Question for you, do, you have any desire to be truly great at something you love polypi do. Maybe A piece of advice: don't follow the age old tropes about how to get there for decades. We ve been told that, in order to begin truly grated anything we need devote ourselves to thousands of ours, of deliberate practice or just as mad talent, even better. if you have both the way, That was a lie, or at least not the full picture. What if there was a third path that was actually the secret to greatness for many of the world's top performers across nearly every domain will, according to today's guest ron Friedman,

there is wrong. Is an award winning social psychologist whose specializes in human motivation and in his latest book decoding greatness? He breaks down the counter intuitive strategies of the world's highest performers take to achieve excellence. He specifically focuses on one that, maybe you ve heard of in a different context, but it never really comes into the greatness conversation, at least in the way that he really deep dives into it. He was inspired to write and research, this book by research on pattern, recognition, skill acquisition and creative genius, as well as a personal fascination with creators, entrepreneurs and athletes who accomplish things that almost no one else can so, excited to share this conversation with you on Jonathan fields, and this is good life project the

you ve, been spending a lot of time of less than three years are focusing on this kind of new context. I guess a sermon evolution of your work and its round this notion of greatness, and I I want actually talk about that and be constructed a lot of ways, but at the same time Some fascinating conversations that have taken me by surprise over the last few years. When the word greatness came up just as a phrase, it seems to be fairly innocuous fairly inspirational and aspirational, but in some context, I've actually seen it be triggering there's a sort of there's a weight of judgment and expectation that can sometimes right along with it. That has led to unexpected conversations and I'm curious, whether in the work that you and you have found that at all you know- I don't view greatness as a black and white. This is that the standard- and this is the best and therefore nothing else was good enough. I think that's, probably part of what makes that word triggering for

people in my case. The way I view greatness is simply top performance in your field as you identify it, and so it's going to differ from into person and that's a valuable because the things are, the elements that you find to be moving and impact for are the things optimizing for with the approach it present. decoding greatness. So it's really not about one standard for everyone to abide by, but rather a sense fifty two, the elements that you find impact for heavy that makes sense man and- and I think I m- I wonder- from being from the window that we are now yellow, hopefully emerging from you know, there's Also, this the more complex it had sensibility where people kind of like ok, so my standard for the last Five years really has been I just want to feel I can breathe. I want to feel it. I'm ok, I'm trying to get through each day and they weren't in interesting moment because to make the shift from had away

stay myself feel safe on nearly the best, days, maybe have a good day to Britain. Up to now say: okay, so how do we move from their? Where sir, been in a place of fear contraction, relatives static ness to this expert nation of disease, of where I might be capable of guy. Well, you that's what I love about this approach and, in one sure, we're gonna get into what I by decoding greatness. Further in the conversation, but what I think that it is allows you to do is an analytical and methodical approach to understanding what makes some one's work impact full and the better you are at unpacking example, that you find moving the better action you have for moving from being static, to achieving your potential and that's really what I set out to do in writing. This book is give people the tools that I know that so many top performers are secretly using that. No one

talks about and there's a reason why nobody talks about reverse engineering, there's a stigma associated with it and ensure will touch about it will touch on that shortly. But I think that something that needs to be de and debunked because The reality is, these are the tools that people but the professions are using unless you know about them, you're going to feel stuck death, makes a lot sense to me. So you, sir, to give us a shorthand of lake. Here's what talking about what I'm talking about greatness, which I think is helpful. There's also interesting split. You know this relate the old school approach at least publicly a hum and then there's that maybe what's not and a new lens that you're advocating, but it's actually a deeper set of truths that at an elite few have sort of been diving into and your servicing? Let me pull back the curtain on what is really happening here. Bullets kind of talk the traditional lens on the pursuit of greatness a little bit first, because I think that's the starting point yet so there are

additional stories we've been told about greatness and how success happens. The first story is that greatness from tat. This is the I gather we're all born with certain innate, strengthen that the key to finding your greatness is identifying a field, but allow so strengths to shine second major story is that greatness comes from practice. This is the idea that, if you just find the right practice regiment and you channel discipline that eventually you'll succeed, but there's a story about greatness and that's the topic of my books, and it is the path by which a stone a number of artists and innovators and entrepreneurs have travelled in that path, is reverse engineering, and but what I mean by reverse engineering is simply finding extraordinary examples in your field and then working backwards, figure out how they were created. The since made before we got into that. I want actually want to parse these two different notions and more traditional oceans of a bit more

in the talent side of things. I think a lot of people look at that. As you know like you, either have it or you don't. You know, there's something that is genetically endowed and you've got this thing, and you know like you, you try and match up with The domain is to this innate, give that you have, but also once you get the idea that your busted you now certainly came over, and you know then comes all this research around practice, and I think you candles ericsson, westward the leading boys and excellence and expertise who pursues this. It gets popularized in no small way by gladwell in Iraq. As the ten I was now a role which, which anderson says knew not quite sure who, but but there's this notion of a case of their talent. You know and then there's this type of practice his cooling and hard incremental in no small way, and I feel it. that has been the dominant therein, the dominant approach and the dominant commerce

asian especially deliberate practice for well over a decade now- and you know when you think about those two things. A lot of people have said. Okay, so let me figure out what is that anything at me and let me and what I'm doing with that? And let me do this deliberate. guessing it doesn't always work all that well for a lot of people. Yeah, that there's a a stunning problem with this idea. That practice is the path to getting to greatness, and it's because you can't pact an idea, but you ve never considered, and so yes practice, and help you elevate your skill, yes, having It is going to be important in terms of achieving success, but if all you're doing is relying on talent or practice you're not achieving at the height, your potential and what you need.

