Would it surprise you to learn that the depth and quality of your relationships is the single biggest determinant of a life well-lived? Well, that’s what one of the longest-running studies on human flourishing, the Grant study, showed. But, chances are, you don’t need data to believe that. You just need to look at your life, and the lives of those around you. Having genuinely open, kind, honest, vulnerable, loving relationships make simply makes life better. And, over the years, we’ve had the opportunity to sit down with many of the leading voices, researchers, and thought-leaders on the topic. To ask them about their experience, insights, awakenings, and strategies. And, today, we’re sharing a powerful relationship roundup with you.
We’ll hear about a reimagining of family as a more expansive chosen family of friends and community with Mia Birdsong. We’ll explore how Buddhism’s four noble truths can both guide and transform long-term, loving partnerships with Susan Piver. We’ll discover both the magic and the challenge of creating new true friendships as adults and explore ways to invite more of them into our lives with Kat Vellos. And, we’re kicking things off with Julie and John Gottman, married and collaborating professionally for decades as the founders of the legendary Gottman Institute, often known as the Love Lab that brings together powerful academic research with tens of thousands of hours of practical application. Their science-meets-on-the-gound reality will completely open your mind and give you powerful new ideas and tools to work with. So, let’s dive in.
You can find Julie & John Gottman at:
Website : https://www.gottman.com/
Instagram : https://www.instagram.com/gottmaninstitute/
Small Things Often podcast : https://pod.link/1498172564
You can find Susan Piver at:
Website : https://susanpiver.com/
Instagram : https://www.instagram.com/susan.piver/
You can find Kat Vellos at:
Website : https://weshouldgettogether.com/
Instagram : https://www.instagram.com/katvellos_author/
You can find Mia Birdsong at:
Website : http://www.miabirdsong.com/
Instagram : https://www.instagram.com/miabirdsong/
More Than Enough podcast : https://pod.link/1494165763
If you LOVED this episode:
You’ll also love the full-length conversations we had with
Julie & John Gottman : https://tinyurl.com/GLP-Gottmans
Susan Piver : https://tinyurl.com/GLP-Piver
Kat Vellos : https://tinyurl.com/GLP-Vellos
Mia Birdsong : https://tinyurl.com/GLP-Mia-Birdsong
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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
The so. Would it surprise you to learn that the depth and quality of your relationships is the single biggest determinant of a life? Well lived? Well, that's what one of the longest running studies on human flourishing the grant study showed. But chance
are you
need data timber wave that you just need to look at your life and the life of those around you, especially in our recent experience of life. Having genuinely open com
and honest vulnerable, loving relationships simply makes life better, and over the years we have had the opportunity to sit down with many of the leading voices, researchers and thought leaders on this topic to asked them about their
experience there, insights, awakenings and strategies, and today we are sharing a powerful relationship round up with you. So will hear about a re, imagining a family as more expansive chosen, family, friends and community with me a birdsong and will explore how buddhism for noble truth can both guide and transform long term. Loving partnerships will discuss
both the magic and the challenge of creating new, true friendships as adults and explore ways to invite more of them into our lives with cat villas and we're taking things off with
julie and John gottman married and collaborating professionally for decades as
founders of the legendary gottman institute, which is often known as the love lab that brings together a powerful academic research and tens of thousands of ours of practical application. Their science meets on the ground. Reality will completely open your mind and give you a powerful new set of ideas and tools to work with. So, let's dive now opening up with julie and John gottman.
Met yet the global private aviation leader is known for personalizing every detail of your travels because net, yet standard is not just to meet their definition of perfection. It's to exceed yours, discover more at net jets, dot com.
so the ten percent happier podcast has one guiding philosophy. Happiness is a skill that you can learn. So why not embrace it? It's hosted by dan Harris a journalist who had a panic attack on national television and then send out on this journey of transformation and he's now on a quest to help. Others also achieve peace and happiness, and every week Dan taught you top scientists meditation teachers. Even the odd celebrity in wide ranging conversations at explore topic, psych productivity, anxiety and lightness, psychedelic and relationships. The interviews cover everyone from bernay brown to cerebral less to sam Harrison more. I love learning from his questions and experiences and incredible guess think of listening to ten percent happier as a work out. For your mind, fine ten percent happier where every listen to pot casts.
Good law project is supported by the economists. So the world seems to be moving faster than ever: climate economics, politics, ai and culture. Wherever you look, events are unfolding at a rapid pace and it's hard to stay on top of it, which is why I love that now, for the first time, you can get a one month, free trial of the economist, so you won't miss a thing I have literally been reading the economist I want to say for decades. I love that it covers more than just economics and finances you'll find coverage on topics from politics to science, to technology, even arts and the environment. The economist offers this global perspective with really incredible clarity and deeper analysis, so you can dive into specific issues or catch up on current events, I was just checking out this article on the changing landscape of tech, jobs for recent computer science grads and how everything is changing so fast. It was a real eye opener and with the economists free trial, you'll get access to in depth independent coverage of world events through podcasts, webinars and expert analysis. As soon as you sign up, if you're interested in subjects like this go to economist dot com, slash project for full access to the topics that matter to you, an original analysis as events unfold, that's economist, dot, com, slash project or just click. The link in the show notes to start your one month, free trial with the economists today, because the world won't wait in a great
they ship. Even
a conflict,
the ratio of positive emotions to negative emotions was five to one
five times as much positivity as
italy, even when their conflicting about something
a great relationship was
thing. I'd never experienced before I had met Juliet, but let's make that one perfectly
clear
What you tell me, what you mean by positivity negativity? There were all positive emotions like entered
then one another amusement share?
if empathy understanding, kindness, compassion, comic,
a partner down reassuring your part in all kinds of things that people due to being
the one another kindness and generosity, all those positive emotions, glinting joy and
ecstasy, and things like that, which we really observe in a laboratory and all the negative emotions like hostility and belligerence, domineering and anger, and this
point men, the sadness and heard feelings and all those negative things and those come
and conflict as well. But an
happy relationships, it's like
Negativity is like one of those whirlpools just spiral down, and people
and dig out of it there caught in this trap, this whirlpool of negativity.
But in good relationships. They have so much of a cushion of positive emotion that they
easily escape when they continued hits. They can act.
It is well to enter and in on him.
Relationships I can't exit they can enter, but they get sucked into it. Can't you
So that was a real surprise in a way. Those findings are really very simple
describing the differences between happy and unhappy marriage so
the things that we need: five of these positive
experiences for every.
The negative experience to reach
like whether our we describe healthy what
certainly during conflict. Ok during non conflict, its twenty positive
to one negative right
What's the, how do you define conflict versus non conflict? Conflict is
you're trying to solve a problem, and you have a disagreement. Ok, that's what we mean by
It's like so you're discussing a problem. You have different points of view about it and
you're trying to figure out how to solve it. That's how we're defining conflict so
during that phase-
discussion the good couples, five
to one positive to one naked
and when you're just going about you, know your everyday interaction, you're cooking in the kitchen you're, you know just having
and with the kurds, you're hanging out together, that's one a positive to one negative there.
that makes sense to me- and I guess that also introduces discounts
from
but that you do of bids, tell me more
so
John and I created on the university of washington campus, an apartment plan and in this little apartment we created a broom that
very much that could be an be so people stayed there
Twenty four hours they were in bringing
freeze- and they would make me off- there was a tb and so on, and we watched them for it.
Twenty four for hours, so is just like a being be, except that we had three cameras bolted to the walls. We took their urine. We took their blood, you know, but other than that it was a perfectly and be experience right and what we noticed in all
all of the tape we were watching was there at people move,
make these little tiny bids for connection so
First, you know we couldn't figure out. Why were
differences between the successful couples and the ones who didn't do well, because we were following these couples, four years after they came to the apartment lamb,
and finally, John in a colleague of his figured out that there were these little bits for connection meaning you might just call your partners name and see if your
Partner said yeah, that's a
in response to a bid for connection or one person would look out the window, because there was a beautiful view outside and might say, wow look at that fantastic boat going by and the
person could do
of three things? They could either turn against, which look like
stop interrupting I'm trying to read, or they could turn away meaning.
nothing there been no response whatsoever or they could turned forwards and
We just look like this hall while there.
