The so. Would it surprise you to learn that the depth and quality of your relationships is the single biggest determinant of a life? Well lived? Well, that's what one of the longest running studies on human flourishing the grant study showed. But chance are you need data timber wave that you just need to look at your life and the life of those around you, especially in our recent experience of life. Having genuinely open com and honest vulnerable, loving relationships simply makes life better, and over the years we have had the opportunity to sit down with many of the leading voices, researchers and thought leaders on this topic to asked them about their

experience there, insights, awakenings and strategies, and today we are sharing a powerful relationship round up with you. So will hear about a re, imagining a family as more expansive chosen, family, friends and community with me a birdsong and will explore how buddhism for noble truth can both guide and transform long term. Loving partnerships will discuss both the magic and the challenge of creating new, true friendships as adults and explore ways to invite more of them into our lives with cat villas and we're taking things off with julie and John gottman married and collaborating professionally for decades as

founders of the legendary gottman institute, which is often known as the love lab that brings together a powerful academic research and tens of thousands of ours of practical application. Their science meets on the ground. Reality will completely open your mind and give you a powerful new set of ideas and tools to work with. So, let's dive now opening up with julie and John gottman. Met yet the global private aviation leader is known for personalizing every detail of your travels because net, yet standard is not just to meet their definition of perfection. It's to exceed yours, discover more at net jets, dot com.

so the ten percent happier podcast has one guiding philosophy. Happiness is a skill that you can learn. So why not embrace it? It's hosted by dan Harris a journalist who had a panic attack on national television and then send out on this journey of transformation and he's now on a quest to help. Others also achieve peace and happiness, and every week Dan taught you top scientists meditation teachers. Even the odd celebrity in wide ranging conversations at explore topic, psych productivity, anxiety and lightness, psychedelic and relationships. The interviews cover everyone from bernay brown to cerebral less to sam Harrison more. I love learning from his questions and experiences and incredible guess think of listening to ten percent happier as a work out. For your mind, fine ten percent happier where every listen to pot casts.

Good law project is supported by the economists. So the world seems to be moving faster than ever: climate economics, politics, ai and culture. Wherever you look, events are unfolding at a rapid pace and it's hard to stay on top of it, which is why I love that now, for the first time, you can get a one month, free trial of the economist, so you won't miss a thing I have literally been reading the economist I want to say for decades. I love that it covers more than just economics and finances you'll find coverage on topics from politics to science, to technology, even arts and the environment. The economist offers this global perspective with really incredible clarity and deeper analysis, so you can dive into specific issues or catch up on current events, I was just checking out this article on the changing landscape of tech, jobs for recent computer science grads and how everything is changing so fast. It was a real eye opener and with the economists free trial, you'll get access to in depth independent coverage of world events through podcasts, webinars and expert analysis. As soon as you sign up, if you're interested in subjects like this go to economist dot com, slash project for full access to the topics that matter to you, an original analysis as events unfold, that's economist, dot, com, slash project or just click. The link in the show notes to start your one month, free trial with the economists today, because the world won't wait in a great

they ship. Even a conflict, the ratio of positive emotions to negative emotions was five to one five times as much positivity as italy, even when their conflicting about something a great relationship was thing. I'd never experienced before I had met Juliet, but let's make that one perfectly clear What you tell me, what you mean by positivity negativity? There were all positive emotions like entered then one another amusement share? if empathy understanding, kindness, compassion, comic, a partner down reassuring your part in all kinds of things that people due to being the one another kindness and generosity, all those positive emotions, glinting joy and

ecstasy, and things like that, which we really observe in a laboratory and all the negative emotions like hostility and belligerence, domineering and anger, and this point men, the sadness and heard feelings and all those negative things and those come and conflict as well. But an happy relationships, it's like Negativity is like one of those whirlpools just spiral down, and people and dig out of it there caught in this trap, this whirlpool of negativity. But in good relationships. They have so much of a cushion of positive emotion that they easily escape when they continued hits. They can act. It is well to enter and in on him. Relationships I can't exit they can enter, but they get sucked into it. Can't you So that was a real surprise in a way. Those findings are really very simple

describing the differences between happy and unhappy marriage so the things that we need: five of these positive experiences for every. The negative experience to reach like whether our we describe healthy what certainly during conflict. Ok during non conflict, its twenty positive to one negative right What's the, how do you define conflict versus non conflict? Conflict is you're trying to solve a problem, and you have a disagreement. Ok, that's what we mean by It's like so you're discussing a problem. You have different points of view about it and you're trying to figure out how to solve it. That's how we're defining conflict so during that phase- discussion the good couples, five to one positive to one naked

and when you're just going about you, know your everyday interaction, you're cooking in the kitchen you're, you know just having and with the kurds, you're hanging out together, that's one a positive to one negative there. that makes sense to me- and I guess that also introduces discounts from but that you do of bids, tell me more so John and I created on the university of washington campus, an apartment plan and in this little apartment we created a broom that very much that could be an be so people stayed there Twenty four hours they were in bringing freeze- and they would make me off- there was a tb and so on, and we watched them for it.

Twenty four for hours, so is just like a being be, except that we had three cameras bolted to the walls. We took their urine. We took their blood, you know, but other than that it was a perfectly and be experience right and what we noticed in all all of the tape we were watching was there at people move, make these little tiny bids for connection so First, you know we couldn't figure out. Why were differences between the successful couples and the ones who didn't do well, because we were following these couples, four years after they came to the apartment lamb, and finally, John in a colleague of his figured out that there were these little bits for connection meaning you might just call your partners name and see if your Partner said yeah, that's a

in response to a bid for connection or one person would look out the window, because there was a beautiful view outside and might say, wow look at that fantastic boat going by and the person could do of three things? They could either turn against, which look like stop interrupting I'm trying to read, or they could turn away meaning. nothing there been no response whatsoever or they could turned forwards and We just look like this hall while there. All too and made a huge difference. We found that when we followed these couples, the successful couples turned towards each other's bids for connection eighty six percent of the time, a It sets a lot the decision.

stress couples who ended up a really unhappy her divorcing turn towards each other. Only thirty, three percent of the time see that difference. Fifty three percent difference and whether they turned towards or turned away or against, so we saw them. This was an incredibly powerful factor in what made relationship successful or disastrous How much of much of the result of success versus failure was due to the turning towards the act of turning towards. First is the response two. Like the added like to me, my I guess my curiosity is how much of it was about simply noticing that there was a bit being offered acknowledging it very

is the nature of the response to the bed and are like he was at something I was even deconstruct about. Knowing that usually I mean basically, the unit was the attempt to connect and the response to it, so it's a kind of interact rather than but true, interestingly enough, that in couples where there wasn't much turning toward It was also not pray. Much bidding. he was an really connect as well but of course you know all of these findings. He's a correlation of finding, so we don't know what's causing. Is it too happy relationship is causing us? So we to do experiments in iter, when you increase them of turning toward noticing bids, which is put part of that and the way This too really meet the need, that's being expressed, sometimes verbal expressed, then a lot of other good stuff increases so weak,

really measure and assess whether these things or causally related, or correlations of being in a happy relationship. it turns out that these things really are skills. If you bill the skills, your change, the nature of the relationship? That's what julian discovered when we first started working together, from her really the huge amount of experience doing therapy with the most distress people. Experience measuring things put that to you and we created a theory with ip This is about causal connection. And them in time three years of working together. We can test those out Firstly were wrong, The data were informing both of us, but it the combination of her clinical experience. Her said the fur well in pain.

