely driven, who could and you'd so right there. You see difference in me even at the highest levels of of homogeneity. Supposedly there's heterogeneity this difference and my sister then has to deal with that- not a bad way but has to go. But what is my contribution is adopted as it turns out. She's asleep Lyrical dancer and as a wonderful bad company for soloists called the netherlands does theatre where a particular kind of cargo offer yuri calamity made dances just for long lyrical dances like my sister, so so it's not

Those saying that we are unique limits us. It just defines the nature of the contribution that we're going to make, and so he you know you have a child. I have kids, you, you see how they nat, how they naturally interact with the world and you look at them when they're, two or three is old and you go. I didn't make that I mean I made it genetically, but I do when my m toward us, was leaning over how ones I am in her necklace sort of fell down or dangled down, and my daughter was, I think, two years old and looked up and said, you'd. Imagine all the things she possibly could have said. She looks up into went that's a lovely necklace mummy and in saying that you knew immediately, that might daughter didn't necessarily think that was a lovely necklace or not, but she knew even to that. You sewed goodwill

she knew how to sober, still knows how to so good. Well, not that she's been minimal. But she knows that you invest in other people. You see a thing, you say something nice about it or you do something nice and that that works for her. When I did and what do I didn't make us say that amount and make us it, and my son, of course totally front in the way that he naturally reacts. We have uniqueness, is effective of life and the fact that we say marcus you can't become like your brother, isn't an absence of a growth mindset. We can all grow. The question is: can you grow to become indifferent, different human and the answer unequivocally both biologically but also psychologically, and probably even spiritually, the ounces? You can't. You are a beautifully unique human and the abuse of the unique such a contribution to make, and we hope that in life you discover what those are, but it's gonna be around

day that you actually just totally have a personality, transformation and turn into someone else, and that's that's not a fixed mindset. That's just helping someone to own that trajectory and the nature of their own growth. Yes, I assume, with that. Also, I feel like. Actually, I feel like it's. It's become a very western mindset to focus on transformation like capital t transformation like to become someone else, but when you go much further back in time. When you look at a lot of thousands of years old, eastern philosophy in eastern tradition, and you look at the language. No, if you look at the young, the sanskrit word in Japan. Lucky he you know which, which translates roughly two liberated being it's not it's a raid intensely, not transformed being its liberated being in virtually every path. With a lineage that long with practices that have existed for thousands of years have led to better living. The word is more related deliberation and

information and it's really long that idea. It's not about becoming someone else. It's about revealing the essence- you are and then allowing them to fully manifest in the world and in whatever way, can what an that's. Why did the greek word that's become, I think trivialized in the last few years, but the greek like you'd, mona diamond, The idea that we have a souls code if you like, and that we have a unique spirit diamond and that you means oversee the the good expression of that diamond, there's a lovely deep truth. Then the good living comes from the best purist, most beautiful and contribute of expression of your time, man that doesn't mean the transforming europe into your brother's. Just because you wish you could compose like he could. It means a mock, as you probably got one you ve got a spare, you got a set of uniqueness,

is the come together in a in a dime on how can you you could use them poorly? You could resent them. You could use them on intelligently, but if you want good then you'll figure out ways in which you will contribute those for the benefit of us all for the benefit of those around you. That's that's. Probably the greek version of the asset, the sacrament hands like eat- traitor, Well it into those cultures that have existed for so long and endured in some way shape or form, and I think it all it keeps coming back to that those same core set of ideas. You know, I wonder, sometimes why we have drifted like what what have been the external pressures of data. Sir pushed us in different directions from that, and I am curious what your thoughts are on the that I've seen so much what it seems to be societal and familial pressure to sort of validate. You like this,

ok path for you and leave, whereas this thing over here to left, even though it may be a much tour expression of who you are it's kind of not like, we don't see the path for you to be safe and secure a word. I completely invalidate you know even the essential needs, imprinted that comes from there are a number of different things that push that What we do know is certainly we have just done. I now run this research institute it at the atp research institutes. I've got this opportunity to do all this great, studying of particular people and performance at work, and we just finish this global study of engagement and when dive into the details of exactly how we measured debts but fifteen point. Eight percent of people are fully engaged at work in the world and you'll just have to trust me today, reliable methodology applied to that which means the eighty five percent of us. It just come into work. Eighty five percent of us, I just said

our time and talent, getting money to go, buy things that we love and that means works just transactional for us. Certainly one of the reasons why we are pushed in in pathways. That's an and career paths, ways the brilliant right for us is because the world of work in which we live anyway is impatient. With our uniqueness. We builds most companies today, a metaphors extending from the assembly line this that more sophisticated versions of it, but the sequences and their processes, and nowadays we took about lean processes, but within the context of that, uniqueness is a bug. Human uniqueness is a bug and we and all leaders to be the same. He won or salespeople to be the same. We want all engineers because it's easier because you are one cog in a in a big machine, so the uniqueness of humans, which we are parents, or as friends or as lovers, find beautiful where we spent forty percent of our time

annoying we with the best of intentions. We will grind down your uniqueness because, its frankly a little bit a little bit sent and elizabeth annoying that you're, not ten salespeople. Her all motivated by the same cook coin operated extrinsic motivations, the idea that you might ten people in the same job, with different motivations of stars is just annoying the other part of courses we project. So when I give you advice on what you should do with your life or even advice on what you should do in that next encounter you're going to bump into later on this afternoon, I'm just it's just easier for me, because it's really all I've got. I've just got my own experience, and my own natural loves notes, and we can't help it will also a go at cant wait. We will go to such egos, which we don't necessarily feel, but that the default is to the lay me on you, sir. If you actually start listening to this now conversations when you

listen to their mother battle of eyes. I say: well, I gotta sleep so well. Ass night, you you're I did what I didn't sleep well. Well, I just missed What we know our I miss my plane to exert its is the battle of of eyes and it comforting for Two overlay ourselves anti you but of course, I'm only underlie that, with with the golden rule that you should treat people as you would like to be treated, which of course presupposes that everybody likes to be treated the same way that you would which, when you feel all begins to sound super self involved, but certainly that projection coupled with one last thing, which is a desire to fix things. We are free the things that are broken and we look at other people and we realise just how imperfect they are and we can help us as we want to fix them. You put those three things together: patients with individuality and her instinct to project and then in a desire to remediate employment. It's hard to let people just

