So one of today's guests, iconic actress producer, arthur and activists, Marlowe thomas, never wanted to marry. She saw what she believed as the way merit had to be. person giving up their dream for another and just knew it wasn't her and then one. Full day in nineteen. Seventy seven sheep as an hour long gas on the legendary daytime talk show hosting My other guests today filled donoghue. Both were smitten, to put it mildly. They sense something powerful had happened, but neither of them knew that that conversation, air before millions of yours on daytime tv would effectively be a first date that, with to a marriage that has now lasted more than for decades and more recently, reflecting on what makes a relationship last that long. They got really curious and began to set up double date with many celebrity couples that they know and others that they didn't people lake,

Davis and her husband, actor Julius tenant filmmaker our reiner and his wife, Michel award winning journalist, bob woodward and elsa walls. dancing and mary steam burgeon meal. the carers and his akershem husband, David burka, John leg was ammo and his wife, justine, and so many others- and our long conversations. They went so deep, so fast got so vulnerable and open at times really hysterically funny. They turned the interviews into the best selling book. What makes a marriage last and now those conversations and more are featured in their new original podcast series double date. We had so much fun talking about those early moments in their lives and relationships. Was really going on each one of their heads and hearts as they sat there across from each other, trying to figure out what is really happening here in the early days and how those thoughts in conversations than their relationship is really evolved.

Her time and what they learned when they sat down with so many people to uncover what it means, what it takes to be an relationship for a really long time so excited to share this conversation with you. I'm Jonathan field- and this is good- like project met. Yet the global private aviation leader is known for personalizing every detail of your travels because net, yet standard is not just to meet their definition of perfection. It's to exceed yours discover more at net jets, dot com

good law project is supported by the economists, so the world seems to be moving faster than ever: climate economics, politics, ai and culture. Wherever you look, events are unfolding at a rapid pace and it's hard to stay on top of it, which is why I love that now, for the first time, you can get a one month, free trial of the economist, so you won't miss a thing I have literally been reading the economist I want to say for decades. I love that it covers more than just economics and finances you'll find coverage on topics from politics to science, to technology, even arts and the environment. The economist offers this global perspective with really incredible clarity and deeper analysis, so you can dive into specific issues or catch up on current events. I was just checking out this article on the changing landscape of tech, jobs for recent computer science grads and how everything is changing so fast. It was a real eye opener and with the economists free trial, you'll get access to in depth independent coverage of world events through podcasts, webinars and expert analysis. As soon as you sign up, if you're interested in subjects like this go to economist dot com, slash project for full access to the topics that matter to you, an original analysis as events unfold, that's economist, dot, com, slash project or just click. The link in the show notes to start your one month, free trial with the economists today, because the world won't wait

so the ten percent happier podcast has one guiding philosophy. Happiness is still that you can learn. So why not embrace it? It's hosted by dan harris journalist who had a panic attack on national television and then send out on this journey of transformation and he's now on a quest to help. Others also achieve peace and happiness, and every week Dan talked you top scientists, meditation teachers. Even the odd celebrity in wide ranging conversations that explore topics like productivity, anxiety and lightness, psychedelic and relationships. The interviews cover everyone from bernay brown to cerebral ass to SAM Harrison more. I love learning from his questions and experiences and incredible guess think of listening to ten percent happier as a work out for your mind, fine ten percent happier where every listen to pot casts so They will be fun. Do take a little better step in time. I want to die. in to your exploration of long term partnerships. What brought together and also your deep dive,

asking a lot of different couples. How they have endured. really curious about you individually, a little bit first mars. I know that as a kid apparently, your nickname was miss independence. Yeah tell me how that came about. Oh, I guess because I was you know, strong, headed and wanted to do everything myself, and so my dad nicknamed me miss independence, but you know whenever and I it was have loving and half you know I go right already. You know I just was very strong willed, which Actually, he he fostered. He like my sister and brother night. You know to have our own opinions and set, but anyway, my my nickname. it was independence, Which is interesting right because your dad very strong personality in front of the camera, especially when you're a kid and its like also there in europe french relationship. Your dad was the one who sort of they both decided to put his career forward.

and your mom primarily became a mom and had started her career, but then pretty much put it on home right well my dad they met in Detroit. On a radio show and then a married. I was born in Detroit. Wasn't there for more than a few months, but My father wanted to go where the bigger night clubs, where he was a nice. the former, as was a radio personality. Are you trying to make a living, but, like clubs was his passion, so you want to go to Chicago. They were bigger clubs, obviously than in detroit answer. My mom had to make a decision as to whether she wanted to marry my dad and go chicago and wherever else was gonna go and her little fifteen minute radio show which she did and ass. They got married and had me, and then they went to Chicago and my dad his career there and then the great a blast. Although the great agent who represented frank sinatra, Judy garland, Danny K and all the big shots

so my dad and brought him to hollywood, so that was kind of our trust Actually we were moving around a lot. and so we really were re. My message, a brother. I were really rayson, beverly hills The kid: what was your sense of what average man what a long term partnership men, what was when you looked at that did you, the sense for this is that the model for these are the expectations yeah. thought it wasn't just a model, it was what marriage was. You know. I was like to me it was that was it a man, the husband, his work, his dreams, what he wanted to do in life and wise was sort of supplementary character. The play, and so she raised the children which was important. She turned the home and she took care of everybody and for that in all she had a family shared security.