And my training and measurement and mathematical models of relation absence. Statistics combined together. Environmentally, they can create a theory that could help people it's like the idea. The super skill is out of observation. The super skill of coding, certainly together, right rates. This your magical yeah. Let me also point out that, because we studied overthrow, thousand couples. What we could do is look successful. Couples see exactly what they were doing, because there were really very clear patterns about what they were doing to make their relationship successful. Then we could create exercises and interventions to help those who are distressed to do the same things in their relationships that the successful couples were doing. So we very carefully analyzed what were they doing created

exercises tested those exercises to see if they actually worked and sure enough they did and then We began teaching nos two couples who came to our workshops, who came to therapy there so it's almost like if Jonathan described the when you it is in in the problematic relationships it there were just very low level of bids happening in the first place and you do. There the research to figure out causation versus correlation. Then you can start to understand. Maybe this is actually more of a learned, helplessness that you just give up right and then, if you can see that you reverse it if people are learning helplessness while then may They can also re, learn exactly to be constructive. Together, yeah you to flee, beautifully poet, Jonathan

we were really trying to do- is create the safety for those couples to actually make more bids for connection so that they could slowly build trust and teaching the other partner. How to spawned to those bids. It didn't take alone it was just a small little time, response like yeah or aha, that's all it took and thickets in the whole course of their relationship over time which seems so almost no color and huge. If you're it's it's it's that hard, yet that easy in us. Actually, then you ve got

You at some point along the way. Also I know in in in the work that you did you identify these things, that you call the four horsemen. I think the four horsemen of the apocalypse right right right right. Can you sort of like walk us walk me through those events sure so we found very clear patterns of negative behaviors, negative emotions and how they were expressed that, where the big problem, it wasn't the emotion that was the problem, it was how they were expressed. So let me talk about each one criticism. When you put blame for a problem on a personality flogged, your partner rank, I feeling so an example of that might be something like you're. Just too lazy there is the criticism you're too lazy to clean up the kitchen, so

The emotion is frustration at the kitchen is dirty right. Your blaming a personality flaw lays yeah you, the problem on that personality, flawed, your partner too lazy to clean up the kitchen can identity level thing. It's a characteristic. Ok, yeah, so there's a character trade that you're, seeing in your partner, that's very negative, very bad and all problem come back to that particular flaw in your partner. Kate, you're too selfish. You know yourself thought but sure so. Inconsiderate those kinds of words or criticisms and wings expressed your anger, your frustration, your resentment and so on by just bribing your partner negatively. That way that doesn't work it creates defensiveness

Defensiveness is the second one differ. sickness looks like I did to clean up. The kitchen, so it's kind of righteous victim bright door. Don't yet mad at me. I'm such a good person, so that's one form of defensiveness another form defensiveness counter attack, so you say something like oh yeah, but you didn't pay the bills rights. your attacking back our right, so defensiveness does. Were you not taking any responsibility for the problem at all here- just saying. No, it's not me or no you're bad, I'm good read, write. I read this third is contempt and contempt is v worst

like sulphuric, acid, honour relationship. So contempt is when your also criticising your partner but you're doing it from a place of superiority of more Oh superiority and content two manifests through sir chasm through mockery sometime. through a facial expression like if any of you have teenagers right, and you see that role of the I you know where the the you know left cheek level, lip corner going up. You know like with an eye role that is contempt and contempt, makes the other person feel ashamed, it shames them. It say You know, you're you're, so disgusting to me that I can barely look at you. That's contain and not only does contempt. Creed

demise in the relationship is also been found in our research to rule destroy the immune system of the listener, so the number of times a listener in a relationship hears contempt correlates with how many infectious illnesses they'll have while in the next year. So as a whole. gunnar immunology thing, hamley ass, that's right! So it's really hurting the immune system. The other person is probably secreted cortisol in adrenaline when they hear that contempt, which he roads the immune system, so that the third tenth literally quite literally, causes nickel heart yet to the other person, lady agnes cycle, triple harm and physical harm. You ve got it that's right, so the fourth horsemen is what we call stonewalling and it looks

exactly like it sounds. The other partner turned to a stone wall and doesn't any response whatsoever to what the speaker is. Trying to say now found out because John and bob measured physiology in the lead. We found out that stonewalling, which typically happens more and men than it does in women, is way that that person is trying to go inside and self soothe. What we found is when that Stolen waller was actually really question later on about their experience they felt like they were facing a safer to tiger who was attacking them, and their hearts rates would jump above a hundred beats a minute, even though they were sitting near wildly listening to their partner. They'd be around

Big league escalated they be in fight or flight because they felt with tat and powerless at the same time, so my guess is, while internally they're. Just trying to on for dear life externally it probably presents as something which's disrespect. you know as something which is your niven hearing your shutting down, and it's in your colleagues, what's the problem exactly if these, therefore things at are massively destructive? What can we do about them, but we do We look at the masters. A relationship We see we get additional information. So instead of criticism, austin time The masters are reassuring there under and point your finger now: their partner buried themselves and

Having a very gentle beginning to the conflict discussion where they say, Hey, Jonathan, don't get upset about this, and I love you. Your great guy love this relationship in our and in we're doing fine it's just that every now and then a dinner in europe between your email and that kind of action makes me feel unimportant and I wish when do your email during dinner, so Ass did need. Positive need. Is there you're asking for journalists Of conversation during dinner, instead of you and your email address, disconnected so very gentle started, but even The partner was critical among the masters. They were be communicating. Ok in that makes sense. Sometimes I m kind of selfish. Sometimes I am really thoughtless you're right tell me more about what feel on which we need in their taken responsibility for the problem, unlikely

answer this, where their pushing back and accelerating and on a tick, counterattacking or acting like it is victim they're, saying you're, probably right. There are times when I'm not very good. Listener returns, I'm not very good partner the I want to hear more. I want to know what you need a totally different. action, then defensiveness creates an instead of contempt in the apartment we saw them in very small moments, building respect and affection, saying things like you know You really look sexy this morning. I'm having all these lewd thoughts about you or thanks for getting me the butter acts, were doing the dishes or enjoy the conversation at dinner there doing that and when they do yet physiologically aroused to talking about what they need and what they feel guest the repairing effectively when things are going well well then stone why

it's a whole different kind of configuration were their communicating to their partner in when you're upset the world's stops and I listen defensive I try not to be offensive. so it was kind of what we learned from the relationships and part of our research strategy was to over several unhappy couple. And over sample happy couple, so we had enough power statistically too, scribe what they were doing, and you get all these wonderful recipes, that can be useful. Had therapy from this good report, it's, not just that they are not doing a four horsemen they're doing additional things said actually build their past. A climate of eggs thence understanding shared humor, almost kinds, things that really work to make? standing much more likely, let me add,

little bit more to that. So for both criticism and contempt, you know, typically, there's anger and resentment their sadness and so on. There is typically a need. That's going on that they're trying to express but they're doing, the wrong way. So we saw there was a formula. Actually that John is just I've been here is the formula I feel something I feel up. sat, I feel stressed. I feel angry, I'm worried, I'm threat and I frustrated I feel I feel about what they describe the situation objectively. I feel angry that the It is a mess. I feel feel frustrated that there's an

danton the car. Then they say, here's what I need and when they express there need there are expressing it positively, so they don't say what they don't need, what they do. Want. I don't want you leaving the kitchen amass that a negative need the positive. Ni they flip it on its head. They say I would love it. Would wipe down the counters after dinner. They tell their partner, what their partner can do to shine for them. You see that's a whole nother message doesn't make the person He'll defensive their describing themselves there feeling then situation in the past steve need that can help the partner shine. Thank you both. Thank you.