I argue for in this book- is that you need is us, is a methodical set of tools that allow you to deconstruct the work of the people you admire, whether they be or mentors or your contemporaries, which allows you to accelerate or learning and empower you to find new techniques that you can incorporate into your work, thereby improve both your performance, but also your creativity, yeah. That makes a lot of sense. To me, I mean, I think, there's an interesting analogy with the world of startups that neil for for more than hot minute, really the lean, agile approach to developing rapidly prototyping, like iterating to optimize a product or an idea or brand, has been real. in vogue end you, but you hit a limitation in that it, like you, can take a a widget and and through that process, make it the best possible widget as quickly as humanly possible. But what? If there's? fleetly different thing: that's ten times better than that, like you, don't, I think, that's kind of where you're going there nothing in that process,

That lets. You see something entirely different. That makes the giant Leap frog towards a whole different level of expression yet actually right- and when I talk about in the book, is the idea that people who argue Hence reverse engineering, because there is a concern that, if you're looking closely at the work of someone else. Then you'll be reducing yourself to a hack or civil imitating their work. That's just it can do. is a misunderstanding of how creativity happens. Creativity comes from blending ideas, it doesn't come from working in isolation, and so the last thing in the world you want, when you are trying to be creative, is to shut your of off a dark room and try to come up with their own ideas, because the longer you consider the same, ideas, the more likely you are to get stuck in a loop and so what One of the studies that I talk about in the book that I think is so fascinating. Is this research showing that if you were to take reverse engineering to its extreme and just copy the work of some one else, you would assume that makes you less creative, because now you just go

saying that is, as it turns out, copying the work of other people. Actually it's you more creative. And so I tell you more the study, its research can by creativity, experts at the university of Tokyo, where they had amateur artists come into the lab and they divided the two groups. The first group was ass decree original paintings for three days straight. The second group was to create original paintings, but on the second day they were, the copy the work of an established artist and then on the third day, they were asked to resume, creating original works, and then they an objective raiders and they them evaluate the paintings created by the two groups on the final day to determine which group was most creative and what they found was. It was the second group, the group that I paused to copy the work minister we started that was significantly more creative and critically it was by copying the work of the artist whose work they had copy. Rather,

had gone off in completely different direction. So the obvious question is: why is that? Why is copied someone else's work, making more creative and its because copyright the process of going step by step and try to recreate the work of an established artist forces. To compare your instinctive inclinations against the choices of a master and that process of pausing every stroke to determine whether you're on the right path, forces, who consider again to a mindset of considering also of options that you would normally ignore, and so, when you go back to creating your own original works. Now eyes are open to pursuing all these different directions and all these opportunities that were actually hidden in your work, the entire time and so again, if you're opposed the idea of somebody studying somebody else's work too closely. I think a year frankly blind to how learning happens, because that's how we first learn as we imitate and we evolve and- and secondly, I think that you are limiting yourself in terms of your a bill,

to be as clear as you could be inside. Describe it in the book is just operating within we'll blinders. That's that's what people who assume their creativity comes from within them in fact there are just a much easier and more enjoyable approach. The ad there's there's a certain blessing to being just a touch derivative, or at least make that paragraph. But here's which, undoubtedly in that in that study you that you reference the on the second day that one group was and the task to actually like copy the work of a master might bring went to the place my brain said as your sharing mad what if they were actually given the task of copying. The work of just someone, who's style and voice was profoundly different than theirs. Even if this wasn't master like did it to do with the fact that there are copying the work of a quote master. was it more about the fact that there were forced into a parent of reproducing somebody who approaches the creative process and creates creative act.

put that is so different from theirs that it forced your brain into morbid divergent mode, and it makes you have to think differently about the work that you come. Your crew, from that moment forward like what does it even matter that its master to masking the I think, that's a great testable hypothesis, I dont know so, but you're thinking like it like researcher, which has great what I would It is that I think that we can all learn something from someone else's work, and a question is just a matter of how you utilise your available bandwidth so The way that I view this house asked how you privately about this article, that I'm writing for the wall street journal about creativity and the limitation about the way that we think about creativity in the opportunities that exist by looking at the work of others, and I think that the way that I, the hour I that I think that how people take away from this is that if you have All these guilty pleasures in your life that you are dismissing because they don't feel productive. I want to challenge that because I think if you enjoy,

middle eastern architecture or reading, beat poetry or even watching keeping up with the car dashes there value and that, because it's in taking up The elements that make those works, unique that you identifying the tools that you can incorporate or the elements that you can corporate into your own worked him to take that into different directions, and so to answer your question, it was the work of a master or just someone who's styles very different. I suspect that either one it was activities would have helped in comparison to simply just working on your own and in working in isolation and trying to come up with something uniquely creative yeah there image with made may be more of a yes and then either or tat the thing, but would be an interesting tat, because it is a test tube hypothesis right. You can the richest swap in amerika a six. Radars here, like a diagram opera.

Or something like that and see. If you get a similar result, which we pretty fast and if you did you bought at this rate, we reverse engineering a number of times now, let's go deep into this, and it certainly what you'd call the third path, the one that nobody really talks about, but the one that is really secretly being done all day every day by the people who are at the top of their various different domains and fields, taught me more What we're talking about! We are actually talking about reverse engineering. Yes, sir verses. Simply means finding extraordinary examples in your field and then working backward to figure out both how they were created and how you michael about recreating them. So silicon valley. This is a very well known approach. This is how we got the personal computer and laptops and the mouse and the iphone, but What people don't realize is that, outside of silicon valley, this turns out to be quite popular as well. So this is how, in part how Stephen kay and Malcolm Gladwell learned to write

