Iconic actress, producer, author and activist, Marlo Thomas, never wanted to marry. She saw what she believed was the way marriage “had” to be - one person giving up their dream for the other - and knew it wasn’t for her. Then, one fateful day in 1977, she appeared as an hourlong guest on the legendary daytime talk show hosted by Phil Donaghue. Both were smitten, they sensed something powerful had happened, but neither of them knew that conversation, aired before millions of viewers on daytime TV, would effectively be a first date that would lead to a marriage that’s now lasted more than 40 years.
Reflecting on what makes a relationship last that long, they got curious and began to set up double dates with many celebrity couples they know, and others they didn’t. People like Viola Davis and her husband, actor Julius Tennon, filmmaker Rob Reiner and his wife Michele; award-winning journalists Bob Woodward & Elsa Walsh; Ted Danson and Mary Steenburgen; Ray Romano and his wife Anna, Neil Patrick Harris and his actor/chef-husband David Burtka; the Rev. Jesse and Jacqueline Jackson, John Leguizamo and wife Justine and so many others.
Those hours-long conversations went so deep, got so vulnerable, open and at times, hysterically funny, they turned interviews into the bestselling book, What Makes a Marriage Last. And now, those conversations and more are featured in their new original podcast series, Double Date (https://www.pushkin.fm/show/double-date-marlo-thomas-phil-donahue/). We had so much fun talking about those early moments in their lives and relationship, what was really going on in each of their lives, hearts and minds and what they learned sitting down for double dates with so many incredible, long-term couples.
You can find Marlo & Phil's new podcast at:
Double Date : https://www.pushkin.fm/show/double-date-marlo-thomas-phil-donahue/
If you LOVED this episode:
You will also love the conversation that we had with Julie and John Gottman (https://tinyurl.com/gottman-love-lab), who are the founders of the legendary Love Lab, and their deep-dive into what love and what long-term relationships and marriages really are all about.
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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
So one of today's guests, iconic actress producer, arthur and activists, Marlowe thomas, never wanted to marry. She saw what she believed as the way merit had to be.
person giving up their dream for another and just knew it wasn't her and then one.
Full day in nineteen. Seventy seven sheep
as an hour long gas on the legendary daytime talk show hosting
My other guests today filled donoghue. Both
were smitten, to put it mildly. They sense something powerful had happened, but neither of them knew that that conversation, air before millions of yours on daytime tv would effectively be a first date that, with
to a marriage that has now lasted more than for decades and more recently, reflecting on what makes a relationship last that long. They got really curious and began to set up double date with many celebrity couples that they know and others that they didn't people lake,
Davis and her husband, actor Julius tenant filmmaker
our reiner and his wife, Michel award winning journalist, bob woodward and elsa walls.
dancing and mary steam burgeon meal.
the carers and his akershem husband, David burka, John leg was ammo and his wife, justine, and so many others- and
our long conversations. They went so deep, so fast got so vulnerable and open at times really hysterically funny.
They turned the interviews into the best selling book. What makes a marriage last and now those conversations and more are featured in their new original podcast series double date.
We had so much fun talking about those early moments in their lives and relationships.
Was really going on each one of their heads and hearts as they sat there across from each other, trying to figure out what is really happening here in the early days and how those thoughts in conversations than their relationship is really evolved.
Her time and what they learned when they sat down with so many people to uncover what it means, what it takes to be an relationship for a really long time so excited to share this conversation with you. I'm Jonathan field- and this is good- like project
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so the ten percent happier podcast has one guiding philosophy. Happiness is still that you can learn. So why not embrace it? It's hosted by dan harris journalist who had a panic attack on national television and then send out on this journey of transformation and he's now on a quest to help. Others also achieve peace and happiness, and every week Dan talked you top scientists, meditation teachers. Even the odd celebrity in wide ranging conversations that explore topics like productivity, anxiety and lightness, psychedelic and relationships. The interviews cover everyone from bernay brown to cerebral ass to SAM Harrison more. I love learning from his questions and experiences and incredible guess think of listening to ten percent happier as a work out for your mind, fine ten percent happier where every listen to pot casts so
They will be fun. Do take a little better step
in time. I want to die.
in to your exploration of long term partnerships. What brought
together and also your deep dive,
asking a lot of different couples. How they have endured.
really curious about you individually, a little bit first mars.
I know that as a kid apparently, your nickname was miss independence. Yeah
tell me how that came about. Oh, I guess because I was you know, strong, headed and wanted to do everything myself, and so my dad nicknamed me miss independence, but you know whenever and I it was have loving and half you know
I go right already. You know I just was very strong willed, which
Actually, he he fostered. He like my sister and brother night. You know to have our own opinions and set, but anyway, my my nickname.
it was independence,
Which is interesting right because your dad very strong personality in front of the camera, especially when you're a kid and its
like also there in europe
french relationship. Your dad was the one who sort of they both decided to put his career forward.
and your mom primarily became a mom and had started her career, but then pretty much put it on home right
well my dad they met in Detroit.
On a radio show
and then a married. I was born in Detroit. Wasn't there for more than a few months, but
My father wanted to go where the bigger night clubs, where he was a nice.
the former, as was a radio personality.