A baby, whether this is a check from Carvana. I just sold my car to them. I went online and Carvana gave me an offer right away. Then they just picked up the car and gave me this big check that, obviously you could put this towards your next car or we could finally get that jacuzzi or I could start taking tuba lessons or I could quit my job and write my memoir or I can put it towards my next car with Carvana. Sorry, your check, I might sell your car to Carvana visit, Carvana dot com or download the app to get a real offer in second,

the good law project is supported by a master class, so I have been writing books for over a decade, but I've never written a novel, and lately I've been feeling like. I actually have a thriller in me and David Baldacci is one of my favorite writers in that genre, and I was thinking, wouldn't it be so cool if I could literally learn from him, which is why I was so excited to discover, I actually could, and so can you on master class, so with master class. You can learn from the best in so many different fields to become your best anytime anywhere and at your pace. There are over one hundred and eighty classes, and not just writing- is literally everything from the science of better sleep, with Matthew, walker to cooking with Thomas keller, that's thomas keller, gardening, with RON Finley to relational intelligence, with astaire, parallel and just new classes added monthly, and now that David baldacci class, for example. I learned so much like how to find an idea using his writers prism or how to outline that idea and how he builds suspense, using red herrings and plot twists and cliffhangers and what he calls ticking clocks. It was like I got this incredible peek behind the curtain and learned so much to help me start thinking about my own writing and the whole time I kept thinking. How much will it cost to take one on one classes from incredible instructors who are literally the best in the world at what they do? Well master class annual memberships start at only ten dollars a month, and that includes unlimited access to every class. Every instructor. It's really just incredible. I pretty much want to take every class they offer, and I just might so get unlimited access to every class and right now, as a good life project listener, you can get fifteen percent off when you go to master class dot com, slash goodlife, that master class dot com, slash good life for fifteen percent, off an annual membership master class, dot com, slash good life or just click. The link in the show notes

good luck project is supported by indeed ok, so we all know that hiring Hannah gets a bad rat for being pretty challenging because well lot of times it actually is, but maybe all you ve been missing is a hiring partner that can help you rise to the challenge with ease, and that is indeed so, indeed is the hiring platform where you can attract interview and higher. All in one place. Save me you time and unnecessary stress indeed actually streamlines the hiring process with these powerful features like instant that the tool that gives over eighty percent of employers equality candidate. The moment they sponsor job according to induce- u s data, but what I love about, indeed, is that it does the hard work for you showing you candidates, whose reza maize on indeed fit your description immediately. After you post, so you can hire faster, so join more than three million businesses worldwide. That use indeed to hire great talent fast start hiring now, with a seventy five dollars, sponsor job credit to upgrade your job post at indeed, dot com, slash, good life, offer good for a limited time, so claim your seventy five dollar credit now at indeed, dot com, slash good life, indeed, dot com, slush, good life terms and conditions apply need to hire you need indeed, so I

love. The different lenses at julian John bring to the kind of the invitation to cultivate lasting, loving relationships, and next up, we have a chance to learn from new york times, bacilli, author of nine books, longtime buddhist practitioner and teacher and founder of the largest virtual mine from this community in the world. The open heart project she's also, dear friend, susan piper, Susan, has been featured on. Oprah today speaks around the world and leads teachings and retreats buddhism, meditation relationships and the essential practices of a life well lived, and in this moment, in our conversation, we're focusing in on her deeply unusual and wise application of buddhism, food or noble truth in the context of loving partnerships and marriage. So many are hawes and refrains to discover so your susan, as a long time buddhist practitioner and a time wife, I will

have been a buddhist strike twenty two years in a way for like twenty years, basically As of right now, but as one employees practitioner where there are millions of teaching on wisdom and loving kindness and how to be a good person. I just noticed in many p, including myself, all sort of falls apart. When you go home, and look into the eyes of the person you're in a relationship with I like we're buddhist except for right now, except for when you drop all your crap all over the floor, then I'm really. You know it's weird, how your big mind sort of devolves into little petty hissy fits and you know why is that? Why is it actually the hardest to love the person that you'll love is question that have always been interested in and also I wanted to be happy in my own relationship. I wanna be a good partner. I want to be happy in in my own relationship so by

we ve got three phases. You probably have no idea what this is like, where we just don't like each other, where it's like Who are you again, and why am I sitting here talking to you because thing you do irritates me and nothing you say, makes any sense. Besides Suddenly you find yourself in this place where you very distant, each other and one time duncan, my husband and I were in one of those places. For a long time, like months. I mean, I think I wrote the book we thought about. Everything and once we even thought about what time it was I remember that, unlike how do you do tat? How lonely before to make a point of contention So I was really upset and I didn't know what to do now thing that we tried worked and one day I was literally sitting at my desk. Crying thinking

I don't even know how to begin fixing this and as a like, also the way you describe certainly that window that wasn't where you could point to something as head of this is well it's about. This is what about this with its it's almost like it's this now, specific sis They thing that is all right that is so right, there's like everything's, fine, everything's, fine, everything's, fine, there's these little slights little slights pope blow by that wine. You put that on under the rug. You forget about this one explain that went away because explainable away about their small. Do you didn't look at me? Well, you know, I asked you how you were, but you don't ask me how I, when I was in this tiny, many things that don't mean anything a crew had suddenly shit like breaks loose. And it just blows up and then-

because it so weird you just struggle to find some experts, because you did this right that, but in place for me? I don't think that that that there is such explanation. This more like the weird irritation of trying be close to someone else s single day creates this weird tension. I don't does that's alright, you yeah, You know, I think, we're married actually probably similar amounts of time where we're kind of ana twenty one years this year. Actually so her tuitions yeah it it is, it is really interesting how everything changes and everything evolves we're going to get a lot more into that so yeah point where you're just kind of like what Exactly what actually, I'm thinking literally, I dont know where even start, I've tried everything and then this. I heard myself say I hesitate to say I heard a voice because there's nobody there with me but

something inside me said begin at the beginning. At the beginning, our foreign, noble truce. I could you not and to me as a long term practitioner that meant something because The entire buddhist path is built, something called affordable truths, truths which I'm sure you know, and I had never thought to do with relationships life suffering, grasping suffering as possible to stop suffering, there's an eightfold path for doing so review, right intention, and so on, didn't think I could do with my love life, but then, this moment. It's like those teachings like kindly reformed themselves, in my mind too, my relationship, sorrowed them now tell me more just that the basics of bees for normal to assure happily so, when the buddha attained enlightenment, more than twenty five hundred years ago anyway, Acta? Is he now practicing posse, not sure what they call themselves,

it was apparently enlightened. They could tell they said what did you learn What did you see? He said I saw four things: never wine, life is suffering which really easy to interpret as life sucks or life is awful. But upon red investigation. I conclude that that is not what he meant. He meant that ever changes, there's nothing. hold onto an everything we do to create stability or ground this relationship that harm or this degree or this amount of money going to dissolve, and it's a very painful. that's the first novel truth. I is suffering everything, changes. Second noble truth is the cause of suffering, which is called grasping which sickly means not wanting the first noble truth to be true or pretending that it isnt. Well, ok, Maybe that's true for you,

I am going to construct this fortress for myself. That is, you know, inviolate and so far, so you hold on to what you think will make you happy and try to push away the things that you think won't and that's grasping, and that is actually the cause of suffering, not the suffering itself, not the law, not the dissolution painful, though be the. Cause is holding on the No more truth is called the cessation of suffering, which means you can stop now you know the cause you also. the cure. Stop grasping. Course much easier said than done, but it I'll just bath radically. That's the answered, how you stop suffering and then the four truth is called the eightfold path, which is how you actually do that. How do you stop grass me if I can say them all, but right Tension right view right speech, right, livelihood, right action, right effort, right, mindfulness, right, wisdom, all those

aids, have a vast care enough knowledge around them, and you could study one of your whole life. And if you do those things just like the buddha, you got the same trick: bag. You two could attain liberation from suffering, so it's a whole tat right there, so you go from this place of. Thank you for that. Here the foreign languages and take you back in it a place where he had this big awaken, see often from saying ok, so I don't know, which way is up with my loving partner somebody give me an answer. You go back to the beginning. The four noble truths come to you but you take that and then treat this additional overlay. So that become a she'll, take much more relevant to the content of relationships, yeah really help needed look at them this way, so for a noble trees, have a kind of sequencing, there's a fat, a truth, the

