Hey there before we die, then, if you appreciate the conversations we ve been bree you and you haven't yet followed the show. I would appreciate if you take just two seconds and hit low down in whatever up your listening in I know it seems inconsequential, but this simple action is actually so important to us. This shall be more easily discovered and listen to end it where's. You never miss another said so. My simple ask take two seconds now and follow good life get on your listening up so great for your kind support. Ok, now onto the shall we in attention movement to reclaim my mines and absolutely believe we can do that. We don't have to for this, we don't to accept our minds and our children's mines being diminished in the way that they are right now right. These are relatively recent changes. They are not acts of god. They're not magic,

The things that have been done by humans and their things that can be undone by humans, but this happen by accident so have you ever felt yourself getting pulled and her husband directions at once, struggling to focus on any one thing, fully kind of like your attention and focus was just a stretched rubber band about to snap on the surface. Our lives seem faster and busier than ever before, but could there be deeper forces influencing our ability to really home in on what matters to go deep to be present and do good work without feeling constantly fragmented and fractured? I know I have lost count of the times and it looked up from my phone away to wonder. Where did the last few hours ago

I tried to multitask my way through meetings or emails, even though I know you shouldn't be doing that surfacing with just this hazy. Memory of what just happened or maybe felt the whim of notifications or alerts pulled away from what really lights you up. We have all experienced moments where our attention feels almost uncontrollably scattered and we just can't relate back in. So what determines how we focused why some things grab us while others slip by and maybe what are the hidden forces influencing our distracted days? These are the puzzles I have long sought to solve and in two days, powerful compilation episode we're doing

Deep dive on focus and attention sharing selections from wide, ranging conversations with three really groundbreaking thinkers who have cracked open the mysteries of attention and focus from different angles, Johann hari delves into the revelations that set him on an odyssey to uncover the truth about the forces that are often manipulating our focus in ways. We never realized. Neuroscientists gloria markets, granular, revealing insights from meticulous studies of attention span and habits and gretchen Rubin takes us on a journey to decode the four tendencies shaping how we respond to expectations and, in turn, harness our attention and directed towards action. So whether you feel your focus, fragmenting or just want to take back control, these innovators offer genuine wisdom on unseen patterns and actionable strategies so dive into their illuminating reflections. You never know what insight might spark new questions or possibilities for harnessing your unique attention so excited to share this conversation with you. I'm Jonathan fields- and this is good life project.

That project is monster by mastered classified as somebody who is constantly looking to grow. I have been using master class for years now with over a hundred and eighty classes taught by the world's best across just so many passions cooking. Writing they go shaken. It's like having a personal mentor anytime. I want. I was actually just watching their ultimate guide to effective communication, playlist and loved this short and sweet lesson from Laval Burton about how powerful pauses can be. When communicating it, something that I think about a lot when interviewing and speaking, but I dont always remembered it do it. So this was just such a great refreshing, helping me create moments of conversation or presentation where I really want people to lead into the experience. I love how master class helps me. Imagine a bigger future, while also giving me practical steps to get there, so this holiday season give the gift of growth and confidence, give one annual membership and get one free at master class, dotcom slush, good life right now. You can get to membership for the price of one at master class, dot, com, slash, good life, master class, dot, com, slash good life or just click. The link in a show notes offer terms apply

this episode of good law project is supported by Subaru, so love is all around during the subaru share the love event. Every year the Subaru community comes together for the subaru share the love event collectively supporting causes that make an incredible impact on both a national and a local scale. So, by the end of this year, the sixteenth year of the Subaru share the love event. Subaru and its retailers will have donated over two hundred and eighty five million dollars to charities like the a spc, a make a wish meals on wheels, the national park foundation and more than twenty one hundred hometown charities. So imagine a world where, over one hundred, sixty thousand animals have been supported. Thirty three hundred wishes granted to children with critical illnesses. Four point: three million meals provided to seniors and over four hundred national parks protected all through sixteen years of the Subaru share the love event, and for me this is such a powerful example of both walking the walk of generosity and caring and of living a good life. I have been such a big fan of Subaru for years now, both because I drive a subaru which has gotten me through some very snowy moments, with confidence and ease and the colorado rockies, but also because of their genuine dedication, to doing good as someone who lives in boulder and has a deep connection to the outdoors and the impact that nature has on my well being, I love how Subaru share the love event supports the national park foundation so that we can all have more access to the restored power of nature. So thanks subaru for really making a difference, because for every new Subaru vehicle purchased or leased during the Subaru share, the love event. Subaru and its retailers will donate a minimum of three hundred dollars to charity. The subaru share the love event now through january. Second,

library is sponsored by nets. We till I remember when our businesses were just starting to really scale. It was amazing and also added complexity and stress, and the things I used to do in hours were taken days too many spreadsheets too many systems, no single source of truth. That sounds familiar. You should know these numbers, thirty, seven thousand twenty five and one thirty. Seven thousand businesses have upgraded to net sweet by article twenty five nets. We turned twenty five this year that twenty five years of helping businesses do more with less closed their books in days not weak and drive down costs and one because your business is one of a kind. Sir, you get a cost. My solution for all of your key performance indicators and one efficient system with one source of truth manage risk, get rely before cats and improve margins. Everything you need to grow all in one place and right now download net sweets popular katy. I check list designed to give you consistently excellent performance: absolutely free at net sweet dot, com, slash good life, that's net, sweet dot, com, slash good life to get your own kpi checklist nets, red dot, com, slash good life so

our first guest as johan hurry and internationally bestselling author and pulitzer prize nominated journalist, Johan group in london, the son of a bus driver and nurse and studied at cambridge. His books have been translated into forty languages and praise by thought leaders worldwide, but it was a revelation and grace land of all places that propelled him on an investigative odyssey across cultures, incontinence, uncovering some pretty shocking truths about about the hidden habits. Warping. Our focus in your hand, shares some pretty gripping tales from his travels into the realm of focus with surprising findings revealed by top researchers, you'll learn how technology has optimize distraction and really what must change to reclaim our attention so whether you feel pull than a hundred directions or one I just take back control your hands transformational journey just might spark your own awakening, so here's yon there was also. It sounds like that. There was an inciting, isn't it even before you decide to go deeper into attention and before you have this really fascinating three month experience of providence, which was the relation