These three. Do you feel that those three things are influenced in any meaningful way by things I culture, gender, any others, identifier we haven't should also they don't know we haven't. Seen any difference in a natural instinct to fix weaknesses versus build on strength by june as soon are women and more remedial than men, or vice versa. It's not as though different people in different cultures have a different desire around this either. One of the analyses we just done with these nineteen countries be studied is look at what is the strongest driver? of full engagement at work, and it remains in every country. The same issue, the same question, which is the work I have a chance to use my strength every day, whether you workin the united arab emirates or whether you work in edinburgh. The work in Eden. Prairie. You want to feel as though you

seen for what is special invaluable about you. That is a human condition. And desire and yearning wherever we were born, the only thing we do see is there is some difference in june in age so oh the most remedial generation- is the youngest the. east remedial generation is the greatest generation. Tell me what you mean by remedial and which do you think will help you be the most successful building your strengths, of fixing your weaknesses and the generation that is most predisposed to fix their weaknesses is john. Why just there and then it gradually that scales gradually tipp over the course of your life span and one could argue all sorts of reasons for why that is. But it's probably because over time you start to realize,

as a human that you are, you are you are, and so it's about over the pop I syndrome I am who I am. I gonna keep being at my against the same all ten years down the rather than twenty years riot event you just like I, so let me make peace with a certain amount of right. You know it's let that broadway play. I love you you're, perfect change at some point. We view as an individual. You think I love me. I'm perfect! Now change wait, a minute that no, I love me. I'm perfect now contribute that's kind of where you, as probably what maturity is, is coming to terms not with your limitations but coming to terms with your uniqueness and both the possible isn't the uniqueness that that entails, and it seems like that would also overlay with a sort of the the the classic curve that you see above fulfillment slash happiness, which you would think, while you're you're at your happiest and most fulfilled when you're younger. But it turns out that you know like with every increasing decade. It's actually your fifties, sixties

the seventies were those things start to elevate? And I wonder if there's this overlay, because there's a certain level of acceptance of ce near like I ok, so I don't need to spend so much of my waking hours just trying to fix what's wrong, because maybe it's not what's wrong. It's just not the central thing that allows me to flourish in the world and let me make peace with that deepen into these other things. Yes, they're, the one of the things. that's. We wrote about in this latest book. Nine lies about work was lie. Number eight is the work life balance met in a work, life balance matters most, and we addressed this because we do seem to be in love with balance as balance here.

health and the four humans in the body we need to have them. Imbalance will put leeches on you so that we can get your blood back in balance with your bile and then that becomes the earth fire water, air and, as the philosophical manifestation of that and nature, is imbalanced and so balances. We we have it as a metaphor for health and and yet of course, if you have found balance, if you're one morning at nine fifteen, you had the mortgage pay, and the kids were happy and use its boughs upon was happy workers into going well and if the grandparents web, if you ever go to that point precarious point, though it is what would be running through your mind. Is nobody move now? Everybody stop. Stop! Stop us up a guy. I got it right down the data. The time I'm perfectly balanced, balances stasis balances stationary. What we now, of course, is that

Look up at the stars, they're, not hanging there imbalance we know. Actually, everything is in process. Everything is movement that that health is movement through in such a way that you get the nutrients that you need to be able to keep moving through. Everything is ok process, so you think, is a plan that to us as an in as individuals we move through life and all of us, because we are different. All of us draw strength from different context. Different situations Maybe there are some things that none of us like, like none of us like to be humiliated. None of us like to feel shame, but moving on through that, you find way more differences in terms of how we draw strength from life than one would possibly expect. Some of us love confrontation. Some of us, I mean other than death. Public speaking is the greatest fear for many of us, and yet there are clearly others of us who yearn for that kind of audience, and a million other different examples of that, as we think of how you have a good life, one of the things that

It is a beautiful thing that you probably do a crew with age is an awareness that life is offering you. I don't want the metaphor is psychological oxygen of different kinds over the course of your life, and you start to realise that if you would but stop trying to be something that you're not life is actually offering you up. People contacts at you since moments that, for no good reason, and other than who you are. They seem to invigorate you and perhaps at twenty one, your less attuned to that reality and that over it I'm. You realize that life is abundant in a very specific way for you, if you would but

have the ears to hear it and the eyes to see it and the hot feel it. Perhaps that's why at fifty sixty seventy star going, no life will provide life will provide or not, I guess, the some have dear old still haven't figured out. The life is bountiful. If you can get, just listen, I know there are make so much sense, and I also wonder if our metrics than metrics, by which we measure a good life, evolve well, whereas one were earlier life, you know it all How about money, power, presty, it's about a king. Nation and accomplishment and achievement, and we look at you know that the boxes that we check off are fairly well defined in granular and he like bees, the thing where I know when the last boss is checked. I will have cook made it, and then we get there. You know, and we don't feel the way we thought we were going: feel in somebody ass. Well, how much more do in eating desert always just a little bit more

it's the one more room syndrome, yoke like where nuclear everybody does My apartment, I just needs one motorist, have one room right and because and you get the one more room and you're like wow doesn't one, morally, the a big closet in ITALY as a slightly larger bathroom over their yeah. It's I mean I'm fifty three now so you ve started. Back, and you realize that you were striving really hard to click off some those boxes, but the you it was grey slick who said no matter how comfortable your bed is sooner. lady you have to get out of it, which I have always loved. The as a metaphor for a common life. Doesn't work many rooms. Now your house has, sooner or later you gotta, get up move through that day and feel either depleted at the or energized. At the end of the day, you gonna have to do that. That's what we're moving through life is so

the sooner you can realise that doesn't matter how many rooms that house of yours has it, but just as one more room, you still got to move through that room with joy or with depletion with they or with depression, many you're the one, that's drawing strength from life or not, and there's no box to take off their interesting, as I guess I'm blacking, on the name of Egypt, the japanese community, wherever on seems to live at open our right, yes, and as it does it, if, as even uptown in here I'm anyway, I heard the blues ounds yet actually at the blue zones and it's a charming and powerful discovery to realise that the reason so many of these people live so long. Isn't that wealth isn't their diet? It's that they continue to do their thing. They continued a work. They don't retire.