the cause of the truth the cessation of the suffering connected to the truth and how to do it? The truth. The cause the could cure and how so, when I took those My marriage. What they look like was the truth relation its are uncomfortable period: You know, if you, of course, we were just talking about the ordinary, irritation or just living with someone. You ve been our relationship for twenty plus years like. Why are you doing that thing again? They said you would never do why we having this argument again Cysts comfort this every day and beyond everyday discomfort. But if you haven't even ever met person like you're going on a blind date. This already discomfort would have failed like me, what if they do like me and so on and so forth, so in every

phase of relationship. There's discomfort, that's the truth that suffers truth. Relationships are uncomfortable and surely the umbrella of the first personal truth of love. You also talk about this thing called the three poisons time at this we also classical put his teaching with these. three poisons and we each have our poison a choice, although we all have all three poisons these are the things we do to throw roadblocks and are in our own way and their call passion sometimes also called grasping aggression and its or numbness So these are three neurotic reactions we have. Two things had upset us rather than opening to them and experiencing them and letting them for us in responding to them and so on. We have thing that were like the pie. in part is need this. I must have it if I don't have it all die. Gettings super attached

nor article, not in the wonderful way to protect the outcomes or prevention of particular outcomes, so that's poison, number one of course, in a relationship. It's really easy to hang on the person's every word. Does this mean you like me? This means it's over. This means its great, so there's this intensity. This grasping of the moment as proof you're either gonna leave me or you're continued to love me. Nobody particular cares for that. Giving our receiving the second listen. Aggression is the things that you, the could hurt you sense of I'm going to destroy that. I'm just going to decimated. I'm gonna get it out of my way IX, nay, whatever it takes. aggression and move against it. Do it some people, that's their default response, the first, Passion and aggression, you can kind of work because you can t see them

one is most insidious: ignorance, the poison of trust, shutting down. Turning turning away avoid- and this is my particular- poison of choice, so I'm familiar with it. It just not happening I wouldn't do something else: That is a very that's the opaque, difficult poison, but we are We do all three of these things in it. It would be painful to think I gotta stop doing those three things, because there's nothing there's, no passion, aggression, ignorance, switch so, if anybody wants to work with the the poisons the best is the only place to start is by just noticing them noticing when you employ them, noticing them when they are employed against you. Turning to learn their texture, personality and get to know them makes it

Easier to work with them- and these are also- then I guess, the poison. You can also translate them ass as common and destructive reactions to having to face them personal to love. Exactly the outcome reactions to fear. Ok, economic thinking, that relationships should be comfortable is what makes them unkempt. Sir, well, of course, I hope everyone's relationship makes them happy people and so on, and I want to be comfortable and happy in all that. But I dont but that's necessarily the job of deep romantic, intimate love. however, when most of us say we're looking for love normally mean that, according to anecdotal observation we're looking for safety. We're looking for someone to make us feel that everything's, ok or some

with whom we can serve turn our back on certain trials and tribulations and make a cocoon and. Ok, those things are great. If there's one thing I learned about love and that I can say with great certainty about love- is that it is not safe. There's no way to make it safe and the minute you try to make it safe. It ceased, to be love and stress to it. Like some sort of a transaction, I will do this and you will do that and so forth and so on, and I don't want Call I think it's called love, so we think well, if only it was comfortable, if only you didn't have this behaviour, if only I could that amount of money or we lived in this house, are you stop jiggling? Your foot every time you talk to me or whatever, whatever crazy things, which you are not doing by the way, whatever crazy thing linking gather your foot right now,

no you're going here, then we would be fine ok work on your problems, your foot jiggling in your money problems work on those things, HOPI solve them all, but that when you do, everything will be cool. That's where the problem, and because the weirdest thing that I ever learned about our relationship and on fixing to tell you what it is right now. This truly crazy, they never stabilize they never stabilize I thought well would be in this relationship will get to know each other these kings will work them out and then at some point it's gonna be fine. At some points it is fine until it is not- and I can't breathe how what whether france are gonna blow through this now question the five year relationship. With someone, I know really well and who knows me really well, I still can't predict I could be really nice and kind and sweet, and so I get

like stare, I can be the complete ass, anxious looking at me in the eyes with the eyes of love, is not doing it doesnt stabilize it never does because it's alive so to get it to stabilize like, let's make it perfected then hold actually what creates discomfort discomforts, not the problem. Thinking it should be comfortable is noble truth of left, no truth in love, member in the broadest sense. It's the cure. Seeing the discomfort together is love, third, now what you Normally we look so the problem. I look at you. I go this year fall for its mouth. I'm really sorry less spell this discomfort by signing blame and want to Sign the blame were like ninety percent on the way to solving the problem

right now. It is clear that problems are: let's have dinner. What do you expect the next climate, It's you possibly we that in their failure dies, but if A great partner, in my mind, is not someone who will play or take blame her. but one who also stop looking at you turned my visuals eternally put shoulder to shoulder, and you look at the problem and you it together, and you see how now we we love each other are now I really love you, but you don't seem to be that interested in me now I dont like each other. Now we seem to be in love again now we just want to be a part. There is these in credible, believes that royal and roll through the relationship We basis a minute to minute basis, certainly yearly basis

to write that together to me. That's the ultimate love for on this right together. and I'm feeling this way about it, you're feeling that way about it, and now it's beautiful now. It's not that to me. That's that's an incredibly loving partner, it's a beautiful thing to do. That's a companion there. take us to the fourth. Fourth, noble truth is the path. There's, a way to work with it, and so eightfold path, although I do apply the eightfold path state is to relationships like what is right view and relationship and so on, but the three this a threefold path: that to me as a meditation teacher. Mirrors. Actually the practice meditation, which has three particular qualities.

Could I will just mention briefly? The first is meditation is precise, your man I know you know this the attention on the object of your meditation, which in most cases, is the breath or could be a mantra or an image, so it's very pointed push your touch on the breath of the mantra wherever it is, and if you straight into anything it's considered thinking, she come back full super precise one pointed. from that. Oddly something interesting happens. You sit there being one pointed allowing yourself to be exactly as you are you like yourself, not like yourself, you're distracted, you're, not distract, it doesn't matter, doesn't matter because to meditate. You'd have to stop thinking, please. If you think that stop thinking about you just sit there with yourself as you are you open. And from this precision the ability to open.

rises, magically meditations, famously associated with insight, sometimes called the practice of insights from this one pointed knows this: Openness of mind happens in sight, arises quite expensive, Quality is called letting go. Because you put your touch on the breath, you let yourself be as you are, then you notice your distracted. That's awesome. Just woke up direction is like. Oh, I didn't go. It's very profound, Because then, you ll go in your in space for a moment to come your object rather mantra. letting go is the lesson of being human, letting go letting go letting go so precise, open letting go, in a relationship do these things mean. so, the precision is the foundation of meditation the foundation of a relationship. In my mind, the very simple it starts with

Good manners, but those are really cheesy. Yeah, it's good manners are profound. It's not just to use this work or not it's at my actually. Thinking of you and what you are experiencing and how I might be kind to you and I noticing you good manners are profound form of bought from us and you actually think about the person. Article four, don't have that very hard to establish the foundation of our relationship, says like this just awareness and a very directed were sadly without an agenda, and to be honest with you say the truth. When you know it and to say it skilfully, not blurting Lee those precise, that's the precise piece of this pact, good manners, truth telling the second quality openness laughing, because I was quite