with your godson, who had this sort of obsession with Elvis dad ass a little bit later in life when he was struggling a little bit led to this moment, with you that awaken due to the fact that things happening around here. Talk me through the experience of the year. When he was nine, my god sudden developed this brief, but freakish, really intense obsession with Elvis presley another even discovered how we find out who he was and is particularly acute, because you didn't know that Elvis had become a cheesy cliche. So I think he was ass, a person in the history, western civilization, to do timely, sincere impression of Elvis and when I talked to him in at night. He would get me to tell him story of Elvis's life again and again, and I tried to skip over the bit at the end, where Elvis dies on the toilet, obviously, and One night I was talking to him I mention grassland were always lived. And he said to me your hand. Will you take me to graceland one day and I said sure

in the way you do with nine year olds, knowing next week a bee disneyland whenever and he said, no do really promise to swear one day you gonna take me to grassland, and I said I absolutely promise look at that moment again. for ten years into so many things are going wrong he dropped out of school. When I was fifteen by the time he was nineteen. He spent It truly is not me situation almost literally every waking moment, alternating between his ipod in his eye phone and his life was just this blair of what sap ici pornography the social media sites- and it was almost he was kind of wearing at the speed of snapchat when still serious could touch him. and one day we were sitting on my cipher justness to worm. Talking to you now and I'd be tried You talked to him all day and just now, was getting an attraction and speed an noticed with you. I wasn't not much better.

I'm start mine devices. And I suddenly remembered this moment, although she is before the term hey, listen, it's a relates completely blankly, didn't remember this and our did him and I said no less, let's break this numbing routine, let's go all over the south, but you got a problem one thing, which is that when we go you'll leave you phone in the hotel. During the day We talk about it and he said tat. I could see that breaking routinely appeal to him and I think it was too. weeks later, we took off from heathrow in london to to new orleans where we started Two weeks later we arrived the gates of grassland and when you get, That is even before covered. There's no one to show you around. happens. Is they hand you an ipad, and you pains me about the ipad. Shows you around, it says: go left got right, tells you story about that room and every guy that the river, when you go into this, a picture that regime on the ipad,

so what happens? Is everyone just walks around graceland staring at their ipads? it's slightly irritated by this. We got to the jungle room which was His favorite room, grassland, its full effect plants, was a canadian couple next to us, and there has been and to his wife and said. Honey. This is amazing. Look if you saw Left you can see the jungle room to the left and if you quite right. You can see the jungle to the right and left is getting an attorney watch them in there just swiping back and forth an eye I leaned over- and I said, but hey sir oh fashion, former swiping you could do it's cold, turning your head because look we're in the jungle room, you don't you look at it on your ipod, we're we're actually there and looked to me like. I'm is completely deranged and tat, the room- and I tend to my godson to laugh about it

and he was standing in the corner of the room staring at snapshot kiss from the minute we landed. He couldn't stop. And I went up to him and it is something that's never good. They with teenagers. I tried to grab the phone app is handed. I said I know you're afraid of missing out. This is guaranteeing the or miss out you. Not. Why not your life? You not present. existence we stormed off, so I wandered around memphis on my own for the rest of the day, and I found him that night at the heartbreak hotel, where we were staying, down the street and He was sitting by the swimming pool and I went up to him and he he was just kind of scrolling. Didn't look up at me by rejoiced in an and staring snapshot, but he said I know something's really wrong here. Know what it is, and I Last week, come away to deal with this crisis had been present. That crisis was everywhere that differ no escape. An obvious example that it will be,

virtually everyone who is listening today, unless the very fortunate went into amendment professor miller, MIT is one of the leading neuroscientist in the world. Then he said to me: does One thing you need to understand about the human brain anything else. You can only consciously think about one or two things a time? That's it is great. I met matter attention insight, that's it this. Is a fundamental limitation of the human brain the brain is not significantly changed him? Forty thousand years is not going to change on any timescale. Any of us are going to see you. Can I think about one or two things that time, but what's happened. Is we? women from mass delusion, the apple American teenager now believes they can follow six or seven forms of media. At the same time, so happens. Is scientist get people into labs, not just teenagers adults as well older people as well. Get them to think they're doing more than one thing at a time and what they covers always the same. You can't even wanting a time what you do is

juggle very quickly between tasks, your consciousness papers over quite aware of it, but your switching king switching switching, but what did he Ask me what was that on the television there? What's this message on? What's that white, what did he just ass megan, your juggling and it turns out that juggling comes with a really big costs. The technical term for that cost is this which cost effect. you're trying to more than one thing at a time you will do all the things you are trying to you're trying to do much less competently you'll make more mistakes. You remember less of what a day you'll be created, and this like a small effect, is a really big effect Example from a small study that is backed by a very small studies, but by much wider body of evidence, hewlett packard, there print accompany? Got some just to study the workforce and split the workers into two groups and the first It was told. Just get on with your task. Whoever is and you're not gonna, be interrupted

Secondly, it was talk on with your toss. Whatever is, but you gotta have to answer. Heavy load of email and phone calls the scientists tested the iq cube. These small groups that had not been interrupted, scored on average, ten on key points higher than the group had been interrupted. To give you a sense of how big an effect is, if you were me got stone together now you're in colorado, its legal if we sat down. But too fast, live together. Keys would go down in the short term by five points, so many what time he be better off sitting your desk, getting stoned and not being interrupted, then sitting your desk? getting stoned or being interrupted, will, but are not typically you'd, be better off, neither getting stoned nor being interrupted. Obviously, but you get a sense of how big this effect is. This is professor miller said to me. We live in a pie. The storm cognitive degradation is a result of all these interruptions. But What you're getting at your question, which is so important, is why Currently, using technology is designed to

Similarly interrupt us right. This is, in my view, into shorn parker whose, when the biggest initial investors in facebook he said We designed facebook to maximally distracts people evade their attention. We knew what we were doing and we did it anyway, God only knows what he's doing to our children's brains, that's what they say, and it's really to understand this mechanism because actually issued They give us hope, you're the way, big time want us to think about this debate, is our protests, or you antitank, right and of course, but also the rapporteur. Join the amish know. What I want is to no disrespect to any amish people were listening. I guess the cheating if they are- and that's not the debate- question is not a new protocol antitank. The question is what tech designed for what purposes working in whose interests so at the moment, Social media has been designed around one, particularly this model. It does not have to wear that way. So I, If you'd like people is combating.