Are you trying to make a living, but, like clubs was his passion,
so you want to go to Chicago. They were bigger clubs, obviously than in detroit answer. My mom had to make a decision as to whether she wanted to marry my dad and go
chicago and wherever else
was gonna go and
her little fifteen minute radio show which she did and ass. They got married and had me, and then they went to Chicago and my dad
his career there and then
the great a blast. Although the great agent who represented frank sinatra, Judy garland, Danny K and all the big shots
so my dad and brought him to hollywood, so that was kind of our trust
Actually we were moving around a lot.
and so we really were re. My message, a brother. I were really rayson, beverly hills
The kid: what was your sense of what
average man what a long term partnership men, what was when you looked at that did you,
the sense for this is that the model for these are the expectations yeah.
thought it wasn't just a model, it was what marriage was. You know. I was like
to me it was that was it a man, the husband,
his work, his dreams, what he wanted to do in life and
wise was
sort of
supplementary character.
The play,
and so she raised the children which was important. She turned
the home and she took care of everybody and for that in all she had a family shared security.
She had a nice husband, a good marriage
But I knew early on that marriage
debbie for me, because I thought
I was marriage and if that was marriage, I didn't
I want to do it
I wanted a career I wanted to travel and I wanted a cattle
I do my father did, which is doing
to do, and I knew a minute
and I knew, but I realized, I thought that well, you know
I'm not gonna build marry. A man
going to stay home with the children and take care of the house, so I will probably not ever marry that kind of what my feeling was, and I was
sad about it. I just didn't want it. I didn't want it. I didn't we
play that role
and I had a lot of boyfriends and
went to london and
play in for about a year, and I was very
independent and I was having a
time. In my life I love
my work and I wanted
I wanted my work and I always felt bad from my mom. Did she gave up her
my mother was a good singer and she
singing, but meanwhile
that was her choice, and so this was my choice
why
I really do believe if I had not met phil. I would not have married
It really wasn't.
anybody that I everyone out with an eye,
get marilla was forty two years or so
The time I was twenty
till you're really seriously dating a really consider high school in early years of collars, I think on our seriously dating as a young woman
I was never looking for
husband and, as I look
that, wasn't anybody that I would have wanted to spend my life
with their own lovely people, educated man,
were good at their work
and all the things would just wasn't for me. Yet
I'm curious on on your side as a kid, especially here when your family unit in your upbringing. I know you end up in catholic school.
Did you have a sensibility or model for what a long term relationship was like, even in the youngest years
we thought about that? I
believing that a few said
how do you do-
for the rest of your life, so young
force was never
ended my consciousness. There
they have been an ant too.
It's divorced in our family.
I don't remember.
But I do remember crawling over somebody
get the communion at me,
That was usually the realm.
Who was divorced so
It never occurred to me that this is gonna, be my job and only cow. It was I mean,
It not only was a divorce, but
I suddenly had.
For sons.
older myself.
And I didn't know what to do with them. I mean
help em all with your with their homework.
So. I had all these. I was still on the air,
tap dancing every day for an hour
and.
yeah rating home to make sure that they know they got
home from school all right in that whatever
Hunger they may have had. I was I had to take care of.
But I had a very unusual
Early married life.
In which I suddenly found myself to be a single parent and I really
it was an eye opener for me.
I realized what women,
had been doing all all these years.
right in front of me and I didn't realize.
How stressful
That was.
And how
it was a full time job. You I mean here they were lie.
Breathing people.
yet you as if to say, I'm hungry dad. What are we gonna have supper?
all of those things came down on my head at once.
So that was
I grew up in a hurry,
and that really you know that set up the time
you and Marlowe really connect. You know you're both in the world of entertainment, you're, both very forward face
fell on tv and on a daily basis. At that point, Marlowe has
hit, show and then involved in so many different projects in an hour
becoming a really strong and public feminist and voice for feminism and
there's this fateful day and nineteen. Seventy seven, where Marlowe from what
Jen
promoting a buck,
when you land on phil show.
Promoting a movie call seeds and fill had been divorce about for years. By that time,.
and why
going on a talk, show I wasn't expecting to further.
With anybody. I was on a tour. I was I
and other cities that aren't member. But I know the next city was Denver colorado. That was my
next city? So
I did his show and an eye
his show was not in l a at the time, so it wasn't that familiar with him. I knew that he was great. I knew that his show was a must, stop in and be a part of, because
he had an hour's show an end.
procedures also disguise the biggest thing
in the mid west you have to do, is show so and now
it was kind of daunting in a one hour, one guest, I think
Was that interesting version, nine, a m.
But anyway I was in the green room waiting.
to start, and he came in and was putting on his jacket
and when he walked in the room
I really was a quiet
chemical reaction. I have it here. This big
beautiful blue eyes and his shadow
White hair is putting on his navy blue jacket and, oh he just
He looked like a choir boy and she was
I think you have three catholic to understand this
she was for me immediately and impure thoughts.
So we had an instant reaction
and it's interesting jonathan, because
we interviewed so many couples for
Work and then for our planet cast
This girl, what makes a marriage last podcast called double date and many people,
had that moment where they met each other
and or even saw each other a bit.
crystal so
jan is when it was
Eighteen years old,
he's married, a janitor. I think it's
fifty years
He saw her on the beach. She was sawyer ball with a friend and he saw this girl in a pink bikini walked by and he said, was friend I'm going to marry her. I mean these
these people ill.
Do you have that reaction? It's it's amazing. How many of our meeting,
yeah.
