I have met while I was nervous ahead of time at the royal waiting once I was preaching. I wasn't because Doing what I do you know. think about it, people who, We give them awards, we give them there is an amazing, tony I may make a lot of money because acting is hard work being who you actually are, It's not hard work it actually letting go of a load of having to pretend Having a prove yourself. is presenting your best self and I just think this incredible liberation in there and I'm still trying to grow into a more more does at some point yet there. You know what like me this Make love me that love me gotta, be me,

and me is ok. So how do you stepped into conversations, whether personal, professional, family, friends, colleagues, even perceived or real adversaries and still find a place for love in that conversation? Even when you wildly disagree, is that even possible in some situations? Is it asking way too much, or is it the only way to finally feel the way you want to feel and resolve an issue approach any other way that would remain forever intractable? Will that's what we're talking about with today's gas, the most reverend Michael curry, who is the first african american individual to serve as the presiding bishop and primate of the squabble, church, chief past your president and cheating. officer and chair of the executive council of the episcopal church in born in chicago in the fifties, with a dad who was an episcopal priest, his mom died at a young age and he and his sister were raised in a family that was rooted not just in faith.

But in social activism, through his father's leadership and his own dedication to writing a broken world. and eventually ordained himself in nineteen. Seventy eight bishop curry grew increasingly active on issues of social justice, reconciliation, immigration and marriage, equality, often taken positions that request due to a broader tradition and never shying away from opportunities to invite people, challenge convention in the name of creating a more inclusive community that welcome all with love and dignity. It may have to eighteen. Bishop curried delivered a moving sermon on the redemptive power of love at then print harry and megan mortals royal wedding just months after serving as the efficient for the state funerals of Senator John Mccain and president george w bush in the Washington national cathedral, hungary, has also written five bucks, his latest love. the way holding onto hope in travelling times, which

spans upon his focus on love as the centrepiece were a new way to live and find meaning and peace. even at a time where they can seem so hard to access, we explore all of this in two days. Best of conversation so excited to share with you. I have jonathan fields, and this is good. Life project That's dive in. I am from new york raised, cherish very in a very non practising way, but with all the traditions. So I hadn't zero exposure to the episcopal church, no extra, you're too you whatsoever until a few ago. I, along with oh two billion, or so people around the world to gain as he I didn't tuning live to watch the row wedding, but then yeah, I think, was the next day. I just really quickly just search and as everybody talking

the sermon from us person named bishop curry said, pulled it off. and I watched this survey, which I might I recording was twelve or thirteen minutes. Absolutely captivated watching you and I realize that it was on two levels. One was the words, the ideas that you are sharing. Other was this sort of study. In contrast where on you, it was you. In is deeply aristocratic reserved culture and setting, but you being utterly alive and emotional and fear, and I wondered why That moment was like for you on on both those levels in terms of sharing ideas, your sharing this context and also experience,

in this contrast and wonder if you felt that as well, we are you know, aren't I mean I really did I mean you, you couldn't not be aware on some levels and on other levels. I was in church, which the territorial relatively familiar with and where Have they made there's probably some advantages to being in your mid sixtys when you do something like that, because at this page of life. I have too much to prove. I don't bake, I mean I'm just got a happy to still be here. You know, that's probably the exit, so it probably had this advantage in bed. I suspect, but I've The contrast were built into the occasion and sure that everybody was aware of it. I need the couple Was aware they were aware, They were aware of what they were doing. And they were ass. A contrast, ease british she's american. british aristocracy and a white guy, and she his black multiracial

broadly share the same politics ass, his bag. But I'm really know that day at represent two different countries in Malta. We'll cultures, I you said one sort of aristocratic and venerable and old. Hers more mixed, very much like an american I'm in that respect and They were bringing back together, but not only in embodied in the two. Then you hadn't embodied in the audience and two billion people. That's like If the people on the planet, you know who could watch t v, I mean that was pretty much all of us and They you know they had that marvelous gospel choir, which people people, but I brought them from america. I said no they're in london, they're they're, proud of you all and a marvelous gospel choir. There, a cello asked a young he's, probably maybe twenty one now and he was like nineteen years old. and to listen to him command an orchestra. Needless to say, this wasn't, like you know, slapdash

just read it. This was like about the best you can get. and is nineteen year old, black british kid commanded me. I said, oh god now. I know what you're your mama was like it at nineteen. You know to meet those all this was going on and then you had me, I'm in and out of england a lot because people europe is part of an can family church of england. All it has done so in order from meetings in that kind of stuff, I've never seen england that excited about anything. I mean that's just not their way, but people had flags, they will wait. I mean you saw union jacks all over the country. It was just- it is really. It was a moment of joy, not just for written, but I'm in america we people get up early in the morning. Our look. the you know the hats doing. I haven't parties all over it go on over the world. I've been in africa where the people are watching their in east asia, people what something different was going on it