All too and made a huge difference. We found that when we followed these couples, the successful couples
turned towards each other's bids for connection eighty six percent of the time, a
It sets a lot the decision.
stress couples who ended up a really unhappy her divorcing turn
towards each other. Only thirty, three percent of the time see that difference. Fifty three percent difference
and whether they turned towards or turned away or against, so we saw them.
This was an incredibly powerful factor in what made relationship successful or disastrous
How much of
much of the result of success versus failure was due to
the turning towards the act of turning towards.
First is the response
two.
Like the added like to me, my I guess my curiosity is how much of it was
about simply noticing that there was a bit being offered
acknowledging it very
is the nature of the response to the bed and are like he was at something I was even deconstruct about.
Knowing that usually I mean basically, the unit was the
attempt to connect and the response to it, so it's a kind of interact rather than but
true, interestingly enough, that in couples where there wasn't much turning toward
It was also not pray. Much bidding.
he was an really connect as well
but of course you know all of these findings.
He's a correlation of finding, so we don't know what's causing. Is it too happy relationship is causing us? So we
to do experiments in iter,
when you increase them
of turning toward noticing bids, which is
put part of that and the way
This too really meet the need, that's being expressed, sometimes
verbal expressed, then
a lot of other good stuff increases so weak,
really measure and assess
whether these things or causally related, or
correlations of being in a happy relationship.
it turns out that these things really are skills. If you bill
the skills, your change, the nature of the relationship? That's what julian
discovered when we first started working together,
from her really
the huge amount of experience doing therapy with the most distress people.
Experience measuring things put that to you
and we created a theory with ip
This is about causal connection.
And them in time
three years of working together. We can test those out
Firstly were wrong,
The data were informing both of us, but it
the combination of her clinical experience. Her said
the fur
well in pain.
And my training and measurement and mathematical models of relation
absence. Statistics combined
together.
Environmentally, they can create a theory that could help people
it's like the idea. The super skill is out of observation. The super skill of coding, certainly together, right rates. This
your magical yeah. Let me also point out that, because we studied overthrow,
thousand couples. What we could do is look
successful. Couples see
exactly what they were doing, because there were really very clear patterns about what they were doing to make their relationship successful. Then we could create exercises and interventions to help those who are distressed to do the same things in their relationships that the successful couples were doing. So we very carefully analyzed what were they doing created
exercises tested those exercises to see if they actually worked and sure enough they did and then
We began teaching nos two couples who came to our workshops, who came to therapy there
so it's almost like if Jonathan
described the when you
it is in in the problematic relationships it there were just
very low level of bids happening in the first place and
you do. There
the research to figure out causation versus correlation. Then you can start to understand. Maybe this is actually more of a learned, helplessness that you just give up right and then, if you can see that you reverse it
if people are learning helplessness while then may
They can also re, learn exactly to be constructive. Together, yeah you to flee, beautifully poet, Jonathan
we were really trying to do- is create the safety for those couples to actually make more bids for connection so that they could slowly build trust and teaching the other partner. How to
spawned to those bids. It didn't take alone
it was just a small little time,
response like yeah or aha, that's all it took and thickets
in the whole course of their relationship over time
which seems so almost no color and huge. If you're it's it's it's that hard, yet that easy in us. Actually, then you ve got
You at some point along the way. Also I know in in in the work that you did you identify these things, that you call the four horsemen. I think the four horsemen of the apocalypse right right right right. Can you sort of like walk us walk me through those events sure so we found very clear patterns of negative behaviors, negative emotions and how they
were expressed that, where the big problem, it wasn't the emotion that was the problem, it was how they were expressed. So let me talk about each one criticism.
When you put
blame for a problem on a personality flogged, your partner rank,
I feeling so an example of that might be something like you're. Just too lazy there is the criticism you're too lazy to clean up the kitchen, so
The emotion is frustration at the kitchen is dirty right. Your blaming a personality flaw lays
yeah
you, the problem on that personality, flawed, your partner
too lazy to clean up the kitchen
can identity level thing. It's a characteristic.
Ok, yeah, so there's a character trade that you're, seeing in your partner, that's very negative, very bad and all problem
come back to that particular flaw in your partner.
Kate, you're too selfish. You know yourself thought but sure so. Inconsiderate
those kinds of words or criticisms and wings
expressed your anger, your frustration, your resentment and so on by just
bribing your partner negatively. That way that doesn't work it creates defensiveness
Defensiveness is the second one differ.
sickness looks like I did to clean up.
The kitchen, so it's kind of righteous victim bright door. Don't
yet mad at me. I'm such a good person, so
that's one form of defensiveness another form
defensiveness counter attack, so you say something like oh yeah, but you didn't pay the bills rights.
your attacking back our right, so defensiveness does.
Were you not taking any responsibility for the problem at all here- just
saying. No, it's not me or
no you're bad, I'm good read, write. I read this
third is contempt and contempt is v
worst
like sulphuric, acid, honour relationship. So contempt is when your also criticising your partner but you're doing it from a place of superiority of more
Oh superiority and content
two manifests through sir
chasm through mockery sometime.
through a facial expression like if any of you have teenagers right, and you see that role of the I you know
where the the you know left cheek level,
lip corner going up. You know like
with an eye role that is contempt and contempt, makes the other person feel
ashamed, it shames them. It say
You know, you're you're, so disgusting to me that I can barely look at you. That's contain
and not only does contempt. Creed
demise in the relationship is also been found in our research to rule
destroy the immune system of the listener,
so the number of times a listener in a relationship hears contempt correlates with how many infectious illnesses they'll have while in the next year. So as a whole.
gunnar immunology thing, hamley ass, that's right! So it's really hurting the immune system. The other person is probably secreted cortisol in adrenaline when they hear that contempt, which he roads the immune system, so that the third
tenth literally quite literally, causes
nickel heart yet to the other person, lady agnes cycle,
triple harm and physical harm. You ve got it that's right, so the fourth horsemen is what we call stonewalling and it looks
exactly like it sounds. The other partner turned
to a stone wall and doesn't
any response whatsoever to what the speaker is.
Trying to say now
found out because John and bob measured physiology in the lead.
We found out that stonewalling, which typically happens more and men than it does in women, is
way that that person is trying to go inside and self soothe. What
we found is when that
Stolen waller was actually really
question later on about their experience they felt like they were facing a safer to tiger who was attacking them, and their hearts rates would jump above a hundred beats a minute, even though they were sitting near wildly listening to their partner. They'd be around
Big league escalated they be in fight or flight because they felt
with tat and
powerless at the same time, so
my guess is, while
internally they're. Just trying to
on for dear life
externally it probably presents as something which's disrespect.
you know as something which is your niven hearing your shutting down, and it's in your colleagues,
what's the problem exactly if these,
therefore
things at are massively destructive? What can we do about them, but we do
We look at the masters. A relationship
We see we get additional information. So
instead of criticism, austin time
The masters are reassuring there
under and point
your finger now: their partner buried themselves and
Having a very gentle beginning to the conflict discussion where they say,
Hey, Jonathan, don't get upset about this, and I love you. Your great guy love this relationship in our and in we're doing fine
it's just that every now and then a dinner in europe between your email and that kind of action
makes me feel unimportant and I wish
when do your email during dinner,
so Ass did need.
Positive need. Is there
you're asking for journalists
Of conversation during dinner, instead of you and your email address,
disconnected
so very gentle started, but even
The partner was critical among the masters. They were
be communicating. Ok in that makes sense. Sometimes I m kind of selfish. Sometimes I am really thoughtless you're right
tell me more about what
feel on which we need in their taken
responsibility for the problem, unlikely
answer this, where their pushing back and accelerating and on a tick, counterattacking or acting like it is
victim they're, saying
you're, probably right. There are times when I'm not very good. Listener returns, I'm not very good partner
the I want to hear more.