Can a back when I realized how this came into play, which to imagine that the person prisoner in relationship with of at least equal importance to yourself shocking. Ah, oh you're, there can be open to you I'm going to be open to you and the third step. and the book has more suggestions in this? Is I letting go. Find this very interesting personally as well, about romance ends just as sorry. but intimacy has no end, the ingo pies in relationship is letting go constantly of how you think it ought to have gone to be with What is it? such a way that everything you and counter

four experiences. Detrimental experiences loss, boredom confusion. everything that you encounter together can Actually be used to deepen, intimacy. Which has no end, and that you can commit to for a lifetime. You can commit to romance recalculate to any feeling, but you can commit to deepening intimacy that made me very happy when I realized that, like that, I could do that honestly Honestly say I'll always love you, but I will always try to act lovingly but you were sea or be with you or stay marry you as you go through what you go through and we and I go through things that I can committee, so that too it was her, is very hopeful, so precise open. I go. this all emerged out of your own, seeking I understand what you I was up in your own relationship and trying to figure out

understand this headway, navigate, I being it or not, be in it But had aware this figure how to be ok with this person, in this moment and maybe in another another another another. And while when I got it, the beginning this A whole idea can jumps how to hear you say who play in the context of your own relationship. and, like you said also duncan, has not list. Were you serve you actively and openly saying, okay. I am now sort of engaging in the four noble truths of love and relationship and sharing with him what you were doing and how you are doing it and say come come. Do this with me, or was this just here's a bit of wisdom? Let me on precise and relationship and maybe hope, upham what's happening and not, and if he wants to engage in any of these reciprocally ass, a man, if not that's fine, to what

it is then turn round and unfolded in the context of your relations chair. I appreciate you asking that there's act we a great benefit to being mary, to a non practitioner? What unquote, when you are, practitioner of something in my case buddhism and great value. Is that you can't bullshit them with darpa notions? You cannot unload some sometimes stuff on them and think that it will mean anything. You have to be those things. I didn't say: hey baby I've discovered the foreigner noble of love. Let me tell you what they are instead, I started acting like the discomfort was part of the deal. and looking at it together was loving, and meeting it together, in our intimacy sweet to doing those things. Luckily, he is I'm not saying this to be humble. He,

is a much more loving, naturally than I am He's more relational his more naturally, it turned to the dynamics of a relationship that I am so, you have to like then some of anything- but I It was more the way I showed up. of course, the way you sure has much more impact on the way someone else's up than any charts and graphs that you can unroll about this is this is my theory of relationships which is basically useless. it's useless the theory. The practice is the only thing that matters, so I had to do what a small bag of not trying to minimize it I did I do was just try to do these things in it. Change things for us yeah I love the idea that the four noble choose applied to the context of love and she really say distort start dancing with them. Thank you. Thank you

Good, I project is supported by new, so it's that time of the year, where a lot of oak start to think about their fitness schools getting their bodies moving myself included. I actually recently started playing a lot more attention to how I was fuelling my body and also really came to realize that I was carrying a lot of information in my body and potential disease risk in the form of way. So I wanted and intelligent and sustainable and supportive way to increase my health, lose the waiting inflammation and just feel better and new is just a great solution for this one that I have turned to numerous times over the years to help me accomplish wellness and when it makes sense, wait management goals as well, so new uses science and personal is asia, and so you can not just intelligently manage wait for the long term, but also really learn from their psychology based approach that helps you build better habits and behaviour setter easier to maintain and the best part you decide how new fits into your life, not the other way around, based on a sample of four thousand two hundred. Seventy two numerous ninety eight percent say new, helps change their habits and behaviors for good, and that is because new actually helps you understand the science behind your choices and why you have certain craving. So if you feel like you been lacking the knowledge to make the changes, you wanna see, try out new, so you can start making informed choices and start to really change the way that you think about weight, loss and wait. Management and wellbeing take the first step and sign up for your trial today at noon. Dot- com- that's an oh, oh, am dot com to sign up for your trial today or just click. The link in the show notes

powerful insight from susan, if you're starting to feel that in getting deep, friendships, rolling and cultivating lasting love or powerful also complicated. Well, you're, not alone. So often we focus on those intimate, loving relationships, but if we assume the lens out well, what about friendship? Not superficial colleagues or social media followers that you kind no, but dont really about legitimate, deep enduring vulnerable and honest friendship. Those make life so rich, and yet there not the easiest to create as adults, so

We had an amazing conversation with cat velas. Who is a? U ex designer an author? Can she shares really powerful insights into how we can continue to see new friendships as the pace of life picks up and were all feeling crunched? I love this because cat takes her user experience, design and poles, of the world of technology or products or business and applies it to the quest to create ship and the lens and the insights and the tools are really powerful. You use this term platonic longing than I was fascinating. Tell me more about so this came. We have a lot of the research and interviews I had with people about their friendships, because I guess I got kind of fascinated with the topic of friendship when I started having difficulty with it here and being a

we as personally, would ask other people at work. What is your experience of community like what is your experience of friendship like and over and over? There is The very nuance description that people were giving for what they were experiencing and feeling, and it wasn't always loneliness, even though you know we're in a loneliness epidemic, there's a lot of that in our community in america, but people and always feel lonely cause. They had say coworkers that they got along whether they had a roommate that they got along, whether they were in a relationship but when they work grieving for it. really intimate friendship, feeling safe heard and seen feeling comfortable, sharing anything, whether it's a happy day or angry day and knowing that they would be accepted and and still loved and held by that friend feeling cared about in a time of need like this, was a very, very specific ache. This was an unmet.

Need anna and a hunger for a specific type of connection, it was missing and it was the friendship connection to I call it platonic. So it's different, then you know we know unrequited longing, which is always just given a romantic frame. This you know this winning for a partner lover whatever, and what was here with this longing for, like really really deep friendship, love yeah, I mean tissue use. The word friendship love. I remember a couple of years back doing some research on love and seeing it sort of deconstructed into these four types of love. There is compassionate love, which is the one. This really allows you to feel empathy and very often inspires. Altruism, there was romantic, which is what most of us think about when we talk about love there is at hand love, which is simply justice, really long term dynamic. And then there is this. There was companion, it love, but I dont think me, people think about that companionship, slash nearly friendship as love, but it really is an and it seems like,

you know when I hear platonic longing. What I hear is almost like the precursor We haven't quite accepted the fact that real friendship is about love, rather than just like year, like canada hanging out in doing some things in shared interests and its that deep genuine love. were really longing for, because I think so many of us don't Julie knowledge that that is, in fact, a quality of genuine friendship is a little bit scary thing, yeah. I mean when we look at the culture that were in there's so much emphasis and validation for one Say a romantic love or wanting to have a partnership and there's almost this shame are embarrassment about wanting a best friend or admitting that you don't have the kind of

intimate friendship or close friendships that you really want anything. That's really telling there's something there that I think needs healing in our society and that I sincerely hope we can transform so that people can feel just as comfortable saying like I'm looking for a boyfriend or a girlfriend. Is there saying, like I'm looking for my best, the arm? Looking for a close friend a you know, and to understand that, just as much as we crave that have to come from another, and we have that love to give to another that we at the same is true and friendship and that it should be safe and x the bomb uncomfortable to admit that that is it extremely dreamily valuable source of love in our lives yeah. So great you, I mean it's inching as you also, so this sort is a personal issue this is like. Ok, so, what's happening with me, you're design, mind like human centred, surrogate zooms alight, sounds like zooms allowance as his heart. This conscious about me, let me look really diving into this and suggesting like what's going on

how about some of the things that you discovered and But also the biggest part of your research project reveal that this, in fact, is not just about you, like the statistics on adult friendship, and loneliness in especially in the? U s are kind horrifying right now, yeah, they really really are, and even in the short time that I was working on my book and researching this topic so deeply it was, talking to me how quickly, I would see the stats changed in the process of writing. The bug like I had to go back and like update the stats, because they were getting worse and who has lived. What do you think this is not ok for how many people feel it, though I understand some, how many people feel like they have no one to turn to in a time of need how many people feel like they don't have the number of friends that they want in their life or how many people I haven't, made a new friend and have for many years, and it was really moving and really motivating as well. You know

when I started out that project one of the things I ve learned as a user researcher and someone who just generally curious about people all the time is that whenever persons having a problem there, usually not the only one. You know I don't have a friend who describes like oh, I can never figure out how to like use this website, or this thing always confuses me what's wrong with me and I'm like there's nothing wrong with you, it's hasty with the way that it was designed, and your price not the only one and I've seen this over and over again, and so, as I followed that through If curiosity to what does this mean, what is friendship? Look like four people. What does connection for people and the more I heard people saying over and over that it was not say meat their satisfaction level or exceeding. Who cares that Action level to me it was Like any other usability issue words, I can we think about her design more closeness, help me thinking had a design, better relationship

