How does a kid who grew up on a farm in the midlands who struggled with mental illness on a level that led him to contemplate taking his own life arising star in industry, author and the head of mindfulness and compassion at megaton, company linked in more than how does he and up deeply present at peace? My full and alive with possibility enjoy that is the trajectory of today's guest scotch you for more than two decades now. Scott has been on this quest to We together the modern workplace and ancient wisdom, traditions, blending, a lifelong personal, spiritual practice and passion with practical leader europe and operations- it's been this.

Expression of something akin to a download that he got early in life to change work from the inside out when he first got. He didn't even know what that meant and somehow it has revealed its meaning and its intention at its energy over a period of years, his approach. Has been made, streaming, mindfulness and what he calls operational lies in compassion, which has not always been an easy cell and big business. Scott is also the author of the full body S and one of the powerful voices and teachers behind the inner mba a nine month online immersion for entrepreneurs, executives and employees who believe business is a force for good in the world and want to achieve success while making a difference so excited to share this conversation with you. I'm Jonathan fields- and this is good life project.

I'm excited to have this conversation there as we sit here and have this conversation where this really but interesting window in time and culture and society in you, this position is ahead of mine from this in compassion at length, ten, which I wanted to deconstruct a little bit, but it it's fascinating to me on so many levels, not the least of which is that, if we go way back in time and we sort of like think about you as as a kid a young kid growing up- essentially in farm land. In kansas, it sounds like you are wired profoundly differently and that season of your life. I think so. I think so I came across some spirit. Teachings. I would say that I had a spiritual awakening when I was thirteen I started a contemplate of practice which is, let's just say a little bit different than my peers. At thirteen, you know, surrounded by farmland, and mrs Weiler differently, I thought but the world differently. I I felt

a fish out of water. I felt like a city kid trapped on the farm. I felt like a, but, like I was awake, while everybody else was asleep just just different, I didn't really have words for it, then, and when I was about eighteen, I was trying to figure out what to do with my life. I've been thinking this a lot since I've gotta come full circle, but at eighteen it felt I had this black or white path on the one hand, I was going to become an engineer like my big brother and joy, corporate amerika. But, The movie wall street had just come out. Remember this when Gordon gave garage aid is correct. I move that generation where that desert. He asked I contact you like rally cry for so many re it, so seventeen or eighteen year old brain that's what corporate amerika was like. I was gonna sell, my soul to the man or so my soul, to the devil. You know by joint corporate american plus get math and science, and that was a way to make a living

the other side kind of, though the white path on this t bone intersection was, I wanted, moved to new york and be a singer, Gotta Broadway had been the lead in my high school musical, and it also- like, following my spiritual bliss. And ass it thinking how How do you do both? How can you do both and I couldn't what to choose, and there are a lot of practicalities a lot of stuff and in depletion, Wendy S, gonna, having conversation or a frustration with the thing or the divine or whatever you want to call it an. I got this inner nudge kind of this inner. Knowing in what I now call the full body, yes and I knew to do and it came with this message and the message was well. Maybe you can and work from the inside out like some ten year old kid liquid. What is that even mean, and so I can attack that away

You know I try to be a good person throughout my career and I I wake up whatever thirty something years later in a position where, while I have some small chance of doing that- and the thing is, it turns out it wasn't. I don't think back. I don't think as a black or white path, I think, no matter what path we choose. We end up learning the same lessons just in a totally different context, so and there's a lot in their thereas list, deconstruct a little bit. No and one of the things he shared is added. Something happened at thirteen taught me about life before thirteen, and then I want to dive into what actually happened sure. So a group of which is the family farm, that my great grandfather homestead it in the eighteen eighties, north central, kansas, right on the board of nebraska and its poor rural, like gets an hour from the movie theater, our from fast food, and I loved it out. You know, was roaming with my black lab on the farms do whatever I wanted to as a kid you know as a ten year old or whatever

his pieces idyllic. We went to this country church, which was filled with your thirty five or forty people that were it's about that. A couple generations after the place had been homestead and by these kind of hardy pioneers, and I always This connection, with the divine right for me, is being on the land or seeing the way the light filtered through the trees or to speaking out with the animals either. The cycles of growth. and I loved her little country church, but I didn't really resonate the way we are talking about. The divine distant really resonate with me, and so I started in all these questions of my parents- after that. I didn't particularly like the answers to and made it pretty didn't, probably particularly like the questions, but life was good Let us also solitary and a little bit isolating my attention to hear you describe it that way, because I know also you're right about that season of life. With a different lens. He now

the when you write a bad at some of what comes out as also a sense of being wound extraordinarily tightly a sense of being hyper focused on achievement and struggling mental health? Yes, sir. as a teenager look. I'm the youngest of five- and I agree wired real, really wired a programme to compete. and I'm good at lots of things right at some point to all of my brothers and sisters, and each of them are extraordinary in their own way. In a one is several a great music or great at sports are great academics or whatever, and I decided I was gonna- be better at each of them at their specialty. And probably in order to get attention right to get extra validation, especially for my parents, and especially my father,. and what I say is that so extraordinary you know a strategy for motivation, but it's a terrible strategy for happiness, and so