study, in contrast in it bigger than what was once an empire. It was bigger than a straw. The five class structure society, bigger than rachel differences and variety. It was bigger Then religious differences and variety it was bigger emmy. It was I've been big was going on. I could feel it. A kind of new it ahead of time being there, I was very much aware and then after would very much aware that I really do believe You know in the movie. Color purple am basin, Alice walker s book, and there's a scene where therefore the bar and your party and all night in it in the morning. The broken the church part it well If we're going to borrow still sing in ibarra song in the fog and the church, singing a gospel song and after a while the folk in the church, they really start rocking with a gospel song and the fall.

The bar here it while the girl who led the woman whose leading the bar stop is the daughter of the preacher whose alienated, she said were practical and she comes out and start singing the song and leading the boat from the back into the church. And the song they sing is, god is trying to tell you some deal and that in that experience. god was trying to tell us something about god, dream invasion for the human family. and one none of us anticipated a pandemic. this kind of world wide strife. While no one was consciously thinking of impact on climate and what that's gonna mean how we're going to navigate through that is there may have been a message in this together Need each other. You need me,

do it that way. We can figure our way through yeah, not to go person that I've been. I wish I was but a man. I mean I'm in order that, but I could see that you could feel that their and think those contracts were brought together. The god would try, tell us up there It does feel it. There were something bigger. There is a much bigger context, slash container, slash on, looking back that really infiltrated the moment and, as you said, would be beautiful. If we could keep that growing at expanding and amplify now you, a recent that that you can open, someone else's heart without being true around when you commit to being yourself in any environment, even your prayers This can be a powerful prerogative and its like, when you stepped into that room, it almost like you may day, a decision that I step in as me as As all of me, the way I have always been

that sort of speaks to what you opened with which, as you know, sixty some odd years into life. Maybe this a little bit easier. Also, you been doing this a long time. You know who you are so it it it gives you access to that different right. They get help. I would you really does because army and why you continue to be formed and you didn't. We continue to grow and evolve and about that's that Good, that's life. I mean I mean you're still alive, the only things that don't grow. Where did so you still growing evolving developing alike as the butt there's a sense in which we also have an up and I've been down. You know and now there more to come. I'm sure um. I'm ok with Michael my imperfections imperfections. Ok, that's all the latin keep trying. Improve and grow I'm ok that the pace is sometimes low, Annie

at sixty or sixty five whenever that, when that, when that service has actually happened, I was just very aware of that kind of settled, yet I mean it. That's fright at the pre frightening it didn't look too big and people were going to be watching. I had no idea how many people would have watched, probably at the good yeah and and two easy to forget the directly on television, because it s the chaplet Saint george chapel, the cameras are racist. You can't see them they don't actually sees not like the old before you or greece. Cameron, a camera person stand by it you, don't you, don't actually see them, so you almost forget that the cameras are there, which is dangerous because you'll want to scratch your nose or something whole world good night, see you scratch your nose. An arm after a while even though you are sitting in the midst, especially in that part of the sanctuary,

ro families all up there- I mean in you know, that's a pretty intimidating kind of crowd. I mean an there were certain infused is like europe vote. We have been around for a long time go bad, my grandma, I know george folk body language, even if they don't say anything so I if they're asleep, If there really man, pension or the proud of it, you can read the face you can wreak. You can read the eyes If there were moments when I could see okay, we're connected we're talking, there's a conversation going on, even though they know a man's coming back at me and nobody's in another shout and rana there, but I could see respond to human response, the response of Seoul talking to Seoul and that I mean I know that that's I, from all the years of being a pastor and a preacher and I've learned that when heart trudges art, when soul,

I just saw That's when something is happening. Everything this preliminary to that, but when touch his heart. To have a lady when I was a young young priests in my thirty. Man is in lincoln heights allowed outside of Cincinnati all black town on the outskirts of this of the city. That was actually settled in the twenties part of that great migration that number people written about over the years and with it it was a fairly poor settlement of blacks going north from the south, I'm heading north in the twenties thirty's. long and short. Eventually there was a church founded there and to this day it's a small one square mile. Basically black african american, community, to this day struggling with all of the issues that are attended to that but I was there in the eighties, there were a few only want one or two people in our gaze knew. I was aware of who problem