Who designed key aspects of the technology and our kids use all the time right and a long time for them explaining it for me to really understand this. So let anyone listening if you are, don't do it, but if you open facebook, now what tiktok or twitter or any of the social major social media accounts apps. start to make money in two way straight away. The first ways really obvious you see a cave or listening knows how that works. The second way much more important every. you do on those apps- is scary, and and sorted body artificial intelligence, algorithms at those apps to build up a picture of who you are So, let's say that you can that you like, I don't know but middle Bernie sanders and you tell your mommy- just bought some diapers okay, so it figures out you liked bette midler and your man you're, probably gay, betty, saunders, you're, probably left wing and you look about buying diapers. You must have a baby so that building up

try if they got tens of thousands of data points so that they know who you are. partly so they can sell you two advertisers your attention they want to sell. All this information are appetizers can target you, because you are not the customer of these acts. You are the product they sell to the The customer is the appetizer, but more importantly, also learning the weaknesses in your attention, so they can feeding either things that will keep you scrolling, because the more Frequently you pick up your phone. and the longer you scroll the more money they make, so all these engineers in silicon valley. All these algorithms. All these engineering genius is built one thing figuring out, how can I get you to pick up your phone as often as possible? scroll as long as possible. It was important. The standards social media doesn't have to work that way different way. Social media can work, is entirely achievable and, as an analogy,

Can history that really help me to think about this intensive and you'll? Remember I remembered from when I was a kid, so not that long ago. The standard of gasoline in the united states was leaded petrol right. Let a gasoline and a bit before before my time periods to pay my hands would lead paint, and it was this with the exposure to lead is incredibly bad for your brain and particular about for children's ability to focus pay attention. So what happened? of ordinary moms. It was mostly mothers bandit, gather and said why we allowing this. Why we allowing these companies to ruin our children's brightens is crazy. Important is what they didn't say. They didn't say so we're anti gasoline, it didn't say so- we're anti paint didn't say, battle, gasoline and battle paint that we have been ridiculous. They said spanned. The specific component the gasoline in the lead is coming our kids attention they fall they fought for years. They succeeded as a result, the cdc the setup for disease control has calculus.

The average american child is two five iq points higher than they would have been had led not been banned right. She can see to me. This is a really important model. We are Something in the environment is binding on is harming our attention we ban together to act on the sites we get rid of that component, while retaining the goods. If that was around that component in the same way, so as a risk in invented key part of how the internet works his dad just Skin invented the apple mackintosh, Steve jobs, eyes said to me. You know this an equivalent to the lead in the lead paint he's a ban current business model for social media at what what kind of fancy term for surveillance capitalism. He said just tat say the model, a business model is based on tracking. You surveillance you in order to figure out the weaknesses in your attention, hack them. That's just inhuman, don't allow it and also people to say this to me before I really absorbed it and I'm in sang to asia

I cannot imagine we do that we ban the current business model and I opened faced the next day did you say you know Sorry, everyone gum fishing. He said, of course, not what would happen if they have to move to a different business model? Everyone listening has expired, of the two different business models: almost everyone the fastest. Scripture and everyone knows how netflix works. He paced automatic access, another model it about the sewers Before we had sewers we had faces in the street. We got cholera. So now we all pay so to be built and maintained, and we all only serious together, you own the susan, older, I own the serious in london in LAS vegas, the cities where I live. We own the suit in the places where we live. It may be just like we want on the sewage pipes together, one? Only information pipes together we're getting equivalent of cholera for our attention. Now, what

alternative business model we cheese is the important thing to understand is all the incentives change. At the moment. The incentives for social media companies into the ground. We get you in your kids to pick up. Your phone is often impossible and scroll as long as possible, these different models? Suddenly you become the customer, they have to go What is your honeymoon turns out. Yahoo wants to be to pay attention design or not to hack his attention, but to hear his attention. turns out your who wants to meet up with his friends offline, because people through good when they look into each other's eyes, broaden scarlet staring through the screens. Ok, let's design it to help people me up offline rather than to prevent them from meeting like incredibly technologically easy. My friends in silicon valley could do that tomorrow. The key thing is have to get the incentives right to do it and we can that right. There's no more The pain to say one last thing on this James Williams I mentioned before said to me: you know the axe existed for one point: four million years before anyone we put a handle on it,

Entire internet has existed for less than ten thousand days we can get if we want to get and any one you describe it this way in all make sense, and I think we ve we all feel like we ve been living in that matrix for killing attentive time now. The fact that has happened, everywhere. The same kind of polarization tells you that there are similar underlying mechanisms, so just that we have to deal with these this business model because it is harming individual attention as facebook's own data. Scientists said it is causing such polarization. That is, destroying our ability to collect simply pay attention to our promise to talk to each other, to listen to each other and to solve problems. You know, I think, a lot about here! You remember this. I remember it well as a kid the ozone layer, crisis right so younger, listens manner, remember this, but in the end, he's there was a chemical could cfcs that we'd has brazen fridges and we loved her has broken the eighties that were into the atmosphere and it turned out they were causing

damaging the ozone layer, which was a protective layer of ozone that surrounds the planet and access from the sun's rays and it was causing a hole in the ozone layer above the arctic. So what happened? Science was discovered explain to the public who were able to distinguish the truth from nonsense. Lies conspiracy theories, the public pressure. Political leaders all over the world view different kinds of governments from Margaret thatcher to the communist soviet union all in response to that pressure, band cfcs and now the ozone layer is healing right now. I do not if the ozone layer crisis happened. Now tat. We responded anything like the same way. I think he would get some people who would do the right thing is I act on science and they re little ozone layer, badges on their lapels and they build a whole identity around it. You would get other p. He would say. How do we even know the ozone layer exists?