How artists, like claude monet, pablo picasso, learn to paint and how it is a great story in the book about how judd avatar reverse engineer his idols to become the comedy legend that we all recognise. So reverse engineering turns out to be far more popular and common than most people realise, and it's an approach that can be applied to any field and I'm happy to get into how you the listener. And start applying this, regardless of whether europe, someone who's speaker and entrepreneurs, or just someone working within an office, there's all sorts of pathways that you can you can identify in this book that can help Of your performance at work, and it really depends on where are in what field you we are hoping to master, and so the text to be specific techniques will be determined by your field. So, just to give you a few examples, writers, I'm I'm a writer, and I can tell you that nonfiction writers will often go to the end of a book and look at the end,

odds that will that reveal the bibliography that talks about where the sources that went into creating that book? I came from ass will often order dishes to go so that they can pass out, the ingredients might spreading a dish. out on a white plate sentences, a magnifying glass involved photographers willow. Clues that are hidden in images like the length of shadow is or the reflection in a person's eyes that tell them with a look vision of the light source and also the time of day in which the shot was taken. So the critical thing passively, enjoy experiences, but to continuously ask yourself how is thus created? What can I do from this. And how do I apply this to my next project yeah? So it's about sort of late and seeing if you can parse the structure, the ingredients, the elements and, as you mentioned, that's gonna be completely different depending on the pursuit and yet the each person's unique pursued an hour, but also, I would imagine, each person's unique make up.

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the project is supported by peloton. So I have been a huge fan of peloton for years now and you may or may not know, actually have a past life in the fitness and the wellness industry. I owned a training center for years. I taught so many different types of classes and I owned a yoga center for years and taught yoga in different modalities. One thing I've learned in the research supports this is that when things get repetitive and monotonous, they get boring and when things get boring, people stop moving their bodies, and that's one of the reasons I love peloton. There is so much novelty and excitement and change built into it. You literally always wake up to something new and fun. Peloton is also more than just a bike company that you make a treadmill and a rower, so you can discover a whole new world of exciting classes that change working out from another dreaded task to something you want to stick with, and it's really hard to lose motivation, because there's so many different types of classes and have also a game of fide the workout experience with lane break. So you can now paddle to crush levels, and you never have to choose from all the different styles and intensities and durations of ways to move your body. You can also move to your own beat in life and in your workouts, and the music is always changing. I sometimes will pick a class just for the music, everything from gospel to metal rods to idiot marks or even a scenic road through san diego, no matter where you are starting from peloton instructors are there to take care of you and now peloton spring offers here. Right now get up to four hundred dollars off peloton bike, tread or row packages, all access, membership separate offer ends April. Second, two thousand and twenty three excludes basics, see additional terms at one peloton: dot com, that's one peloton dot, com or just click. The link in the show notes

the project is supported by sweat the technique. So how do we get better faster? Well, it starts with mastering the art of learning, and that is why I am super excited about a brand new podcast called sweat the technique. It's the perfect show for people like us who want to optimize what we do and how we do it to sweat the technique it's hosted by for path, breaking educators, who come together weekly to apply lessons from the classroom to all areas of life, from parenting, to relationships, sports hobbies and beyond. Each episode features an interview with a luminary in the field so current and be a coach who gives insights into leading a winning team, a best selling author who discusses technology's, evolving role in our lives and the founder of the world's best surf school. Who explains why being a beginner as an adult is one of the best gifts that you can give yourself so immerse yourself in the art of learning with sweat the technique. From the last debate, podcast network, you can find sweat the technique on amazon, spotify, apple youtube or wherever you get your podcasts. There's an approach to thinking that

you talk about that. You describe as algorithmic thinking, which is really serve like it. It's putting on a metal lens, it's getting into the surely the pattern, recognition level and there are sort of like a series of sub skills under that. So walk me through this a bit more yeah so critically. I just want just to put put a bow on the previous point you know, I think, we're often told to to be curious. I wrote it means I mean I get yeah. I want to be curious, but I need a method and that's what I'm trying to do here is give you a method to channel that curiosity and so algorithmic thinking is the great transition, because algorithms, like tender and spotify work and without too far into the weeds of how computer programs operate. Algorithms like tinder with a very good at his predicting who you are going to find attractive and how they do. That is by giving you a set of images and asking you whether you like it.

You are personally, you want to get to know them, and you do that by swiping right. If you liked them is swiping left if he d dislike them and after tender has a number of examples of people use swiped right on it. Does some analyses to determine what those individuals have in common and what's ass a dating why these things why these algorithms are so effective is because their aim to identify features that you might not be consciously aware of, and so it might find, for example, that your attracted told individuals or people who are extroverted are people who, like spicy foods, that my the obvious to buy just looking at their images, but by looking all sorts of features that are indicated. their profile or commonalities in their images tenders able to to identify them and, as a result, its then able to give you two general predictions about who else you might find attractive and start feeding you. Those images same for spotify spy, if I dunno, if, if you have spotify, don't dont, you do so no you listen to discovery weekly I didn't

I an I actually like sometimes curious, unlike like where's, is coming from. Ok I'll, tell you the one If, if you are a spotify listener, there are two features: are monetary about discover weekly comes out on Monday and straight arched comes out on friday, sir, this rate are simply is artists, who you ve liked in the past, when they have a new song that will be? I will show up and release radar and try to discover weekly with that is. It looks at patterns within the songs that you have liked, and I if I songs may not be new songs, but just songs that share those underlined patterns, and I have I feel like I, you know I feel, like I've trained us algorithm discussion, Discover weekly has a higher hit rate for me. In other words, I will like fifty percent of the songs on that list, as opposed to release radar, which is more like twenty percent, which is all much better than new music friday, which is like maybe three percent which cause that's all over the place it so

as an example we discover weekly, is, is very similar to how tenders algorithm operates, because it's looking for underline patterns in examples that have identifies a successful examples. Now how this is of into all of us- is you can you that same approach to reverse engineer exam. A: u fine, resonant your fee. So in the case of that's a europe, a public speaker, what you might start a collection of speeches that you have considered impact full, so maybe you have collect transcripts, maybe it's just the presentation tax and so it at the end of the book. I give a range of tips to how to or break the suppression of your life in the first hip has become a collector and its because, just like spotify or tinder. You examples of works that you ve, considered impact falsity. You can start looking for commonalities, hidden in those work and then beyond that