She had a nice husband, a good marriage But I knew early on that marriage debbie for me, because I thought I was marriage and if that was marriage, I didn't I want to do it I wanted a career I wanted to travel and I wanted a cattle I do my father did, which is doing to do, and I knew a minute and I knew, but I realized, I thought that well, you know I'm not gonna build marry. A man going to stay home with the children and take care of the house, so I will probably not ever marry that kind of what my feeling was, and I was sad about it. I just didn't want it. I didn't want it. I didn't we play that role and I had a lot of boyfriends and went to london and play in for about a year, and I was very independent and I was having a time. In my life I love my work and I wanted

I wanted my work and I always felt bad from my mom. Did she gave up her my mother was a good singer and she singing, but meanwhile that was her choice, and so this was my choice why I really do believe if I had not met phil. I would not have married It really wasn't. anybody that I everyone out with an eye, get marilla was forty two years or so The time I was twenty till you're really seriously dating a really consider high school in early years of collars, I think on our seriously dating as a young woman I was never looking for husband and, as I look that, wasn't anybody that I would have wanted to spend my life with their own lovely people, educated man, were good at their work and all the things would just wasn't for me. Yet

I'm curious on on your side as a kid, especially here when your family unit in your upbringing. I know you end up in catholic school. Did you have a sensibility or model for what a long term relationship was like, even in the youngest years we thought about that? I believing that a few said how do you do- for the rest of your life, so young force was never ended my consciousness. There they have been an ant too. It's divorced in our family. I don't remember. But I do remember crawling over somebody get the communion at me, That was usually the realm. Who was divorced so It never occurred to me that this is gonna, be my job and only cow. It was I mean,

It not only was a divorce, but I suddenly had. For sons. older myself. And I didn't know what to do with them. I mean help em all with your with their homework. So. I had all these. I was still on the air, tap dancing every day for an hour and. yeah rating home to make sure that they know they got home from school all right in that whatever Hunger they may have had. I was I had to take care of. But I had a very unusual Early married life. In which I suddenly found myself to be a single parent and I really it was an eye opener for me.

I realized what women, had been doing all all these years. right in front of me and I didn't realize. How stressful That was. And how it was a full time job. You I mean here they were lie. Breathing people. yet you as if to say, I'm hungry dad. What are we gonna have supper? all of those things came down on my head at once. So that was I grew up in a hurry, and that really you know that set up the time you and Marlowe really connect. You know you're both in the world of entertainment, you're, both very forward face fell on tv and on a daily basis. At that point, Marlowe has hit, show and then involved in so many different projects in an hour

becoming a really strong and public feminist and voice for feminism and there's this fateful day and nineteen. Seventy seven, where Marlowe from what Jen promoting a buck, when you land on phil show. Promoting a movie call seeds and fill had been divorce about for years. By that time,. and why going on a talk, show I wasn't expecting to further. With anybody. I was on a tour. I was I and other cities that aren't member. But I know the next city was Denver colorado. That was my next city? So I did his show and an eye his show was not in l a at the time, so it wasn't that familiar with him. I knew that he was great. I knew that his show was a must, stop in and be a part of, because he had an hour's show an end. procedures also disguise the biggest thing in the mid west you have to do, is show so and now

it was kind of daunting in a one hour, one guest, I think Was that interesting version, nine, a m. But anyway I was in the green room waiting. to start, and he came in and was putting on his jacket and when he walked in the room I really was a quiet chemical reaction. I have it here. This big beautiful blue eyes and his shadow White hair is putting on his navy blue jacket and, oh he just He looked like a choir boy and she was I think you have three catholic to understand this she was for me immediately and impure thoughts. So we had an instant reaction and it's interesting jonathan, because we interviewed so many couples for Work and then for our planet cast This girl, what makes a marriage last podcast called double date and many people,

had that moment where they met each other and or even saw each other a bit. crystal so jan is when it was Eighteen years old, he's married, a janitor. I think it's fifty years He saw her on the beach. She was sawyer ball with a friend and he saw this girl in a pink bikini walked by and he said, was friend I'm going to marry her. I mean these these people ill. Do you have that reaction? It's it's amazing. How many of our meeting, yeah. Malcolm Gladwell road, wrote the book blink in which he makes the point that first impressions are for many of us everything That was the case in a lot of the couples that we featured in our book yet

that inciting incident that moment fascinates me as well. I'm curious you know people can back and actually watch that clip watch the original conversation which you know answer. Please an interview, but really it's obvious as a viewer there's something else going on there at the same time- and this answer both of you sense that too, when you rat that episode, you know marla you move onto denver as you share the europe on this tour we going city to city. What are you both thinking, ass dolly that was interesting. That was nice or there's something that needs to be followed up here. I was a bit shaken by it. Because I was leaving an I had this feeling about this man and I would never see him again. He did Chicago I lived in LOS angeles was on my way to denver hat mazurka one night stop and I I just have this very issue. feeling about them. I siphon physical,