They didn't read or if they, It was not very well on. One of them was a dear woman. it is a domestic work for many years and was in the seventies when I was there and she still having to work. As you know, so, security is a blessing, but is not enough. It is not enough as he would come to the early service at seven because she, I guess you would work the evening and and when, when she would, you know feel good about something. She would light something become a community clap her hand to say. Thank you, Jesus library, I beg you, do a little kid would give all they will always love this year. You don't do that every sunday after service, she would come to the door. You stand if your grief, and Sometimes she would say that that nice methods the morning and at other times one she would like say, but that's a nice robe you have on it. So I knew ok, really good at other times. She would come out and say: oh you reached this morning

And it took me a while to kind of figure out what did she? She was sending messages. Each one was a different, and I said what was different when she said. Oh, you preach this morning real realized there. nothing to do with my irritation. It had nothing to do with my oratorical skill. It had nothing to do without funny. I was out animated. I had nothing to do with any of that it had to do was soul, tat, sold its spirit and spirit, it heart tat. Art did I'm paying in her life get touched by They either that I said or evoked in and did she in a moment. Have an experience of trends in reality that was bigger than the hard work that she has. do all week long still having a word that what when that happens, you know I don't have much time When that happens.

Bigger than Michael current and learning You can't do that manufacture there, and that that was true, that was going to be ahead of the service that that was gonna, be true at the at the royal wedding that that all I just needed. The sun create space in some hearts. forgot to do gods thing, and when that happens,. It's not a nice talk, preachin, happen and inside that once I got to the point of sand, that's what I'm gonna do Ok, you did malware was yet it was interesting to see also. you drawing on my memory here, but my recollection is I was for some reason was following your gaze. While you are speaking,

and almost entirely. You were speaking to the couple, and I rarely saw you turn out to be, the denomination to the congo against their will. leave of lines with what you're saying you had something that you wanted to create and but fundamentally you were there to do this energy. This experience it's almost like, I feel like you thought, while if, if I can create this for these two people, stepping into this thing together did. everybody else who participates in that as a quota. Server is going to feel at two yes and felt like intentional call for s talk to them, Talk to them and other here best story in in that genesis by iran's there when guy guns and taught the abraham got, shows up in there and is causing with abraham and Sarah his his wife is either robin at the tent overlap.

I was going on. That was what was going on, But to me I was talking to this coupled I'm eating two of them. And there were to be in Sarah's eavesdropping at the tat somebody. Sarah was sitting right there in the church, building the red we're all watching on tv year. They had screens outside of the others, apples, though they were people outside watching that way, but they were eavesdropping, and we were eavesdropping on a conversation that was going on really between two, People and hopefully god this facilitating that and that that one and at a wedding you can do that. You emmy at that, would that's kind of you really are talking. the two of them because tradition, is that actually the ministers of a wedding are actually the couple, not the preachers, not the not the clergy, facilitating that, but actually the minute the the tomb data whoever's get marry their them.

It's taken the vow they're, the ones they are actually doing all the heavy lifting we're just facilitate just at this open about. Tat such an interesting ones. Can we imagine that you, you also you had your own ups and downs, You essentially grew up, grew up in the church on one chicago raised in buffalo. Dad was fiscal raised. Interestingly, though he hidden, I guess even didn't start out that way. Your your dad came up. His dad was baptist and his, but he I guess happened meeting your mom had an experience in episcopal church that shifted. The way, He wanted to move our yeah. Both my parents grew up baptist caught him in the traditional bloodbath is tradition, certainly of the well. What late When he's thirty seven and forty, that would mean the world in which they they grew up. My mother had become an episcopalian college, some you for but daddy was still baptists when he got to. We went to it at wilberforce university and stayed and went to the seminary and he

he's gonna become about preacher. that was his intended, that point and so studying in the seminary or to graduate from undergrad, and my mother was teaching at the underbred and how they met. I don't really know at that burn to anybody who knows that story of beard nasa at the weight, and yet they have an ask him, but by some point they may start according to date and in the course of their while they were dating mommy, took him too, bert with her and oh, he went. He had never been in love If he had never been in an episcopal church, I don't even know if he had heard of the episcopal church before that, so he had never been in one and he had never been in a predominantly white church and any cause, Wherever they went, I don't know the church, it was pretty at white. Maybe a few blocks, I don't know, so he never mentioned either. One of those contacts also man he had never been in a liturgical contacts were communion would be served in the way in which it was served.