Malcolm Gladwell road, wrote the book blink
in which he makes the point that first impressions
are for many of us everything
That was the case in a lot of the couples that we featured in our book yet
that inciting incident that moment fascinates me as well. I'm curious you know people can
back and actually watch that clip watch the original conversation which you know
answer. Please an interview, but really it's obvious as a viewer
there's something else going on there at the same time- and this answer both of you sense that too, when you rat
that episode, you know marla you
move onto denver as you share the europe on this tour we going city to city. What are you both thinking, ass
dolly that was interesting. That was nice or there's something that needs to be followed up here. I was a bit shaken by it.
Because I was leaving an
I had this feeling about this man and I would never see him again. He did
Chicago I lived in LOS angeles was on my way to denver hat mazurka one night stop and I
I just have this very issue.
feeling about them. I siphon
physical,
of how
good looking. I thought it was and whatever else was going on,
likely inside of me in
something about talent that is very
It's an aphrodisiac. You know when some
it does something. Well I mean if europe
carpenter or an actor or whatever,
wherever you are, you do it. Well, it's it's it's very alluring and he was so good in
at the show I mean I, as I say I had seen. The show
and the way he orchestrated the whole thing had such confidence.
He was interviewing me with a lot of confidence in saddle
fair than then he jumped off this
age and ran into the audience and talk to them, and then he took a call
from a collar I mean just was like a
conductor of an orchestra had absolutely not
climb about anything any come back to me? Go back to them
huge amount of confidence. Confidence is sexy, so I already was physically attracted him and then is
his talent was very alluring.
and when the show was over, it was like it was
hard, because here was this one hour of intense for
guess on him and his intense focus on me and then it was well go by.
And, as a rule over the woman in your life is very lucky. In asia we are just fascinating
and then I left- and I
I felt well
I'm never see him again. I felt that in
I said: do there was a
of his produces was walking me out to my car, which is they always you show you how to get going,
I said, while he is really an attack
The man and she's india an end and he's available
I should really
She's said yeah he's divorced and he has a poor kids and I said,
That piece of information so lizzie wasn't married,
and then only then I gotta my car and left town
the next morning. I found a no after you called me yeah, as I call back from
written in my son caverns hand, Milo Thomas called
We called me that night before, but I was out, as you said, gallivanting in chicago rough, so so
when you, when you called the night before why, what what was
Did you want to happen? Well,
he and I already.
I'd already measure as a bad thought.
And so I certainly had interest in her
and you know I didn't want to be here
I didn't want to be pushy about that was matter.
But you had a little speech, you said ready to say, but
guess I was the idea.
and she was. She was a great gas because not only was sheer
entertainment star and
looking, but she was
up to date on important issues, feminism most certainly
and my audience nervously-
nineteen
seven
you're. My audience was largely female daytime audience,
And she was perfect as a guest.
Pretty important, if it's one guess
for the whole our right, so I use
I used to say, backing
those days I used to say:
she was a hangover gas
if I was over
You know all I do is clear. My throat and she carried along,
call me, and you said well,
I come out to allay some time. I'd like to
take it a lunch, a luxury I dinner
sound a little wearing gazelle. I sat
I thought to myself: oh my god
gonna take forever waiter comes there, lay them.
lunch and he lives in Chicago.
So I said to him well
you come and visit me in denver, I'm I'm desperate cabin,
to live as denver far gash again with ivory chicago- you don't know- is that so he had done a plane.
and he came to have dinner with me and
and the sort of was a continuation.
of the hour we spent on the air we
We talked a mile a minute
Latin common will,
Both ways by
my old catholic parents. My dad was in toledo he's from Cleveland we're very
till I get our politics
much alike in and we just
We just hit it off. That moment began,
three year relationship.
Vienna, which was mostly.
long distance in committee
kind of relationship, and then we may
three years later, but even then I I didn't really want to get married. I was
what you say crazy about him, but I wasn't
Admitting that I was in love, but I was
I really want to be with him and we did-
everything we could I mean he had these four boys lived with them? Is a wonderful daughter lives with his ex wife,
and so he was causally
trying to see the daughter being with his boys. Coming to l a maybe bring a couple of the boys with him that were too young to stay home. I mean it was it was. It was rough going, but but we did it. We went back and forth from chicago to l a every weekend.
and I was raising
for sons?
the issue scared me really. I wasn't sure what to do with them.
And I was I am not proud of
fact that I was.
I was kind of a crazed parent. You know and
One of the sun set them marlowe on one occasion when he was at our own, Michael yet Michael said,
I like it when you're here.
We were a little happier
In many ways it to raise-
were boys and then be on your own
tremendous amount of pressure.
And I know also you know-
You're doing this and, as you said, largely long distance and finding ways to navigate being together, which can be in
terribly hard for a lot of people at some point in that that window and are you
Some kind of hidden beaumont, where you thought it was just too much. It was too hard, there's too much difference between us and we need to break up and you did but that didn't last
woke up for about three months we were we have been.
Think to sacramento or somewhere fill with eta
a remote of his show. I think it was in sacramento and
and I had gone there to join them because it was a quick jumped formulae and
after that weekend. We both
You know what this is just issue:
so hard, I'm an I was there.
Reactive, then I produced about twelve. Will these for television, and I,
producing them in starring in them I was
really committed and he,
was very committed to a daily show and his children.