and friendships and not from the place of lake design like oh, I like manipulating this thing like forcing it to be ass our way, but it's like with intention nasty, that's what I believe design. It is the art of intent, analogy in bringing that purpose and intention to creating a certain desired outcome when work it may be our friendships just happen, but in adulthood, there's weighty matters like distraction than responsibilities and challenges, and if you don't bring the intention is not just gonna magically happen, and so that's, where mercury let me in what I am hoping to drop people into his understanding. Let like there actually is something all that you have here. There is a way to be intentional and how you created, and you bring into your life and what you bring into your friendships. In that way, we're not really taught to do these things in adulthood. You know growing unless you're lucky enough to go to a super progressive flag might do so. Very skilful is something like there's no education about how to navigate these things

like how do you build trust? How do you demonstrate commitment, how'd you get here conflict resolution knowing that lake things are not going to go perfect all the time. You know people will disappoint us. We are going to disappoint people. Some Our communication will be great and other times it's gonna be real crappy, you know. But how do we fix these problems and how do we create real, durable, friendships and relationships is not something that were taught and unless somebody gets his fire to go to therapy or read a bunch of self help. Boxer is lucky enough to have people in their life who are incurred we skilled demonstrators of the skills and can ro model that for them a lot of people to stop you know figuring it out on their own or just feeling confused about like how do we do this, and how do I bring this up in a room for Other people when I dont know how they feel about or will I look like the weird out. You know they say the thing and people like whatever, so

it so important that we make it acceptable to talk about and make it a shame free experience to bring up and to express and they like I'm learning and growing, and I messing up and how. you guys doing, and can we work on this together and left? be okay, I feel like it's it's I so agree and I feel like so often we look at people who seem to just make friends everywhere they go and what kind of like there are the haves and the have nots like there are. The people are just you either know how to do it and everyone gravitate you or you down. It's not a skill, it's not something that you create, whereas in fact it's true at all you? Have this interesting other kind of fascinating concept which can a speech to what we're talking about the notion of hydroponic friendship, with these elements of compatibility and frequency and commitment and proximity,

These are shorter later, some of that some of those skills or some the conditions tell me more about this. So I'm a gardener and for many years, of trained and learn more about plants, its really taken over my metaphors than I used to process and one of the things that was apparently when I was coming across some other research about many hours it takes to make a close friend one of the studies, was saying it takes two hundred hours to make her friend, from a stranger to really feel like a close friend in the study was done with college students who had access to each there are much more nino frequent basis than most typical working adults and housing. wow. I was like how am I gonna share this without anybody feeling completely demotivated like deflated when they hear that cover like where am I gonna get two hundred hours from

and the metaphor they came to my mind- was around hydroponics, because you know we know now that you can grow up and in water without soil. But when that thought was first introduced. You know It was like a laughable people like how on earth could you grow a plant without soil? That's crazy, like you should never say that again, that's bananas. Nobody will ever do it, but of course it's true. works and the way it works is because you give the plant the new trans that it might have otherwise absorbed from the soil is put in the water and then it grows, and you give it lighten. Of course- the things it needs and so metaphor, in my mind, was in the absence of abundant time, which is what most of you like. There are lacking to put into their function. and that two hundred hours can become a freaky and caring for them. In the absence of that much time, what can we do to create a close friendship instead, an repining. Friendship is the notion that if europe on time, you can add that our future

I can't write these nutrients that it needs instead those are experiences of both ability and intimacy and mc shared experiences and the things that are also shown in research to help people bond and feel a sense of belonging with each other. And if you purposely increase those things and danced amount of time. People can get closer quicker and I've seen it happen. In it, as a facilitator. At summer, camp succeeded as a facilitator in adult programmes where, when you're in a container ice space that fake hey, this is our social contract. This is how we gonna be together for this amount of time How will share this is how all accept you know, communicate, etc. People can they get it closer, a lot quicker, and it's always this kind, like time warp like mind, bending experience to be in a situation like that we're talking to somebody and you're like wow after a few hours, you feel like you've known them for ten years, and I've seen this happen at facilitating

He says that our intentional around how we use conversation, unlike what are the things that we talk about an how do we connect and because I'd seen it happen over and over again and facilitated spaces. This is why I believe that is possible in friendship as well people bring that same intention and mutual agreement around how we will contribute to each other in this arena thing, we're doing together and then build a friendship more quickly. Yeah, we ve seen this happen also. I got really fascinated six seven years ago there was a modern love peace in now The new york times had exploded, went massively viral by mandolin, where she discovered these are now noticed. The thirty six questions, so research, arthur errands out of stone working university, wanted to see me cultivate real, intense intimacy between perfect strangers and remarks Your pay time, so he knew me factors these thirty six question,

that are designed in three sets of twelve. That kind, progressively step you into vulnerability and revealing more and then, at the end of it you gaze into each other's eyes, and it was for four minutes, and I was fast. Because the research shared as soon as I read the story that I went on ass, she looked up all the research. I read all the studies and it should at people who had done that in college students, tourist total strangers before felt you're like an hour with this person, that they knew them the or they knew each other more deeply and were had stronger friendships than people they had known for years after an hour with joy. the right conditions and the right prompts, which is the mind blowing. What should I think about it? It's a lot about the power in in purposeful interaction there when I,

as a facilitator. One of the warm up activities we used to do as a micro version of what you're describing they're called milling were people. This walk around space, a new pair them periodically to answer questions at increase in intimacy and self disclosure. From very light to something a little bit more meaningful than something that's kind of close to the heart, and it's like a fifteen minute activity that seriously. In the same way, people would come in a strangers and then like before you even half way to a programme. They feel like they ve made a new friend that they can't wait to hang out with a gun. They want to trade phone numbers, and then I built out from their like this experience called better than small tat cause. I struggle with small talk as an introverted. I don't like it in so creating like an evening experience based on that kind of interaction one of the other experiments I did when I came to the bay area because I was like I'm there sure I'm not the only one who doesn't like small talk. So if that's how you like raise your hand that come in this room and know that here, you are free from that and you will be

provided with, like hundreds of alternatives and a willing set of people who are also bought in two saying like Speed together in a different way like let's have a different kind of conversation and when you create a gathering with that kind of purpose and that mutual intention and a set of tools how bright, so the questions the guides, the invitation magic. and it really can yeah I've seen it over and over again and people self select right. If you're really clear about the intention and yet the quote, rules of the game are rules of engagement are and, and you offer the prompts you hope, by the time people show up to participate in that they ve already opt in to a certain extent to being uncomfortable I'm just saying I don't know, I don't really You know how to do this, and I also, but in a meeting What is even more stunning to me. Is there also kind of saying I'm lonely, because its after matches part of wire showing up, which is

of the hound at a vulnerable to do that before you even know who else is gonna, be there and it's also this active, I think, hope you know of believe. That like even if you feel lonely or even if you ve lived here for two three years and don't feel like you, have you people. Yet your friends, yet its active to say you know I haven't given up yet still gonna put myself out there and I'm still gonna try and I find that incredibly justin firing and really motivating to keep doing the work and to keep creating opportunities for people to step into my. Say their willing to step out there. of the whole part of that, because it is, I think it is theirs, is sent I think, after a while to just dropped, into a sense of utility like this, is just one site to be a grown up like we don't get that level of friendship for that,

level of community that level of chosen family with as adults it just now. with great while it was as a kid? But that's not what being a girl? it is about, but in fact it is in that sense of hope that possibility right that maybe this sustained for life. Back and we created in all its different versions as anew through all the different stages of my own life, dad that is an act of profound hope. I hope it. be be true in my life. I hope that will continue to make deep friendships over the decades continue to sperience new thing was with free, the different kinds of people and to be prized and to be challenged and to be pushed to grow into. Continually evolve. You know, and say you know. The best years of our life are not in the past the best friendships

life don't exist in some like sepia tone photo from the past data like they can still be created today, and they can still be traded tomorrow. The thank you so. I love the way cat approaches, adult friendship as a design problems to be solved and then shares real actionable advice and we're gonna bring this conversation home with pathfinder community, curator and storyteller mia birdsong me taiwan is a founding code. Director of family stories were mere lifted up a new national story about what, makes a good family and, as a vice president of the family independence initiative, she leverage the power of data and stories to illuminate and accelerate the initiative. Low income families take to improve their lives. Her the conversations like the new america serious entering black women as agents of change and her team