I learned to achieve- I learned to win- I wired, to win, but what I discovered Was it no matter? How much I one, no matter what I achieve, no matter. What finish line I ran across through my hands in the air. There is the thing on the other side. You know those, that's followed me into adulthood and still- trying to achieve the achieve achieved through career, trying to find that magic. When really I've come to learn it from the inside out, but teenager? That was incredibly isolating and I felt very different and felt right isolated and because of that I wondered wow. Am I just here by myself, like I felt so alone and it in my head, suicidal thoughts. I struggled with depression anxiety in that moment and it took quite. To get over that yeah I mean I would imagine, because its hinges think part of what you're describing is this hyper achievement mindset which can be very isolating? at the same time

in the other sense of something bigger sense of spiritual, a sense of the divine which in itself at that age- and I would imagine, especially with sir, that the culture in the community, you grew up in that alone I would imagine, would also have the potential to have another effect, and then you, sir, you pound these two and I wonder if you had this really strong sense of other ring or or strangeness within the community and which you grew up, and I that way. I dont know if anybody else saw me that way. To be honest, I mean as teenagers, I think, we're so in our own heads. We think everybody's looking at us and everybody's paying attention to us, and we are the only ones on stage and the tree, is probably no one else is looking at you at all. Maybe you just another member of the community, but I certainly felt that the other thing. I certainly felt that sense of being dead than everyone else

So what happens if thirteen team at because you you'd described as is now the sort of like in the sand to certainly said sure, so I mean tactically, it came across different spiritual path. In one of my brothers had been touring america make a living as a rock star? He came back farm to run the farm with my dad long story short, as he had found a different spiritual path. and when my sisters and I can finally pinned down ass what's going on with you like. What's what's different and he told us, I just started. Weeping is weak. for like forty five minutes as he described system of beliefs and what it says. It was my truth, and I don't mean to proselytize for anyone else, but it fit me and what the things I always believed and the connection with the divine I always felt I had here- was someone of a path who had written it all down For me, that made me feel not so alone. It made me feel like oh

the thing I've been looking for and it felt like not that I was looking for since I was eleven cents two years ago in my young life, but felt like I've been looking for life. after lifetime after lifetime, after left him something I had had before, but had been separated from like two parts of a magnet there, the kind of snapped together after being separated from a long time, is how it felt, and that began a path of the discovery of self awareness of disk. three of the divine, the divine within me, and and gave me a model that help me make sense of the world which is an amazing thing to happen at that age, especially, but when it happens he now you have this conduit through the vehicle of your brother, surely bringing back to you but ideal, I would imagine also the community that will support you in the pursuit of this and

the ability to deepen into those teaching is isn't next door at that point, you're. No, in fact, we had to hide it right. My parents, We had joined a cold, they wanted anti programmed we very much had two does not talk about it and so Well, you I studied. I did my practice in silence. You know, and the first thing I did when I got to college was defined. The local group- and that was the first time actually get to experience it with with other people that were not my brother, immediate, family. So- and I know that you're the language that through using your intention, laser like catching it without describing. What is this? Yes, yes and rather gnashing you'd like to say like what is it and tell me about it, but a magic I'm curious about a deeper question, which is why why do you feel the need to do not say? This is the thing yeah because current role. My current role as on the head of mindfulness compassion programmes at lincoln ends

I'm trying to my vision for the world is to change work from the inside out in two ways mainstreaming, mindfulness and operationalizing compassion. To do that. I to be seen as very neutral and to see to be seen a secular at work right because the challenges we have with mindfulness in the workplace is a people view it as a spiritual thing outside. I can't do that because its x Y, see religion had some eastern thing and I'm trying to be. As you see very intentional, about being clear on yes, I come this thing from a spiritual perspective, but everything we do at work is completely open to everyone and I'm sure, to find the language that is relevant and open. Builds bridges for everyone. Instead of building walls. it's an interesting approach and is also an interesting imitation and challenge for you. Just not a personal level like it reminds me to a certain extent of years ago, when I was first exposed to the work of John Cabot's, in whom you know eggs.

Stayed within a serve scientifically based rationality, best medical model- that's that was his role and he has this awakening to a lot of eastern philosophy and buddhism and which led him to the path mindfulness and yet, when He said how do I bring this to a population in in his case, to a population that was really ITALY, oriented on the practitioners side and also to patients where he saw this profound benefits of the tools and the practices? But here some kind of new that, if he couch this, as to teach everybody buddhism. It's sort of you know like it's just not going to go down. I especially like twenty twenty five years ago, when he first started to think about bringing this to the world in him in a way that landed as most accessible and inclusive absolutely Look in the world were talking about diversity. Inclusion belonging to protect him, compassion, none of those things need religion. None of those need a defined path. In fact, for me,