of how good looking. I thought it was and whatever else was going on, likely inside of me in something about talent that is very It's an aphrodisiac. You know when some it does something. Well I mean if europe carpenter or an actor or whatever, wherever you are, you do it. Well, it's it's it's very alluring and he was so good in at the show I mean I, as I say I had seen. The show and the way he orchestrated the whole thing had such confidence. He was interviewing me with a lot of confidence in saddle fair than then he jumped off this age and ran into the audience and talk to them, and then he took a call from a collar I mean just was like a conductor of an orchestra had absolutely not climb about anything any come back to me? Go back to them huge amount of confidence. Confidence is sexy, so I already was physically attracted him and then is

his talent was very alluring. and when the show was over, it was like it was hard, because here was this one hour of intense for guess on him and his intense focus on me and then it was well go by. And, as a rule over the woman in your life is very lucky. In asia we are just fascinating and then I left- and I I felt well I'm never see him again. I felt that in I said: do there was a of his produces was walking me out to my car, which is they always you show you how to get going, I said, while he is really an attack The man and she's india an end and he's available I should really She's said yeah he's divorced and he has a poor kids and I said, That piece of information so lizzie wasn't married,

and then only then I gotta my car and left town the next morning. I found a no after you called me yeah, as I call back from written in my son caverns hand, Milo Thomas called We called me that night before, but I was out, as you said, gallivanting in chicago rough, so so when you, when you called the night before why, what what was Did you want to happen? Well, he and I already. I'd already measure as a bad thought. And so I certainly had interest in her and you know I didn't want to be here I didn't want to be pushy about that was matter. But you had a little speech, you said ready to say, but guess I was the idea.

and she was. She was a great gas because not only was sheer entertainment star and looking, but she was up to date on important issues, feminism most certainly and my audience nervously- nineteen seven you're. My audience was largely female daytime audience, And she was perfect as a guest. Pretty important, if it's one guess for the whole our right, so I use I used to say, backing those days I used to say: she was a hangover gas if I was over You know all I do is clear. My throat and she carried along, call me, and you said well, I come out to allay some time. I'd like to take it a lunch, a luxury I dinner

sound a little wearing gazelle. I sat I thought to myself: oh my god gonna take forever waiter comes there, lay them. lunch and he lives in Chicago. So I said to him well you come and visit me in denver, I'm I'm desperate cabin, to live as denver far gash again with ivory chicago- you don't know- is that so he had done a plane. and he came to have dinner with me and and the sort of was a continuation. of the hour we spent on the air we We talked a mile a minute Latin common will, Both ways by my old catholic parents. My dad was in toledo he's from Cleveland we're very till I get our politics much alike in and we just We just hit it off. That moment began, three year relationship. Vienna, which was mostly.

long distance in committee kind of relationship, and then we may three years later, but even then I I didn't really want to get married. I was what you say crazy about him, but I wasn't Admitting that I was in love, but I was I really want to be with him and we did- everything we could I mean he had these four boys lived with them? Is a wonderful daughter lives with his ex wife, and so he was causally trying to see the daughter being with his boys. Coming to l a maybe bring a couple of the boys with him that were too young to stay home. I mean it was it was. It was rough going, but but we did it. We went back and forth from chicago to l a every weekend. and I was raising for sons? the issue scared me really. I wasn't sure what to do with them. And I was I am not proud of fact that I was. I was kind of a crazed parent. You know and

One of the sun set them marlowe on one occasion when he was at our own, Michael yet Michael said, I like it when you're here. We were a little happier In many ways it to raise- were boys and then be on your own tremendous amount of pressure. And I know also you know- You're doing this and, as you said, largely long distance and finding ways to navigate being together, which can be in terribly hard for a lot of people at some point in that that window and are you Some kind of hidden beaumont, where you thought it was just too much. It was too hard, there's too much difference between us and we need to break up and you did but that didn't last woke up for about three months we were we have been. Think to sacramento or somewhere fill with eta a remote of his show. I think it was in sacramento and

and I had gone there to join them because it was a quick jumped formulae and after that weekend. We both You know what this is just issue: so hard, I'm an I was there. Reactive, then I produced about twelve. Will these for television, and I, producing them in starring in them I was really committed and he, was very committed to a daily show and his children. And he's a look, I gotta get my boys. I got. them raised up a catechisms, your high school I can't be leaving them all the time, I'm very guilty about that, and you know I think you're the greatest and everything, but it just doesn't an ice said, same thing, and we both knew that didn't work. And so I went back to my home in beverly hills and he were bad tissue go and who so we we did not speak for three minutes. And we made it a real break and I was miserable