step is to play a game called spot. The difference now spot the differences, a game we ve all we're all familiar with from childhood. It's when you have two images side by side and your job is to identify discrepancies between the two images what's different, image a verses image be here, you can do the same. And for the items in your collection. So if you're looking at presentation, that's what you might do as compare the presentation decks that made it your collection against presentation, tax that you consider middling and just didn't warrant being anymore and your collection, which might find our commonalities lie, Maybe there are fewer words on the text that you, like? Maybe the images feel more active or have a higher and more positive emotional tone that sort comparison is going to help you do with tender and spotify does in order to improve its pattern, recognition you're just incorporating that same approach into your life and that the definition of algorithmic thinking

powerful on so many levels. You know when I think about this approach. On the one hand, it makes perfect sense, yellow get going, the data set of of people, things project output that has succeeded on level where you can say that's where I want to get that's what I want to do. A creator maker be an answer. deconstructing you mountains. Here s a one a day, similar about these, what's different about them, like word of the shared patterns and yet at this in time intellectual I live in the world, the books are similar to you and end media and there have been countless attempts to deconstruct slash, reverse engineer the narrative structures of both fiction and nonfiction bucks books, movies, in a way try and help ensure that when a case and now when I write mine, I'm going to follow- this this thing this map this model, I how you're like these people done before and succeeded at the highest possible levels and yet

those domains as much and in a huge amount of intelligence and money, has poured into trying to figure things out and then reproducing them yoke. Almost every epic movie, every movie they come down the summer is based a very particular model. He announced like the action, based on a model. You, like the redemption, started there all based on proven stories and models that have worked in a really huge way, and yet the hate, of everybody who's trying to leverage these patterns to become extraordinary, to create the greatest thing ten system, really LAO exceptionally low success rate so what's happening. There are great question I think, what's happening, if at all, the un's expectations are shifting. So the more you see the same pattern, the less novel it becomes, the more predictable it as and so in the book. I talk about the example of twilight where it was I came out. It was the story of a young adults who is in love with a vampire and as soon as that book

became the massive success that it became. There were all of these copycats and none of them the choice even a sliver of the success of the original, and it wasn't because they're all bad books. It was because audience expectations have shifted. It was no longer novel. What did succeed Louis when Abraham lincoln was a vampire hunter rights. It is about finding a unique twist ana the formula and what I think is really interesting when it comes to the blockbusters that to succeed, is that a large part of them are operated by marvel and what is it that marvelous doing differently and its because the reason I chose this particular examples, because I think marvel is actually quite predictable. If you look at its movies and you zoom out- and you look at the structure there very similar and soda. Some commonalities that be familiar with our eyes? Usual starts out with a hero who discovers new powers that he or she must learn to control they had to make a lot of

when their under mortal danger there tend to be allowed in fighting between the heroes. Alot of ties, the heroes are fighting more with themselves and they are with the enemy there. The pairing of the smart butts, it's martin sassy women with e emotionally immature. The very powerful man there is. The I'd seen at the end, that's usually see gee, driven and then there's a trailer at the end of an upcoming film, it's all very, very predictable, and yet it he used to do well and it's not Joe that fans like them. It's also critics that are giving raver views to these films, so that is really interesting how they able to succeed with the same pattern over and over again- and so It turns out what marvel does. Is it true is to be very careful out its selection of director- and this is a research out of inside that looked at more of process and they termed their approach? Inexperienced experience

and what that means. Is that a look for actors whose expertise lies in a field outside of superhero films and they bring that person and they bring. There should have experienced in the sense that they haven't superhero film before, but their experienced in the sense that there they have had succeeded as director, and you can see how each film is slightly different enough to make the formula feel fresh, so in the case of or the? If you seen that film Jonathan, but the original thor's were pretty dark and then they brought in a improv comic to direct thought rag in iraq, and that film was very funny and was massively successful. And so the approach here is to take a proven formula and modify just

slightly so that it feels fresh, and that seems to be the common approach around many, the most successful evolutions in a wide range of range of fields, not just movies books, but also music and art. There's this there's, this notion of. figure out what the pattern is figure out, what the model is Rather than trying to just repeat as accurately as humanly possible stan, how to do it in a way that is slightly left of centre or slightly quirky. I think you have you have a phrase at you. It is optimal. Newness is that is that what we're talking about? He said it's not my phrase. It's leads from a cream le Connie who's, a harvard researcher who looked at what our fee Grant submissions to places like dna aged I get approved and what they found in their analyses. Was that The research that has a small degree

of evolution over the established norm, in other words, that they put the field just a little bit the proposed, in contrast, the proposals that dont really puts the field any further or the proposals that attempted something that never been done before those tend to get rejected, and so he calls it. A minor issue which was what's necessary is a minor dose of novelty. Any calls that optimal newness yeah. funding, because in the context, especially where you're trying to serve convinced people who get on board with something that you're doing if those other people have the ability to say yes or no, and there also entrenched in existing paradigm that potentially be shaken by you. Go step. Too far out of the box with a proposal, then its army. Like they are threatened. you need their approval, but their threatened. If you go too far outside of what they bought into to get where they are. Yes, I think that's right and I bet

people listening to this and thinking man, what he suggesting is just copy somebody else's work as modified slightly and as a result were fields are never going to evolve, and I just feel like that. A better way of life Yet this is that all that pressure that who is a creative professional putting on yourself to be completely original is completely or productive, because Not only are you gonna do have a worse time and be less successful, because, while the pressure here, actually get to be less successful. If you do achieve them completely original thing, because chances are oddy this won't be ready for it, and so with this approach, teaches you is how to take apart. The works that you find impact will understand what the formulas are that make those works, they succeed and then critically? Well, your creativity can come in and it can come from a variety of different approaches. You want to modify the existing formula and one of the easiest ways of doing that is defined elements that are working in different fields and incorporate them into your approach. So it's not about just recreating a stagnant for