They found some things in life that, for whatever reason, make them feel contributed, make them feel useful invaluable without suffering they seem to enjoy, and they. keep doing just doing them forever forever, and then they live long and maybe diet may have apart, it, is well and chance may have a part to it as well, but is clearly something that human beings feel involved, rated by when they have a chance to express contribute themselves and that that enables you to feel life lived and If lived longer yeah I mean it said that, like the japanese word aikikai, you know translates roughly to the reason to jump out of bed in the morning. It's like those people have that and they that and they don't it stays with them for years and years and years and they're also in community, which is yucky, such a huge thing about you got there

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Somebody also do right about, in my lies, work life balance and and are how it's a misnomer and also how it were very process oriented one of the things that really has always rubbed me. The wrong way about that phrase is theirs. It there's a presupposition about it, which is that those two things are in opposition, absolutely its. We put. We create these categories, we if we have a lot of areas where we have category of category era in this, his work and life are the two categories and in work the presupposition is that work is tough and challenging, and difficult and life is joyous and uplifting, and that work you lose yourself in what we find yourself I feel you drag down by work, but your uplifted by life, and so the challenge

Who is this that you have to balance work and life so that you can put the scales where they need to be in not get dragged down too much, but of course, that those are all categories right because work as part of life? Actually so communities part of life families, part of life spirituality, is part of life, it lots of bits of life. Work is a pretty big chunk of life. Okay. Well, now that we got that sorted out, work, life balance vanishes and I don't mean just in terms of the normal tree eyes. You have make sure the our emails don't hit his drink child school play or something we all do it. We know that we ve got. I challenge in terms of making sure that we are present him. Whenever moments we happen to ban, but the categories around we shouldn't think about work and life we think about love and loath that those a good categories the world is set up we for whatever reason each one of us can draw strength or love certain things, and some of those things might be us as a dad us as a mom, as as a friend us, as a volunteer, also

worker tons of situations, people context moments that we encounter in each of those facets of our life and the real challenge isn't to find work I've balance is to find love, loathe imbalance. If we other category, we start going, can you deliberately imbalance your life toward more of those moments that you love, because, if you do, love is a precursor to contribution. So if you can deliberately balance your life toward those things moment. Situations that you love and away from those you load, not a hundred percent, but can you because no one put it for you by the way. Can you deliberately take responsibility for drawing strength from moments that you love, which, by the way is gonna, be different for everybody? Then you ve

It had a life that that nourishes you not for self aggrandize meant not for a self involvement, but for contribution boy, that's not easy. It's hard, but it's the right hot thing. Work. Life balance is the wrong hard thing. We gay category era. We then and that with miss prescription, love load imbalance is a really interesting concept to pursue when you eleven, as well as when you're like imagine. If we started to help us, don't students now think about their own experience as a totally unique experience and their experience of moving through the As of life is a totally unique one and like what's my responsive, in that. Well, responsibility is to empower your world so that you are drawing strength from it and the eleven euro goes ha ike, icon anew, I kind of know what you mean by that it's like you, you can ident. You can measure that yeah, regardless of how old you are there was a a champ,

a teacher told me what what he'd seen the first epoch, we'd, have chamber that I wanted, which is this. You know I did this film series fifteen minute episodes. I did it for business people. He had a bunch of eleven year olds in a school in vancouver island, so just off and cuba, an equal them? Is there listen? I've had the students were words, the first episode, the fifteen million, and can we use it to build a class? I got it unlike up, there wasn't for the students, but ok yeah. I hung up, I forgot about it. A year later goes, could you come up and see what we ve done, an unlikely who the hell are you again and there needs to be discussed, but he he's got all these students on vancouver, island and there's a bunch of first night nation kids, particularly who were truancy rates, a high graduation rates, hello, risky, teen, behavior and drugs.

Alcohol was on the rise and they were, they were trying to get the kisses and school, and the kids would say. Well, I I don't see a future for me. I don't. The school is an instrument for what and and so we've used yours the german player, wanted video as a way to get him to stay in school, and I'm like wait for what did he say and he said come up, so I flew up to vancouver, took a little boat plane to vancouver island. I went to the school his middle school, it's in a big big, big school, but in the depressed mining community. At that time- and I went in and they've created this entire year program with no budget- they just said to the kids and this class for a year will be about finding your voice and we're going to give you a cardboard box at the beginning of the year, just cabo box and it'll be your voice box to your voice box. Everyone's got a voice box and his a couple of bucks and, throughout the course of the year, start off as a brown.

Couple bucks, but during the course of the year you'll fill it you'll fill it with moments. Experiences situations, contexts, people whatever those things that you love and from that by the end of the year, you'll have a a voice that is rich and has tone. and precision to it's yours and we don't know what you're gonna do with it. But the point of school will be so that you can not have to ditch your voice for someone else's and try on this risky team baby. You can do own your own voice and I'm like. While I walk into the room and this brown cub, isn't the bottom and then, as you go up the side of the wall, they're increasingly colourful felled boxes of these kids, and I said what was the first thing you did with them, and he said. Oh, we just gave him these little flip cams, and we said to his question that you know the answer to everyone has to go back,

over will last two days or you have to do- is to a two minute, video clip of answering the question. When was the last time a day flew by? When was the last time it if flew buy, and he said, of course, every levin young that they know the answer to that question and what supercool is you had? Twenty five kids in their class, of course, in the first class, every about a different tumor video, but your point at eleven unit at eleven there you know, that your life speaks to you in a language you understand, and the problem with school mostly, is that no one's inch, no one's interested. What is similar to like what you described as the factory model, I mean the schools were meant to fit into that. So it's all about order and training for whatever that next environments going to be so, of course, we wouldn't be teaching the things like what you just experience.