and I found a later so was he he lent Then also dating girls, it known before, as did I, but it was of no denying it that there was no replacement for him and after about three months, we're decided. We had to find a way to put our lives together so who? Who that first move like probably data You know why you did what you like. You were you at the time I was in bed. It was three o clock in the morning, you have a better marine avail or somewhere skiing. What the boys member what you said. I know you do because you said it yeah. I said that I never thought I'd- miss somebody as much as I miss you. You said I never that anyone would be this irreplaceable behalf. I probably did then thank you for remembering so that prompt you to both can realise okay, so this has to happen. We have to face

it out, but what he said I never end one could be this irreplaceable. What in no about phil Is he really says remains and he doesn't he doesn't? flourish- I mean I'm sure they were all kinds of words? Around that he could have said, but I picked up the phone and said hello. And he said he didn't say hello. after not hearing him for three months. Famous. I never thought anyone would be this irreplaceable. It hit my heart, because it's exactly what I was feeling an ice. Did you cry on the phone and he started to cry and then he's? I'm I'm scheme with the boys and in the next couple of weeks. When I can get aware I'd like to come visit, and so then he did and then and then what

I'll get out and the end of the thing on his mind, most with a guy my boys to high school, I've gotta get every one of them gradually go and that again was very appealing. Sponsible. Man was responsible to his children, who is responsible. he was in love with me, but he was responsible. and though. So we kind of mapped out our life know that I would move to new york and we'll get him. apartment and He wouldn't be able to move for about four years. And then he would move is whole show. And the kids at all being caught then and that's it he moved his show yeah. I was a whole. It was really a revolution. In many ways. First of all, I. I really didn't plan to be in new york, but the all was growing in

NBC made. The station and thirty rock was a seductive redress for me personally at that time, And so off we went Well, certainly. It certainly made the relationship easier when it made us allow me. I will never long distance feature. I mean we got to really the the islets and a flight attendants gutted call us our first name. Chicago new york chicago near every weekend everywhere, it was. It was me we're on an airplane, a lot of us and am lately. We pick do you because I said to fill I can't really work in Chicago. I can. Continue my career in both

work in l a and you said: well, I can. Work in new york and d c that I can't work and l I'm not interested, and in doing a show about entertainment in a way. He would have some people as entertainers like me, but that was the base of his show the base of the show was really politics, and what this In a word. The social fabric of the country had ralph nato on all the time. Jesse Jackson, glorious dynamo. Those were really the debate. of his show so and senators and presidents and and had a general motors, and they really were not living in l a so that wasn't the place for him and so is that I can live in new york. Her dc I can live in new york or l a so there it was new york was the city So that's what we moved to.

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you end up in new york together, eventually get married and start building alive, but occasion of your marriage is also interesting, especially for marla, because you had been a local outspoken voice of feminism for many years, and still are There were certain assumptions I think about the fact that you had identified for a long time as it as an adult single woman without and a need to have to get married when you actually got married. It said like there were certain people who were very happy for you and then there are others who to a certain sense betrayed Yes! Well I mean the people that I knew were very happy for me Gloria Steinem and all my best friends that was feminists were very happy for me, there were women that I No, The country who wrote to me and said how could you be merry? I mean I've always been able to say to my mother.

marlo thomas, isn't crazy and she's not married. So I had some have become. You know, I'm a symbol for other women who didn't want to marry that it was ok not to be married, because I wasn't a weirdo and I wasn't, I don't know whatever I didn't have a A unicorn on my head, so I was a normal person and What did the passengers say? I'm apply all right, we were, we run our plane, the plan to honeymoon in greece and We ve been very quiet, nobody knew where we were getting married, we got married and my parents living room was, Thirty five people, my family and fills family, and that was all next morning, we're on our way to greece and fill had gone to the bathroom, and I was sitting there with my engage the ring and my wedding ring at all. and this woman from across the aisle said to me. Are you marlo thomas, and I said yes and she said? Are you married.

and I said yes thinking on the blushing bride, the first person, it's gonna, know that I married outside of my family and she said well, how could you get married? I am so disappointed and I was struck by that you know, I thought, oh, my god, what have I done? I've little these people down phil came back from the bathroom and I was certainly I told them. What is what? So that is it what woman were issued and anyway. I got over it, but it was It was striking that the data- of male said that to me and a lotta, and that woman on the airplane it was just I was shocking. I just I never knew that I never knew. That was what what was standing for out there. I wasn't meaning to stand for anything when you finally got married. and you told your mother, let we're about to get married. And that you were going to marry

a man with four sons, She said, oh, what a joke on you. that was pretty funny. It's you. Like the joke was on everyone, because you have now been together, for I guess it's over forty years in marriage ends You decided recently to write a book, but I'm curious which really explored, which wits sat where you sat down with forty different couples who had been too therefore a very long time in and really serve said what will what's going on here. What was the he's in what was the inciting incident fer you undertaking that project. Well, for years, people had start to talk about our marriage and we never wanted to be really. I feel that it was strong by its privacy. And so we didn't talk about

it in and then they would ask us know, what's the secret sauce, what do you do that different work and we think of anything we did. There was any different. We certainly made a lot of life combinations for each other? moved to new york. He moved to new york. We did We think we could debate together other than that in a we loved each other. We like each other. We have the time together, I couldn't really my finger on anything and so what we are about to turn away on our thirty night, anniversary. We heard about a couple right that we're getting a divorce the blow Thirty, nine years and you get divorced- and we said well How does that? Have a david very like twenty five years we were married, thirty nine and was our thirty night anniversary and we said how does it happen? When are you saying that you're gonna get a divorce after twenty six twenty seven years?