five boil down all the paths I know about. They are essentially you know. The divine is love come more love a more loving and become more divine and then mess it up in a week we say: oh, it has to be this teacher this path. You have to believe this, or do this on this day of the week, is like come on. All of it at the root is the same and I'm trying to go That centre point were all of these things came from and use that as a basis to klute in business to include in the workplace to include in the mainstream, sir. I am fascinated by this because, when you look at any so the tools are powerful and the ideas, a powerful and expensive and abundant and inclusive and relevant everybody in any one. And yet whenever you see any of these practices offer outside of the context that you're offering them is relate mainstream world of business and work on an end,

if you now, just like accessibility in the context of life, you do always see them. Bundled was certainly these three parts. There's the teaching, there's the tea and there's the sang out. There's a community there's a congregation barrister an end these everything's new. It's it's been my experience that no matter what no matter what tradition you're, looking at the matter where these these things have evolved, that of that china. Red always exists. And I've wondered in the past like what's the reason for that and I've talked to so many teachers have different traditions and they've they've effectively. All said the same thing, which is that if you pull one away, the house falls and so I'm wondering how he, how you, then translate this to the world that you're living in and how do you recreate that? Norway, where were you understand that the levels and end the structure around it is there in a way People are supported in the work so well,

Each of these paths right- let's, let's differentiate spiritual paths, all is basically some sort of enlightenment. Ray is some sort of vienna Fine, all or never to be achieved, fine, all kind of enlightenment. That's way beyond this kind of human condition. And so I would say in the workplace were operating in a way that moves towards that, but it what we're talking about not gonna, get us to the final place, but it gets us from the human condition a little bit into moving from the house. to the heart but say maybe all the way from the heart to the soul, but moving at least from the head to the heart, and so all other thing since we do at work. I am very conscious of What has worked in spiritual traditions or wisdom traditions, and we try to replicate some of those things, so we have community,

groups, as example, because we know how powerful a song or a sat sanger a bible, study or catechism or temple is for people you want to have community. You want to be able to talk about the things that are really important to you, so we recreate that at work. There's a private practice at this but you do on your own and then there's a set of teachings and those you know those are all available. Now, a teacher. Look, I'm not saying I'm the teacher, but there's lots of us and we're not trained to be or gurus or whatever, and strained to translate things into language. easily approachable, is easy. The usable at work here, we don't get all the way to enlighten and on the things that were talking about our work. But it is really fascinating. How you serve translated, you reinterpreted that quote: goal

practices which, within the practice is that they'll always tell you- that's actually not the goal anyway, that you should let go of the aspiration or the desire to achieve like folks do, but you should use it. The truth is human nature likes to work towards something it the way were wired sitting to see how you certainly re. Imagine this in them inclusive and digestible way, and I want it. I want to deconstruct what their philosophy is and how it actually shows up love it, but should I think, need to fill in a few got chair, also along the way, because you didn't go from college into what you're doing right now, equipment and not at all, well. There was time in a world that you sort of like railed, against and and and then you're like the time where you you really want to try and start your own thing, and- and it was an interesting season for you but through it, took me a long time to come. Get to the centre point what I call the centre point of being operating as my true self, like them with the thing I really I do so I did get the engineer degree I then went into sales

some more of a people person than a technologists, and I did that for four five or six years and I suspect think to myself. Oh my god At the end of the day either my company is going, to wit, make a bunch of money or the competitors can make a bunch of money. But how am I changing the world kind of that? Maybe you can change work from the inside out thing, and so I was looking round in and found another opportunity. I became a manager, I doing technical support for a semiconductor company and I was right. I was way better at being a manager, and a leader than I was at a salesperson did really well and end up being moving up the ranks and being an executive in kind of the customer service or customer facing roles and ended up linked in as the BP of global customer operations, which its complicated it's a lot of the customer facing stuff, that's not sales and ultimate. A team of about a thousand people, twenty five different, groups and of outlets to say a very demanding job, and I

did it linked in about nine years ago about two years. Into it. I realize well places so open in I'd, never tire about my personal practice, my spiritual practice in the workplace and never, but but maybe this is a place where I could bring. You know em attention being part of my practice to work, and I to my friend who led the well- programmes and we will really excited about it, and I went back to my desk and I did apps nothing about it for three months. That was because I was terrified I was thinking. I was remembering back to this time in Kansas, where you know just trying to be out about it, but just wasn't appropriate. I was thinking wow What are people going to think of me like what? What is this going to do for my brand, you know: are they going to become weak? I am a lie here. Can I even do this, and I finally got over all of that and just lead a practice thursday afternoon at four thirty in the head the conference room, which I thought was quite auspicious

and there was one do their enemies that he was justice, terrified ass. I was. I never saw him again and this this there were three and there were five became regular thing and then people knew I did it became catholic them attention exec, so invited to these bigger events. Full would have a summit with three or four hundred finance people, and I would lead meditation session to get it kicked off and things like that. End I raised my hand to volunteer to be our executive sponsor of our mindfulness programme, we don't really have won some ice. From a bunch of other volunteers created it, and I did that three or four years as a volunteer and then for me, The tipping point was our ceo. At the time Jeff wiener gave the benjamin address at wharton. This is through years ago- and he talked about compassion, and in your comments will address, you get fifteen minutes for your best life advisory and he