And he's a look, I gotta get my boys. I got.
them raised up a catechisms, your high school
I can't be leaving them all the time, I'm very guilty about that, and you know I think you're the greatest and everything, but it just doesn't an ice said,
same thing, and we both knew that didn't work.
And so I went back to my home in beverly hills and he were bad tissue
go and who so we we did not speak for three minutes.
And we made it a real break and I was miserable
and I found a later so was he he lent
Then also dating girls, it known before, as did I,
but it was of no denying it that there was no replacement for him and
after about three months, we're
decided. We had to find a way to put our lives together so who? Who
that first move like probably data
You know why you did what you like.
You were you at the time I was in bed. It was three o clock in the morning,
you have a better marine avail or somewhere skiing. What the boys
member what you said. I know you do because you said it
yeah. I said that I never thought
I'd- miss somebody as much as I miss you. You said I never that anyone would be this irreplaceable behalf. I probably did then thank you for remembering so that
prompt you to both can realise okay, so this has to happen. We have to face
it out, but what he said I never end
one could be this irreplaceable. What in no about phil
Is he really says remains and he doesn't he doesn't?
flourish-
I mean I'm sure they were all kinds of
words?
Around that he could have said, but I picked up the phone and said hello.
And he said he didn't say hello.
after not hearing him for three months.
Famous. I never thought anyone would be this irreplaceable. It hit my heart,
because it's exactly what I was feeling an ice.
Did you cry on the phone and he started to cry and then he's?
I'm I'm scheme with the boys and in the next
couple of weeks. When I can get aware I'd like to come visit,
and so then he did and then and then what
I'll get out and the end of the thing on his mind, most with a guy
my boys to high school,
I've gotta get every one of them gradually
go and that
again was very appealing.
Sponsible. Man was responsible to his children, who is responsible.
he was in love with me, but he was responsible.
and though.
So we kind of mapped out our life know that
I would move to new york and we'll get him.
apartment
and
He wouldn't be able to move for about four years.
And then he would move is whole show.
And the kids at all being caught
then and that's it
he moved his show
yeah. I was a whole. It was really a revolution.
In many ways.
First of all, I.
I really didn't plan to be in new york, but the
all was growing in
NBC made.
The station and thirty
rock was a seductive redress for me personally at that time,
And so off we went
Well,
certainly.
It certainly made the relationship easier when it made us
allow me. I will never long distance feature.
I mean we got to really the the
islets and a flight attendants gutted call us
our first name.
Chicago new york chicago near
every weekend everywhere,
it was. It was me we're on an airplane, a lot of us and am lately. We pick do you
because I said to fill
I can't really work in Chicago. I can.
Continue my career in both
work in l a and you said: well, I can.
Work in new york and d c
that I can't work and l I'm not interested,
and in doing a show about entertainment
in a way. He would have some people as entertainers like me, but that was
the base of his show the base of the show was really
politics, and what this
In a word. The social fabric of the country had ralph nato on all the time. Jesse Jackson, glorious dynamo. Those were really the debate.
of his show so
and senators and presidents and
and had a general motors, and they really were not living in l a so that wasn't the place for him
and so is that I can live in new york.
Her dc
I can live in new york or l a so there it was new york was the city
So that's what we moved to.
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you end up in new york together, eventually get married and start building alive, but
occasion of your marriage is also interesting, especially for marla, because you had been
a local outspoken voice of feminism for many years, and still are
There were certain assumptions I think about the fact that you had identified for a long time as it as an adult single woman without and a need to have to get married
when you actually got married. It said
like there were certain people who were very happy for you and then there are others who
to a certain sense betrayed
Yes! Well I mean the people that I knew were very happy for me
Gloria Steinem and all my best friends
that was feminists were very happy for me,
there were women that I
No,
The country who wrote to me and said how could you be merry?
I mean I've always been able to say to my mother.
marlo thomas, isn't crazy and she's not married.
So I had some have become.
You know, I'm
a symbol for other women who didn't want to marry that it was ok not to be married, because I wasn't a weirdo and I wasn't, I don't know whatever I didn't have a
A unicorn on my head, so I was a normal person and
What did the passengers say? I'm apply all right, we were, we run our plane,
the plan to honeymoon in greece and
We ve been very quiet, nobody knew where we were getting married, we got married and my parents living room was,
Thirty five people, my family and fills family, and that was all
next morning, we're on our way to greece and fill had gone to the bathroom, and I was sitting there with my engage
the ring and my wedding ring at all.
and this woman from across the aisle said to me. Are you marlo thomas, and I said yes and she said? Are you married.
and I said yes thinking on the blushing bride, the first person, it's gonna, know that I married outside of my family and she said well, how could you get married? I am so disappointed and I was
struck by that you know,
I thought, oh, my god, what have I done? I've little these people down
phil came back from the bathroom and I was
certainly I told them. What is what?
So that is it what woman were issued and
anyway. I got over it, but it was
It was striking that the data-
of male said that to me and a lotta, and that woman on the airplane it was just
I was shocking. I just
I never knew that I never knew. That was what what
was standing for out there. I wasn't meaning to stand for anything when you finally got married.
and you told your mother, let
we're about to get married.
And that you were going to marry
a man with four sons,
She said, oh, what a joke on you.
that was pretty funny. It's you.