I don't even know it's there. Maybe George soros made the hole in the ozone layer. Maybe evil jewish space lasers made the hole in the ozone, as also of mad filth, would stop being said and we would not be able to act to all you know So it's really important. I dont be nostalgic about the eighty seven lots of things from under the eighties, but we got with these mechanisms, because if we don't deal with this, we cannot happen anything done right. If we call talk to each other listening think rationally, whisk screwed you writing at the end of the day. Comes down to is something I say on a fairly regular basis. Attention is life, the quality and the and death of our attention, I think in no small part determines equality and death and lift of our lives individually and collectively. I think this is really what speaking to in coming out from all these different angles and also saying it not just about you. Yes, there are things that you ve been doing your individual life, but let's assume the ones out and let's talk about collectively

to really going on here, and let's do some re, imagining a deafening cards folks to dive into this piece of because it really lays out and a lot of detail that near your book, What's really going on also offers a whole bunch of like and and it and it's not fatalistic also, it says this is a tough moment, but there's hope- and there are things can do and their examples out there. Oh, I'm profoundly optimistic that we can do this and you know when I get pessimistic. Recent new sites me let these forces are really powerful right, I would say to them most strange, but when they said to me. The nickel about my grandmother's, who I loved very deeply, my grandmother's, with the age I am now in nineteen sixty three One of them is a working class scottish living in one in the: u S, we call housing project, and the other one is the swiss women living in a wooden hot on the side of a man him and in sixty three when they were the age. I am now Neither of them were allowed tat. Bank accounts, because there

married women, their husbands had to control the bank. Can it was legal for their husbands to write them, as it was legally every country in the world for men to write his wife Swiss grandmother wasn't even allowed to vote to vote until nineteen seventy right. Think about their lives and how this They get their lives whereby sexism and misogyny my grandmother's never got tat lives. They should have had enough his grandmother, love to paint andrew and I told her to shop and get into the kitchen and then Think about my nieces liked. I don't want to underestimate how far we got to go or how much backlash backlashes happening but when my niece love to paint and draw wouldn't tell it to shop and get into the kitchen, we start giggling art schools right even the craziest deranged rightwing congressmen to some crazy place, wouldn't dream of saying that my, it should be legal for my needs to be raped and she shouldn't be allowed to have a bank account and she didn't have the vote right. That would be unthinkable right

and when people say to me let these forces you're saying we have to take on a really powerful. I say to you, I say to them: you're, damn right, then no one. just as powerful as men were. Nineteen sixty three men controlled really every institution, a power in the world. Every company. Every country, everything right, had ever since those institutions have been created, except for huge few hereditary queens along the way right. The way, and if that generation did not give up, they got up and they fought, and they said we're not gonna. Take this anymore and I argue in the book stress, can their own dozens of things we can do as individuals right now no individual lives and I am strongly in favour of all of that and talk about it, I argued deal with this in the medium to long term. We just we needed a native feminist movement for women to reclaim their bodies in their lives. we need an attention movement to reclaim my mines and absolute leave, we can do that. We don't tolerate this. We don't

to accept Our minds and our children's mines being diminished in the way that they are right now right, these are relatively recent changes. They are not acts of god there. Now. You know man the things that have been done by humans and their things that can be undone by humans. But this happened by accident. If we do nothing of all of us do nothing that these policies, continue to pillage and writers and I'll get better and better on it. And then we're ready pretty damn good right. but they're. Not gods huckaback is a rather weak mediocre bazin bright. We can note respect Jamie's, not the devil, but it is also not the impressive. We can push back against this. If we want to write, we can absolutely deal with this, but we have to understand Twelve underlying causes of sea touched on a few wasted. Deeply understandable to follow the example of those mothers who didn't know my kids to be poisoned with lead right,

there was a lot led. The lead industry was really powerful, they didn't just say, oh well. What can we do? Let's individually, try to dust our homes, more who called these forces and as a result, you no date, they won right, can win this one, but we have to fight Elizabeth Warren said once you don't get what you don't fight for and Cosima Really frightened by the agreed that is before us politics or not that the principle is Should it be right, you don't get where you don't fight for their powerful point, fears I get place for us to come. Full circle not conversation as well, so as reason. The ones out little bit and agenda sit here in this container of good life project. If I offer the phrase live a good life but comes up. to live a good life. You have to have a mixture of you know. We want speed and busyness and distraction. That's a healthy part of life, but you have to space to think deeply and reflect and rest. You don't think about something.