basically saying. Look if you can be successful in life, be successful at work, you gonna be compassion. In the next two times his on tv. This is all the reporters want to talk about asking. Ok, it's time send for me, because I've been in my ops role for six years. I was ready to do something else. It's time for me to invest my career in this and its own time for linked in to invest, as essentially our ceo has just told you are sick thousand employees. The compassion is the most important thing that can do, but we weren't really talking about what does that even mean, and so, made a pitch to to Jeff into her head of a jar and with their great support, essentially created this role three years ago, with a blank sheet of paper, go figured out. What does it mean? when it comes to relationships. A genuine connection is everything only when we're with people who get us like real. you get us, can we be our true selves, so find

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jane because so often europe kicked around and and this sound great and people are like, let's bring in people to talk about it and then nothing ever gets operational lost. It's a fairly common pattern and its fast aim to see how like this actually become something it and how you step into this place but you said something that I wanted to construct a little bit, which is you used the phrase when you're when you're like okay? So how do I actually take this first step in a public way within this big organization? You, I finally got over it, we need to look into that more because there are a lot of people who have parted themselves that they, deeply believe in they know that their central to who they are they It is part of what feels them as human beings and as end like in working life, and yet They are mildly concerned to utterly terrified about actually bringing those parts of themselves to our, especially when you been in work for a while and sword, like you have a quote me like reputation and

their terrified of what that might due to the way that their policy within organisations or almaty I'm cure to know more about what the internal process was for you in enclosed getting over it there's so much here. We could spend twenty hours talking about this one topic here for me right. I've spent my whole life seeking external validation and carefully cut waiting. Who I was and doping, a strategy of like ability- but this is my life's strategy- is like ability. In other words, this was conscious or unconscious, but look if people like me, then I'm safe, if people me. I won't get bullied if people like me, I won't get ostracised if people like me, I won't feel so alone. by achieve, if I achieve so much higher and more and more than that, We even more right and they'll say good things about me and I'll be safe this is a lot of what a lot of us do. And the truth is. I believe that the power It comes from the inside

when were so strong and our own beliefs were so strong in our own skin were more comfortable in our own skin. As the word we use ass, we get older that we don't. the care, what happens as much to us from the outset. Now, for me, was made easier by the am older at that time. In my life I was in my late forties, our six. slow. My career, I figured if everything really went south and I got fired, we catastrophes thing If everything really went south I've got resources its ill, be easy for me to find another job on this. You know up into my thing, quietly at the next place. So I came out from this place of privilege straight basically I'm an old, rich white dude who had safety very aware of that, so. For me I said thinking about What I really wanted, and what I really wanted was to be me because I think another thing that happens is one of the deepest held desires. We have us. Humans

The need to be seen and heard and acknowledged, I had been seeking that need. To be seen and heard it acknowledged, but it was all a kind of a not a facade, but it was. Carefully cultivated way and in times in my life, where I express vulnerability like true vulnerability usually in a one on one situation, and the other person held me that literally but like they honoured. Part, and they themselves were vulnerable back that's incredibly powerful and other I can really really really be myself in front of you and you hold that base for me, and you say yeah. I, like you this way too. I like you this way, even better than that so empowering night experiences that to know that the I show of my true self happier I'm gonna be, is so counter intuitive to the way we ve been wired, and so I finally get to that point and in a manner

if bears that out the more and more? I did this, the more and more I showed my true colours. The bigger I'm using air quotes the bigger I got to play the more powerful. I became in what I do that the freer I became in what I do I mean that resonates, big way with me. I am also concerned that resonates in a big way with me, because I also and other white middle age privilege did her hunger. And it s a broader question and- and I realize the irony of of the two of us having this conversation but as you like that laid area path, illegal or laid up. Positive question like, curious, whether you have a lens on, but what? If, It's not europe, where you're coming from what it was coming from a place of such inclusive, early or privilege, showing you you're feeling this same axed of of persistent stifling that feeling

just can't be sustained anymore sure I think are given analogy, I think it works the same way because a lot of people now approach and if they want to have a job like my right at their company, they their interest, in these topics and they want to live it at their company and what I mean. we are aware of is that it took lot of circumstances to go perfectly right for me, too This job at lincoln, linked in six As for it was by a ceo who is talking about compassion and talking about meditation. I was six. As for all the things I just talked about, I had got into that place. I was also trained. a very young age to be this person, and a trained in business from a very young age to be. This person is like all of the perfect alchemy Things came together to make this happen, so If someone's had another company, it's probably not as easy for them, but what thing to do- is paint a clear Picture of how it worked for me and to say that