Like the joke was on everyone, because you have now been together, for I guess it's over forty years in marriage ends
You decided recently to write a book, but I'm curious
which really explored, which wits sat where you sat down with forty different couples who had been too
therefore a very long time in and really serve said what will what's going on here. What was the
he's in what was the inciting incident fer you undertaking that project. Well, for years, people had
start to talk about our marriage and we never wanted to be really.
I feel that it was
strong by its privacy.
And so we didn't talk about
it in and then they would ask us know, what's the secret sauce, what do you do that different work and we
think of anything we did. There was any different. We certainly made
a lot of life
combinations for each other?
moved to new york. He moved to new york. We did
We think we could debate together
other than that in a we loved each other. We like each other. We have
the time together, I couldn't really
my finger on anything
and so what we are about to turn away on our thirty night,
anniversary. We heard about a couple right that we're getting a divorce
the blow
Thirty, nine years and you get divorced- and we said well
How does that? Have a david very like twenty five years we were married, thirty nine and was
our thirty night anniversary and we said how does it happen? When are you saying that you're gonna get a divorce after twenty six twenty seven years?
so we started talking about that. What what did they do wrong and what are we do right and had it had it?
people stay together. We just didn't know, especially people who are
One of them is not just backing down, but there are. Both of them are very involved in the marriage.
and so we decided to talk to a lot of people,
There had been married along time. Does you can't learn from seventy the married five years, but you get you real one
the very twenty years you ve got something.
You can say something that you learned and so that
we decided to do for people around
the table and we thought.
Maybe the interviews would go fifteen minutes now we did not,
they provide an hour, but they were like three hours will never
fifteen and finally, I would say, I'm sorry-
but we really have about it. Was you know
when we opened up, they opened right. It was easy
here for them.
with us about person
issues.
Get made the interviews more interesting. Well,.
I don't think they would have ever been a successful if we had in fact
We decided to do. It was my idea and fill wasn't all that forward
he said to me. I don't want to talk about our marriage. We ve always
private about this. I dont want,
I'll go out and I said to him: I mean you learn after forty years that you're not gonna,
have your mate disseminate. I want to do so as it you don't have to I'll talk about.
I want to talk about they'll talk and you'll, be there to ask questions and so forth, but as we
It started it was self,
and it was so much like a double date. Then you know
billy. Crystal talked about
Seeing his wife on the beach and unknown until talked about meeting me on the show, and then somebody else talked about being jealous mark Consuela us Kelly.
cyprus has been talking about his jealousy until tat
but his jealousy and little by little healed.
Up as they opened up and they opened up as we opened up in it became just like you would, on a double day. No one cup
can't do all the talking everybody talks.
And whenever he starts talking, they said
revealing things, and it's it's fun. You know
when we started out. We said this.
We know how to book, because a house
to book would be like a pamphlet.
it's really a what book. What did you do when this
What what did
curious, sedgwick and Kevin bacon do when they lost all their money too,
to a Bernie madoff. You know what what did
Jackson and Jackie jackson do when he had a baby out of wedlock in a what did Chris
do we generally courtesy found, are generally curtis hadda
an addiction problem million. What did each and then
and how did they get better and what did the solemn birds do when her
one at home rang and the voice
on the other end said you're
when just landed is plain
in the hudson river,
I mean, and of course the world fell on their house,
how did they adjust to that?
so where all the couples hat and is it
funded talk too, like so
berger and John makin rowan pad
smythe. So weird-
Jimmy carter and rosalyn carter, all kinds of
well from all walks of life, and when we got
Off the road
phil said,
thing he notice was what oh
people wanted the marriage
You can have one person
the kind of dragging
the other along
in the relationship it
He does take this
this fundamental? Now that I think about it, both partners have to watch the marriage equal
because I know I'm sure you ve seen it Jonathan as we have
in many marriages. Is one person that sort of doing all the accommodating, putting it altogether making life
interesting, inviting
people over you know,
china
making our being the one that makes up all the time that those marriages don't work.
The other person just feels the first
that's doing all the giving and fixing,
becomes exhausted and has no nourishment both p
have to be nourish. That
what nourishes the marriage and
figured that out along the way that one,
Grissom can't be the one that always says, I'm sorry
Let's try to fix this that that can't be at both people have to to
egg accommodations, put that that the other
and is not you,
and they're gonna have different desires and different needs and each for
It has to accommodate that, and I think
Accommodation was one of the words that we came.
the road with
thought, and I had never thought of that word before
Did it really is one of the secrets to a happy marriage is a
happy accommodation that you saying in a what
This is why we need this is what he wants is a witch who she
It is what she has to do
you. Don't have that kind of thing.
You know I remember one time I was
very busy and running around,
so mad calf
and a friend of mine?
This friend told me a male friend who was our friend of both of us said: phil
I god: doesn't that drive you crazy that she's running about deadened and phil?
It did this man, don't rain on her for aid.
and had so tat. We need to remember that check
edit
don't touch me that feel had said that to him without
me and earshot.
Said all ran on parade, so that's very low
being in very caring.
He wants me to have what I want
and I want him to have what he wants.
That's what you do is apparent
spouses. Don't often do that free
other. I mean almah.
And dad will do anything to give their children everything they want to get what they want. The best education is there's a car when they have all the stuff that you possibly can do for your children
but we don't sometimes apply that to our spouse.
and if we did a little more of that for us
I was even I know
from women that I've met even to the point where the husband realises that the wife will
want to go back to school.
and they need to find money in the budget,
I have to go back to school and
Often when the money is allotted its
the children to go to school and this and that, but sometimes a wife wants to go back to school and
find a way to make that possible, for her is a very big
Act of love and accommodation,
and I'm not a lot of women who have been an that and marriage counselling. Yes
that's a real act of love.