And because its counter to the model of economic prosperity, and that has been built for generations now? Although the funny thing is it is it? I can't be financially capitalist, any sensible to have eighty five percent of people not engaged to work every day disaster as a main priority assumption for so long. Yes and its intriguing that we we ve created a world in which what must be baked alienation in, because everyone's little think about healthcare, a place where you too thought because- partly we need to know why we work and if you know the purpose of our work, where more engage, will I couldn't be up a profession way. The pups of your work is more available to you to see as patients get better. Net nurses and doctors should be the most engaged because they're so close to their purpose. And yet we know, seventy three percent of doctors would not advocated their children to be doc

as we know we're going to have a twenty five thousand doctor shortage in the: u s in the next five years. We know that the only profession more disengaged than doctors is nurses, with levels of ptsd higher than returning veterans from Afghanistan and iraq, We and the only person you wouldn't want to be more than a doctor on earth, is the patient on the receiving end of a super disengaged out turn us. We ve created situations in hospitals, where you have a nurse supervisor, then seventy two nurses reporting to the nurse supervisor and we wonder I might make financial sense- that sort of spanish control, but you imagine a nurse at one of the seventy two working in going. I don't think anyone season I don't think anyone as a even here, let alone what I love or loath arm into or more struggling with. Seen and we have created that as though it makes good financial sense but

actually, what you want from the nurse is you want innovation, resilience, creativity, generosity, all those wonderful things. We could be helping our eleven year olds know about how to take responsibility for so that way become a nurse at twenty three twenty four. We know quite a lot about how to help you feel those things it would make tremendous financial sense to teach that kind of life living early. And yet we don't and then we wonder why we have high levels of ptsd in nurses than veterans. We we ve got something. We ve got something wrong in the the thing that I know it's a silly were to use in the context of work, but we ve got love wrong. We, we have see oh say we want people to create, to be creative and resilient and powerful and open, and did they describe all these adjectives and then imagine you can put them on a wall in a break remo

employee manual in and get them, but those adjectives. Those descriptions are things that you only Feel a few are when you are either in love with a person or in love with an activity or situation. Love is a thing. We ve got a really examined that word. If we want I'm talking purely pragmatically here, if we want really productive, creative, innovative resilient, employ ease, we can't use cognitive you from it seems like discretionary effort and we we gotta go. Ok, that's how we gonna get employs two fine love in our work

just do what you love cause. That's too bland. I mean how can you find like those students in the classroom? How can we help people to find their voice find love in what they do, because then no love can labour technique in practice turns into that turns into contribution, which of course, is where our employers want. We disconnected think that shouldn't be disconnected. There could not agree more and I ate its. I love. I love that these ideas that a teacher remote from you just touched your work and saw its potential and literally ran with it to create their own cyrillic mood of teaching like monumental ideas on a level where this could become a part of vague kids experience and then vocabulary and then realm of possibility.

See at a young age where then all the choices that they make after that aren't corrective and stifling. You know it's a it's there, it's building upon a deeper realization and it's not fake. It's not like you're, not putting it on someone as a. palliative that you're saying to a real dilemma: one year old, no, no! No! No! No seriously! When was the last time a day flew by as not immaterial. It's super material and by the way, it's available to you and it'll be available to you when you're sixteen it'll be available to Why will in we send night nine lies? Do you want to have a really engage life at work? Spend a we can live with. The job

We can love with your role right now, and you may discover that you're in the wrong job, but most of us won't. We will discover that there's an awful lot of activities in the course of a week that we ain't into like love. What you do this, this teacher had that truancy rates went down. Their graduation rates went up so much that the supervisor of the entire district people of british columbia said take that class and now they've had ten thousand kids go through It's amazing, no budget. Also the budget was a cardboard box there and you go. Ah, this is so eminently doable and it's not in any way dismissive of the eleven year old child right and making them, I dunno feel better that they- I don't know that they too have a voice. It's now, it's really serious meaty gritty, hard work. You have an excessive experience

in the course of your week at school. Your emotional reaction to those is different than illnesses, or your emotional reaction. To those tells you something about you. We are going to help you have, as you said, about a vocabulary of an ocular the rituals. Maybe to help you learn how you can use life to inform the voice that you have enough for the contribution you can make. Ok, that's cool and and if we could as employers what I love the idea was employers would fund that like crazy, if they knew that, therefore they would be getting graduates, a twenty one. Twenty two, who had been schooled not being self involved but in being aware of how to draw strength from life, so that contribution could be made not to get to kind of raw rory about it. But if that isn't what school should before

then we need to really rigged re examine what we ve got school designed for, because at the moment, is not entirely clear to me. What problem solving a lot of people are really starting to look at in our seem progressive education early really dive into. How do we do this currently and what is the. Why are we actually doing, what we're doing and where's it leading to like? What's the outcome that we want the boon for years, the things had been measured had been very specific, but you know when you track that out, that does not necessarily lead to a life, will live to organizations or companies or entities out there in the world who are doing anywhere near what the truly capable of doing on the level impact and contribution you know ends

and we're so in line with this in so many ways like the idea of early education, especially focusing around a process of self discovery of self means of self revelation, I feel like sometimes we feel like that's too trippy. It's too soft, it's too self involved, but in fact that is that beat of of an improved society on almost every level. Well, as we're seeing with the healthcare provision technique, minus love equals burn out it. If you have, if you take technique in whatever form you're looking at whether its technique of being an emergency room nurse weathers the technique of being a software engineer. Whatever the technique is, if you then don't help the person which the activities inside of that technique that they draw strength from and the male clinics research his soup. interesting on this? They looked at her