I want to know what you need a totally different.
action, then defensiveness creates an
instead of contempt in the apartment
we saw them in very small moments, building respect and affection, saying things like you know
You really look sexy this morning. I'm having all these lewd thoughts about you or
thanks for getting me the butter
acts, were doing the dishes or enjoy the conversation at dinner there doing that
and when they do yet physiologically aroused to talking about what they need and what they feel guest
the repairing effectively when things are going well
well then stone why
it's a whole different kind of configuration were their communicating to their partner in
when you're upset the world's stops
and I listen
defensive I try not to be offensive.
so it was kind of what we learned from the
relationships and part of our research strategy was to over several unhappy couple.
And over sample happy couple, so we had enough power statistically too,
scribe what they were doing,
and you get all these wonderful recipes,
that can be useful. Had therapy from this good report,
it's, not just that they are not doing a four horsemen
they're doing additional things said actually build their past.
A climate of eggs
thence understanding
shared humor, almost kinds,
things that really work to make?
standing much more likely, let me add,
little bit more to that. So for both criticism and contempt, you know, typically,
there's anger and resentment their sadness
and so on. There is typically a need. That's going on
that they're trying to express but they're doing,
the wrong way. So we saw there was a formula. Actually that John is just
I've been here is the formula I feel something I feel up.
sat, I feel stressed. I feel angry, I'm worried, I'm threat
and I frustrated I feel I feel about what
they describe the situation objectively. I feel angry that the
It is a mess. I feel
feel frustrated that there's an
danton the car.
Then they say,
here's what I need and when they express
there need there are expressing it
positively, so they don't say what they don't need, what they do.
Want. I don't want you leaving the kitchen amass that a negative need the positive.
Ni they flip it on its head. They say I would love it.
Would wipe down the counters after dinner. They tell
their partner, what their partner can do to shine for them. You see
that's a whole nother message doesn't make the person
He'll defensive their describing themselves there feeling then
situation in the past
steve need that can help the partner shine. Thank you both. Thank you.
A baby,
whether this is a check from Carvana. I just sold my car to them. I went online and Carvana gave me an offer right away. Then they just picked up the car and gave me this big check that, obviously you could put this towards your next car or we could finally get that jacuzzi or I could start taking tuba lessons or I could quit my job and write my memoir or I can put it towards my next car with Carvana. Sorry, your check, I might sell your car to Carvana visit, Carvana dot com or download the app to get a real offer in second,
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love. The different lenses at julian John bring to the kind of the invitation to cultivate lasting, loving relationships, and next up, we have a chance to learn from new york times, bacilli, author of nine books, longtime buddhist practitioner and teacher and founder of the largest virtual mine from this community in the world. The open heart
project she's also,
dear friend, susan piper, Susan,
has been featured on. Oprah today speaks around the world and leads teachings and retreats buddhism, meditation relationships and the essential practices of a life well lived, and in this moment, in our conversation, we're focusing in on her deeply unusual and wise application of buddhism, food
or noble truth in the context of loving partnerships and marriage. So many are hawes and refrains to discover so your susan,
as a long time buddhist practitioner and a time wife, I will
have been a buddhist strike twenty two years in a way for like twenty years, basically
As of right now, but as one
employees practitioner where there are millions of teaching on wisdom and loving kindness and how to be a good person. I just noticed in many p,
including myself,
all sort of falls apart. When you go home,
and look into the eyes of the person you're in a relationship with
I like we're buddhist except for right now, except for when you drop all your crap all over the floor, then I'm really. You know it's weird, how your big mind sort of devolves into little petty hissy fits
and you know why is that? Why is it actually the hardest to love
the person that you'll love is
question that have always been interested in and also I wanted to be happy in my own relationship. I wanna be a good partner.
I want to be happy in in my own relationship so by
we ve got three phases. You probably have no idea what this is like, where
we just don't like each other, where it's like
Who are you again, and why am I sitting here talking to you because
thing you do irritates me and nothing you say, makes any sense. Besides
Suddenly you find yourself in this place where you very distant,
each other
and one time duncan, my husband and I were in one of those places.
For a long time, like months.
I mean, I think I wrote the book we thought about. Everything
and once we even thought about what time it was
I remember that, unlike how do you do tat? How lonely before to make
a point of contention
So I was really upset and I didn't know what to do now
thing that we tried worked and one day I was literally sitting at my desk. Crying thinking
I don't even know how to begin fixing this and as a like, also the way you describe certainly that window that
wasn't where you could point to something as head of this is well it's about. This is what about this with its it's almost like it's this now,
specific sis
They thing
that is all right
that is so right, there's like
everything's, fine, everything's, fine, everything's, fine, there's these little slights little slights pope
blow by that wine. You put that on under the rug. You forget about this one explain that went away because
explainable away about their small. Do you didn't look at me?
Well, you know, I asked you how you were, but you don't ask me how I, when I was in this tiny,
many things that don't mean anything a crew had suddenly shit like breaks loose.
And it just blows up and then-
because it so weird you just struggle to find some experts, because you did this right that, but
in place for me? I don't think that that that there is such
explanation. This more like the weird irritation of trying
be close to someone else s
single day creates this weird tension.
I don't does that's alright, you yeah,
You know, I think, we're married actually probably similar amounts of time where we're kind of ana twenty one years this year. Actually so her tuitions yeah it it is, it is really interesting how everything changes and everything evolves we're going to get a lot more into that so yeah
point where you're just kind of like what
Exactly what
actually, I'm thinking literally, I dont know where even start, I've tried everything and then
this. I heard myself say I hesitate to say I heard a voice because there's nobody there with me but
something inside me said begin at the beginning. At the beginning,
our foreign, noble truce. I could you not
and to me as a long term practitioner that meant something because
The entire buddhist path is built,
something called affordable truths, truths which I'm sure you know, and I had never thought
to do with relationships life
suffering, grasping
suffering as possible to stop suffering, there's an eightfold path for doing so review, right intention, and so on,
didn't think I could do with my love life, but then,
this moment. It's like those teachings like kindly reformed themselves, in my mind too,
my relationship, sorrowed them now tell me more
just that the basics of bees for normal to assure happily so, when the
buddha attained enlightenment, more than twenty five hundred years ago anyway,
Acta? Is he now practicing posse, not sure what they call themselves,
it was apparently enlightened. They could tell they said what did you learn
What did you see? He said
I saw four things: never wine,
life is suffering which
really easy to interpret as life sucks or life is awful. But upon
red investigation. I conclude that that is not what he meant. He meant that ever
changes, there's nothing.
hold onto an
everything we do to create stability or ground
this relationship that harm or this degree or this amount of money
going to dissolve, and it's a very painful.
that's the first novel truth. I is suffering
everything, changes.
Second noble truth is the cause of suffering, which is called
grasping which
sickly means not wanting the first noble truth to be true or pretending that it isnt. Well, ok,
Maybe that's true for you,
I am going to construct this fortress for myself. That is, you know, inviolate and so far, so
you hold on to what you think will make you happy and try to push away the things that you think won't and that's
grasping, and that is actually the cause of suffering, not the suffering itself, not the law,
not the dissolution painful, though
be the.
Cause is holding on the
No more truth is called the cessation of suffering, which means you can stop
now you know the cause you also.
the cure. Stop grasping.
Course much easier said than done, but it I'll just bath
radically. That's the answered, how you stop suffering and then the four
truth is called the eightfold path, which is how you actually do that. How do you stop grass me
if I can say them all, but right
Tension right view right speech, right, livelihood, right action, right effort, right, mindfulness, right, wisdom, all those
aids, have a vast care enough knowledge around them, and you could study one of your whole life.
And if you do those things just like the buddha, you got the same trick: bag.
You two could attain liberation from suffering, so it's a whole tat right there,
so you go from this place of. Thank you for that.