You know when one partner feels.
You a little bit threatened about whatever reason.
and suggests marriage counselling that
that really says I love you
This, alas, there was a
That regulation happen. There is every couple of brian plants in his wife robin dear in and
Patrick Harrison, David burka, several couples
the marriage, housing anderson
it's really help them Brian.
and caused a tune up when we needed to end up with go see the marriage counselor I mean
what interests me is also marlowe, what you,
just described as wanting
for your partner. What so often apparent is seen as wanting for their children and be
there to help figure out how both people can be fully express, can be caught?
and can be alive and be themselves in the relationship? I think
It's so powerful and, what's interesting to me, is
is the re. Imagining of marriage from what
saw the model to be growing up. This was
of redefining it as no? This is the way that I can understand being in this type of relationship,
but re imagining as something that is more more equal me
or more generous earlier broom air
The definition that I grew up with was it was a very tight place.
It didn't have any
windows open
when we were married and still commuting. I had an aunt who said to me: that's not a marriage, and I thought to myself
This is why I never married because there's
too tight definition of marriage, as you know, in other words, a marriage. People live in the same city. If you like
and two different cities and new community back and forth in her?
that was not a marriage.
And that was helpful
me, too, realise that's what we did
we define marriage for ourselves and that
everybody has to do. When I was
student.
at the university of notre dame in the fifties.
We had a man
its counselling session, all males
we sat me audience. Young men
couple on the stage served as the advisers and the man said.
Secret through a happy marriage is find a good wife there
was that with marriage counselor at noted aim in the fifties
Is it always it's all our responsibility to find a good wife?
first, we are waiting for
and you were lighted by seventeen or asia- have accepted this
brilliant council,
As important because it was coming from a married-
If I'm a good, why? Ok, let me get out and find a good what I mean
it's interesting also in the context of the book, another podcast, where your sharing some of these conversations, because you it sounds like
very deliberately sought out a really
worse array of people to sit down with so having
down with so many people now across different ages, different colors,
different ethnicities,
sexual at ease and different genders. Uk.
Able to see so many different patterns in so many different, repeated experiences and I'm cool
is about those common patterns that you saw across every one. One of the big curiosities is
what you saw around vulnerability and the role
the vulnerability in long term relationships will. I was surprised by the
the male vulnerability. You know
a few minutes ago when Phil was this
having the phone call to me.
it's so vulnerable for him to say
I never read, they will be this. Your place of all was a very vulnerable thing to say:
I mean he was saying, I'm I'm
without you it's
for you to say it because does so personal, then I think than for men
that would, though, just not I mean that's. Why did we d, be you and me, with
our taught is expressed their feelings manner.
Men are taught not adversity,
only sissies cry and all that so that the thing is is that
a couple of the men
many of the men were very vulnerable as vulnerable as phil was too
that to me on the phone.
ted danson on his third marriage.
To marry steam virgin has on her second, and they have a wonderful marriage or a fabulous couple did married thirty years now.
And I said to him: how did you have the
optimism to get married a third time I mean I could barely get married once
And he said
I knew I had to stop the lying
as it were, you lying about
is it well. I was unfaithful at one thing he's a good. I was like
about. Who I was going?
I had this image of myself ass. A man and a man
and feel bad about anything, a man
Does it l begets rejected, be bounces right back, a man doesn't does
cry. A man doesn't have a bad days of what it is that I would come to the door at night
just having had a horrible day right
held so much pain,
but I wouldn't minutes why just command like everything was great,
So the women that I was never knew they all I was
They never saw the real me. They only saw this.
version of me that I wanted to show them. He said what
when I met Mary,
Mary Stuart and his wife. He said
I realise it. She didn't play that dance. She was really looking at me and expecting more.
Did that the real needs, the authentic ted and that's what
them fallen. Levin
why they ve been together thirty years that was such an interesting
think them to say, and I think a lot of men do that
they don't want to show how much they hurt
how much they get battered around women. Do women cry is a terrible day were in a way,
no trouble with that.
Even strong women like me, we don't. We don't see that as a weakness. We see that has been telling the truth.
men, see that is as weakness and that keeps them
from being good married partners and then the above
but of all people really showed his vulnerability.
His mother left would, he was twelve, is mother brand.
it was his father's best friend, so
twelve years old he realized allow were, in this alone.
and then they got married anyone into the navy or the marine environment which, while he was
in the marines or whatever his wife left, you.
Then it and then he went all I'm alone and then his.
second, marriage also broke up after
had a child and she left
he was firmly in the belief
that we're all alone in this world- and then he married this
If a woman, elsa Walsh they've been married over thirty years,
what he wanted, enliven an
Could give to her what she gave to him? You know he found
in a way to have
a good relationship but
up until then, he had been really scarred,
You know by all these women leaving him his mother and his two wives.
And was very vulnerable mary.
I just fell in love with him. I bob woodward
you think, above all over does this guy, like my wallet and who really goes after people. I haven't
awakening to thee,
consequences of jealousy
I was fascinated with the mark and swallow story who called is,
from Boston
he was in new york.