over and over again, because again you're not gonna succeeded. That would you do you want to evolve, but don't overshoot the mark, because if you overshoot the mark going to be rejected any It's also part of the the the benefited cross pollination right of getting out of your silo case or reverse engineer. The model in your particular style of awesome figure out how to go a little bit left, but then it's on You were saying that those artists who were shown the work of a master that was completely different from them. Potentially be deliberate in exploring other silos. Even if you're not hinges in that, because plan seeds on how to you things in a different way and not but better guy, ugly right and in a great example of this, in one of my favorite stories in the book is how Barack Obama achieved political success, and so not a lot of people know this, but one Barack Obama first entered politics. He was not a success out of the gate. In fact, he got trounced in his first race for congress. He lost by marginal over two to one and the problem.

If you can believe it was that he was a terrible speaker, he was a law. School prefer sir, and as a law school professor, he was used to lecturing students, voters didn't reshaping lecture to, and they let him know at the polls and for a while. He thought about leaving politics until someone on his campaign staff encouraged to go and study were pastors were doing in the church when communicating to their flock and what he found after doing that was that they were using storytelling, there are using repetition, there were modulating their tone and he came back to politics in his approach was completely transformed and what I love a story. Is it illustrates that broccoli, it didn't, go and find talent, heating, go product. for ten years and come back up ten thousand hours, he looked to see what was working in a different field and incorporated that approach into the way. He d, speeches, and that method is the key to finding your greatness again, it's not about practicing cyber finding your talent. It is

about having methodical approach to understand, what's working in other fields and then finding new ways of combining them with what with what year it is you're approaching yeah. No, I I love, as as you were, sharing that I had this sort of instant memory a number of years back. I remember seeing Nancy Duarte, who runs like this and one of the leading presentation, design firms deep into storytelling presentation sharing keynote where she was putting these giant images of how she graphically deconstructed, some of the greatest speeches in the world than one of them was of india, of course, aimed martin luther king juniors. I have a dream speech you, just following she mapped out the linguistic patterns of the talk Look at I got here, so this is one of the greatest yet faith based it is of history, but also political base, social justice, activism and the pattern. Could be reported into nearly any other domain and an immense flashback too. In a hurry past life I taught yoga and newbie, yogi teacher. You know

business teaching yoga here, but I just I saw this inching up to the entrepreneur. Had a me pops on- and I find myself as the opening my own studio in in the time right, after nine eleven in new york city- and we have a packed house because we were place of community and healing and movement and breath, at a time where the city nebula needed more than ever. I found myself you, getting into a room that was Matt met with human beings, who really really needed something meaningful for me, and I met total newbie with no skills, so what's funny is like what I did is what you're describing. I into what was then each The video in new york city. I went videos actually to VHF tapes. I found the top ten best selling yoga teach it lick yoga videos I bought em. All then I watched them and reverse engineer. I wrote down the seat. Leagues sequences, pastures and vocal. Like kneeling utter of these teachers, and then I

A little shorthand, pinamonte no card slipped him info books. It was just like me alex at the side of the book there would have on nomad. Just enough, though, I could see it while I was in the room and the first, probably six months of teaching. On one day, I'm broad d on one damn shiva array of one day, a bare back teeth and people like wow you're phenomenal like this. If such an incredible experience and I'm I'm kind taken myself wow, I am stealing like an artist like nobody's business here because it wasn't me they were responding to, but in the process of copying and repeating it over and over ice to really understand what was happening and what was working and why things were put together in the way the were put together and it dramatic accelerant in my ability to, I think, step up and then start to own my own patterns and boys in the room that such a fantastic story and what I would argue is that by the end of that process, six months later, you were

an original, because you were a remix of all of your influences now contrast You did there with having to face that room. And not having any skills and then trying to find your talent or just the torturing those students for six months. As you practice your way to great trust me, there was still so torturing yeah, but I think that there's no question that you learned by having an approach that in empowered you too, your skills and how you did that was you took the examples and you distilled them into the text So these are the actions that you should take us an instructor and that I would argue, is something that most people don't do. Most people may have watched, else, but they wouldn't necessarily have identified killer phrases that were impactful this is how I learned a coach by the way when I I would look at various coaching session transcripts. Look at certain questions pick out the ones that I thought were really moving.

Were packed full and then I just kept a list and like you I had that sheet that our had not my lab that I would down on every once in a while and again I get the same reaction you did, which was like wow. This is really great, but it's that process of looking out into the world finding the examples that you find useful. and then figuring out, what's working here and if you're not during that it can take much longer to get to the peak of your profession. Dad completely gray and end its attention, because for me, the break out, move that that learning experience was it was a true accelerant. But the thing that was the real transformative moment for me was when I found myself never looking at that she'd again, because what started to happen is I had bodied enough sequences. ideas moments I patterns, and so my attention started to Let go of the road play. that I showed up to execute, which is a really good plan, more torres

constantly reading what I thought to be the perceived needs in the room on a moment mon basis and then drawing on my reservoir to reach. onto it in the moment, so there came a time were years in if you had ass may be stopped me. He liked forty two minutes into a ninety minute class and said what coming next. I could not tell you, it was a cop, in the moment, unplanned response what I saw happening in the room drawing upon what was then yelling out a lot of experience in understanding what works and what does it for this particular energy and moment? And it a hundred per cent improv and that when I am so when I moved away from all of the pre planned stuff all of the patterns, all the modeling that I had done and just loud myself to be fully present in the moment. That is when a true level of transformation in in teaching happened, and I think that that is a natural part of the process, as well as that you're gonna use reverse engineering to parts of the ingredients. You may