Here the foreign languages and take you back in it
a place where he had this big awaken, see often from saying ok, so
I don't know, which way is up with my loving partner
somebody give me an answer. You go back to the beginning. The four noble truths come to you
but you take that and then treat this
additional overlay. So that
become a she'll, take much more
relevant to the content
of relationships, yeah really help needed
look at them this way, so for a noble trees, have a kind of sequencing, there's a fat, a truth, the
the cause of the truth
the cessation of the suffering connected to the truth
and how to do it? The truth. The cause the could cure and how so, when I took those
My marriage. What they look like was the truth relation
its are uncomfortable period:
You know, if you, of course,
we were just talking about the ordinary,
irritation or just living with someone. You ve been our relationship for twenty plus years like. Why are you doing that thing again? They said you would never do why we having this argument again
Cysts comfort this every day and beyond everyday discomfort. But if you haven't even ever met
person like you're going on a blind date. This already discomfort would have failed
like me, what if they do like me and so on and so forth, so in every
phase of relationship. There's discomfort, that's the truth that suffers truth. Relationships are uncomfortable
and surely the umbrella of the first personal truth of love. You also talk about this thing called the three poisons time at this
we also classical put his teaching with these.
three poisons and we each have our poison a choice, although we all have all three poisons these are the things we do to throw roadblocks and are in our own way and their call passion
sometimes also called grasping aggression and
its or numbness
So these are three neurotic reactions we have. Two things had upset us rather than opening to them and experiencing them and letting them
for us in responding to them and so on. We have thing
that were like the pie.
in part is
need this. I must have it
if I don't have it all die. Gettings
super attached
nor article, not in the wonderful way to protect
the outcomes or
prevention of particular outcomes, so that's poison, number one
of course, in a relationship. It's really easy to
hang on the person's every word. Does this mean you like me? This means it's over. This means its great, so there's this
intensity. This grasping of the moment as proof
you're either gonna leave me or you're continued to love me. Nobody particular cares for that.
Giving our receiving the second
listen. Aggression is
the things that you, the could hurt you
sense of I'm going to destroy that.
I'm just going to decimated. I'm gonna get it out of my way IX, nay, whatever it takes.
aggression and move against it.
Do it some people, that's their default response, the first,
Passion and aggression, you can kind of work because you can t see them
one is most insidious: ignorance, the poison of trust,
shutting down. Turning
turning away avoid- and this is my particular-
poison of choice, so I'm familiar with it. It just not happening
I wouldn't do something else:
That is a very that's the opaque, difficult poison, but we are
We do all three of these things in it. It would be
painful to think I gotta stop doing those three things, because there's nothing
there's, no passion, aggression, ignorance, switch
so, if anybody wants to work with the the poisons the best
is the only place to start is by just noticing them
noticing when you employ them, noticing them when they are employed
against you.
Turning to learn their texture,
personality and get to know them makes it
Easier to work with them- and these are also- then I guess, the poison. You can also translate them ass as common and destructive reactions to having to face them
personal to love. Exactly the outcome
reactions to fear. Ok,
economic thinking,
that relationships should be comfortable is what makes them unkempt. Sir,
well, of course, I hope everyone's relationship makes them happy
people and so on, and I want to be comfortable and happy in all that. But I dont
but that's necessarily the job of deep romantic, intimate love.
however, when most of us say we're looking for love
normally mean that, according to
anecdotal observation we're looking for safety.
We're looking for someone to make us feel that everything's, ok or some
with whom we can serve turn our back on certain trials and tribulations and make a cocoon and.
Ok, those things are great.
If there's one thing I learned about love and that I can say with great certainty about love- is that it is not safe.
There's no way to make it safe and the minute you try to make it safe. It ceased,
to be love and stress to it.
Like some sort of a transaction,
I will do this and you will do that and so forth and so on, and I don't want
Call I think it's called love, so we think
well, if only it was comfortable, if only you didn't have this behaviour, if only I could
that amount of money or we lived in this house, are you stop jiggling? Your foot
every time you talk to me or whatever, whatever crazy things, which you are not doing by the way, whatever crazy thing linking gather your foot right now,
no you're going here, then we would be fine
ok work on your problems, your foot jiggling in your money problems work on those things, HOPI solve them all, but
that when you do, everything will be cool. That's where the problem,
and because the weirdest thing that I ever learned about our relationship and on fixing to tell you what it is right now. This truly crazy, they never stabilize they never stabilize
I thought well would be in this relationship will get to know each other
these kings will work them out and then at some point it's gonna be fine. At some points it is fine until it is not- and I can't breathe
how what whether france are gonna blow through this now question
the five year relationship.
With someone, I know really well and who knows me really well, I still can't predict
I could be really nice and kind and sweet, and so I get
like stare, I can be
the complete ass, anxious
looking at me in the eyes with the eyes of love, is not
doing it doesnt stabilize it never does
because it's alive so
to get it to stabilize like, let's make it perfected then hold actually what creates
discomfort discomforts, not the problem. Thinking it should be comfortable is
noble truth of left, no truth in love, member in the broadest sense. It's the cure.
Seeing the discomfort together is love,
third, now what you
Normally we look so
the problem. I look at you. I go this year fall for its mouth.
I'm really sorry less
spell this discomfort by signing blame and want to
Sign the blame were like ninety percent
on the way to solving the problem
right now. It is clear that problems are: let's have dinner. What do you expect the next climate,
It's you possibly we that
in their failure dies, but if
A great partner, in my mind, is not someone who will play
or take blame her.
but one who also stop looking at you
turned my visuals eternally put shoulder to shoulder, and you look at the problem and you
it together,
and you see how now we
we love each other are now
I really love you, but you don't seem to be that interested in me now I dont like each other.
Now we seem to be in love again now we just want to be a part. There is these in
credible, believes that royal and roll
through the relationship
We basis a minute to minute basis,
certainly yearly basis
to write that together to me. That's the ultimate love for on this right together.
and I'm feeling this way about it, you're feeling that way about it, and now it's beautiful now. It's not that to me. That's that's an incredibly loving partner,
it's a beautiful thing to do. That's a companion there.
take us to the fourth. Fourth, noble truth is the path.
There's, a way to work with it, and so
eightfold path, although I do apply the eightfold path state
is to relationships like what is right view and relationship and so on, but the three this a threefold path:
that to me as a meditation teacher.
Mirrors. Actually the practice
meditation, which has three particular qualities.
Could I will just mention briefly? The first is meditation is precise, your man
I know you know this
the attention on the object of your meditation, which in most cases, is the breath or could be a mantra or an image, so it's very
pointed
push your touch on the breath of the mantra wherever it is, and if you straight into anything it's considered thinking, she come back full super precise one pointed.
from that. Oddly something interesting happens. You sit there
being one pointed allowing yourself to be exactly as you are you like yourself,
not like yourself, you're distracted, you're, not distract, it doesn't matter, doesn't matter because
to meditate. You'd have to stop thinking, please. If you think that stop thinking about
you just sit there with yourself as you are you open.
And from this precision the ability to open.
rises, magically meditations, famously associated with insight, sometimes called the practice of insights from this one pointed knows this:
Openness of mind happens in sight, arises quite expensive,
Quality is called letting go.
Because you put your touch on the breath, you let yourself be as you are, then you notice your distracted. That's awesome.
Just woke up
direction is like. Oh, I didn't go. It's very profound,
Because then, you ll go in your in space for a moment to come
your object rather mantra.
letting go is the lesson of being human, letting go letting go letting go so precise, open letting go,
in a relationship
do these things mean.
so, the precision is the foundation of meditation the foundation of a relationship. In my mind, the very simple it starts with
Good manners, but those are really cheesy.
Yeah, it's good manners are profound. It's not just to use this work or not it's at my actually. Thinking of you
and what you are experiencing and how I might be kind to you and I noticing you good manners are profound form of bought from us and you actually think about the person.
Article four, don't have that very hard
to establish the foundation of our relationship, says like this
just awareness and a very directed were sadly without an agenda, and
to be honest with you
say the truth. When you know it and to say it skilfully, not blurting Lee those
precise, that's the precise piece of this pact, good manners, truth telling the second quality openness
laughing, because I was quite
Can a back when I realized how this came into play, which
to imagine that the person prisoner in relationship with
of at least equal importance to yourself shocking. Ah, oh you're, there can be open to you
I'm going to be open to you and the third step.
and the book has more suggestions in this? Is I letting go.