so we started talking about that. What what did they do wrong and what are we do right and had it had it? people stay together. We just didn't know, especially people who are One of them is not just backing down, but there are. Both of them are very involved in the marriage. and so we decided to talk to a lot of people, There had been married along time. Does you can't learn from seventy the married five years, but you get you real one the very twenty years you ve got something. You can say something that you learned and so that we decided to do for people around the table and we thought. Maybe the interviews would go fifteen minutes now we did not, they provide an hour, but they were like three hours will never fifteen and finally, I would say, I'm sorry- but we really have about it. Was you know when we opened up, they opened right. It was easy

here for them. with us about person issues. Get made the interviews more interesting. Well,. I don't think they would have ever been a successful if we had in fact We decided to do. It was my idea and fill wasn't all that forward he said to me. I don't want to talk about our marriage. We ve always private about this. I dont want, I'll go out and I said to him: I mean you learn after forty years that you're not gonna, have your mate disseminate. I want to do so as it you don't have to I'll talk about. I want to talk about they'll talk and you'll, be there to ask questions and so forth, but as we It started it was self, and it was so much like a double date. Then you know billy. Crystal talked about Seeing his wife on the beach and unknown until talked about meeting me on the show, and then somebody else talked about being jealous mark Consuela us Kelly. cyprus has been talking about his jealousy until tat

but his jealousy and little by little healed. Up as they opened up and they opened up as we opened up in it became just like you would, on a double day. No one cup can't do all the talking everybody talks. And whenever he starts talking, they said revealing things, and it's it's fun. You know when we started out. We said this. We know how to book, because a house to book would be like a pamphlet. it's really a what book. What did you do when this What what did curious, sedgwick and Kevin bacon do when they lost all their money too, to a Bernie madoff. You know what what did Jackson and Jackie jackson do when he had a baby out of wedlock in a what did Chris do we generally courtesy found, are generally curtis hadda an addiction problem million. What did each and then

and how did they get better and what did the solemn birds do when her one at home rang and the voice on the other end said you're when just landed is plain in the hudson river, I mean, and of course the world fell on their house, how did they adjust to that? so where all the couples hat and is it funded talk too, like so berger and John makin rowan pad smythe. So weird- Jimmy carter and rosalyn carter, all kinds of well from all walks of life, and when we got Off the road phil said, thing he notice was what oh people wanted the marriage You can have one person the kind of dragging the other along in the relationship it

He does take this this fundamental? Now that I think about it, both partners have to watch the marriage equal because I know I'm sure you ve seen it Jonathan as we have in many marriages. Is one person that sort of doing all the accommodating, putting it altogether making life interesting, inviting people over you know, china making our being the one that makes up all the time that those marriages don't work. The other person just feels the first that's doing all the giving and fixing, becomes exhausted and has no nourishment both p have to be nourish. That what nourishes the marriage and figured that out along the way that one, Grissom can't be the one that always says, I'm sorry

Let's try to fix this that that can't be at both people have to to egg accommodations, put that that the other and is not you, and they're gonna have different desires and different needs and each for It has to accommodate that, and I think Accommodation was one of the words that we came. the road with thought, and I had never thought of that word before Did it really is one of the secrets to a happy marriage is a happy accommodation that you saying in a what This is why we need this is what he wants is a witch who she It is what she has to do you. Don't have that kind of thing. You know I remember one time I was very busy and running around, so mad calf and a friend of mine? This friend told me a male friend who was our friend of both of us said: phil

I god: doesn't that drive you crazy that she's running about deadened and phil? It did this man, don't rain on her for aid. and had so tat. We need to remember that check edit don't touch me that feel had said that to him without me and earshot. Said all ran on parade, so that's very low being in very caring. He wants me to have what I want and I want him to have what he wants. That's what you do is apparent spouses. Don't often do that free other. I mean almah. And dad will do anything to give their children everything they want to get what they want. The best education is there's a car when they have all the stuff that you possibly can do for your children but we don't sometimes apply that to our spouse. and if we did a little more of that for us I was even I know

from women that I've met even to the point where the husband realises that the wife will want to go back to school. and they need to find money in the budget, I have to go back to school and Often when the money is allotted its the children to go to school and this and that, but sometimes a wife wants to go back to school and find a way to make that possible, for her is a very big Act of love and accommodation, and I'm not a lot of women who have been an that and marriage counselling. Yes that's a real act of love. You know when one partner feels. You a little bit threatened about whatever reason. and suggests marriage counselling that that really says I love you This, alas, there was a