Here is a recipe. A lot of the same recipe is true. It's probably be harder for you at company acts and cause you don't have a seat. You who's talking about, as you probably have to work harder to get that by it. In the same way, it is or for me to say all the things but a summons not coming from place of privilege. This is literally the definition of privilege prison As I worked at a company like linkedin, I still do work at a complaint clicked in and I'm white, I'm well off. I'm a senior in the company, those are literally privileges and for people who don't each of those things it's harder and the recipe still the same is still have to be vulnerable. East is still has to come from the inside out. It still has to true to who you are at the root of it. Will it be harder, probably I mean, if think, weren't it interesting point. inflection right now and in the world of work in our

where the last eighteen months or so a lot of the assumptions that people have made about what work is an isn't about what the environment is an isn't about. What you can. And you had been blown up in it. The bargains that we made that got us to this place, the things we said yes or no to the things we assumed into existence. Some of that still exists, but alive it dozen and even the stuff that exists. I think, of what a lot of people are realising as there's a lot more, this rolling up for re, imagining a renegotiation right now and again, if in were set, into this season of quote emergence where. People are really reexamining they're, saying light elegant the last five ten fifteen twenty years and and say ok, This is what I was willing to say. Yes to this is the bargain that I was like right ok enough with until this point that I was going to just kind of keep on keeping on right, but-

ok with it moving forward yeah exactly This is one of the silver linings one of the gifts of the pandemic is likely, watching this tv show for the last, whatever ten or twenty thirty years, we ve been glued to our couch and were addicted to this tv show. An almost the tv turns off for eighteen months or its different, and we get up and look around and talk to our spouse again and play with our kids outside and then the tv. His back on and take what? Actually it's different now maybe I'm willing to watch a little bit. It's just different, and so it's a b b of getting too is like a pattern interrupt. For seven billion people and we are, to decide who we are again. I think that's a power four full, as we all get to do it together. Companies are redefining who they are and why they exist in the world. please are redefining who they are and why they work. And so one of my favorite things is awareness gives us choice. I dont think

were as aware as we could have been an faced with a real options it's like, we didn't have some of these options, but now we have faced with real options, and so what are we gonna? Do I think it will be the next grand spearmint over them the next decade, I dont disagree with it on, and I think we're in this moment were you know. The at the the day, even if you're, not a egg, but where there's this senior leadership structure that is sort of like open to re, imagining and open to conversations purpose and meaning and culture and compassion and and self discovery war revisiting your bottom line right now, and you are wondering how I might going to keep the people who I perceive, as my could best people, even though I have big issues with that phrase, and and that is for people who are most focused on that

that is now tracking back. I think in a much more linear way to meaning and purpose and combating all these different things. So, even if you weren't interested in it for like a more fundamental reason in your genuine interest in developing him and supporting the human condition, if your phone yeah, like largely on the bottom line and can be a maintaining a competitive edge and innovating. You have to go there, whether you want to or not that's right. I believe that can I is a strategic advantage. Leaden look I'm in this light, Work because it is my life's work, it's what I'm passion about and turns you- can make a lot of money being a compassionate leader. You can make a lot of money being compassionate company as the re. Search- bears this out, and so is it all of a sudden like finding out if, if brownies review, we found that there are awesome for you right if they are filled with nutrients. It's for me. It's the same kind of thing, although the brownie thing may not be true But when we as a company look at all,

our stakeholders, not just our shareholders, so all the stakeholders, the employees, the customer and the shareholders and we create a balance among them, we as it when he actually are more successful in The research I've seen shows fourteen times that fourteen hundred percent more profitable than the essen p average, and its counter intuitive. But it's kind of in a relationship. If we want to be happy when we're younger in our develop we just think about ourselves, but as we, in relationships? We have kids, we become leaders, whatever we realise about my job is to make all of us happy, including myself,. because, if I'm in relationship- and I'm just thinking about me me me me me me me is probably not gonna go for it. Well for me over the long term and the same thing is to have please, if they're, just thinking about the bottom line, only it's not

go very well, but if they start thinking, how can I make this a great place for my employees? can I really really provide value for my customers and solve their problems in a really meaningful way and sometimes I have to take decisions that are not great, for shareholders in the short term, so that Whole of us can be well over the long term. That's compassion, inaction and it's a great business, strategy. Yeah, I mean I, it's fascinating, there's research and that the numbers around it are. Actually. It reminds me a little bit of up remember I heard I believe, is the founder of one may, flooring. Company like floor was sorta like this ditch carpet tile type of things and from day one. They had this fierce commitment to sustainability. How to completely re engineer the process so that we're actually respecting the plant in an industry which was sort of like well known for doing the exact opposite of the time, and everybody thought the person was like completely off

crazy right this impossible, it's completely impossible. You can't do that. You're gonna, like there's, no way to do it and actually was able to show, like No, I see the number show that it's it's a huge competitive advantage when you're willing to do this, and that was in the context of sister nobility and then in the context of mine from it Compassion, like I think, it's really powerful to be able to actually step and say no actual numbers behind this as well, but I realized: we have used the word compassion, a number of times now and you ve talked about it, but my curiosity, is: what are we actually talking about when we're talking about your passion, I d, like this there's lots of great definitions. I define it like this. It's three parts, the first is having an awareness of any of the others, a sec is having a mindset of kindness, or wishing the best for others, and the third is the key. To take action if you think at this in a business perspective in these three steps First, is awareness of others in you can take