Find this very interesting personally as well,
about romance ends just as sorry.
but intimacy has no end, the
ingo pies in relationship is letting go constantly of how you think it ought to have gone to be with
What is it?
such a way that everything you and
counter
four experiences. Detrimental experiences loss, boredom confusion.
everything that you encounter together can
Actually be used to deepen, intimacy.
Which has no end, and that
you can commit to for a lifetime. You can commit to romance recalculate to any feeling, but you can commit to deepening intimacy
that made me very happy when I realized that, like that, I could do that honestly
Honestly say I'll always love you, but
I will always try to act lovingly
but you were sea or be with you or stay marry you as you go through what you go through and we and I go through things that I can committee, so that too
it was her, is very hopeful, so precise open. I go.
this all emerged out of your own, seeking
I understand what you I was up in your own relationship and trying to figure out
understand this headway, navigate, I being it or not, be in it
But had aware this figure how to be ok with this person,
in this moment and maybe in another another another another. And while when I got it,
the beginning this
A whole idea can jumps how to hear you say
who play in the context of your own relationship.
and, like you said also duncan, has not
list.
Were you serve
you actively and openly saying, okay. I am now sort of engaging in the four noble truths of love and relationship and sharing with him what you were doing and how you are doing it and say come come. Do this
with me, or was this just here's a bit of wisdom? Let me
on precise and relationship and maybe hope,
upham what's happening and not, and if he wants to engage in any of these reciprocally
ass, a man, if not that's fine, to what
it is then turn round and unfolded in the context of your relations chair. I appreciate you asking that there's act
we a great benefit to being mary,
to a non practitioner? What unquote, when you are,
practitioner of something in my case buddhism and
great value. Is that you can't bullshit them with darpa notions? You cannot
unload some sometimes stuff on them and think that it will mean anything.
You have to be those things.
I didn't say: hey baby I've discovered the foreigner noble of love. Let me tell you what they are instead, I started acting like the discomfort was part of the deal.
and looking at it together was loving, and
meeting it together,
in our intimacy sweet to doing those things. Luckily, he is
I'm not saying this to be humble. He,
is a much more loving, naturally than I am
He's more relational his
more naturally, it turned to the dynamics of a relationship that I am so,
you have to like
then some of anything- but I
It was more the way I showed up.
of course, the way you sure has much more impact on the way someone else's up than any
charts and graphs that you can unroll about this is this is my theory of relationships which is basically useless.
it's useless the theory. The practice is the only thing that matters, so I had to do what
a small bag of not trying to minimize it
I did I do was just try to do these things in it.
Change things for us yeah
I love the idea that the four noble choose applied to the context of love and
she really say distort start dancing with them. Thank you. Thank you
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powerful insight from susan, if you're starting to feel that in getting deep,
friendships, rolling and cultivating lasting love or powerful
also complicated. Well,
you're, not alone. So often we focus on those intimate, loving relationships, but
if we assume the lens out well, what about friendship? Not
superficial colleagues or social media followers that you kind no, but dont really
about legitimate, deep enduring vulnerable and honest friendship.
Those make life so rich, and yet there not the easiest to create as adults, so
We had an amazing conversation with cat velas. Who is a? U ex designer an author? Can she shares really powerful insights into how we can continue to see new friendships as the pace of life picks up and were all feeling crunched? I love this because cat takes her user experience, design and poles,
of the world of technology or products or business and applies it to the quest to create
ship and the lens and the insights and the tools are really powerful. You
use this term platonic longing than I
was fascinating. Tell me more about so this came.
We have a lot of the research and interviews I had with people about their friendships, because I guess
I got kind of fascinated with the topic of friendship when I started having difficulty with it here and being a
we as personally, would ask other people at work. What is your experience of community like what is your experience of friendship like and over and over? There is
The very nuance description that people were giving for what they were experiencing and feeling, and it wasn't always loneliness, even though you know we're in a loneliness epidemic, there's a lot of that in our community in america, but people
and always feel lonely cause. They had say coworkers that they got along whether they had a roommate that they got along, whether they were in a relationship but when they work
grieving for it.
really intimate friendship, feeling safe
heard and seen feeling comfortable, sharing anything, whether it's a happy day or angry day and knowing that they would be accepted and and still loved and held by that friend
feeling cared about in a time of need like this, was a very, very specific ache. This was an unmet.
Need anna and a hunger for a specific type of connection, it was missing and it was the friendship connection to I call it platonic.
So it's different, then you know we know unrequited longing, which is always just given a romantic frame. This you know this
winning for a partner lover whatever, and what was here with this longing for, like really really deep friendship, love
yeah, I mean tissue use. The word friendship love. I remember a couple of years back doing some research on love and seeing it sort of deconstructed into these four types of love. There is compassionate love, which is the one. This really allows you to feel empathy and very often inspires. Altruism, there was romantic,
which is what most of us think about when we talk about love there is at hand
love, which is simply justice, really long term dynamic. And then there is this. There was companion, it love, but I dont think me,
people think about that companionship, slash nearly friendship as love,
but it really is an and it seems like,
you know when I hear platonic longing. What I hear is almost like the
precursor
We haven't quite accepted the fact that
real friendship is about love, rather than just like year, like canada hanging out in doing some things in shared interests and its that deep
genuine love.
were really longing for, because I think so many of us don't
Julie knowledge that that is, in fact, a quality
of genuine friendship is a little bit scary thing,
yeah. I mean when we look at the culture
that were in
there's so much emphasis and validation for one
Say a romantic love or wanting to have a partnership and there's almost this shame are embarrassment about wanting a best friend or admitting
that you don't have the kind of
intimate friendship or close friendships that you really want anything. That's really telling there's something there that I think needs healing in our society and that I sincerely hope we can transform so that people can feel just as comfortable saying like I'm looking for a boyfriend or a girlfriend. Is there saying, like I'm looking for my best, the arm? Looking for a close friend a you know, and to understand that, just as much as we crave that
have to come from another, and we have that love to give to another that we at the same is true and friendship and that it should be safe and x
the bomb uncomfortable to admit that that is it
extremely
dreamily valuable source of love in our lives
yeah. So great you, I mean it's inching as you also, so this sort is a personal issue
this is like. Ok, so, what's happening with me, you're design, mind like human centred, surrogate zooms alight, sounds like zooms allowance as his heart. This conscious
about me, let me look really diving into this and suggesting like what's going on
how about some of the things that you discovered and
But also the biggest part of your research project reveal that this, in fact, is not just about you, like the statistics on adult friendship,
and loneliness in especially in the? U s are kind
horrifying right now, yeah, they really really are, and even in the short time that I was
working on my book and researching this topic so deeply it was,
talking to me how quickly, I would see the stats changed in the process of writing. The bug like I had to go back and like update the stats, because they were getting worse and who has lived. What do you think this is not ok for how many people feel it, though
I understand some, how many people feel like they have no one to turn to in a time of need how many people feel like they don't have the number of friends
that they want in their life or how many people I haven't, made a new friend and have for many years, and it was really
moving and really motivating as well. You know
when I started out that project one of the things I ve learned as a user researcher and someone who just generally curious about people all the time is that whenever
persons having a problem there, usually not the only one. You know I don't have a friend who
describes like oh, I can never figure out how to like use this website, or this thing always confuses me what's wrong with me and I'm like there's nothing wrong with you, it's hasty with the way that
it was designed, and your price
not the only one and I've seen this over and over again, and so, as I followed that through
If curiosity to what does this mean, what is friendship? Look like four people. What does connection
for people and the more I heard people saying over and over that it was not say meat
their satisfaction level or exceeding. Who cares that
Action level to me it was
Like any other usability issue words, I can we think about her
design more closeness, help me thinking
had a design, better relationship
and friendships and not from the place of lake design like oh, I like manipulating this thing like forcing it to be ass our way, but it's like with intention nasty,
that's what I believe design. It is the art of intent, analogy in bringing that purpose and intention to creating a certain desired outcome when work
it may be our friendships just happen, but in adulthood, there's weighty matters like distraction than responsibilities and challenges, and if you don't bring
the intention is not just gonna magically happen, and so that's, where mercury
let me in what I am hoping to drop people into his understanding. Let like there actually is something
all that you have here. There is a way to be intentional and how you created, and
you bring into your life and what you bring into your friendships. In that way, we're not really
taught
to do these things in adulthood. You know growing
unless you're lucky enough to go to a super progressive flag might do so. Very skilful is something like there's no education about how to navigate these things
like how do you build trust? How do you demonstrate commitment, how'd you get here
conflict resolution knowing that lake things are not going to go perfect all the time. You know people will disappoint us. We are going to disappoint people. Some
Our communication will be great and other times it's gonna be real crappy, you know. But how do we fix these problems and how do we create real, durable,
friendships and relationships is not something that were taught and unless somebody gets his fire
to go to therapy or read a bunch of self help. Boxer is lucky enough to have people in their life who are incurred
we skilled demonstrators of the skills and can
ro model that for them a lot of people to stop
you know figuring it out on their own or just feeling confused about like how do we do this, and how do I bring this up in a room for
Other people when I dont know how they feel about
or will I look like the weird out. You know they say the thing and people like whatever, so
it so important that we make it acceptable to talk about and make it a shame
free experience to bring up and to express and
they like I'm learning and growing, and I messing up and how.