That regulation happen. There is every couple of brian plants in his wife robin dear in and Patrick Harrison, David burka, several couples the marriage, housing anderson it's really help them Brian. and caused a tune up when we needed to end up with go see the marriage counselor I mean what interests me is also marlowe, what you, just described as wanting for your partner. What so often apparent is seen as wanting for their children and be there to help figure out how both people can be fully express, can be caught? and can be alive and be themselves in the relationship? I think It's so powerful and, what's interesting to me, is is the re. Imagining of marriage from what saw the model to be growing up. This was

of redefining it as no? This is the way that I can understand being in this type of relationship, but re imagining as something that is more more equal me or more generous earlier broom air The definition that I grew up with was it was a very tight place. It didn't have any windows open when we were married and still commuting. I had an aunt who said to me: that's not a marriage, and I thought to myself This is why I never married because there's too tight definition of marriage, as you know, in other words, a marriage. People live in the same city. If you like and two different cities and new community back and forth in her? that was not a marriage. And that was helpful me, too, realise that's what we did we define marriage for ourselves and that everybody has to do. When I was student.

at the university of notre dame in the fifties. We had a man its counselling session, all males we sat me audience. Young men couple on the stage served as the advisers and the man said. Secret through a happy marriage is find a good wife there was that with marriage counselor at noted aim in the fifties Is it always it's all our responsibility to find a good wife? first, we are waiting for and you were lighted by seventeen or asia- have accepted this brilliant council,

As important because it was coming from a married- If I'm a good, why? Ok, let me get out and find a good what I mean it's interesting also in the context of the book, another podcast, where your sharing some of these conversations, because you it sounds like very deliberately sought out a really worse array of people to sit down with so having down with so many people now across different ages, different colors, different ethnicities, sexual at ease and different genders. Uk. Able to see so many different patterns in so many different, repeated experiences and I'm cool is about those common patterns that you saw across every one. One of the big curiosities is what you saw around vulnerability and the role

the vulnerability in long term relationships will. I was surprised by the the male vulnerability. You know a few minutes ago when Phil was this having the phone call to me. it's so vulnerable for him to say I never read, they will be this. Your place of all was a very vulnerable thing to say: I mean he was saying, I'm I'm without you it's for you to say it because does so personal, then I think than for men that would, though, just not I mean that's. Why did we d, be you and me, with our taught is expressed their feelings manner. Men are taught not adversity, only sissies cry and all that so that the thing is is that a couple of the men many of the men were very vulnerable as vulnerable as phil was too that to me on the phone.

ted danson on his third marriage. To marry steam virgin has on her second, and they have a wonderful marriage or a fabulous couple did married thirty years now. And I said to him: how did you have the optimism to get married a third time I mean I could barely get married once And he said I knew I had to stop the lying as it were, you lying about is it well. I was unfaithful at one thing he's a good. I was like about. Who I was going? I had this image of myself ass. A man and a man and feel bad about anything, a man Does it l begets rejected, be bounces right back, a man doesn't does cry. A man doesn't have a bad days of what it is that I would come to the door at night just having had a horrible day right held so much pain, but I wouldn't minutes why just command like everything was great, So the women that I was never knew they all I was

They never saw the real me. They only saw this. version of me that I wanted to show them. He said what when I met Mary, Mary Stuart and his wife. He said I realise it. She didn't play that dance. She was really looking at me and expecting more. Did that the real needs, the authentic ted and that's what them fallen. Levin why they ve been together thirty years that was such an interesting think them to say, and I think a lot of men do that they don't want to show how much they hurt how much they get battered around women. Do women cry is a terrible day were in a way, no trouble with that. Even strong women like me, we don't. We don't see that as a weakness. We see that has been telling the truth. men, see that is as weakness and that keeps them

from being good married partners and then the above but of all people really showed his vulnerability. His mother left would, he was twelve, is mother brand. it was his father's best friend, so twelve years old he realized allow were, in this alone. and then they got married anyone into the navy or the marine environment which, while he was in the marines or whatever his wife left, you. Then it and then he went all I'm alone and then his. second, marriage also broke up after had a child and she left he was firmly in the belief that we're all alone in this world- and then he married this If a woman, elsa Walsh they've been married over thirty years, what he wanted, enliven an Could give to her what she gave to him? You know he found in a way to have a good relationship but

up until then, he had been really scarred, You know by all these women leaving him his mother and his two wives. And was very vulnerable mary. I just fell in love with him. I bob woodward you think, above all over does this guy, like my wallet and who really goes after people. I haven't awakening to thee, consequences of jealousy I was fascinated with the mark and swallow story who called is, from Boston he was in new york. And he said what are you doing and she said well, cleaning, the apartment, cleaning, the Bathroom and he thought that answer was kind of vision, some literally got on an airplane without telling her flew home got to the apartment went up to them. Floor and ran

asked her. Who was she was standing at the door. looking further tall, dark stranger behind the drapery. and it was a reminder of how that feature, which I think, a lot of people, some menace actually suffer from in a marriage is draining it can where you out I had, jealousy When marlowe made a movie with Chris christophersen. And they had a love, see. Well I mean that love scene, I thought, lasted like. Maybe an hour and a half for a minute yeah, so I I was jealous and You know it is I wanna jealous of a more things than that