In the eye of hours, doctors said they were doing things at work that they loved and they just counted the hours and counted the number of activities that they were saying that they loved. If you get below twenty percent of your job, doing what you love, nineteen eighteen, seventeen each point reduction has a commensurate linear one point: increase in burnout risk. It's like a it's like a perfect see saw but found a few get above twenty percent twenty five. Thirty percent- you don't see a commensurate decreasing but which for them- and obviously we need to research this more. seems as though a little love can go. A long way doesn't need to be, and the analogy we used in the in the book was your fabric of your life is made up of many threads,

some of them black, some of them white, some of them gray whatever. But there are red threads. Some of these threads have read. Some of these activities are made of a different material for you. They are because you happen to be a person who loves stress, your red thread. Is you love the stress of trying to keep somebody alive on the operating table because another person loves and Do you happen to love when they come around? I am using healthcare examples here, but it's not as though every person in the same job has the same read threads, but every one of us has read threads and the challenge for us isn't to the mayor clinic research. It isn't to build an entirely red quilt. It's to weave these red threads intelligent into the fabric of our lives, and when we do that, we I was stronger this material. This love for activities that we love material is strengthening for us and therefore we do contribute more and we can contribute longer. It's

However, you wanted a slice it where they were slicing, spiritually or the aspire slicing pragmatically. It simply makes tons of for a society to take each person's red threads really seriously really early and to realise that as parents or as teachers, whatever you can't We ve, you can't tell someone what their red threats are right. You can, but you can foster it. You can nourisher yeah or you can snuff it. Oh yes can make it a relevant air and say to a child of the fourteen fifteen. We don't we don't care. What use are not going to tell you what you should be and we. Down that road lies many many things that were saying lately the super destructive for a child. When did life start getting so complicated, buying a home, complicated home finances, certainly not a walk in the park raising kids, she hath. It's a lot then

there's insurance. What, if my policy doesn't cover this or what? If I have to make a claim in the middle of the night, good news state farm. Is there for your what ifs you can reach them? Twenty four seven file a claim on the state farm mobile app or simply call your agent to ask anything. So even if life gets, Insurance doesn't have to be like a good neighbour, state farmers, there collar gotta state farmed outcome for a quote today. I love the idea. The idea of the red thread also take me back to what I think is its original story to which is theseus in a minute or where it's like it. That came out of theseus

meeting to find a way back out of the labyrinth. After, like this horrible challenge, like big giant and like lick, lasers, red thread back and by doing that is able to trace their way back to a place of homecoming of power of sense of I've, I've done what I came to do. Yes, I mean I, she hadn't thought of them miniature boots. I was thinking of red threads. as actual threads. You weave, but of course, you're right. You find your way. You find your way back when stories read about in the book is about ten. Second, poland in the ballet dancers, who was the prodi the best ballet dancers who in the last hundred years may about an answer for the robot accompany, and he was

rain for fifteen years with the robot accompanying then got to be a male soloists, and after two years of that quit cause, he was being told to dance the classical repertoire according to the possible royal ballet way, and for whatever is, that dragged him down and the only way he found himself to defining his way back to his own life was to find which we talk about which a dive into here but find there. red thread of his and then see where it see where it lead. We have examples, even lately here with other nineveh, college sheeting scan on stuff, where we have kids who unseen and we have to help kids find their way and I'm connected to it through ways there so wish. I wasn't, but helping kids too far

in their way back to their strength through the at their own red threads. We cannot tell people what their drawn too. We have to let them whether its weaving- thread of following to use your following your way out of. If you find yourself lost in your career in your life, the way back is, spend a weakened love, no matter how tough your life is written. I spent a week in love with your life, find those particular activities that you know Thirdly, you know I ones, invigorate you and then you just with all trust than intention. You follow where they lead

wherever it will be, it might be renewed narrative, it might not be, but it will be restored as it'll fail you. Yes, you may not fill your bank account, but a fully with the stuff that you need to be able to get up the next day and do it again yeah, it's so important. I feel like that's such an important point that you're making also this that let last part especially which has that we really do feel. I think that there's like that thing has to also be the thing that becomes the central source of income for us and- and I agree with you- I do believe that very often And we can take whatever gig, where at her job or industry, whatever it is now and we can kind of deconstructed a little bit. We can do your love and loathe exercise and realize that there are actually seeds of these things that exist. That may be

we're only twenty per cent now. But if we're intentional about it, we can grow that eighty per cent and love a lot more, but also like know that there are times where there are things that are really high on the love list. That either will never generate a livable income for us, and maybe they shouldn't also like. Maybe it's actually ok, and maybe it's actually a better thing to can keep those on the side and do them pure We without any attachment or expectation beyond just our ability to to do them to engage with them and to feel the way we feel when we're doing them. Yes, it raises the what are you? How do you define income there? I mean this financial income, but there's other sources of income and spiritual or psychological income is not to be sniff that you want to you're so found me. We say you shouldn't bring your work, you up your home problems to work, and it's always struck me as I guess. That's by farmers need far more more the other way around

people brain alienated, empty cells, from work back home to their kids, to their spouse or partner to that community. We have lots of sources of income and psychological income is huge, lee valuable for us as human beings? It's interesting part of this study we ve just done. We asked which has look at what works status, his most engaging whether there was a relationship between full time, part time, gig non gay one part time, two jobs, free parts, I one and we sort of slice that everywhere you could think of, and it the most engaging work status and it's not the most powerful billina of engagement, but if you were to say which work status is the most engaging it's one full time, job and one part time jobs for different company, and it seems as though that may well be the best of both worlds.