Fifteen ted talk, the story we tell about poverty isn't true to a lot of attention to the stories of people who are finding their way into leadership roles despite myriad barriers, while also highlighting the vibrant terrain, all marginalized people who are leading on the ground and solving for tomorrow she is fiercely focused on re, imagining the notion of family as a more spencer and inclusive community a chosen family and invited family and right now we all need people in our lives who feel like family as we move into. next season. So excited. So, let's hear a bit a conversation with birdsong, so people this all the time, unlike what makes a good family the first everyone says, is love, and then Talk about. You know, people who will be there for you. They talk about People who care about you? People who will support you, unlike

You know if you're trying to do something new, like those support you and that no one ever talks about structure No one ever is like what makes a good really good family is that you have a man and a woman who are married and they have biological children. No one has ever said that to me and granted, like I'm not talking to like right wing fundamentalists, but think all of us fundamentally know that the function of family. That is important, not the structure, and the fact is that kind of insular nuclear family is a very recent invention. The idea that two people will provide- What like all of the things that we need from human beings, that we would get it from like one other adults and that two people can read These children is just like face absurd, like that's. Never, in human history ever been the case we ve. Always

extended families always had chosen family, but always had family with people who are like in our tribe, who we weren't necessarily biologically related to we have also if and when I you I'm talking about like thousands of years of human history, we always collect. we raised children, so the the We're family really. Is this like bizarre a troll anomaly, and it is not serving because You know, unless you are the very small percentage of people who has won in person in your life, who can be, you know, and who you are a romantic land, sexually attracted to and then like actually have good sex with, the person who you can be roommates wealth and manage a household with and combing layer finances and- travel with an beer best friend and your confidant, and then, if you have kids raise kids with like that is many roles for

people to fill to bofill for each other, so No. What I see is that a lot of folks who are trying to do that are deeply unhappy because they're not actually getting their needs met, and they don't could not- and this is particularly true of straight men and they don't really recognize that there are other ways for them to get some of those needs matt. You know, like I'm, a terrible roommates, like my you know my husband. I have lived together for like twenty years, but in some other configuration of our marriage and in a world where housing was not so incredibly expensive like it might be better for us to, like you, know, live in a duplex athens. I could make my mess upstairs and he could keep his note. Part neat downstairs, so part of is about re imagining, but part of his also recognising that we actually to do something else. So I think of ever is both kind of understanding and looking to like our end. A straw history,

seeing how we know our people did thing. Before and then re imagining those structures and ways of being in relationship with each other for a modern, right so for what actually fits our lives yes, it's more, it's really more of that. Questioning of why why we're doing it? The way were doing it when we have so much history of doing differently and- and very arguably, spiriting our lives. they different ways- levels better, go I mean it's interesting because also there's theirs is expected. that said, I think now that you know if you shooting, coach should be able to get everything you need from this nuclear family, and you don't. you know, you're feeling, lonely, you're, feeling stress your feeling overwhelmed all the different things that nearly pretty much everyone has to feel at some point Their journey in this relate small tight family. It

don't feel there is. Then you judge yourself a failure, exact and then you layer on top of that, the sense of shame wishes. things worse and then people end up being silent about it right. They don't talk about it. They don't have the conversations they need to with their partner about like what they can actually do for each other and never mind if you're, not. If you dont have a partner right, then what he supposed to do there all his ways in which our our culture the design of, like you know, houses and cars and certainly also like, that's that exist and are, culture, are really created for and oriented toward the insular nuclear family and there are healthy People in america who are happy to dislike. Navigate systems that weren't made for us and who are having to kind of exist the culture that said that their failure, right that says, there's something wrong with them.

And not only is it saying that, but of but lots of folks also internalized that and assume that there's something wrong with them or feel it. Their life is incomplete because they dont have a partner or they are no use to, and now they doubt and I that is like they're. So many ways- and I mean one of the stories in my book thy love- is my friend Diana who This does not have a partner that does not have a romantic sexual partner, but like her and her friend, cynthia are each other's plus one. They talk. Bout retirement, they text each other every day they I have made this friendship that they have fill the role that many people look to a romantic and sexual partner for, and they both you note date, people and how you know, have had other relationships remained. sexual relationships, but this french between them, as is primary, and I love that I just love the model of that

and largely like. So much so many the stories that I tell the book and the book, as you know mostly stories. It's mostly the stories that I I found that helped me understand and answer the questions that I had about. Creating farming community they're just they're just these these models that they're not like blueprints for for us right, they're, not like oh, like this, is what this person did, I'm going to go and replicate it, but it really is about having enough examples that allow us to expand our understanding of what is possible and then we can kind of get into our own. You know no inquiry about. What is it that I actually want in my life right? The things that I learned from a bunch of the folks who I talk to about friendship was about kind of it, getting rid of the the very narrow confines of how we think about what a friendship is and what it's for and actually thinking about in other people who are like, I think about the people I consider close friends and like

be in conversation with them about like what is the culture of our friendship like what are the expectations we have of each other? What can we count on it? therefore, what the boundaries that we have and that's expanded. The relationships? I haven't those people into places that do not into you. No kind of the deal. African box. What we say a friend is- and I love the depth of those relationships, I love the kind of intimacy that that's created between me and folks, both because, like were actually having conversations about our relationship, but also, because we realise, like oh here's, a here's, a but we want from this this relationship. That is not that we wouldn't have covered if we hadn't conversation about like how do we be friends had a we be friends, the amazing you're really blurring the line in our so instead of yeah, ok, here's the box or family. Here's the box or friends hears about your acquaintance as it should Ok, let's throw up against the wall and let's fundamentally asked the question: what do I

want and need from the relationships in my life. What am I open to giving and then how do I? How do I? Just instructed in away from like the the universe of people who were in my orbit exactly It is good that gives that, and that gives them what they need and whether we call that family, whether we call her friends who really cares at that point, but requires, I mean it really requires, especially in a world today where you ve got this. You got me separations right. You ve got a lot of people who go there. If no family route, because maybe they feel it's right for them, and very often that involves pulling. From all of those people who not long before really did serve a lot of those roles. And now the become more isolated? They start to expect they get everything from their traditional family and then the friends that are moving away from feeling. Okay. So now I am no longer in the year I am no longer part of. family, but also no longer a part of the