template ties them for yourself, so that you have a proven mile. You can t two when you're stock, but eventually it's going to come actually and but unless you're doing that first thing where you're taking apart the examples, it can take much longer to get there, and I can tell you for myself. I talked about starting a collection. As a writer, I collect The time I collect headlines, I collect powerful words. I collect transition sentences and I look at them from I'm too time, but most of it most of, and when I'm writing, I dont look at them. But initially I looked at them a lot. So I think that is a natural part of the progression that you you develop. That cook the collection you take it apart to in terms of analyzing it to determine what makes those elements unique you might the ties them at the beginning. But eventually you get to the point where your own unique remakes, and so what I people a lot people get stuck is in the lurch

in the process they feel like. Well, that's copying or that I'm borrowing somebody else's approach, but no because that's not the endpoint. That's not the end of the evolution. The evolution of will come later, but unless you learn in a way that gives you the tools, of the masters you're not going to the potential that you have in you, I think that said, you've got it there's a moment we have to kind of like, oh and trust. Is it a bit of a terrifying moment. I think for a lot of people, but, but I feel like you can get to appoint really really really good at all different things by holding onto a lot of the patterns of the past and replicating and refining and optimizing around them. You get like really good at something, but if we're talking about capital g greatness here, and and again like on a very unique personal level. This isn't contrast in getting one but basically stepping as fully as as humanly possible into what you're capable of to get to that sorta lake no one percent or one tenth of one percent in your own world life in domain. I feel like

doesn't happen unless and until you reach a point where your leg willing to step out of all the pre existing paradigms and then rise into something that feels like it's different and new. I Does that land with you yeah. Absolutely I but, but I think the challenge for most people is that they aim for that right after a ride on the right out of the gate and they miss the mark completely because they don't have the tools to get there. So you know I do think certain director, for example, quentin tarantino gone to where they ve gotten. By being methodical, students of people come before them and then re mixing the elements in a way that makes them unique, times those same directors try things that just on a map annabelle for someone to get a movie made on the level that they have gotten made. Had they not original succeeded by perhaps being less creative, and so I think it you really want to achieve that level of greatness by taking huge

things and achieving that risk. Taking. I think that you're better off having a record of success first, because achieving it re out of the gate without having that establish record of success is much much harder, and I can tell you that I think that this is this. Thing here about how this relates to see owes. I know a lot of sea yos, who are very good, their position, but if they got tomorrow, I don't think it ever be employed again at its because of that match between their petition. Skills and their particular context and because a parallel here where, if you are trying to learn a new craft. You can be far better off by understanding how others have succeeded in the past and eventually, yes, you, get to the point where you are evolving things in it and in a way that they make groundbreaking, but if you try

groundbreaking right out of the gators can be much harder for you to gain that acceptance that you need in order to be successful. Das, so agree with that. I think we want to leap frog, adding especially now, because there's this expectation of instant extraordinary it is like our time frame for everything has been impressed, and there are certain things you just can accelerate, but there are certain things that you can't their their steps and and windows and experiences that you can eliminate. You know I think, but I think a lot of times we're trying to do that. hey, prime members, you can listen to this show ad free on amazon, music, download, the amazon music app today, One of the things that comes up for me also is the role of a mentor or a coach or a teacher along the way, and this kind of goes back to our earlier conversation. You Anders Eriksson, who

so all of his original, were according this raised deliberate practice, its neo lake get this gruelling focused iterative, yelling, optimizing type, a practice that is not for the do, but you put in They were from a couple thousand two busily in hours doing it, and it makes a really big difference. His later work and actually, in his last book before he passed, he heads if his focus and really just in on the role of a mentor, the role of a coach and how critical that that relationship was in allowing somebody to move to the next level, any said. Yet it's not just deliberate practice. There is a huge importance on having somebody else involved to both call. You be asked, and it's not just about motivation, built up a big part that role If I read it right in and talk to him about, this was the ability to have somebody who, who is you see

it's happening and then introduce models and solutions and paradigms that you're not aware of to move you through sort of this threshold. I mean I'm curious, how you see the role of a mentor or a coach in this, the pursuit of greatness. It's a good question, and this probably will reveal more about my personality than it will about. You know any particular inside, but I personally prefer to be self directed and why do see value in a coach I more stayed in ways that we can optimize our performance independently, and that just is my personal press, and which isn't to suggest. I coaches aren't helpful, I'm just more interested thinking about ways that I can learn more from the examples that I encounter, because it's gonna be hard for me to find a coach is interested in going off with me in in get out all of the different political means that weaved we discussed and see?

the connections between those domains and the ones that I am personally interested. And now that said there is, I think, one really important thing to understand about erikson's work in terms of finding a right coach is that fight I coach is actually a lot harder than most people expect and it's because of something called the curse of knowledge, which I'm sure you've discussed on the show before in the curse of knowledge to refresh everyone's memory, is simply the idea that knowing some it makes it impossible to imagine not knowing it, which present a really serious barrier for a lot of coaches or a teachers who hope to impart? a particular set of skills, and so expertise doesn't necessarily correlate with teaching ability and in fact it research showing that the best way, searchers in a given field tent have no relationship in terms of like how well they perform as teachers and it's because of the curse of knowledge, but it's also because so many of the decisions that they make automatic are happening unconsciously and automatically, and so they have

It's not that they dont want to share their incites with you. It's but they're not even aware of how they're making their decisions unless you ask them to really break it down, and so in this book I talk about specific set of questions that you should approach. Experts were in order to better I unpack their process so that you can reverse engineer how exactly this that their operating so that's what I'm saying is my approaches, a more self driven, bought it. to the extent that you want to find a coach, I finding a good coach is actually really really hard unless you have the right questions, to arm yourself with and that's what I've tried to do in the book is give you those questions so that you know how to approach the expert and talk to them in a way that actually illuminates what it is they're doing, yeah and you'll feel safe. if the questions are not just for the experts, but it's also for the exemplars. It's for the people, where you say: okay, so you're the best of the best. Let me figure out how you how you landed where you are and a lot of time.