if you will the stability of one full time, job which know ideally, would give you everything you need, but the stability of that and then a side, hustle or side souls plural, where there may be some income that we ask the people with the hustles. What's? U love most about them? They said and this is not a surprise you at all to reasons to reasons came to the top. This is in every country, greater responsibility for my own time and effort, I'm so more agency and then second a great opportunity. To do more. But I love and money wasn't money was not not there, but it was they weigh down. I took the side hustle cause ass. I some place where I can control what I do and then some place where I can actually do things that I love and what people do that when they do so hustle like that they are more gauged now. This doesn't mean that eh did have aside ass? They don't mean that I do. I just mean it's interesting. You slice the data, so

raise the sunday you end up with ha yeah best of both worlds is a sound and you ve got a funny. There is actually a car later. If ever the book daily rituals, I haven't ass, you would love this really gotta check it out. I'm actually there's a new version of it out. So the author tracked, the m did a twenty four hour. Window of the like? What would a person do in the lives of a whole bunch of some of the world's leading like writers, creator or some artists and prevent people like this, and they met the patterns yeah like they said, okay across as wide cross section of people and what was fascinating to me. I mean there are a lot of really interesting data points from that, but one of the things that stood up completely validates what you're saying, which is:

that many of the people who we know as the greatest writers, the greatest artists, the greatest innovators or inventors actually like worked from nine to five at the post office or as a c p a or did something like this and that bought them the peace of mind, the security like b, I'm going to take care of my family thing, and it was okay, it wasn't terrible, but it wasn't fantastic, which is okay, but it it gave them the peace of mind and allow them still you like plenty of cognitive and creative access to go and play ninety five or more seven to nine at night or like one day a week on the regions and in that compressed amount of of time. The work that they were able to create was so free from commercial expectation that

It was astonishing and it mainly became known in the world now for their ninety five love for the work that they were creating on the side and had they not had that main thing they probably would have felt so constrained by like will they sell beer that they never would have given themselves, freedom were Einstein's, put it the best example that is any working the patent office in engine neighbour and then in his spare time. Just I don't know reinventing realities to small things like that, but, yes, it goes back to your term of the difference between information and liberation. Why we be Transforming us has been broken. Stop fixing me, I'm not broken. Instead, can you liberate was inside of me if you ve got a stable, full time job? As you said it, it is a kind of it doesn't deplete you and drain you. It gives you enough of a pie, phone for you to be able to move into. Something else was, as you said, knows, financial expectation at all which freeze use liberates you to discover things in connection

About you and contributions you can make that help you for Oh, your most you. Why was einstein doing that stuff because he could not do it? He was in love with that part of his brain and it wasn't remunerative until it became set which sometimes site hustles can really become you get so amazed we valuable in the fat eve opened seventeen more doors than anyone else has in that space that it becomes a thing that you can live on a few. So she and you also, if your creating in that side thing and that thing like if it remains stream pursuit, was governed by a certain paradigm, a certain set of accepted rules. You like by operating on the side. You can kind of sidestep the limitations of the paradigm and you can be the maverick you don't have to worry about being judged or ostracized from the paradigm or the community, you know whether it's academia or the the linear,

nature of like the the way you're supposed to be in science. It just it frees you it's it's it's so fascinated to know that your most recent research and the data supporting this and a lot of amazing way, it suggests

that we should make and there's been a number of articles of late, saying the gig work is lonely and atomizing and so forth, but actually this data, our data, seems to show that we should make more work more regular work like gig work, in the sense that we should give you. This data also show that people are capable of feeling super connected to their team, even if they're, a gig worker and even if their remote, it team that sense of being connected in that sense of making a contribution, isn't a function of location. It's a function of have that feeling that you that you have so as we as we think about how to make work better for people looking at those data points that show that one full time or part time and then what is it about the part time? Oh it's about the agency and the opportunity to what you love and the freedom that huh. I wonder if we could take some instructive lessons to weave those threads back into more.

traditional work and I know given what you just said actually about not being constrained. I know when I first wrote: first broke all the rules. My first book, I had a full time job and I didn't really have any. No one was telling me to go right that seventeenth book proposal eighteenth but proposal. Ninety, it's just it becomes, as churchill said, is like somebody that you sneak off to see because it so praying ends. I wasn't I'm and I had no idea that it would become a thing it was the incredibly freeing to realise it? It doesn't have to be a thing. It could just be an expression of me hopefully in some useful way. That is it's a lovely state of mind to find yourself in their is there's a bourdain. Would

told the story when he wrote getting up and actual like he was then fulltime, runaways, alan new york and dumb. He never thought the single persuaded worry this, so he just wrote exactly what he wanted to write signal: zero filter. He thought like a handful of people who work in kitchens read this scent and they all kind of knew. This is reality anyway, so he was like there was nothing he was holding back, you know, and that gave him the freedom to just utterly do what he wanted to do express exactly what he wanted to express, and he also knew he had we're all human beings, I think a wired to see or- and that's why you re sergei pie. his thing where he says the dancer, hoo hoo, quit the robotic, twenty one found his way bag and he's a character in his

you know tattooed up the wazoo and is clearly a maverick in his own way? The way that he followed his red thread back to some coherence in his life was going to a friend and saying just choreograph a piece for me. That is that I don't I don't care which ballet companies for not, for I don't care which repertoire it is or it isn't in. I'm going to take coaches, take me to church and I'm going to write a piece of cargo that is manifesting. The purest best, impression of me and I don't really have any expert. I have no idea where this is going to go other than I'm going to put something out in the world that no one could put out in the world and is I like it. You might not it, but we know what is it true Twenty nine million people have seen that, because even love ballet. We look at it and go that is the poorest most authentic expression of that particular weird, wonderful, human

we we lean into? Even if you don't love our former, what we lean entered the authenticity of how many cooks and chefs red the brains, but probably a lot, but how many people who are really interested in that part of the world still read it because intensity in and of itself is a beauty we are so attracted to the purest expression, a minute of another soul. Weird is actually moral, weird, but we, and I was talking to a friend of mine. I work with, and she was like, weird is actually from the old english. You probably know this w Y r d, which is the old english for four spirit: it's the english holding this work for dialogue. Is we in weird and likewise in your weird could be why? Oh, you apposite I agree with you While you are, what's your? What's your weird your we, it is your spirit. It's your essence is your authenticity and we are drawn to.