Customers or employees, but you I have a deep awareness of my customers, many but he's. Do many companies, don't the second is to have a mindset of wishing the best for them. Ok, that's a little bit harder. Am I really trying to solve my customers problems? Do I really wish the best for them? And then the third is the to take action- and this is where gets really hard, sometimes because its courage action means that sometimes we're going to act on our customers behalf even when in the short term, it's not great for us. So as an example. talk about how we operationalize compassion at linkedin Our head of sales will stand in front of fibres. Thousand salespeople. That annual kick off and say. Look Our job as salespeople is to provide long term value. So don't sell something our customers dont need at the end of the quarter. Just you can hit your quota

while that is so different than what I was taught as a twenty six year old salesperson or it and in product development so have these. Your views a bunch of times a week where a product nanda comes in and shares with the product. Give team. Here's the latest revision of the product years, what it's gonna do and the results united cetera- and you know, it goes something like okay, we're going to do x, Y and z, and it's going to result in twenty. two percent more clicks in a twenty two percent, more engagement, and the first question if they don't answer themselves. First, questions always ok, what's the member experience like and if the ants is: where hated I mention it was twenty two percent more clicks. The meeting just stops, you know we go back to her and we have a discussion about our number one value, which is members first. You know, and I guarantee you that product entered thinks about that Next time they introduce something new. So, in other words, how

can we saw for the whole and by solving our customers problems by creating a great employ experience. We know that over the long term, that's gonna led to great business results as well. And I know you you get, that example was in the context of customers. Yes, I can say the problem being more curious about the context of colleagues turned himself. He was brought her right, because you're dead, less measure ball or less easily like metric mac metric a sizeable carrying an angle Annie. I couldn't leave right. I don't even know your reassurance of herbal right yeah. Oh, here's a way we're trying so that Let me start at the high level and then get into the goodness. Our you, our head of hr, will talk about treating people beautifully sometimes. I think I'll, let's create this big playbook on how to do this, and then, when I realize, is actually All you need is a mantra and a story you know the mantra the the tagline is treat people beautifully.

any time someone for us slayers deepen organization is riding a policy. The first thing in there ed is treat people beautifully. Does this treat people beautifully? What I'm about to put on paper? That's where it starts but how do we measure the stuff? Well, I think it really high level. You can measure things like attrition rates. You can make things like. Employee satisfaction and those are across a broad set of things, but with these kind of employee satisfaction surveys, so there's we bought a company called glint a few years ago is now part of lived in, They do three sixties leadership through sixties and employee satisfaction, a service, and what we're trying to do this is new. Is I've taken the behave, years of compassion and boil them down to kind of the top eleven or twelve behaviors, and if we put these in a leadership three sixty in a

as someone is asking about asking their staff for the people who work with like how do I rate as a manager. They can go across these twelve behaviors. Does I do, excellency on a scale of one to ten or one to seven whatever it is, come away with compassion index passionate leadership index and then, over time. Well, Let's say that we could. This is new. This is what I'd like to do over the next few years. What have you tie that compassion index, two things Also in that same survey like attrition rates or employee satisfaction rates, because those we can track towards productivity and creativity and other things that are really hard measures of the business that have real dollars associated with them. So I do think that this a bill the two measure, compassion of how we behave is totally coming at. The individual leadership level at the team level and at the company level. Now

I love that and really excited about that, because you know that. As it is so much that happens in the world of industry. Is you know if it's not measurable is not real and not worth getting behind or allocating resources too, in the notion that you might be able to actually at some point attach metrics too all the sudden makes it scalable and operational eyes ball across a wide domain of business, but I'm also I'm really curious about slowly. Approach that you just shared on abroad, scale, because if you're looking at these ideas in the context of of employees and leaders in in work environments- and you put The seeds of this in the context of work, I wonder whether you have also looked at will: what is the ripple effect into persons, personal relationships and tat, the way that they feel it themselves as they move through life into their health, their minds sector, the with it they live outside the context? In the domain of work, absolutely this is why mindfulness and compassion are the twin.

facts of my role. There totally related minefields, is I use it as a rich word for lots of things, but essentially means self awareness or the development of our self rain encapsulates all things. this mention all those good parts about developing ourselves and then compassion, because we don't or live in isolation. Compassion is how we work together, how we live together, how we operate and it's the system of me and the weak and both things over time, I think, will be more measurable already in the world of mindfulness specifically meditation must I went meditation, for example, already six thousand well over six thousand peer reviewed scientific papers that share the benefits of mindfulness, less less anxiety, less better relationships, better sleep on a kind of stuff theirs. Data at the moment around the corollary, correlation between mindfulness or meditation and productivity. Theirs

pardon me that doesn't want to go down this road because I dont want people to think hey, we're trying to get them to meditate, so they're more productive, but I also have the data to share with the sea sweet to say, even if you don't care about adaptation, this- is like you you're, going to create a more successful business. so overtime, I do think that we have more data that ties all of these factors together. That shows When we do these practices as an individual, when we do these practice, as a t, whereas a company we all Feel better about ourselves, we feel like were were making progress in the world and were making the world a better place, and you know it, our businesses actually more successful as well. the