Basic as we sleep twenty percent less than we did a century ago right We deny denying ourselves even the most basic physical need for sleep right, which is having a disastrous effect on our attention is doctor charles size, their other medical school said to me, even if nothing else it changed, but that we sleep twenty percent less than we used to that alone. would be causing a huge crisis in our attention is focused, so a good life is a life where we have depth as well buzzy moments of excitement and speed right. I'm not I'm not everyone's go into the room and read a book all the time we want to have both. almost everyone wants to have. Both they want to be able to think deeply are. They would have moments of fun in bars and speed, right You gonna way too far towards everything being vast acceleration, constant switching We can recalibrate and we have to recalibrate, thank you. I really enjoyed this. Thank you so much I meant to say my publishes tells me that the because events-

an audio books, epochal physical book and people can get it started focused booked como, I meant to say it bookstore, but the treaty You can also get it at like shitty bookstores we'd have like a quality test where we don't let you could also on the websites dollar the focus book dot com. You can listen for free to audio. Conversations with loads of the experts that we'd mentioned airlines. What we we haven't mentioned, as well as a mother parade.

that project is monster by mastered classified as somebody who is constantly looking to grow. I have been using master class for years now with over a hundred and eighty classes, topped by the world's best across just so many passions cooking. Writing they go shaken. It's like having a personal mentor anytime. I want. I was actually just watching their ultimate guide to effective communication, playlist and loved this short and sweet lesson from lavoro burden about how powerful pauses can be. When communicating it, something that I think about a lot when interviewing and speaking, but I dont always remembered it do it so this was just such a great refresh and helping me create moments of conversation or presentation where I really want people to lead into the experience. I love how master class helps me. Imagine a bigger future, while also giving me practical steps to get there, so this holiday season give the gift of growth and confidence, give one annual membership and get one free at master class, dotcom slush, good life right now you can get to membership for the price of one at master class, dot, com, slash, good life, master class, dot, com, slash good life or just click. The link in a show notes offer terms, apply

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This episode of good law project is supported by Subaru, so love is all around during the subaru share the love event. Every year the Subaru community comes together for the subaru share the love event collectively supporting causes that make an incredible impact on both a national and a local scale. So, by the end of this year, the sixteenth year of the Subaru share the love event. Subaru and its retailers will have donated over two hundred and eighty five million dollars to charities like the a s p c, a make a wish meals on wheels, the national park foundation and more than twenty one hundred hometown charities. So imagine a world where, over one hundred, sixty thousand animals have been supported. Thirty three hundred wishes granted to children with critical illnesses. Four point: three million meals provided to seniors and over four hundred national parks protected all through sixteen years of the Subaru share the love event, and for me this is such a powerful example of both walking the walk of generosity and caring and of living a good life. I have been such a big fan of Subaru for years now, both because I drive a subaru which has gotten me through some very snowy moments, with confidence and ease and the colorado rockies, but also because of their genuine dedication, to doing good as someone who lives in boulder and has a deep connection to the outdoors and the impact that nature has on my well being, I love how Subaru share the love event supports the national park foundation so that we can all have more access to the restorative power of nature. So thanks subaru for really making a difference, because for every new Subaru vehicle purchased or leased during the Subaru share, the love event. Subaru and its retailers will donate a minimum of three hundred dollars to charity. The subaru share the love event now through january. Second,

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right now at master class, dotcom, slash, good life, master class, dot, com, slash good life or just click. The link in the shadows. So you hunt story really nice curiosity round hidden habits of focus by understanding these unseen influences as his journey showed. We can gain empowering insights. Our next asked is doctor Gloria mark chancellors, professor of informatics, at using irvine and for over fifteen years she has taken a granular look at how technology impacts, focus through rigorous studies from

extensive research, examining distraction, multitasking and moods online see really seeks to understand attention. In physics like precision and by closely observing everything from how long we really spent on each task to correlating interruptions with stress levels, she gets technical with attention to reveal hidden habits, so whether you feel perpetually paul than a dozen directions or want to optimize focus our findings. Just me cried the code on watch fracturing our most fleeting, yet precious resource attention itself cares gloria, topic of attention. I think, is on everybody's mind for a lot of different reasons, and a lot of different ways is a lot of conversation around it and ears, you lead with a star in. Beginning on your website in the book. which is around some resources you ve done, which is that it would it's kind of a mind. Boggling staff that the average person spends just forty, seven seconds on any screen before shifting their attention. Tell me more at this level,

start by saying that I've been tracking Attention span for a long time and I started tracking them back in around two thousand four so before we had sophistical the computer lacking techniques and we would follow people round would stop watches My goal was to get objective measures of attentions bands as opposed to having people simply self report and say: oh, I think my attention span is this. We wanted to get really solid measures we started. using these a stopwatch switch as you can imagine, is very labour intensive. But then we, which to computer, locking techniques and over the last five six years. We find that attention spans average about forty seven seconds on any screen. This has been replica

He did by other people, as well as one person fifty seconds on average. Another person found forty four seconds on average I've sit on multiple studies. Where I get very close to this forty seven mark and taking all these studies together, averages forty seven seconds so its role is short and if we look at the mid point Our observations, midpoint means median. Maybe something are familiar with that term. That's forty seconds That means that hats of oliver observations that we find our forty seconds or less so We have this. Finding the people's attention is very dynamic. Their ship screens there. either it's on their computer or phone, and I this kind of behaviour, kinetic kinetic, referring to being very dynamic,

opposed to having long, sustained folk yeah. That's right kind label, further, that quality with egypt. There are a lot of other words and I think we probably can think about most people. tend to think of there being two states of attention being focused or unfocused, and when I first studying this. I realise that sometimes we can give engaged with something requires a lot of mental effort, so we can be very challenged if I'm reading something difficult Reading tax law, which is not a favorite thing of mine, but something you know. I've I've had to do it really involves a lot of challenge. For me, there is other things we do where we can be very engaged and hunted all challenged like when were playing solitaire were you're playing some I shooter game or you know

doing some simple activity outside. We call that brought attention right, you're, very engaged, but you're not I'll challenged in what you're doing it's easy, wait. You're doing is very easy. if you're not engaged and not challenged, we call border state of boredom and if you're challenge but not engaged, we, Well that frustration and example is when I have attacked problem, it's very challenging for me, and I am just not engaged tarred for me to stay engaged with trying to fix fact so people switch among all these different types of attention throughout the deck, It turns out that the focused pension when you're engaged and challenged. And to have a rhythm. Throughout the day we find there are to be two peaks