it. Obviously we want you to manifested healthily ethically morally intelligently, but we are drawing were drawn to the purest authentic expression of another and even if we don't know love the art form, we go ooh, that's a thing leaders to as when the ninth chapter of the book, the lies leadership is a thing, and the truth, of course, is that we follow people who are weird. We follow. People have taken their weird so seriously that we we trust it. even if we don't agree with all their policies of their politician. That say we we still go. You know what that person knows quintessentially who they are. As I follow that person into the forest to the future, I can guarantee that this person knows how they're going to behave, how they are going to show up. Were they going to stand firm in an even though I don't agree with everything they stand for

I can see that they are imperfect, because leadership is first and follow wish it rather is, first and foremost an act of forgiveness. I forgot. That, because your weird is some in. I can see and trust in and does so there's a an attraction to people's we're and at the extreme as attraction to leaders who have combined, There we didn't us with something that matters to us and his lesson as lessons yeah, says so agree with that I mean there is a resonance. There's almost forget gravitational force that comes from that pollution is that it That's people, resources possibility is happening, it is into their orbit and you can't necessarily relic what are they doing like? What are the steps it they ve taken to do that we can replicating train other people do in it. It's not like you say it is not about that too about them. Standing still

oh, utterly, transparently and fully in the essential nature of who they are, that that there's something that radiates from that being that people want to be around yes and it not to get political. But right now you know, prepare president trump is a polarizing sort of figure, but he it's funny to see the articles were. So how can people keep supporting incense lied, nine thousand times, whatever the count his and you go at will. My he makes a smart. We can hold two thoughts in mind at the same time. One is that this particular person is not perfect by any means and two we seem to believe. that this person is deeply in the spirit of himself. He knows exactly who himself is now. We could have debates about whether or not that manifests itself healthily, but that's beside the point, if we just looking leaders. You have to turn around as a leader, and if people are following you, then you are one and and now he can

turn around and he sees people thought now that's a leader now we can then debate policy decisions, but we are attracted to people who stand coherently lovingly firmly, uniquely in their weird and then move it in a direction that matters to us and we wrote deeply about martin luther king in the in the final chapter that because there were so many of the civil rights leaders of that time who wanted the same thing, whether its malcolm X, ralph Abernathy, whether its john F Kennedy, Robert Kennedy, were all of whom had the same sort of go. Monolithic, king had a very specific weird and that we had was was strategic in terms of the grand plan on them are going to do this. He wasn't policy really in terms of dinner. First,

lower than this than this. The thing that wizard zeroed in last chapter was was his genius for crucible making flashpoints you go to sell my? U you beauty the bus boycott you there you go to chicago you that he was always a genius and so courageous at finding those flashpoints which created moments that were killed. and he didn't know what was going to happen next. He just knew that if we did, if we missed that flashpoint, it would be a missed opportunity for people to come together and go. Where do you stand? Where do you stand? Why did he end up in memphis on that? He didn't need to go to memphis and cip heap that it was another. Point and his genius and why we are so many reasons why we are uncertain. by him, but one of them is that he knew exert any was obviously so quiet and noble nonviolent in his approach to creating these moments of extreme heat, in which people had to decide for themselves. Where do I stand

when we think of him when we see this person who who is so sad drawn in that it in his own sense of self. He knew that there was no. He couldn't go wrong. He couldn't not go to Memphis he's going to Memphis it's pouring with rain he's going to go anyway. He's sick he's going to go anyway. Why? Because he creates the furnaces and then he does it again and then he does you gettin in his the is that the right way to lead, as you said, other o, should we all follow those step? No, no. There are other ways to advance that particular cause, and there are other leaders who were advancing it differently. So it's not We can look at martin luther king and go oh. We should all be way is deleted. Then steps. What we see in him was a beautifully powerfully unique dent in the world that he made, We are following it because it was so purely him and it. Of course

where he was moving generally mattered to many of us, but its yes, you're right. It's very hard to take the steps of that man and sort of It was transposed them into our own. If we're not careful, we end up losing the very thing that we gotta have as leaders which is worth intercity added to it so entered into because you I've heard so many people explore this. This idea of modelling, let's take somebody like that, lead to designate them as the could exemplar yea and, let's, let's deconstruct there thought process their brain, their behaviour, their actions there, all the things that we can potentially deconstructing will create a model that is teachable and and what will model that so that then others can line up and stepped into that model, and the assumption is thereby have similar results and I have always been so mightily suspect of that, because that model is wrong. Even if you assume that you could deconstruct all of the things all the data points,

to it. It's a relevant ineffective only for one person and that's the person, your modelling and the chance that you are close enough in all the different ways to that one person so that you could step into than have it even minimal. Effective is slim tender. None ya know it's it's the akin to you look at steve jobs, onstage doing his once every three months product launches and you see a person in a in a black total egg and genes in his essence, when he's dying, you see, a man is fully alive and every time see him you get drawn further closer to the world of apple. You see, TIM cook has just as smart as him differently. Perhaps, but do the same thing. Just look at the pictures. Go online. Look at the pictures and he looks every museum on stage you go, I'm gonna leaned back a little bit more. It's the wrong venue. it's the wrong moment. It's the wrong situation. He looks less of a leader every time. He does it and it's bizarre that no one's told him this, but that everyone knows it don't answer to that.