he was jealous about a lot of I was here. I mean here's herself, the actress was a bad thought when I first met her I can only imagine how she was made by other men? and she was meeting a lot of men in her work. so this was. This was something I had to get over and I took a while, but- recall how draining at work. jealousy really saps your strength and if you can just get continent. Where are you not specious, all the time. It makes life a lot better and a lot better and it's very hard on the person. the jealousy is directed because

jealousy is not about what you're doing it's about what the man or woman, whose jealous Has got going inside of their midst there as feels that confidence is so lacking confidence at the role their own suspicious nature paranoia It has nothing to do with what you're doing and that's that's hard on a person because you think you're. So what am I doing? Am I doing something wrong that I do what I said. It's it's difficult was very glad when Anne it wasn't a long time in public was somewhere in the middle of our marriage together that you kind of drop them Can you tell me what a relief it was that you felt the trusted, to feel that in right I mean I really deep. I felt had graduated to some different level of maturity, but it did make For me, it made life some easier? If you can get past there.

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when did life start getting so complicated, buying a home, complicated home finances, certainly not a walk in the park. Raising kids, she hath it's a lot that, and there's insurance what, if my policy doesn't cover this or what, if I have to make a claim in the middle of the night, good news state farm is there for your. What, if you can reach them? Twenty four seven file, a claim on the state farm, mobile app or simply call your agent to ask anything. So even if life gets tricky, insurance doesn't have to be like a good neighbor state farm. Is there caller Eight farmed outcome for a quote today. Yeah one of the other patterns that I seem to see come up a lot with different couples who you sat down with and also, as I said here with both of you I'm noticing in a very strong way, is that they see each other

you see each other, and I can see you visually that those listening can will just hear this. But what I can see is you keep looking at each other you keep noticing each other We had a little while back a couple named Julian John got men on the show, had been researching love and marriage for decades. Together One is clinician and one is an academic and there something that's commonly known as the love lab they ve done a lot of research and one of the things that they found. That they were actually able to predict with ninety. five percent accuracy, whether marriage with survives six years out. and when they really looked at what what were they looking at They notice that people were making bids for each other's attention and affection all day long and where people turned towards those bids. It was

really good relationship when people didn't notice them or even turned against them. It was terrible, What they found was that what they called the asters of these long term relationships. notice, the bids and they turned towards them. Eighty six percent of the time where, as the what they call the disaster relationships. Most of them ended they only. Towards the bids. Thirty, three percent of the time. And it seems like it- marion and dated my wife and we ve, been together for close to thirty years, were merry twenty. Four and look. at both of you, I'm watching you noticed each other You know it's! It's literally you're you're looking at me, but you're also keep looking at each other. You keep noticing the different things, the quirks the things I'm wondering if that resonates with you as something critical I don't know that I notice that

I don't have a conscious a conscious feeling about that but I guess, as you now the to express it I guess contact eye contact the revealing feature of anybody's behavior. I admit I mean in terms of the couples away any view rather remember noticing that, but they did they didn't mind you. I was so nervous about hoping that the interview would be going well and after over an hour when we would finally say thank you good, bye, three hours. yeah, really ever more. They were, but we're fine, I mean I there was couple of them that I didn't want to be over. I really enjoyed it in a couple of people We state over had a meal with them and had

glass of wine a minute. Was it This fund we made new friends, it was, interesting in that way. So with the m, as we sit here today, your both working on the second project, which is a podcast called double date, which is real, The extension to a certain extent of this book and where your sharing the Video of a lot of these conversations I'm wondering as you revisit these conversations and you sit down and you re listen to them, and then put them out into the world how you are experiencing, whether you have its remit Did you have anything or there are things that you actually didn't notice or see the first time through that you're sort of revisiting, I think I just was very touched by them that they would Give so much it themselves. You said that a one whether he was surprised right, I noticed how much they opened up,

We offered something yeah about ass personal that seem to open the door. For I tell you what having interviewed one on one on my television chauffeur thirty years partnering, for an interview. Really has its advantages it means that the subject, especially thirty, two of them, to one too is more likely to engage. conversation with you. That's going to have often- of personal information that we did, made him over, the head who expose of of themselves they offered. It and often with enthusiasm. It was a real

discovery firm? I think both of us it was fun, and you know after we we ve been interviewed by people for the press or tell vision interviews and they said to us, especially the print people. Is it never would have gotten. Those result of people, I, the amazing thing is: is that. you were able to get them to tell really personal things. And we said well, I think it because we didn't really go in. There was reporters we women, there was another couple. two couples: hang together having it. Glass of wine or a cup of tea in some nash. Is that everybody put out when we want to their homes? They put out things for us. It was Coupled aid was to couples as a matter of william if we express personal stories about ourselves they would do the same it's amazing other doors adorbs to blow open, that's different than a reporter.