We are a community of people who decided that this is the model of of what family website for them in that guy, and now you feel like an end. Society has, as you mentioned, nearly kind of labels them to a certain extent as well doing it right because you're not there yet and just it's more devise, though I mean talk about really needing to have intentional, open, comrade and making this a very intelligent and process at me this one, and just wait for it to happen and hope it does know? There's a there's a I mean you're you're, essentially choosing to counter our culture and doing that requires vigilance and tending you know. So, I'm you know, I'm a cis woman and I'm married to a cis man like I. I am in a a nuclear family right, and I think the the challenge that I, that I realized in doing this work, that I is that I needed to be vigilant right. My husband and I need to be vigilant about making sure that we're not close. Ourselves off and that's partition,

really true right now, because we're all sheltering in place- and I am just in this house with these three other people- I've really had to creep. a regular practice of making sure that I'm in Having conversations with my loved ones about our relationships, hacking and with people. I am you know I am receiving when people check in with me, You know one of those that one of the most powerful threads throughout the whole book is about how allergic we are to asking for help and accepting help and how powerful it is. When we get over that the things that- and this has been emphasised for me now that like covert, happening is that the off support to folks. I found

this is so much more powerful for them when it specific so instead of just people, they know saying like. Let me know if you need anything. I have been trying to end myself into people's lives right crossing, miss this like boundary that we think of in our friendships and trusting the intuition. I have about what I know about people's experience and who they are offering something that I actually think could be helpful. So saying specifically, you know I know you ve been doing a lot of caretaking recently. Can I make like extra what I? can for dinner and bring it to. You posed to saying. Let me know if you need anything and then I think the same has been true for me. Like I've. Had you know, I have a friend who, in the beginning of covert she would asked me in a couple of other people and say: hey, I'm going to the grocery store d need anything and I my kind of risk this tends to saying. Yes, when I knew that, like I'm, salt right- and if you like, I can't I can't I can't

cook without salt. So if I get this one thing that that means I can like weight to go the grocery store for another week, like that actually helpful for me, so I have said. Yes, every time she has texted, because there's always in one or two things that I could use that would just bring to my wife ass time actually text at her, and I was like hey next time. We go where you get us coffee, because I knew wherein we have coffee in a minute and I totally go to the store just to get coffee, but who wants to do in especially right now wants to do that so there's a way in which kind of creating that that cycle of of support, both giving in receiving support lets us each other more deeply and creates intimacy, and I feel so much more held and so much less isolated because of the vienna. Past couple of months. The way in which I feel like me in the people I m in community with have accepted

port from each other and have offered support to each other and, like it's one of the things that I see that I'm excited to take, side of you know covered is just like allowing they being vulnerable enough right to allow people to know me in that way and to be in my life in that way and to encourage, their people in my life to do the same here in its I mean being vulnerable and allow yourself to be seen in a robust, eight emits a mild thing like unless deepened, relationships. I mean what are the things how she didn't relationship it. It is generally vulnerability coupled with progressive. revelation and There has to happen both ways that I often wonder if the reason that sir few of us are comfortable doing that. I am right in my hand, because I'm not the easiest version. That way is that There's something in as its wired to keep score

and there's something in as that kind of says. Well, I dont want to feel behold in You know I don't want had their sort of liking, electors it the somewhere, and there is a cosmic gently, credit and debit sheet that's being kept, and if it's not, in balance on a regular basis, are abolished. Gonna feel like any two gave our needs a guy, I think that's white supremacy and gathered up, ringlets, wired deeply, and it's something that we've learned that one hundred percent agree one hundred percent agree, but it, but I feel like it is a learned, behavior outlawed of us it's so destructive- and it's almost like once you have a group of people who just start doing it in The agreement is, nobody keep score yeah it's it's like. We have experienced in windows in my life and it sort of like everything dissolved and it becomes just really beautiful will theirs. There's this generosity and in abundance that exists when you do that right and part of

I think for me, like, when part of what I would I work through my head when I'm offered support. Is that I'm recognizing that it doesn't just do something. For me, it does something for the person whose offering the support- and I know that, because I know what it feels like when I am able to offer support and it's not because I'm like yes now, we have another like check and my column of what they owe me and it's not about you know, earning points my gods. It really is about feeling like I am in this generative cycle, giving in receiving that is part of that. Like deepens my sense of my own humanity and deep my sense of being part of you have been part like community, and I know how good that feels for me. So partly with this friend of mine who text me about the girl she's. Unlike oh, like me saying yes is if that I can give her like being

honourable, and allowing her to insert herself in my life. That way is a gift that I can give her and let me not interrupt the cycle, and like mess it up right by not providing her with that gift, so it is an exchange rate. and I think it important for us to recognise it as that, but it's about. Like you know, it's not about like, I'm gonna, do this thing and then they're they're gonna tell me because I feel like in some way is like. I mean I'm done anything thing for them: I've let for sometimes I leave eggs on the porch, because we have chickens and there's like too many eggs, but, like most of you too, up stuff, often like that's it. I also know that, like I'm doing similar things for other people, so it's not even about just like my relationship with her and the kind of like back and forth between us, but actually, though, this much part of a much kind of grandeur, Michael of giving and receiving that were both part of dad now. I love it and one of the things that also comes up in the context of that, I think, is something that you speak to which

This idea of yeah and there are moments also when you want to have boundaries, But at the same time you can negotiate ways to interact with people. Wanna know one of the stories that that you tell those really fascinating. Waiter approach is you talk a lot about also family around food and kitchens and friendships and how that enables all such a different things and How, on the one hand, it's really nice too, sometimes just how people draw buying granted right now, like were not really doing that, but we can emerge from it. A bullet and then there are other times where you would feel like really intruded on somebody just one by and we certainly live in a culture now, where nobody, I know in new york city, does that email yeah. If somebody just knocked on my door, even if it was a friend of mine and said, okay, hey, let's hang out it'd, be awkward the guy, the awkward I'd be kind of annoy, unlike what not that I don't want to see them israelite theirs. It there's a contacts and the way that you handled saying. Ok,

how I make this happen away, were we all feel good? Uncomfortable item was really fascinating. yeah, so A friend of mine talked about the fact that she would love for people to drop by, and I was like both like you That would be great and also like, oh hell, no, like I don't want people to showing up at my doorstep, like I because like if I don't want to see them, that would just feel I would be annoyed, like you said, I was like I just need to create a container for, like a window and which, like people, are free to drop eyes. I created this thing called drop by dinner and, I emailed like twenty people- and it had a set of guidelines and the first was you know I don't know from remember all them but like basically like Am I'm like that cleaning my house, I'm not preparing you a meal come over bring some. To add to you, know the the nourishment that we're gonna have. I will give you however, it is that I'm gonna give my own children, but I'm not it's not me, I'm a hosting writes about was

of the thing I like you dont, have to rsvp you, and just show up, you can tell me you're going to show up and show up. You can tell me you're going to show up and then not show up and not explain it to me. It's really like we're not trying to kind of create a rep any kind of like party situation I also made it clear that they could not bring anybody with them unless it was their kids, because I didn't want child care to prevent people from showing up. But I also do not want extend this experience to people like that. I did actually feel comfortable coming by my house when the mass and then I was also like. Don't leave me ass messier than you. Found his what's like clean the dishes. Even if I tell you not do so, I sent it out to a handful of people and I think fifteen people showed up at the first one and it was spectacular. I was wearing my pajamas, I dont think I had taken a shower that day, Everybody, you know, brought food some people

I had been to my house multiple times, so they knew where everything was, and some people had never been there before and just got support from other people and figuring out how to feed themselves and get what they needed. And I would just do it every few months and I would you know, give people, maybe a day's notice or a week's notice, and sometimes three people would show up. Sometimes fifteen people would show up and having my committee, did he collide in that way, right, like the various parts of my community collide, was fantastic. The conversations that we had were always really beautiful and I loved digital experience of having my loved ones in my home, I love that I think it's it's I have a feeling that even us being so ice later right now, so many layers of fear and possibility and chained generation being in the air that, as we emerge from this space, that people, going to start to become more open to things like this, and I think I love the fact that your sorted out there right now

planting the sea to re, imagine, models and ways to gather and wasted, define, friendship and family as we emerge from this sort of cocoon that were in to a certain extent, we can but I really think about this more intensely. How do we want to step back into our relationship in a loud and re, magnet and recreated? Thank you. Thank you well. I hope you enjoyed this relationship deep dive and, if you loved this episode be sure to share it around and listen to the full length conversations with julie of John gottman, susan piper cat fellows and me a birdsong all

Episodes are linked in the show notes below and even if you don't listen now be sure to click and download it. So it's ready to play when you're on the girl and, of course, if you have already done so, be sure to follow a good life project in your favorite. Listening up, so you'll never miss in episode and then share the good life project, love with friends, because when ideas become conversations that lead to action That's one real change takes hold see you next time.