you guys doing, and can we work on this together and left?
be okay,
I feel like it's it's I so agree and I feel like so often we look at
people who seem to just make friends everywhere they go and what kind of like
there are the haves and the have nots like there are. The people are just you either
know how to do it and everyone gravitate you or you down. It's not a skill,
it's not something that you create, whereas in fact it's
true at all
you? Have this interesting other kind of fascinating concept which can a speech to what we're talking about the notion of hydroponic friendship,
with these elements of compatibility and frequency and commitment and proximity,
These are shorter later, some of that some of those skills or some the conditions tell me more about this. So
I'm a gardener and for many years,
of trained and learn more about plants, its
really taken over my metaphors than I used to process and
one of the things that was apparently
when I was coming across some other research about
many hours it takes to make a close friend
one of the studies, was saying it takes two hundred hours to make her friend,
from a stranger to really feel like a close friend in the study was done with college students who had access to each
there are much more nino frequent basis than most typical working adults and housing.
wow. I was like how am I gonna share this without anybody feeling
completely demotivated like deflated when they hear that cover like where am I gonna get two hundred hours from
and the metaphor they came to my mind- was around hydroponics, because you know
we know now that you can grow up
and in water without soil. But when that thought was first introduced. You know
It was like a laughable people like how on earth could you grow a plant without soil? That's crazy, like you should never say that again, that's bananas. Nobody will ever do it, but of course it's true.
works and the way it works is because you give the plant the new trans that it might have otherwise absorbed from the soil is put in the water and then it grows, and you give it lighten. Of course-
the things it needs and so
metaphor, in my mind, was in the absence of abundant time, which is what most of you like. There are lacking to put into their function.
and that two hundred hours can become a freaky and caring for them. In the absence of that much time, what can we do to create a close friendship instead, an
repining. Friendship is the notion that if europe
on time, you can add that our future
I can't write these nutrients that it needs instead
those are experiences of both
ability and intimacy and mc shared experiences and the things that are also shown in research to help people bond and feel a sense of belonging with each other. And if you purposely increase those things and
danced amount of time. People can get closer quicker and I've seen it happen.
In it, as a facilitator. At summer, camp succeeded as a facilitator in adult programmes where, when you're in a container ice space that fake hey, this is our social contract. This is how we gonna be together for this amount of time
How will share this is how all accept you know, communicate, etc. People can they get it
closer, a lot quicker, and it's always this kind,
like time warp like mind, bending experience to be in a situation like that we're talking to somebody and you're like wow after a few hours, you feel like you've known them for ten years, and I've seen this happen at facilitating
He says that our intentional around how we use conversation, unlike what are the things that we talk about an how do we connect and because I'd seen it happen over and over again and facilitated spaces. This is why I believe that is possible in friendship as well
people bring that same intention and mutual agreement
around how we will contribute to each other in this arena
thing, we're doing together and then build a friendship more quickly.
Yeah, we ve seen this happen also. I got really fascinated
six seven years ago there was a modern love peace in now
The new york times had exploded, went massively viral by mandolin, where she
discovered these
are now noticed. The thirty six questions, so research, arthur errands out of stone working university, wanted to see me
cultivate real, intense intimacy between perfect strangers and remarks
Your pay time, so he knew me
factors these thirty six question,
that are designed in three sets of twelve. That kind,
progressively step you into vulnerability and revealing more and
then, at the end of it you gaze into each other's eyes, and it was for four minutes, and I was fast.
Because the research shared as soon as I read the story that I went on ass, she looked up all the research. I read all the studies and it should
at people who had done that in college students, tourist total strangers before felt
you're like an hour with this person,
that they knew them the or they knew each other more deeply and were had stronger friendships than people they had known for years after an hour with joy.
the right conditions and the right prompts, which is
the mind blowing. What should I think about it? It's
a lot about the power in
in purposeful interaction there when I,
as a facilitator. One of the warm up activities we used to do as a micro version of what you're describing they're called milling were people.
This walk around space, a new pair them periodically to answer questions at increase in intimacy and self disclosure.
From very light to something a little bit more meaningful than something that's kind of close to the heart, and it's like a fifteen minute
activity that seriously. In the same way, people would come in a strangers and then like before you even half way to a programme. They feel like they ve made a new friend that they can't wait to hang out with a gun. They want to trade phone numbers, and then I built out from their like this experience called better than small tat cause. I struggle with small talk as an introverted. I don't like it in so creating like an evening experience based on that kind of interaction
one of the other experiments I did when I came to the bay area because I was like I'm there sure I'm not the only one who doesn't like small talk. So if that's how you like raise your hand that come in this room and know that here, you are free from that and you will be
provided with, like hundreds of alternatives and a willing set of people who are also bought in two saying like
Speed together in a different way like let's have a different kind of conversation and when you create a gathering with that kind of purpose and that mutual intention and a set of tools
how bright, so the questions the guides, the invitation magic.
and it really can yeah I've seen it over and over again and people self select right. If you're really clear about the intention and yet the quote, rules of the game are rules of engagement are and, and you offer the prompts you hope,
by the time people show up to participate in that they ve already opt in to a certain extent to being uncomfortable
I'm just saying I don't know, I don't really
You know how to do this, and I also, but in a meeting
What is even more stunning to me. Is there also kind of saying I'm lonely, because its
after matches part of wire showing up, which is
of the hound at a vulnerable to do that before you even know who else is gonna, be there
and it's also this active, I think, hope you know of believe.
That like even if you feel lonely or even if you ve lived here for two three years and don't feel like you, have you
people. Yet your friends, yet its active
to say you know I haven't given up yet
still gonna put myself out there and I'm still gonna try and I find that incredibly justin
firing and really motivating to keep doing the work and to keep creating opportunities for
people to step into my.
Say their willing to step out there.
of the whole part of that, because it is, I think it is theirs, is sent
I think, after a while to just dropped,
into a sense of utility like this, is just one site to be a grown up like we don't get
that level of friendship for that,
level of community that level of chosen family with as adults it just now.
with great while it was as a kid? But that's not what being a girl?
it is about, but in fact it is
in that sense of hope that possibility right that maybe this
sustained for life.
Back and we created in all its different
versions as anew through all the different stages of my own life, dad
that is an act of profound hope. I hope it.
be be true in my life. I hope that will continue to make deep friendships over the decades
continue to
sperience new thing was with free,
the different kinds of people and to be
prized and to be challenged and to be pushed to grow into.