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The. Yeah, it's funny as you share of these ideas that there's a thought bubble totally building over my head, which is very not mindful by the way it's like no genuine, be here now be here now, but you know If it's interesting, because people can see her face but even smiling the whole time, and that in this conversation and when you talk about these ideas, theirs in energy, and I wonder if it's in part that yes, it's really cool that you can. You can actualises in the context of big enterprise and get the resources in the structure and the scaffolding. Behind that the end there his thought bubble. That is building in my head and saying like at the end of the day. I wonder if he really cares about any of this or whether this is just like or whether this is just like a mass mass ruse to change the human condition fundamentally writ large.

well, it's all part of the same values and it ain't. So you know here's what I think. Each of us here's my my worldview, each of us at the root. best self are true self. What do you want to call that is soul and were wrapped by physical body and a mental body and emotional body. And the way we learned the way we evolve as to use those talents to to expire. Ourselves in the biggest possible way. So I thought of This question for a long time. How can I be a spiritual person and a purse of enterprise of business at the same time, this question ahead, when I was seventeen that what thought what I thought was black or white and to me now, they're all the same thing I mean in all of these skills, I'm using my performing skills. For my you know when I was a senior in high school and as the lead in my high school musical, I'm using my technology skills, I'm using every part of me the personality

so that I can develop this deepest part of a soul So when you ask do I really care about any this? Would at the human level absolutely like this? Is my life's work. but at the same level like a learned to detach rain. I I'm trying to learn to just do everything I can and then let go, and that is extraordinarily hard, less Ivan This is one of the biggest challenge. Than any of us have is. This what's the journey, not the destination yeah, but everything Entire existence talks about the destination, but it's the journey, yeah That is the great it's not irony. It's just like there's. This overlap, like were told, yellow to tat, touch attacks like be her now be a part of the journey and yet, if you don't have some sense of what you're working towards It's really hard and also like we become attached to outcomes.

We perceive as benevolent as good as constructive as healthy is vital, and we late, there's something. I can't talk about society, but something in me that says, but detaching from that if the notion is detachment from particular desired goal is fundamentally no matter what the outcome is is the they d be like fully to end like that is. The ultimate aspiration is to be without aspiration when you of all the amazing incredible things that you'd love to participating in helping. breathe life into really like does completely letting go of those really get you to a better place and get the world to a better place yeah, and this is the great however, I am not sure if it's actually completely completely completely letting go. It's like try, but not too hard strive, but not too much It's the both it's the middle path, you clearly just let go. Then you become like a leaf on the water. at the mercy of the water. I think we become

Whole creators with life, I think, would become coal creators with the debate and this how the divine expresses itself through our individual personality. So yes, I'm scot I have these big dreams and the end enemy. To do everything I possibly can to make those dreams come true, and I let it go do the parts that are the I'm responsible for and then, if life one. To happen around me or the universe once revolve around me. I dont control any of that there is an interesting point- is her light dive into a project that you ve been involved in recently because There is something really bay that europe that you been participating fully cooperating and founding and to take these ideas, and really share them at scale, says not just a link to thing, but this is like how do we take this? hurry. How do we created to rebuild the methodology around that everybody can buy into everybody can participate in and send it out into the world unleaded it do its work. I'm talking about the sand, tat you ve critical, the inner mba. Yes,

I think something like fifty people. Fifteen hundred people are in interpreted cohort right now she's, getting a lot of people looking at. Is offering which essentially takes a lot of what we're talking about here, and to methodology and accessibility around it. You like and bills away for everybody to say yes to it, I'm curious. Was the why, behind that right? Will the I guess the flame? What's it called the flame holder, the flame bear the torch, fair is Tammy, Simon from sounds true. he approached me and linked in and soaring gourd hummer from wisdom to nato, and essentially, we pulled resources altogether and created this thing along with new york university, and it's this structure that allows us to talk about these topics. that is sometimes hard to talk about it beautiful had almost? As you say, almost fifteen hundred people attend the first one and here's the thing I think

the more of us that have the more of this that happens right. Someone is trained in this methodology. These ideas, they silken marinate in these ideas and they go back to their place, and even if a just shifts them ten degrees. You know on their path. Liquid it can be more vulnerable Like me, six years ago, sky At my desk to be my real self. Me sharing my story and and I'm safe, six or seven years later. They see that and other people are they have to buy being themselves. will come out of the shells and it becomes easier the next place? I talked about how creed This role was just like this alchemy of prayer, circumstances that linked in and it's not like that, every place us I get it, but when we're out there and sharing increase this wave of safety people go back to their organization, go look. This is what success companies are doing right. This is this must be best practice right. These guys are ahead of the curve and