bid to light morning, and then there is another piece mid. afternoon and what we did was we we probed people on there. There are some phones throughout the day and we just ask them two very simple questions: how engaged were you in the thing you are just doing and how challenged were you, and so we were able to get a range of these kinds responses throughout the day across watson. People for multiple days and weeks rapid out onto these different hopes of attention that I talked about and we, In order to be these peaks, focused time the morning afternoon and it corresponds to the ebb and flow of the limit. attention and resources that we have one of the other things at you. You talk about new right about. Is this notion of multitasking

and I've heard so many different takes on this and its fascinating. How this would fold into a conversation around attention? in a world where it seems like the pace of everything is accelerating expectations about productivity and what you could should be able to get accomplished accelerating and being heightened, Much as I think so. Many of us have heard well multitasking is actually less effective and creates a lot more wasted time and switching cost and wrapping times it still the dominant mode that we operate in white winning here. First of all, people by and large mano chronic, and that means people prefer to do one thing at a time before, moving on to something else, the problem is that we live in a polly, chronic world. We live a world that puts d

and on us to behave in polly, chronic ways. Polly chronic means, switching among different hands or multitasking. So you know in the workplace Of course, we would all love to do minor, chronic work, but we get emails. We have people coming into the office. We have meetings that we have to attend to get phone calls constantly switching our attention based on the demands of the environment, and so it's like were were square pegs with preferences forced into round holes to do something. That's just not basic torn natures, now talked about is multitasking a good thing. It's not a good thing. First of all, multitasking does not in that we're doing two things fully in parallel right what were actually doing switching our attention

If one of those things is automatic, like you can walk and taxed, walking is automatic. Sure you can, the two things at the same time, but if two things require some kind of mental effort. You cap what doing instead is for switching our attention sometimes rapidly, so no being and assume meeting. I think many people had the experience, you're and zoom in you're. Trying to do your email same time and your stretching back and forth no one in our committee, but we ve heard about the sure. Of course, net never were were completely innocent and ensure it seems to work fine until your name is called it and it's too for you to answer a question or report you. I have no idea what had been going on in the meeting, Spain. Your attention was on your email, so when people, tat, there are three things that way: it's bad

number one is people make more errors. We know that from debt, kids of research in the laboratory. We from real world studies studies of nurses and physicians show that they make were errors. Wendy switch, our attention when they multitask physician. make more prescribing yours when there multitasking, which is quite concerning pilots, make more We also know that you mentioned the idea of a switch cost that Every time we switch our attention to something else. We to reorient to that your task and the best way I can decide what's going on by using a metaphor, matching but whiteboard inside your mind. Every time you move to a new task. You need a ride, presentation of what the task is

what information you need the way you're going to work on it and your friend, an information onto this. whiteboard in your mind and then suddenly you're switching to do something else like checking email, you're, a raising that whiteboard, if your mind in writing the new information that you to do emo rightly meter understand HU, the sender, is, and why you should delete and white you should respond to and then suddenly you switch to do something else. Your racing that model in writing new information, but in the same way that we can't always completely I raise a white poured in britain we can always fully raise the content In our mind, though, I put in our mind sometimes it leaves a residue and you don't imagine that you read some really upsetting news article and then you want to go back to work

That emotion can stay with us and interfere with her task at hand. The time it takes for to be doing switching. That is this which cost it takes longer. First, her perform multiple tasks, compete. If we just did one right after the other, but the real name, in the coffin is that tight, tasking increase. the stress We know that the causal effect. We know that people are switching their attention fast there? dress- goes up, ever tory studies show that blood pressure increases when people multitask there is a physiological marker in the body that increases when people multitask and We found in our research when people where heart rate monitors, which provides a measure of stress that when we correlate that with

attention. Switching, we find that stress goes up in fact We try to control for all the things we can. Think of that can creates, dress things like job role. Job demands gender and create after controlling for that, we find that stress, increases. So it's not a good back to do multinational one. The other measure that was really interesting is around the notion of flow. I think It is a concept that a lot of us have experience. It was popularized by merely to semi high and and It's this state of affairs absorption people. Experience almost on a level bless become held up in culture, as is its like it's. The ultimate aspiration is the ultimate state to aspire to bid different lens on this. I do first of all, the notion the flow is

me how you sheikh somehow he describes as the optimal experience it's when in a people are extremely creative, you're, so deeply immersed in something that time doesn't seem to matter. It sounds great right and it is good. but is also not realistic, and let me explain what I mean by that before I entered the field of psychology actually was an artist. So I had studied art and I used to get into flow regularly when I worked in my studio and you know, sometimes hours would go by and then all of a sudden I would notice of my car- should cite two or three o clock in the morning. I pray he said should get home. and so I would enter flow regularly and it was the nature of the work that I did that enable

me to enter a flow state because art is inherently creative and if you talk people who play music or people who to sports were dancers or people. We have a hobby woodworking would very easy to enter a flow state right. These are inherently creative activities, but if you're a person who does knowledge, work and a lot of the work that we during the day, not necessarily conducive to flow so what do I do? I conduct research I wise data right papers. I interview people all activities, involve my doing, analytical thinking right. I have to work hard to concentrate on what I'm doing it doesn't necessarily give me into flow,

occasionally, if I'm brainstorming with someone I might get into flow, but Most of the time I don't expect to, and I've studied lots and lots of knowledge workers over the years, and people were for the same kinds of things that in may be in a group brainstorming session. They might get into flow if you doing complex coding. People can get into flow for most of the kinds of activities, people do, especially when we use our devices not realistic to expect that we get into flow, but I want to point out is that a bad thing it doesn't beam that it's not rewarding are fulfilling. It can be extremely fulfilling in the world I do is, is so rewarding, but I'm not in flow, and I can recognize the difference from when I an artist and got into flow regularly know them.