Continually evolve. You know, and
say you know. The best years of our life are not in the past the best friendships
life don't exist in some like sepia tone photo from the past data like they can still be created today, and they can still be traded tomorrow. The thank you
so. I love the way cat approaches, adult friendship as a design problems to be solved and then shares real actionable advice and we're gonna bring
this conversation home with pathfinder community, curator and storyteller mia birdsong me
taiwan is a founding code. Director of family stories were mere lifted up a new national story about what,
makes a good family and, as a vice president of the family independence initiative, she leverage the power of data and stories to illuminate and accelerate the initiative. Low income families take to improve their lives. Her
the conversations like the new america serious entering black women as agents of change and her team
Fifteen ted talk, the story we tell about poverty isn't true to a lot of attention to the stories of people who are finding their way into leadership roles despite myriad barriers, while also highlighting the vibrant terrain,
all marginalized people who are leading on the ground and solving for tomorrow she is fiercely focused on re, imagining the notion of family as a more
spencer and inclusive community a chosen family and invited family and right now we all need people in our lives who feel like family as we move into.
next season. So
excited. So, let's hear a bit
a conversation with
birdsong, so
people this all the time, unlike what makes a good family the first
everyone says, is love, and then
Talk about. You know, people who will be there for you. They talk about
People who care about you? People who will
support you, unlike
You know if you're trying to do something new, like those support you and that no one ever talks about structure
No one ever is like what makes a good
really good family is that you have a man and a woman who are married and they have biological children. No one has ever said that to me and granted, like
I'm not talking to like
right wing fundamentalists, but
think all of us fundamentally know that
the function of family. That is important, not the structure, and the fact is that
kind of insular nuclear family is a very recent invention.
The idea that two people will provide-
What like all of the things that we need from human beings, that we would get it from like one other adults and that two people can read
These children is just like
face absurd, like that's. Never,
in human history ever been the case we ve. Always
extended families always had chosen family, but always had family with people who are like in our tribe, who we weren't necessarily biologically related to we have also
if and when I you I'm talking about like thousands of years of human history, we always collect.
we raised children, so the the
We're family really. Is this like bizarre
a troll anomaly, and
it is not serving because
You know, unless you are the
very small percentage of people who has won
in person in your life, who can be, you know,
and who you are a romantic land, sexually attracted to and then like actually have good sex with,
the person who you can be roommates wealth and manage a household with and combing layer finances and-
travel with an beer best friend and your confidant, and then, if you have kids raise kids with like that is
many roles for
people to fill to bofill for each other, so
No. What I see is that a lot of folks who are trying to do that are deeply unhappy
because they're not actually getting their needs met, and they don't
could not- and this is particularly true of straight men and they don't really recognize that there are other ways for them to get some of those needs matt. You know, like I'm, a terrible roommates, like my
you know my husband. I have lived together for like twenty years, but
in some other configuration of our marriage and in a world where housing was not so incredibly expensive like it might be better for us to, like you, know, live in a duplex athens. I could make my mess upstairs and he could keep his note. Part neat downstairs, so
part of is about re imagining, but part of his also recognising that we actually
to do something else. So I think of ever is both kind of understanding and looking to like our end.
A straw history,
seeing how we know our people did thing.
Before and then re imagining those
structures and ways of being in relationship with each other for a modern,
right so for what actually fits our lives
yes, it's more, it's really more of that.
Questioning of why why we're doing it? The way were doing it when we have so much history of doing
differently and- and very arguably,
spiriting our lives.
they different ways- levels better, go
I mean it's interesting because also there's theirs is expected.
that said, I think now that you know if you shooting,
coach should be able to get everything you need from this nuclear family, and you don't.
you know, you're feeling, lonely, you're, feeling stress your feeling overwhelmed all the different things that nearly pretty much everyone has to feel at some point
Their journey in this relate small tight family. It
don't feel there is. Then you judge yourself a failure, exact
and then you layer on top of that, the sense of shame wishes.
things worse and then
people end up being silent about it right. They don't talk about it. They don't have the conversations they need to with their partner about like what they can actually do for each other and never mind
if you're, not. If you dont have a partner right, then what he supposed to do there all
his ways in which our our culture
the design of, like you know, houses and cars and certainly also like,
that's that exist and are,
culture, are really created for and oriented toward the insular nuclear family and there are healthy
People in america who are happy
to dislike. Navigate systems that weren't made for us and who are having to kind of exist
the culture that said
that their failure, right that says, there's something wrong with them.
And not only is it saying that, but of but lots of folks also internalized that and assume that there's something wrong with them or feel it.
Their life is incomplete because they dont have a partner or they are no use to, and now they doubt and I
that is like they're. So many ways- and I mean one of the stories in my book thy love- is
my friend Diana who
This does not have a partner
that does not have a romantic sexual partner, but like
her and her friend, cynthia are each other's plus one. They talk.
Bout retirement, they text each other every day they
I have made this friendship that they have
fill the role that many people look to a romantic and sexual partner for, and they both you note date, people and how
you know, have had other relationships remained.
sexual relationships, but this french
between them, as is primary, and I love that I just love the model of that
and largely like. So much so many the stories that I tell
the book and the book, as you know mostly stories. It's mostly the stories that I I found that helped me understand and answer the questions that I had about. Creating farming community
they're just they're just these these models that they're not like blueprints for for us right, they're, not like oh, like this, is what this person did, I'm going to go and replicate it, but it really is about
having enough examples that allow us to expand our understanding of what is possible and then
we can kind of get into our own. You know
no inquiry about. What is it that I actually want in my life right?
The things that I learned from a bunch of the folks who I talk to about friendship was
about kind of it,
getting rid of the the very narrow confines of how we think about what a friendship is and what it's for and
actually thinking about in other people who are like, I think about the people I consider close friends and like
be in conversation with them about like what is the culture of our friendship like what are the expectations we have of each other? What can we count on it?
therefore, what
the boundaries that we have and that's expanded.
The relationships? I haven't those people into places that do not
into you. No kind of the deal.
African box.
What we say a friend is- and I love the depth of those relationships, I love the kind of intimacy that that's created between
me and folks, both because, like were actually having conversations about our relationship, but also,
because we realise, like oh here's, a here's, a
but we want from this this relationship. That is not that we wouldn't have
covered if we hadn't
conversation about like how do we be friends had a we be friends, the amazing
you're really blurring the line in our so instead of yeah, ok, here's the box or family. Here's the box or friends hears about your acquaintance as it should
Ok, let's throw up against the wall and let's fundamentally asked the question: what do I
want and need from the relationships in my life. What am I open to giving and then how do I? How do I? Just
instructed in away from like the the universe of people who were in my orbit exactly
It is good that gives that, and that gives them what they need and whether we call that family, whether we call her friends who really cares at that point, but
requires, I mean it really requires, especially
in a world today where you ve got this. You got me
separations right. You ve got a lot of people who go there.
If no family route, because maybe they feel it's right for them, and very often
that involves pulling.
From all of those people who not long before really did serve a lot of those roles. And now the
become more isolated? They start to expect they get everything from their traditional family and then the friends that are moving away from feeling. Okay. So now I am no longer in the year I am no longer part of.
family, but also no longer a part of the
We are a community of people who decided that this is the model of of what family website for them in that guy, and now
you feel like an end. Society has, as you mentioned, nearly kind of
labels them to a certain extent as well
doing it right because you're not there yet and just
it's more devise, though I mean
talk about really needing to have intentional, open, comrade and making this a very intelligent and process at me this one,
and just wait for it to happen and hope it does know? There's a there's a I mean you're you're, essentially choosing to counter our culture and doing that requires vigilance and tending you know. So, I'm you know, I'm a cis woman and I'm married to a cis man like I. I am in a a nuclear family right, and I think the
the challenge that I, that I realized in doing this work, that I is that I needed to be vigilant right. My husband and I need to be vigilant about making sure that we're not close.