And he said what are you doing and she said well,
cleaning, the apartment, cleaning, the
Bathroom and he thought that
answer was kind of vision,
some literally got on an airplane without telling her
flew home got to the apartment went up to them.
Floor and ran
asked her. Who was she was standing at the door.
looking further
tall, dark stranger behind the drapery.
and it was a reminder of how that feature, which I think, a lot of people, some menace
actually suffer from in a marriage is draining
it can where you out I had,
jealousy
When marlowe made a movie with Chris christophersen.
And they had a love, see.
Well I mean
that love scene, I thought, lasted like.
Maybe an hour and a half
for a minute yeah, so
I I was jealous and
You know it is I wanna jealous of a more things than that
he was jealous about a lot of I was here. I mean here's herself, the actress
was a bad thought when I first met her
I can only imagine how she was made
by other men?
and she was meeting a lot of men in her work.
so this was. This was something I had to get over and I took a while, but-
recall how draining at work.
jealousy really saps your strength and
if you can just get continent.
Where are you not
specious, all the time. It makes life a lot better
and a lot better and it's very hard on the person.
the jealousy is directed because
jealousy is not about what you're doing it's about what the man or woman, whose jealous
Has got going inside of their midst there as feels that confidence is so lacking
confidence at the role
their own suspicious nature paranoia
It has nothing to do with what you're doing and that's
that's hard on a person because
you think you're. So what am I doing? Am I doing something wrong that I do what I said. It's it's difficult
was very glad when Anne
it wasn't a long time in public was somewhere in the middle of our marriage together that you kind of drop them
Can you tell me what a relief it was that you felt the trusted,
to feel that in right I mean I really deep. I felt
had graduated to some different level of maturity, but it did make
For me, it made life some
easier? If you can get past there.
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Yeah
one of the other patterns that
I seem to see come up a lot with different couples who you sat down with and also, as I said here with both of you
I'm noticing in a very strong way, is that they see each other
you see each other, and I can see you visually that those listening can will just hear this. But what I can see is you keep looking at each other
you keep noticing each other
We had a little while back a couple named Julian John got men on the show,
had been researching love and marriage for decades. Together
One is clinician and one is an academic and there
something that's commonly known as the love lab
they ve done a lot of research and one of the things that they found. That they were actually able to predict with ninety.
five percent accuracy, whether marriage with survives six years out.
and when they really looked at what what were they looking at
They notice that people were making bids for each other's attention and affection all day long and where
people turned towards those bids. It was
really good relationship when people didn't notice them or even turned against them. It was terrible,
What they found was that what they called the
asters of these long term relationships.
notice, the bids and they turned towards them. Eighty six percent of the time where,
as the what they call the disaster relationships. Most of them ended they only.
Towards the bids. Thirty, three percent of the time.
And it seems like it-
marion and dated my wife and we ve, been together for close to thirty years, were merry twenty. Four and look.
at both of you, I'm watching you noticed each other
You know it's! It's literally you're you're looking at me, but you're also keep looking at each other. You keep noticing the different things, the quirks the things
I'm wondering if that resonates with you as something critical
I don't know that I notice that
I don't have a conscious a conscious feeling about that
but I guess, as you now the to express it
I guess
contact eye contact
the revealing feature of anybody's behavior. I admit I mean in terms of the couples away any view rather remember noticing that,
but they did they didn't mind you. I was so nervous about hoping that the interview would be going well
and after over an hour when we would finally say thank you good, bye, three hours.
yeah, really ever more. They were, but
we're fine, I mean I there was
couple of them that I didn't want to be over. I really enjoyed it in a couple of people
We state over had a meal with them and had
glass of wine a minute. Was it
This fund we made new friends, it was,
interesting in that way. So
with the m,
as we sit here today, your both working on the second project, which is a podcast called double date, which is real,
The extension to a certain extent of this book
and where your sharing the
Video of a lot of these conversations
I'm wondering as you revisit these conversations and you sit down and you re listen to them, and then
put them out into the world how you are experiencing, whether you have its remit
Did you have anything or there are things that you actually didn't notice or see the first time
through that you're sort of revisiting, I think I just was very touched by them that they would
Give so much it themselves.
You said that a one whether he was surprised right,
I noticed how much they opened up,
We offered something yeah about ass personal
that seem to open the door. For I tell you what
having interviewed one on one on my television chauffeur
thirty years partnering,
for an interview.
Really has its advantages
it means that the subject, especially thirty, two of them, to one too
is more likely to engage.
conversation with you.
That's going to have often-
of personal information that we did,
made him over, the head
who expose of of themselves they offered. It
and often with enthusiasm.
It was a real
discovery firm? I think both of us
it was fun, and you know after we
we ve been interviewed by people for the press or tell
vision interviews and they
said to us, especially the print people. Is it
never would have gotten. Those
result of people,
I, the amazing thing is: is that.
you were able to get them to tell really personal things.
And we said well, I think it because we didn't really go in. There was reporters
we women, there was another couple.
two couples: hang
together having it.
Glass of wine or a cup of tea in some nash. Is that everybody put out when we want to their homes? They put out things for us. It was
Coupled aid was to couples as a matter of william if we express personal stories about ourselves
they would do the same
it's amazing other doors adorbs to blow open, that's different than a reporter.
The porter reset your one sided conversation.
They asked questions you answer. You know
We often ask them: how do you fight? Because it's not
It's not just tell you fight is how to combat from one and a lot of people. Can you know there are
people in this world who go days without speaking to each other.