and make if you want us to follow you. That is always find a different way to do it so that it seems like you, of course, we know this in forming arts. We know that you would never tell at Shirin to sing, like you know, to frank sinatra: our brianna say to sing like halls the argument you know these, seeing as it did you just now has the same way with comedians like you would never say. Well, what's that's what was the model for funny while you. Device was depends if you're looking at Steve Martin, it's pretty crazy, hassan and put an arrow through ahead and strong got a banjo and value knees, but if you're eddie murphy its put on a spandex suit and be used, if you chris right, if you, sir, use cute you, you know, there's no model for funny. The only thing that comedian has in common with and really good comedian. Is it people in the wood is laughing so the question them

comes much less about what was the model for being a comedian and more were. What's your way, do you have won t you getting people to law. The we ve got. I soon army of models in the corporate world. At the moment, everyone is being held up against competency models. These are bad in fact it was one of the reasons why I wanted to write this book right now was because we are about to take a bunch of assumptions and bake them into mass in the form of, algorithms and machine learning, algorithms, inside of human capital management systems. We sounds of esoteric, but it system for anyone working king, whether they know it or not, they live inside of it in capital management system that deals with their pay, their promotion opportunities there, succession planning sort of training or development they should receive whether there are high potential or not, and we are about to bake in

all of our assumptions about human beings into these algorithms that are supposedly spot talent and position. Talent, increasing ongoing intelligence and yet unfortunate so many of the fundamental assumptions about humans and humans at work are deeply flawed and not flawed in some idealistic sense, just flawed in terms of war The real world looks like men and we got it now is now of all times. Is the time to go? What do we want to bake into? If anything? What do you want? again to these algorithmic lee machine learning system. Here I mean we are creating the matrix yahoo and were optimizing for metrics that are not human flourishing, and and and very likely, genuine impact german yeah we're in

interesting moment, which is yeah. I think it's. I love the fact that you're sort of putting a flag in in the sand right now saying. Can we just pause for a moment and reexamine some of the The mental assumptions by which we ate live our lives and be build and structure the organisations which, in theory, we will spend huge amounts of our waking hours. Mom in service of an and just say is this true like when we looked the fundamental assumptions that got us here. Are these things true, because. Well if, when we put, these nine lies together, the first assumption was in know I'm a researcher by background, so I want to start every sentence with while the research says or the data is- and I know you see, there are some parts about life, the on measurable, an ineffable injured and just inspiring for their own

I totally gather, and yet there are clearly some things. We know about human beings, one of the most obvious of which is that we are enduringly unique each one of us is, and that's a beautiful thing to see the uniqueness of a human and all the stuff tat we ve talked about today, is about the expression of that human usefully for the benefit of the particular human and hopefully for the benefit of the people around that human, and so we know that, and yet, if you look at so many of the fundamental assumptions that we are, baking into our world at work, even though the first lie as the people care which company they work for, because we have an assumption that each company has a unique culture and we in fact we tell ceos that they should build a particular kind of culture and watch your company. Culture is probably the top question asked in job interviews.

and then of course, we have. The second lies the best plan winds, because we think everyone should be aligned around a coherent plan. The third lies the best companies cascade goals, because because we ought to align people through coercion through goals being many girls of the sea. Many many girls, many many, many many and suddenly yours arrive in your little fielding your software towards this. Your goals. They just landed upon you, one of these. If you go through all the nine lies there all well intended, but there will actually coercive they are designed to ensure that the uniqueness of a human being is ground down, and we do it because we think that's going to be efficient. But of course, what you're grinding out with all of that, your grinding out, not just of creativity and innovation and inclusion and true to

felicity but you you're, also in the end you're just grinding down resilience, no wonder we are sicker at work than we've ever been it's killing us and it doesn't. That doesn't have to be that way, because human beings have found the apex human technology for making use of the fact that are also different and we found it fifty thousand years ago and we called it. A team teams make homes for individuals It was our way of going wait, a minute, you're different from me and different from her and oh yeah. Maybe together we could accomplish something together, we can do alone, and yet is we send the first chapter? The book you can? We I see the teams we do not build owing to that when we talk about team work as a palliative. On top of this, alienating Jeanne we all live in or have a bit more team, but where she can see where the teams happen, weaver without a fight,

on mental misunderstanding of where the work is. Google doesn't know how many times has who is on them whose leading them, which is the best, and that's no knock on Google, no company do not different than anyone. I know said the same as everyone else. We just don't. We don't know where the workers, which is probably why it's so disengaging, because we haven't been able to address the actual place where work lives. There's a moment right now for us to stop, take a step back whether we want to think about it spiritually or whether we want to think about it in terms of the capitalistic outcomes that we want to drive and those things do not have to be in opposition to one another. We can think about how you marry the needs of a large organization to achieve great things and the needs of an individual to live on authentic, good life. There's a marriage there and that marriage

flows through an appreciation of human uniqueness and the fact that the team is the way in which we take advantage of the fact that each one of us is not the same. That's not easy! It's hard to do that, but it's the right, hard thing and at the moment we're doing the wrong hard things and it's hurting people that makes them a chance. In the end, it comes back to people in the nature of the relationship between us, just like a good place for us to come full circle as well so we're sitting here in this container a good life project. If I offer the phrase to live a good life, what comes out? Oh gosh, I Because my when you say that to live a good life, what's comes to mind, for me, is that I take myself really seriously to live. A good life is to take seriously your natural reactions to the situations in contact, some people that you meet

to take seriously if you recoil from something and consistently recoil, even though everyone's telling you that you shouldn't take seriously where lean in where you find something flows, will you find something even when you're done with it, you're, not depleted you're up somehow take that super seriously and respect the unique patten that that implies and the unique contribution that that implies. Take that syria, because if you don't take that seriously any you, if you don't honour that in you, you won't be able to, Or it in anybody else, a good life starts not to be. off involving a good life starts with you taking seriously the natural reactions that you have to the world that you live within and from that comes both generosity and contribution.

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