Since the swords less about there's not saying there is added value in this state is just the real stake nature of the way that so many people work, especially in a knowledge of the work related field. There are a lot of hurdles to be malta to entering that place and then stay there for any meaningful amount of time. So it makes it almost wonder the aspiration at that point then becomes we're point of frustration because it like well, I should be there. I strive to be there, but I just can't so maybe there's something wrong with me or what I'm doing a bit. It's interesting frame, I think same thing. I think that there are these petitions that we share. you getting into flow and if we can do so wrong with its maybe we're. Not creative people and I would say no, of course, you're a creative person but put yourself in a different situation that gives you a opportunity to experience flow. You know play music,

sports him there's a lot of opportunities to expire It's for doing right, climbing you can experience flow flow is really about experiencing the right balance of using your skill. Also having the right amount of challenge. If you're wrong. watching a netflix movie. that's not being in flow right. It's really about think that people are performing something there doing. But you know I have to emphasize tat if you dont get into flow for anyone who expects that they should and fills don't worry about it. it's an unrealistic expectations to think that should be and flow so often so, let's think about what might be more realistic, which is understanding butcher, personal rhythm of attention is an urging that and designing your day, so there

you're doing the hardest work and the work that requires the most creativity for those times when your attention is at its peak- and you won't form well and you'll, feel rewarded. Now? I love that piece of advice if he has a good place for us to come full circle and our conversation is well and always wrap up with the same question. here curious what your thoughts are in this container of good life project. If I offer up the phrase living life. What comes up I think it so important to be with people people, you love people, you have deep friendships people with who you feel safe and can be creative with theirs. Nothing. I love more than just being creative around other people. So for me, that's a good life to be just surrounded by,

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This episode of good law project is supported by Subaru, so love is all around during the subaru share the love event. Every year the Subaru community comes together for the subaru share the love event collectively supporting causes that make an incredible impact on both a national and a local scale. So, by the end of this year, the sixteenth year of the Subaru share the love event. Subaru and its retailers will have donated over two hundred and eighty five million dollars to charities like the a s p c, a make a wish meals on wheels, the national park foundation and more than twenty one hundred hometown charities. So imagine a world where over one hundred, sixty thousand animals have been supported. Thirty three hundred wishes granted to children with critical illnesses. Four point: three million meals provided to seniors and over four hundred national parks protected all through sixteen years of the Subaru share the love event, and for me this is such a powerful example of both walking the walk of generosity and caring and of living a good life. I have been such a big fan of Subaru for years now, both because I drive a subaru which has gotten me through some very snowy moments, with confidence and ease and the colorado rockies, but also because of their genuine dedication, to doing good as someone who lives in boulder and has a deep connection to the outdoors and the impact that nature has on my well being, I love how Subaru share the love event supports the national park foundation so that we can all have more access to the restored power of nature. So thanks subaru for really making a difference, because for every new Subaru vehicle purchased or leased during the Subaru share, the love event. Subaru and its retailers will donate a minimum of three hundred dollars to charity. The subaru share the love event now through january. Second

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so I love how Gloria shares such illuminating details into attention puzzles through her meticulous studies. Her findings generally spark curiosity around optimizing. This allusive focus our net, and final guest is best author gretchen reuben. Through her exhaustive studies of habit and human nature, she discovered what he calls the four distinct tendencies that shape expectations and her breakthrough. Work reveals how unseen patterns impact every domain from deadline dashes two new year's resolutions by delving into literature and meeting with nobel laureates. She leverages multi disciplinary lenses to really see hidden behaviors with new eyes, and now she helps others understand their tendencies to through eliminating books and podcast. So whether you feel at the whim of forces, you can't name or want self awareness, gretchen work and her protein words just may help cracker innate codes around how you direct your attention, hairs, gretchen

so I kind of gonna die right in with you, because you ve been working on something that has fascinated you for a long time now to cut it grew out of your last book. Yes, so tell what happened here so I was I set out to write a book about habit changed. You know it was ended up being my book better than before, and so I was like. Ok, what are the secrets of habit change like? How can people change their habits and as I got into it, I started notice. So, first of all I noticed. Okay, there is no magic. One size fits all answer and if somebody tells you that you should do it for thirty days or two first thing in the morning or set all the books. Tell you there. I know that there is not is like at all events any so what I learned was that it really depends on you and that there are twenty one strategies that people can use to make or break their habits, and so that thought I was getting, but did they It was puzzling, may cut of the deeper pattern that was puzzling. Me was were kept saying certain things to me that

didn't bring true for me personally, so they were kind of they were sort of striking me because they didn't they were things that I didn't identify with that. They were saying it is if they thought it was like a universal truth, and they were. Exactly the same thing like it was uncanny, how all different people of all different personalities would say these similar things, and I was trying to figure out the pattern because it clearly had a lot to do with habits so, for instance, We talked to cause. I am kind of like a happiness bully, as my sister calls me, and so I would constantly be talking to people about their habits when they could change them when they couldn't change them, and so there was a group of people well who all said something like well. I can always take time their people, but I can't take time for myself and that struck me cause. I don't feel that way. I don't feel like that true for me, and then there was another group of people would I was his and they like. Well, how do you feel that nears resolutions, they would say? Well, I would keep a new year's resolution if I wanted to, but I wouldn't do it on january first, because January first is an arbitrary date, and I was like ha

never really bothering me that its arbitrary, like they all use that word that really struck me and then I m Conversely, I have several kind of like a kidney style conversations that one I was that a cocktail party at a woman said to me talking about habits and she said well, I don't want to have any habits. I don't want to have routines. I don't want to lock myself in and I said to her well for me. Discipline is my freedom. and I really believe that that is true for me, and she looked at me like I was not. Then she said that make any sense, because freedom means no rules, and I was like while we really see the world into her way and then I realized I do see the world in a different way and I began to see how people fell into these very big. Four categories that explained why they were saying these things to me and why this was showing up their habits and was showing up in lots of different parts of their lives, You never the moment that you're like em, like

is it I remember looking at the two duellist thinking. This is expectations, and I mean in a new at that moment that that was the key thing, but then it took me a time to like plot. out and then I couldn't. I couldn't visualize it because I kept thinking. What do you call? two by two, when it's like four boxes, and I was trying to put them into the boxes, but I can't figure out how they related to each other like which, which one went where, and it is somehow and when a rose was actually than diagram in a diamond shape, the minute I saw it and it was like meets inner, meets outer meets inner resists outer resists outer resistant. I mean once I saw that I was like. Oh my god, this is it, and I remember when I did that when I sketched out the circles. and realise that it was it was like. You know, it's like a fool on fraud or nautilus, shall has this this elegance of nature, always is kind of symmetrical so perfectly symmetrical, That's what made you learn? How did you know was for well at it