safer for them to go back and start something at their place. So it's like. Hopefully, during a giant bolder into the clear ponds and the ripple effect, take place yeah I mean it's interesting place to be an at and again especially at this particular moment in time like here, like nobody could have seen like that. Apparently some people could have seen offers kind, but before yeah, I think not none of us like imagine when you and and tammy and sore and sat down just really can see this like it wasn't in the context of the world that we currently live in great takes. It takes a moment to really make this happen in and out It is interesting that the three of you this way All three have eaten now like tat, for those out knows founder of sounds true, which was this wisdom company that shared the teachings of so many people and has expanded into publishing, and And she is somebody who's, profoundly spiritual also

a hard core and very successful leader in business alec, similar with socrates, but this, like the big giant global community, an event that happens year in year out. In wisdom. Practices to it's almost like yup and she comes from a small business perspective, although still substantial elixir unconcern this really big community perspective and you come from this enterprise level operations perspective and the outcome of that, and then you back into it an association with one of the biggest universities in the world and it's like ours so kind. While Kennedy was happening here, this is you're. Taking the credibility points and other deep wisdom and experience in all these different domains and saying so it's I think anybody who looks at these ideas and says not for me you're kind of like no. Actually, it Israel exactly mainstream, trying to mainstreaming one bite at a time there. Now the question now

talked about letting go of aspiration and desire. Yes by the way. This is totally my growth, hedge. So right absolutely as raising my hand here also like I am massively achievement, oriented and are focused, and that is why I have my practice every single day cause. It brings me back to this thing and you know. you put this into the world, you ve got it a huge response out of the gate. you think about what you're doing right now, what your building I mean, there's there's the container that you haven't linked in and you're doing credible worth there, but with new collaborative projects that is relating just out there for anyone to engage with. Do you have do you have a vision like if you think five years out, if this did everything you could ever imagine doing doing.

It is the outcome. So this was my pitch and is still my pitch. I basically said: look if we get this right in ten, There's there'll be more compassion in the world, and what does that mean? That means that companies will treat their employees better and of companies. Then, please better than the place will feel more whole they'll, be healthier. They'll, be happier, though, in an imagined, the knock on effect of every employee being healthier and happier companies treat their customers, they'll be more trust, will be more honesty, they'll be Less fraud will be less bad things in the world, and if we get this right, you know individuals will feel empowered to be at their very best at the work environment where we don't have to think that- one days are terrible on fridays are greater the work and the weekends are great. You will all be same of the same part of the experience

Oh, I change my tagline I'm linked into changing work from the inside out, which, if you, if you can That is an achievement, oriented person. There's there's no way to measure that I mean he probably could. But there's no way it's it's like enlightenment, its impact able to get all of the way It's another one of those goals. That's the great motivation strategy, but it's a terrible strategy for happiness if your reliant on throwing your hands up in the erika in the finish line, we have our work cut out for us and- and I guess that that is the way right there right isn't. If you're relied on throwing your hands in the air and crossing the finnish lie like rather than saying like no, every moment every breath. Every step is the finish line. Every conversation we have is so important. I was there As you know, I just I just disrupt this book is called the full body Yes- and I was you know, let's just say that

When I look at my amazon numbers and led to the conclusion that people to read books anymore, it's I had these, I had these big aspirations. I I just thought the numbers would be better and wildly optimistic right and toes complaining to one of my friends. But I was also sit, took him at all the things that I had done going on podcast giving talks and being in front of all these people, and yet my book numbers were acts. They weren't what I wanted them to be. My friend said Who cares? Who cares how many books you? So you just got to talk to the number of all these thousands of people? I got to talk to her singing the beautiful refrain it doesn't have to be so associated with a specific event. Its end, free conversations every moment and then the other part The kind of came to me in contemplation wednesday is like the divine, and I haven't conversation and the things it dude relax. You dont,

to change the world. You just have to be you. I can ok, that is my throwing my hands up in the air is, if I and in this moment in this day and this week, be me best version of me. That's it that's all. I have to do. And that feels like a great place for us to come full circle as well, so sitting with you in this container of life project. If I offer up the phrase to live a good life, what comes up So for me, I think about I think, about a sigh like a relaxing say like a sitting on a beach in the lounge chair sigh when I think That statement the good life it's a kind of the same as the full body. S like it's a relaxing into like you just know the good life, the full body. S is when you just know- they give surrounded by your loved ones. You lack of all that anxiety and stress and striving, and you just let it I'll go, and you just be the

S version of you that you can be that's and water happens, is whatever happens, but that's the good life. Thank you thank you hey before you leave, if you loved this episode safe, that you also love the conversation that we had with terror brok about finding at when nimitti and compassion no matter what comes your way in life, you'll find a linked to terrorist episode in the show nuts, even if you don't listen now be sure to click and download it. So it's ready to play when you're on the girl and, of course, if you have an already done so go

and and follow a good life project in your favorite listening app, so you'll never miss an episode and then share the good life project, love with friends, because when ideas become conversations that lead to action, that's when real change takes hold, see you next time the.