They're just readily available information, especially its more public person, you can like watch all the films, the tapes, their interviews and at the same time it if you're fort enough to actually have access to this person? You know, then, then the queen becomes okay so What do I ask them, and how so that I can get as much of the real relevant information even information that they may not be aware of, does not help but will be actually valuable to me in my understanding of how they got their away, where I can levers at him nation at my own path will accept Is something that we actually have more, we available than we ve ever had in the past in terms of finding the expert in your field and getting access to them and in that's through podcast like this or developing a blog, it has never been easier to find people who are experts in their domain and get a limited their time. In fact, one of one approach that I don't guess is used enough is action

contacting someone in offering to hire them to advise. You know it's something that I think we often assume that unless somebody has that available on their website that they're not interested but takes us, an email to say: hey, I'm I'm interested in some input on this, and b to compensate you for your time. Would we able to meet and I think that that is an approach that I've used, and I know that the people are open to that. Perhaps, under utilised and is an opportunity for some smart underpin to take advantage of the market. But in terms of What what did you ask there? I offer three broad categories of questions with examples of each and those three categories start with journey questions first, is having a person compare the initial expectations to their act, experiences in talking to them about questions like, for example, What did you pay attention to at the beginning that to be not very important- that's an example journey question, something that they learned

their time as a beginner to where they are now is an expert. A second set, of course, and concerns process. So just kind of, asking them to walk you through their day. a process when their creation mode. So what do you do? First way you next? What happens after that? Those sort of questions that really focused them their approach and ask you and get them to take it apart, step by step a third. So Since our discovery questions the discovery, questions are things they discovered that they weren't expecting and a greater apple of this one. Is you know if you, if you look back to when you first started and where you are today, what surprised use most as an example? of a discovery, question and those tight? Three types of questions journey process discoveries go a long way towards getting expert to share some of their insights and help. You reverse engineer what it is. That's worked for them super helpful the new I think about the people that I've talked about

or sought to to learn about the journeys and potentially model dirty trick. it comes up for me, also an enemy. And no an illustration would help explain why. So in a very past life, I have a lot of past life sparely. I got that teacher. I was also you long before that I was an attorney and I I worked in financial markets. I worked at the sea and then- and I was a complete about how the markets worked, and I was fascinated by human psychology and how it moves markets. Realising that really works, don't move based on fact. They move based on how people respond to their perception of that I started digging out on trading methodologies and patterns and looking like some of the greatest traders in their systems and how that working on a got interested in currency trading, and then I found, one trader, who is massively successful and then had basically taken his model, the way that he basely reverse engineer his own model. He.

Put it into a system of rules built it into a programme software that yellow you could buy for a lot of money back then- and you would essentially run on your computer and it will give you the identical, buy and sell signals that in theory he would have And after on, so you can you ok, so this gives me the billy effectively do what he does you like. So then I get and I let it run away one trade in right and adam like him and make a trade and yet Ok and then I followed the signal for the next one and it does badly and then- ex one does really badly, and then the next one and my countess craig during at which point I tat out but then I noticed had I followed the next signal on on the next day it would have been a huge win. It would have made up for all of my losses times five, but psychologically I was so that my my psychology, my risk tolerance level was so profound, different than the person it was modeled on that

if it was a valid system, a valid like me, any reverse engineer really well, the missing element was risk Tom. It's an that turns out to be a massive fail point. If you don't have that then to the model so how'd you. How? you find out like what are those spoken out like what's the missing element that even if you get everything else right, if you don't I realise that there is one profound mismatch in the model. The whole thing How do you elicit that from an exemplar sick request, It was very powerful story. I think my heart rate where Listening to it, I don't think I have the risk tolerance myself. Even if you talk to an expert, get them to share their approach. chances are seventy percent of the information. We'll be missing, and this is not my opinion. This is research that has been conducted with experts and having them deconstruct our process. Seventy four

the information is missing. However, when you talk to three experts, ten percent of the information is missing, because in its because there's overlapping information and each one fills a gap of somebody else's work, and so the think that that reverse engineering at one particular purse will ever reveal everything you need to know about their process? No matter what questions you come prepared with, I think a far better approach is to utilise the questions and speed to a variety of experts and it's not matter of quantity. Information is also about the match between your particular skills, personality experiences and expectations, and so sometimes certain formulas may not work for you, because you're not that persons. I give the example of the book right, reverse engineer. The most popular tattoo of all time, sir Robinson, and what you find you reverse engineer has talk, is that he conveys in total of one fact over the entire ted talk. What is he

instead he's telling a lot of jokes and he's telling you a lot of anecdotes. I'm not funny that approach that can work for me. So the key is not just to say. Ok, because certain robinson has the most popular ted talk of all time. I need to use his approach it, but than to look for a model whose Work resonates with you and then find a way of. First identifying what it is that works and then, secondly, adapting them I'll eat up in combination with a number of different models or by taking a particular for me. and evolving it to your preference and you know one of the things that I think happens almost automatically. As that you can't help in your execution, valves somebody else's formula. case I've studied a lot of different writers. I can tell you, I obviously like most writers love gladwell work. I also like the heath, work very much and there are lots of other fiction influence. I bring into my work and that you

He combination isn't something intentional into something that happens as a result of consuming lots of different influences, and so in this give example that you ve, shared you we do want to replicate someone's formulated. because it's going to result in monetary success, but in most cases when it comes to creative work, executing someone else's formula to perfection, will likely not result in success gather, make sense me: did you go back and invested in the algorithm, monsieur Might I heard what you did he sat down? I was done. I guess it was so. to me at that point, for me to be in a long term. I would have to be emotionally psychologically equipped to bear. a level of like bees swings, I just wasn't I just knew. I was like now like this: you can it be imitated existence even You know has a higher likelihood to later, and I check my the end. I didn't have a head.