I mean it was truly like the most gruelling intellectual task of my life, and I say that as somebody who worked on a lot of orissa opinions, which is this horrible written and yet you got your former lawyer seen on talking about an eye. These patterns, and I I could feel that their work patterns there, but I couldn't figure out what they related to. I couldn't figure out what was at the heart of it. I didn't know how many there were, because I didn't know what it was so I just kept heavy, but I would have these things that would stick in my head, like this, congress is probably the most important conversation I had with somebody was when I had lunch with a friend and she said I would be happier if by exercised. I was in high school. I was on the track team and I never miss track practice So why can't I go running now and this question just haunted me, I knew the minute. You said that it was a super super important question in that I had to figure out. The answer is no, things going on my head, and then

There was a sitting there looking at my to do list for some reason, I thought. You know I'm meeting my expectations and I realized that was the key. Was this idea of expectations outer expectations and inner expectations and I saw that I began to see how the four tendencies fall into these perfect. lapping categories so there had to before. There could not be any more than four because for took care of jimmied outer expectation. turkey resist our expectations to meet our expectations are de resist inner expectations. It sort of like or covers all them, so, let's just quickly just define actually define the four different tenants Ok, so it is about how you meet expectations, our expectations and inner expectations. So they're up upholders cos. to obliges and rebels. upholders, readily mean outer and inner expectations. So they me to work deadline. They keep in years resolution without much fuss

they want to know what's expected of them from other people, but their expectations for themselves are just as important dinner questioners question. question all expectations. They'll do something if they think it makes sense, they hate anything arbitrary or irrational or unjustified, so they may everything in inner expectations, because if it meets their standard, then they'll do it, but if it doesn't they resist. So these are the people who think being reversed is an arbitrary date. They just they don't like anything, arbitrary oblige yours readily meet our expectations that they struggle to meet our expectations of this my friend on the track team who could go running when she had a team in a coach waiting for her expecting her when she was just going running on her own. She struggled and then apples rebels resist all expectations outer and inner like they want to do what they want to do in their own way in their own time? And if you ask or tell them to do something there very likely to resist typically, they don't even want to tell themselves what to do so. This My friend, who said freedom means no rules. She was

double. Unlike now. Looking back on our conversation, she was like. I would now she checked every box of rebel, and so these are. The four tendencies Really truly. Do believe that on that just about everybody, it into one court tendency interesting, because it's not always immediately easy, now eager out the guy- and you know like I say what you yeah. She created, I mean, did extensive information serving the book, and I want dive into some of that We call it yours, you gonna, think you do this when the last but came out you you created the on the. Is everybody s request? People can still taken it that happier cast our coms last quiz. a light as evil, don't even need to take it, but it's there if you want to get it, I'm so fascinated you had this tremendous idea and now got a zillion people. Have you taken this. You got some recent research validated and a lot of really interesting levels. for those listening absolutely wool, including the janitor link to the quotas, because you probably already have a sense for what the tendency is through this camera. And butter. I found the quiz really helpful in helping

especially distinguish between like em, am I actually a questioner or an obligee who kind of liens? And while I remember you saying that when you you sort of had one kind of area of life in your mind, sort of as you're answering the questions and in fact, because of that in the book I said china think of one arrogant life s darted through answer the classes try to keep a very general cause. I was thinking that you will you and I had that congress, the air and and the bookcase was actually so helpful for me because it really went into its in so much at is so much more and I love how we didn't have a chance to get into a really all that much here, but how you did laid out where, like here's, the overlap like like and uphold upholder, who tips this when tips this way and had a really certain like navigate those things, I think dumb,

such a valuable tool answers. It's almost like a technology to allow people to understand how to interact with each other, much more positive ways and lead to positive outcomes in the world. So full circle was hanging out here. The asked good life products to the last question. I always come back to. If I asked you what it means living life. He notary, a good life is one where I have made my expectations for myself yet, which is the upholder answer. No, I mean it's like a kid. You identify The aims that you want and and do the things that are going to bring them, bring them they're like we want law. If I want love in my life, how do I act in a way that I bring more love into my life or if I want more learning how to bring more learning said? To me, a good life is where I know those things are in working towards them. Thank you,

Thank you, so much gravity is so fun. I love how gretchen shines a light on the tendencies decoding patterns within all of us through a multi disciplinary lens, really empower self knowledge, so I hope Johann Gloria in corrections. Insights have ignited curiosity around optimizing, your most elusive, yet critical resource attention and focus by understanding, hidden habits and tendencies. We can better focus on what energizes our unique potential thanks for joining me on this journey, cracking the codes that guide our distracted days go forth and reclaim presence your good life awaits and if you loved this episode be sure to catch the fall conversations with today's guests, they're fantastic and you can find a link to those episodes in the show notes. And of course, if you haven't already done so, please go ahead and follow a good life product in your favorite listening app and if you've found this conversation, interesting or inspiring or valuable, can chances are you did since you're still listening here? Would you do me a personal favor, a seven second favorite and share it, maybe on social or by text or by email, or even just with one person? Just copy the link from the app you're using and tell those you know those you love those you want to help navigate this thing called life a little better, so we can all do it better together with more ease and more joy. Tell them to listen, then even invite them to talk about what you've both discovered, because when podcasts become conversations and conversations become action, that's how we all come alive together until next time on Jonathan fields, signing off for good life project,

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