Where everyone was basically drinking from the same cop and it the experience of that. communion in that setting where he saw my mother drink from the cup. During communion. And then he saw a white people drink from the same cup afterward there, and when he would tell the story, you know when you kid you get tired of hearing, but but when he would, store. He would say at that moment: that's when you realise any church that, where blacks and whites drink from the same cup knows, Think about the gospel. I want to be a part of. And so this is like nineteen late forties, making forties mid forties just after war too, I mean you know, amount was king was seminary himself at this point. Will the parks was not had was still sitting back and the

Jackie Robinson, hasn't happened. Yet I mean brown vs board of education haven't happened yet you know what mean so. This is a long time before montgomery bus boycott the march on washington or selma march, or any is long before. All of that, this is still segregated america and we even I mean Harry s, Truman had not yet desegregated the military death. The context in which we're talking and he saw blacks and whites drinking when the same cup LISA. Whatever religious tradition is you ve got to do it? I want to be the bat you know something about god. and so that's it that's. What kind of led him into the episcopal church and so you know and him and realistically he had learned that, even though that was the case in terms of the ritual, and it was the whole episcopal church had not been converted if it wasn't shangri la. I was the kingdom of god in his warmest

But at least it had the vision of what it was supposed to be an and so he dared to live that and became an official priest and You know anything. I love you. I had a conversation at some point because daddy was a much more reserved a me in the pulpit baby was certainly very reserved. He, whatever emotion there was in him when he got to was cemetery. They dig it out of him and he said that they actually taught you that back and though this back and that every woman examining this was entered, he said that actually taught you that the play of emotion was a sign of lack of intellect. and so therefore, when one preaches one gives a learning dissipation of action, but not a display of emotion. It should be an intellectual exercise that that I don't know does what many ways both being intellectual exercise well You know I mean there,

I mean, obviously a sermon. I would have some intelligence to it, but it ought to be felt now that doesn't mean anybody has to feel the way. I feel a little weight to be healthier, but it ought to be he Hopefully you believe what you say and where these are trying to build which is even end up there. changed by the time I went to senator that it that it really does what they teach broken and cemeteries, dramatically, but it point we were talking I don't remember I'm sure I was ordained by that time. he sat down. You pray. like your grandfather. Baptist tradition the anyway. You preach like your butt, father he said, but, just remember don't put on a show. be who you really are it was like. Can one rose in the car congress ain't gonna things, but I get it I really do get it at unit is theirs. I have met while I was nervous ahead of time. The royal waiting once I was preaching, I wasn't

because I was doing what I do. If I may, It's like a minute do you think about it? People who we give them awards, we give them there is an amazing tony's They made a lot of money because acting is hard work, be who you actually are. it's not hard work it actually. Now takes is a discipline in his learning and growth yeah. I get out. But it's not heavy lifting it actually lightning letting go of a load of having, pretend prove yourself. Is presenting your best self. But your best self and. I just think this incredible liberation in that and I'm still trying to grow into it more morbid, there really is good at some point yet. Well, you know what like me this

like me, love me that love me, but with a francs and obviously, if I gotta be me, I gotta be me, you know in and me is ok yeah I mean two great place to get here and I wonder if so many of us struggle to, stand in that certainly deeper essence of who we are publicly and share that person, because if we are warning someone else or some other yelling facade of what we think people want or will receive openly, and that gets region did well, we can put on a different coat the next day you know You were a differ facade. You know it's not it's nothin, happily yourself? It's not the essence of us that they have said no to with this thing that we projected, whereas we like, and we just show up without a code and we just say I am like this is me. And then somebody says what will put you you're, not my flavour, that and we Don'T- I feel like we don't so many of us- enter adulthood without the skill yes and the un.

Standing dispute. without is it. I am not everybody's flavour, That's ok, milk and and so we keep wearing these nearly these. These different things to china buffer ourselves from that, rather than just letting go away spending the time to move through the world that person and that eventually those who genuinely connect with that person that essence will you be in community with it may take time, but we're. I think, we're scared, we'll. Never at that. That moment will never happen. So we never actually let it happen. Yeah. That's yeah, I think there is a free, I know the emmy for all of us. I mean annual still at my age, it's seven still there are moments when I feel like. Oh I've got to be. You know, I've gotta, be this roller back where you know you have roles that you have to play, but listen to the language roles that you have to play right now rules that you necessarily are an end and that it does take work. They have done