Ourselves off and that's partition,
really true right now, because we're all sheltering in place- and I am just in this house with these three other people-
I've really had to creep.
a regular practice of making sure that I'm in
Having conversations with my loved ones about our relationships,
hacking and with people. I am you know
I am receiving when people check in with me,
You know one of those that one of the most powerful threads throughout the whole book is
about how allergic we are to asking for help and accepting help
and how powerful it is. When we get over that
the things that- and this has been emphasised for me now that like covert,
happening is that the off
support to folks. I found
this is so much more powerful for them when it specific so instead of just people, they know saying like. Let me know if you need anything. I have been
trying to end
myself into people's lives right crossing, miss this like boundary that we think of in our friendships and
trusting the intuition. I have about what I know about people's experience and who they are
offering something that I actually think could be helpful. So saying specifically, you know
I know you ve been doing a lot of caretaking recently. Can I make like extra what I?
can for dinner and bring it to. You
posed to saying. Let me know if you need anything
and then I think the same has been true for me. Like I've. Had you know, I have a friend who, in the beginning of covert she would
asked me in a couple of other people and say: hey, I'm going to the grocery store d need anything and I
my kind of risk
this tends to saying. Yes, when I knew that, like I'm,
salt right- and if you like, I can't I can't I can't
cook without salt. So if I
get this one thing that that means I can like weight to go the grocery store for another week, like that actually helpful for me, so
I have said. Yes, every time she has texted, because there's always in one or two things that I could use that would just bring
to my wife
ass time actually text at her, and I was like hey next time. We go where you get us coffee, because I knew wherein we have coffee in a minute and I
totally go to the store just to get coffee, but who wants to do in especially right now wants to do that so
there's a way in which kind of creating that that cycle of of support, both giving in receiving support lets us
each other more deeply and creates intimacy, and I feel so much more held and so much less isolated because of the vienna.
Past couple of months. The way in which I feel like me in the people I m in community with have accepted
port from each other and have offered support to each other and, like
it's one of the things that I see that I'm excited to take,
side of you know covered is just like allowing
they being vulnerable enough right to allow people to know me in that way and to be in my life in that way and to encourage,
their people in my life to do the same here
in its I mean being vulnerable and allow yourself to be seen in a robust, eight emits a mild thing like unless deepened,
relationships. I mean what are the things how she didn't relationship it. It is generally
vulnerability coupled with progressive.
revelation and
There has to happen both ways that I often wonder if the reason that sir
few of us are comfortable doing that. I am right in my hand, because I'm not the easiest version. That way is that
There's something in as its wired to keep score
and there's something in as that kind of says. Well, I dont want to feel behold in
You know I don't want had their sort of liking, electors it the somewhere, and there is a cosmic gently, credit and debit sheet that's being kept, and if it's not,
in balance on a regular basis, are abolished. Gonna feel like any two gave our needs a guy, I think that's white supremacy and gathered up, ringlets, wired
deeply, and it's something that we've learned that one hundred percent agree one hundred percent agree, but it, but I feel like it is a learned, behavior outlawed of us
it's so destructive- and it's almost like
once you have a group of people who just start doing it in
The agreement is, nobody keep score yeah it's it's like.
We have experienced in windows in my life and it sort of like everything dissolved and it becomes just really beautiful will theirs.
There's this generosity and in abundance that exists when you do that right and part of
I think for me, like, when part of what I would I work through my head when I'm offered support. Is that
I'm recognizing that it doesn't just do something. For me, it does something for the person whose offering the support- and I know that, because I know what it feels like when I am able to offer support and it's not because I'm like yes now, we have another like check and my
column of what they owe me and it's not about you know, earning points
my gods. It really is about feeling like I am in this generative cycle,
giving in receiving that is part of that. Like deepens my sense of my own humanity and deep
my sense of being part of you have been part
like community, and I know how good that feels for me. So partly
with this friend of mine who text me about the girl she's. Unlike oh, like
me saying yes is
if that I can give her like being
honourable, and allowing her to insert herself in my life. That way is a gift that I can give her
and let me not interrupt the cycle,
and like mess it up right by not providing her with that gift, so it is an exchange rate.
and I think it important for us to recognise it as that, but it's
about. Like you know, it's not about
like, I'm gonna, do this thing and then they're they're gonna tell me because
I feel like in some way is like.
I mean I'm done anything thing for them: I've let for sometimes I leave eggs on the porch, because we have chickens and there's like too many eggs, but, like most of you too,
up stuff, often like that's it. I also know that, like I'm doing similar things for other people, so it's not even about just like my relationship with her and the kind of like back and forth between us, but actually, though, this much
part of a much kind of grandeur,
Michael of giving and receiving that were both part of
dad now. I love it and one of the things that also comes up in the context of that, I think, is something that you speak to which
This idea of yeah
and there are moments also when you want to have boundaries,
But at the same time you can negotiate ways to interact with people. Wanna know one of the stories that that you tell those really fascinating. Waiter approach is
you talk a lot about also
family around food and kitchens and friendships and how that enables all such a different things and
How, on the one hand, it's really nice too, sometimes just how people draw buying granted right now, like were not really doing that, but we can emerge from it. A bullet
and then there are other times where you would feel like really intruded on
somebody just one by and we certainly live in a culture now, where
nobody, I know in new york city, does that email yeah. If somebody just knocked on my door, even if it was a friend of mine and said, okay, hey, let's hang out it'd, be awkward
the guy, the awkward I'd be kind of annoy, unlike what
not that I don't want to see them israelite theirs. It there's a contacts and
the way that you handled saying. Ok,
how I make this happen away, were we all feel good? Uncomfortable item was really fascinating.
yeah, so
A friend of mine talked about the fact that she would love for people to drop by, and I was like both like you
That would be great and also like, oh hell, no, like I don't want people to showing up at my doorstep, like I because like if I don't want to see them, that would just feel I would be annoyed, like you said,
I was like I just need to create a container for,
like a window and which, like people, are free to drop eyes. I created this thing called drop by dinner and,
I emailed like twenty people-
and it had a set of guidelines and the first was you know I don't know from remember all them but like basically like
Am I'm like that cleaning my house, I'm not preparing you a meal
come over bring some.
To add to you, know the the nourishment that we're gonna have. I will give you
however, it is that I'm gonna give my own children, but I'm not
it's not me, I'm a hosting writes about was
of the thing I like you dont, have to rsvp you,
and just show up, you can tell me you're going to show up and show up. You can tell me you're going to show up and then not show up and not explain it to me. It's really like we're not trying to kind of create a rep
any kind of like party situation
I also made it clear that they could not bring anybody with them unless it was their kids, because I didn't want child care to prevent people from showing up. But I also do not want extend this experience to people like that. I did
actually feel comfortable coming by my house when
the mass and then I was also like. Don't leave me
ass messier than you.
Found his what's like clean the dishes. Even if I tell you not do so,
I sent it out to a handful of people and
I think fifteen people showed up at the first one and it was spectacular. I was
wearing my pajamas, I dont think I had taken a shower that day,
Everybody, you know, brought food some people
I had been to my house multiple times, so they knew where everything was, and some people had never been there before and just got support from other people and figuring out how to feed themselves and get what they needed. And I would just do it every few months and I would you know, give people, maybe a day's notice or a week's notice, and sometimes three people would show up. Sometimes fifteen people would show up and
having my committee,
did he
collide in that way, right, like the various parts of my community collide, was fantastic. The conversations that we had were always really beautiful and I loved digital
experience of having my loved ones in my home,
I love that I think it's it's
I have a feeling that even us being so ice later right now, so many layers of
fear and possibility and chained generation being in the air that, as we emerge from this space, that people,
going to start to become more open to things like this, and I think I love the fact that your sorted out there right now
planting the sea to re, imagine, models and ways to gather and wasted, define, friendship and family
as we emerge from this sort of cocoon that were in to a certain extent, we can
but I really think about this more intensely. How do we want to step back into our relationship in a loud and re, magnet and recreated? Thank you. Thank you
well. I hope you enjoyed this relationship deep dive and, if you loved this episode be sure to share it around and listen to the full length conversations with julie of John gottman, susan piper cat fellows and me a birdsong all
Episodes are linked in the show notes below and even if you don't listen now be sure to click and download it. So it's ready to play when you're on the girl and, of course, if you have already done so, be sure to follow a good life project in your favorite. Listening up, so you'll never miss in episode and then share the good life project, love with friends, because when ideas become conversations that lead to action
That's one real change takes hold see you next time.
Transcript generated on 2023-06-17.