invaded the skills of mine to be able to actually survive that experience anything we see that happening with entrepreneurship a times to people deconstruct they started, founders had done and all the stuff and dived into the world of of start ups now realizing that that is a brutal like a logical here, lay cauldron hum. Not just about he taking the steps. It is about standing the unique skill and state of mind and traits of mine that allow people survive that, even if you are capable of replicating the steps it took- and most of us are not either waypoint in this last night I was reading about the entrepreneur. I forget his name, who founded ring that device that you place outside your door. That gives you a camera. You can look at on your phone and just a few, years before receiving a billion dollars, for his company on from amazon, he was on shark tank had no money in the bank account and got rejected by all the sharks. I don't by you but

you got my dad told me it's it's the end of this. This guy, stuck with it, and was rewarded handsomely just a few years down the road yeah, some and I'm fascinated by their part it because, I think to me- that's always that's part that we never focus on. But it also is the linchpin in so much of it because you ve gotta, have the sort of like the psycho metric side of the equation as fast as you can, if it some, that your deciding whether you can certainly create your own britain riff honour version of Gaza. It straight. Far from from the way that your wired, If you know the exact steps is at least in my experience at some it'll, its brutalizing and and ultimately, I'm not successful. Place rusty, sir, come full circle a bit as well. You know we started out by by serve lake, saying they get lay. How do people feel about this thing? You called greatness, and some people experience. It is a bit of a wait and term in the car

of the world that we live in right now and in the imitations that were being given to rise to be our best feels like there a call. That's not just internal right now to explore this Also on the level of culture and society. Didn't are you? Are you feeling than as well? I think, if anything, what we ve learned over the last year in the course of time. I'm a that life is short and if you are settling for a day job but because you believe that you don't have the talent or you have that patients to practice for ten thousand hours think you're selling yourself short. I just really do in that part of the mission of this book. Why I wrote it and I really do believe that we all have the potential to achieve more. As long as we have a methodical approach for understanding what it is, that makes great works succeed and that's what I try you here and it is the appetite greater honesty, think bruce also burnt out in one of the things that I think that people

need to appreciate. Is that reducing the amount of work that you do likely will not help you anymore the term in terms of your energy level. It's because if you try to work less weapons, happening as you put more stress on yourself to do more and less time and actually exacerbates your burnout. But a more interesting and useful approach is to learn new things and there's a lot of research showing that when you learn new things, you elevate your energy. It's you you in your confidence and europe fulfilling, your basic human, psychological need for growth, and so what this approach gives you a method for learning new things quicker in a wide variety of fields or whether it is you're trying to understand what makes the best blog succeed. Why particular speed is impact for how you can write proposals? All of that comes down to having that methodical approach of collect? expanding the difference and then template ties in the work that you find great and involving them in different directions: dip them on board. With that So I'm sitting here

container, a good life project, always open, back to my same final question. If I offer out the phrase to limited life, what comes up, I think Then a big part of it comes down to reverse engineering yourself. So I can hell you the right answer for me is I have identified some particular sperience is that contribute to the best days and how I've done that is actually one of the techniques I talk about in this book, which is called reflective practice. We talk a lot about deliberate practice over the course of our conversation, deliver practised against being the ericsson term for finding things that you're, not particularly good in executing isolating them. Do you lots of innovations to get better reflective practice is. I have high hopes for this phrase, because I think it's a term that hasn't made it into popular culture and hasn't breeders. Leave the attention it deserves. It is a term that first to the idea looking back on past experiences and using that to do so,

a new insights about what it is that has worked or not worked in the past, so reflective practising what that means in practice is getting yourself something that is a very widely available and any bookstore. It's called a five year journal and. The five year journal operates is that it gives you three hundred and sixty five pages one day for every day of the year, it's got five slots on each day and so on each day of the year, you'll put in three sentences about what you did that day or what you learn that day and then this for a year after year, you come back to a particular page annual enter what that day, but also get to see what you did on that same day a year prior, and that experience reflecting every day on what you learn, and going back to seeing what you did on preview on the same day. Previous years helps you translate experience

into knowledge and your costly learning new things are constantly reminded of overblown fears of successes that you may have forgotten your strengthening your memories, all kinds of good things come from reflective, practise social research that if you just take a few minutes at the end of each day to write it what you learned on that day, that will improve, performance over twenty percent. So there is A wide range of benefits, teasing reflective practice. In my case, what I, Discovered through reflective practice is that the best days tend to have three elements. They tend to include learning, creativity and exercise. Those are the three colors for me for a great day, knowing that is really useful. How many of those day? How many of my days include all of those features not enough, but they have gotten better over course of time, and I would have an I would not have had that direction. Had I not conducted reflective practice, reverse engineer the best days for me, and I am hopeful that people as they think on some of the insight in the book will incur

wait. At least that is is start. Applying reflect practice to reverse engineer what it is that makes a great day for you, so that you are being more intentional with how you use your time. I love that thank you might or the day before you leave if you'd love this episode, safe bet, you'll, also love the conversation we had with K, anders ericsson, also known as the father of world class performance, excellence and expertise. In fact, we even mentioned him in this episode and he's the person who did the research that is often misquoted as the basis for the famed ten thousand hour rule you'll find, linked to Andrews episode in the show notes, and even if you don't listen now be sure to click and download it. So it's ready to play when you're on the girl. But of course, if you haven't already done so be sure to follow good life project in your favorite. Listening up so you'll never miss an episode and then share the good life project, love with friends, because when ideas become conversations that lead to action, that's when real change takes hold see you next time

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