The porter reset your one sided conversation. They asked questions you answer. You know We often ask them: how do you fight? Because it's not It's not just tell you fight is how to combat from one and a lot of people. Can you know there are people in this world who go days without speaking to each other. I mean that is so beyond anything I could do I mean I, I did not speak, maybe for an hour I have to get back to it on that people who do that in but jane scarborough said When you find yourself arguing, he said, She said I didn't say I didn't make citing circular around and around somebody should say: oh, let's go, this? Can down the road and its and so superficial at the time

but not long after the interview during one of arguments. What did I say this it? I sit Let's kick, this can down the road and, of course, we started laughing at that This is great. It in something to stop it. Didn't you say no, you said I said you were there you put in, of no importance and will you all remembered tourism now, but Such an interesting thing to have codes to stop? Stop any of that sort of bickering Then one of our guests said the viewer if you're having an argument the best way to get over it. Is you should sleep turkey, that turkey, we, what about that for a while to hand. That is your issue. My I guy here had? Is love the add this simple answers there, another yiddish word so there's a

word in yiddish, which I is pronounced now his. And it translates roughly two, the why that you feel bore somebody that you love so heartedly that you experience their success as your own and I think that's a lot of what you been talking about right, and that's also called felling right, yeah yeah, and often we talk about it in the context of children, yet it I have that feeling for a partner in a life partner? I think right is a really beautiful thing. It's a it's, a it's, a very joyful thing and it feeds you. It feeds each person if I feel it for him that feeds me. And it feeds him to know that I'm feeling that sub both people get nourished from it. I really think it. Marriage and love like a plant, they need to be watered, you can't just say I do in and walk away and figure out. What are you gonna do with your life uneasily water all the time

with love and attention and affection and end observation in even interrogation? How are you feeling? What are you feeling? How can I help you all that is going on all the time, We need those exact words, but attention at the other person really do you know sometimes I say to fill a feeble not feeling well or something I'll say how feeling it he'll say fine and I'll say there is no information and fine, I mean. Are you feeling are you feeling words that feel there is a feeling that and so, is is engaging in it. If somebody wants to know how you feel you know, When are you do feels to the other person knows with what state you're in and that's difficult for, especially an irishman, even when I would complain a my complaints to my pet. Hence my mother, especially.

We're never validated If I said, I'm tired. My mother, would say we're all tired You know you weren't, you work, There was no respect given today. Complaint that you just share a feeling. Tat dear feelings, were all tired, ok, really is another way to say shut up it doesn't. Incur it'll cares india. It doesn't encourage sharing feelings. Yet, sir, I feel that this is also a good place for us to come full circle and our conversation, I'm gonna give out. One final question: we're sitting here in this container in the name of the show, is a good life project. If I offer up the phrase to live a good life for each of you, what comes out To live a good life. Well, I

I think a good life has to have purpose in it. That you have, something that you work for that you dream about net you killed fulfilled about to me. That's part of the good life and to share it with some one to have someone there, you know you know. You're back I have also also felt that marriage and relationships are a cushion of life. So life needs a cushion. You need to know that, if everything is or sadder. Follow parker you ve lost someone, you love and all other things can happen in life there, disappointing and hard. You have a cushion, you have somebody. There was gonna, you know so, what you through, that give you up a soft warm space. A shoulder a hand and arm all the things Because it's a hard world, it

the world is changing all the time in how it feels to people, how it feels towards certain kinds of people. It is really something constant. I think a good life has to constancy in it that you can count on. I wrote him out of it agri about a hundred years ago. And I began the first chapter by saying what My children, please me, I didn't tell him. That's an old catholic irish. I yes axiom And I realize now. How wrong that is. To tell your children that Europe, These, when they please you. Is a buoyant effort, Them they feel enlarged by

They suddenly become in their innermost cells, more confident in raised and wondered what a gift that is for them well for my kids, it's a little late, but you know Somewhere along the way, somebody said too soon, all too, its mark. So that's how you answered the good life yeah, I think you're Let me let me rephrase that, actually, when you think about your life. When you think about what makes it truly good, what do you think about. we'll have a professional answer to that. But I'm afraid you don't get it visit like well you he there we have to go to the first well,. It's not about professional. About children, what makes you well when I ski,

I feel so free. I'm going over the mobile models in. I'm getting these that I do it for you, Jonathan. He referred. It's all right. You did very well, you really didn't forget it. We did the best you can. Maybe they just take their partner matthew out I wouldn't know the wind up on the router or, more than once tell you I think in the exchange between new, while, while you are answering that question, we actually had the answer in what happened between both of you. the energy of love and support that about goes a long way to answering the question, but oh thank you. Thank you both thanks

Jonathan. So before you leave if you'd love this episode safe bet, you have also love the conversation that we had with julie and John god, men through the founders of the legendary love lab and their deep dive into what love and what long term relationship two marriages really

are all about. You'll, find a link to Julia and John's episode in the show notes, even if you don't listen now be sure to click and download. So it's easy to play when you're on the go and, of course, if you haven't already done so, be sure to follow the good life project in your favorite listening app, so you'll never miss an episode and then share the good life project, love with friends, because when ideas become conversations that lead to action, that's when real change takes hold, see you next time.