I mean that is so beyond anything I could do I mean I, I
did not speak, maybe for an hour
I have to get back to it on that
people who do that in but jane
scarborough said
When you find yourself arguing, he said,
She said I didn't say I didn't make
citing circular around and around somebody
should say: oh, let's go,
this? Can down the road and its
and so superficial at the time
but not long after the interview during one of arguments.
What did I say this it? I sit
Let's kick, this can down the road and, of course, we
started laughing at that
This is great. It in
something to stop it. Didn't you say no, you said I said you were there you put in,
of no importance and will you all remembered tourism now, but
Such an interesting thing to have
codes to stop? Stop any of that sort of bickering
Then one of our guests said the viewer
if you're having an argument the best way to get over it.
Is you should sleep
turkey, that turkey, we,
what about that for a while to hand.
That is your issue. My
I guy here had? Is
love the add this simple answers there, another yiddish word so there's a
word in yiddish, which I is pronounced now his.
And it translates roughly two, the
why that you feel bore somebody that you love so heartedly that you experience their success as your own and I think that's a lot of what you been talking about right,
and that's also called felling right, yeah yeah,
and often we talk about it in the context of children, yet it
I have that feeling for a partner in a life partner? I think right is a really beautiful thing. It's a it's, a it's, a very joyful thing and it feeds you. It feeds each person if I feel it for him that feeds me.
And it feeds him to know that I'm feeling that sub both people get nourished from it.
I really think it.
Marriage and love like a plant,
they need to be watered,
you can't just say I do in and walk away and
figure out. What are you gonna do with your life uneasily water all the time
with love and attention and affection and end observation in
even interrogation? How are you feeling? What are you feeling? How can I help you all
that is going on all the time,
We need those exact words, but
attention at the other person really do you know sometimes I say to fill a feeble
not feeling well or something I'll say how
feeling it he'll say fine and I'll say there is no information and fine, I mean. Are you feeling
are you feeling words that feel there is a feeling that and so,
is is engaging in it. If somebody wants to know how you feel you know,
When are you do feels to the other person knows with
what state you're in and that's difficult for, especially an irishman,
even when I would complain a my complaints to my pet.
Hence my mother, especially.
We're never validated
If I said, I'm tired.
My mother, would say we're all tired
You know you weren't, you work,
There was no respect given today.
Complaint that you just share a feeling. Tat dear feelings, were all tired, ok, really
is another way to say shut up it doesn't.
Incur it'll cares india. It doesn't encourage sharing feelings. Yet, sir,
I feel that this is also a good place for us to come full circle and our conversation, I'm gonna
give out. One final question: we're sitting here in this container in the name of the show, is a good life project. If I offer up the phrase to live a good life for each of you, what comes out
To live a good life. Well, I
I think a good life has to have purpose in it.
That you have,
something that you work for
that you dream about net you killed fulfilled about to me. That's
part of the good life
and to share it with some one to have someone there,
you know you know.
You're back
I have also also felt that marriage and
relationships are a cushion of life. So
life needs a cushion.
You need to know that, if everything is
or sadder. Follow
parker you ve lost someone, you love and all other things can happen in life there,
disappointing and hard.
You have a cushion, you have somebody. There was gonna, you know so,
what you through, that give you up a soft warm space.
A shoulder a hand and arm all the things
Because it's a hard world, it
the world is changing all the time in how it feels to
people, how it feels towards certain kinds of people. It is really
something constant. I think a good life has to
constancy in it that you can count on.
I wrote him out of it
agri about a hundred years ago.
And I began the first chapter by saying what
My children, please me, I didn't tell him.
That's an old catholic irish. I yes axiom
And I realize now.
How wrong that is.
To tell your children that Europe,
These, when they please you.
Is a buoyant effort,
Them they feel enlarged by
They suddenly become
in their innermost cells, more confident in
raised and wondered what a gift that is for them well
for my kids, it's a little late, but you know
Somewhere along the way, somebody said
too soon, all too,
its mark. So that's how you answered the good life yeah, I think you're
Let me let me rephrase that, actually, when you
think about your life.
When you think about what makes it truly good, what do you think about.
we'll have a professional answer to that. But I'm afraid you don't get it visit like well you he there
we have to go to the first well,.
It's not about professional.
About children, what makes you well when I ski,
I feel so free.
I'm going over the mobile models in.
I'm getting these that I do it for you, Jonathan. He referred.
It's all right. You did very well, you really didn't forget it. We did the best you can. Maybe they just take their partner matthew out
I wouldn't know the wind up on the router or, more than once tell you
I think in the exchange between new, while, while you are answering that question, we actually had the answer in what happened between both of you.
the energy of love and support that
about goes a long way to answering the question, but oh thank you. Thank you both thanks
Jonathan. So before you leave if you'd love this episode safe bet, you have also love the conversation that we had with julie and John god, men through the founders of the legendary love lab and their deep dive into what love and what long term relationship two marriages really
are all about. You'll, find a link to Julia and John's episode in the show notes, even if you don't listen now be sure to click and download. So it's easy to play when you're on the go and, of course, if you haven't already done so, be sure to follow the good life project in your favorite listening app, so you'll never miss an episode and then share the good life project, love with friends, because when ideas become conversations that lead to action, that's when real change takes hold, see you next time.
Transcript generated on 2023-06-17.