I remember when I first became a bishop, had better a parish pastor for I am a year twenty, five, just now like the bishop and I had a spiritual director, converse spiritual guide, somebody who can you talk check with every month and spend time with top, You saw an arm. tired bishop. And I remember joking with him, but I wasn't really joking as they do. You know I'm feeling very. Awkward, all of a sudden. I've got a role, more of a role denham meets its. It is like a cat. don't be awkward in it and Expressing all that I said you know. I mean you know that you do a bit of ring and you know and that these big ring on the right, and it is holding my hand down I'm used today, I was using joking language about it actually wrestling with cell. And roll,

and where are the two really related and a member here he said, go as they want to ban. It he said He says he said just travel lightly with that, You try some things on in some of it and someone I said, but at some point in time it won't be a matter of your being forced to fit in the close of the role. If you will point in time you and flows will meet at a sweet spot. Which is where you actually inhabit the role and and you find that your free and you know he any was saint. What he was saying was yeah you're gonna get the dry some stuff had to play with that and and he was actually right. I mean he he had to get got kind of play with it. Well know that they didn't feel that

Feel quite right as that's that's. Ok, I once when doing it was anybody know over time. You begin to. you and the robe actually meet at a sweet spot. and then. You are the bishop or the bishop EU, whatever the right languages And when that happens, you're inhabiting the role, I made a habit you in offering genuine ways and peoples, see that. Everybody knows somebody who's full of it we all do me At the. somebody who's real, we may be skeptical. Ok is this real rate really real? darwin, dealing with velveteen rabbit gonna is really really real, real real you know, sir for real. When you see it. As you know, is fake, when you do over time

Sometimes it takes a while. But when you see it there is there. It's a beautiful bang. Yeah completely agree. I think here I think you feel it more than now cognitive later there's something that you that moves through you and you're in the presence of someone who is being Italy themselves- and I wonder if we doubted sometimes because it experience is much more than the exception than the rule these days, but it is an interesting reflection to certainly find the sweet spot between like tapping into something that you in a certain way inherited a certain container, but also really giving you of the freedom to play with it too. and with a little bit to see where, whereas the sweet spot between where I can authentically show up and with this in a with this preexisting thing is for you. It was a particular role in faith for other people. It may be a job title position, that their stepping into it's all the same, the same

learning how to bring that part of yourselves still too, that experience The hi. This is genies torres from yoke. Yet the nettle from Local business to a global corporation partnering with bank of america, gives your operation access to exclusive digital tools, award winning insights and business solution. So powerful you'll make every move matter visit bank, america, dot com, slash banking for business, to learn more. What would you like or to do bank of america n, a copyright, twenty twenty three

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things have been curious about. Is that the relationship between activism, social justice, spirituality, faith traditions? I know in your life that understanding of the interconnectedness of those things. It's down really early and never never really left. You was a part of europe, bringing it's been a part of you and your obtained and seventy eight, and if you almost immediately. That was always a through line, it was always a bigger lens on what is happening in the community, not yet in the context of what is happening in the church, and The teachings relationship, but also on how do these things we, together with ideas of justice and activism, and I know you feel strongly that social justice really needs a spiritual base to almost structurally survive It really does and that the work of. Labouring to create a just humane.

compassionate, loving. With society and our world munich. our with communities, homes, its work, And it is very often work contrary to the way things actually are it is social chain, and change that seeks To move from one He is with it with Whatever is wrong something closer to what might look like. The ideal of of life and liberty in and for all. You can't get from point A to z, Ease up and down the road

and so it is, is frederick douglass. You know said in all those who want change without struggle our life, cool on crime, without having to plough up the ground. You got the plow up the ground and it is a struggle and it is a it is. It is a long term trouble. where things are not accomplished overnight. Not with key nineteen sixty three, the margin, washington. You know his. region and now John louis speech, you know, in light of his recent death and more of an awareness of europe couple role that he has played in the history of this country. But there had been marches on Washington bed had been going on for years I mean our union murchison watch, anime very much better, Marcia Washington, everybody march, and why should you in to the debt to the foot, the linking memorial and in it going back a fillip randolph, the brotherhood asleep and our borders that

predated that martin washington, like my granddaddy love was up, was unaware, railroad and I was a brotherhood, asleep carport, a man I mean he was a april at random man. I mean And they were going to march is back in the forties and the margin for for decent wages very often, but that it was in the forties. They were doing that and binding Can I came to a head and sixty three when there was enough media that can make it almost instantaneously. Did you get actually see it it didn't happen overnight. happen over a long period of time. There there were struggling and lazy, p and others were advocating for abolition of lynching laws in this country? And you know we still have a finished. It. that we're getting close. I mean if that legislation unconquered right now. It is true, it is a true, humane and compassionate society does not happen overnight. Progress does not happen. Is that the kings that inevitably it happens

as people that dogged and determined to stay for the long haul to work passionately. work lovingly. because you know we're lovingly, it's gonna grind. You up it's gonna grind you up and spit you out to sea and for the long haul in the treaty. I don't have the strength on my own disdain for the long haul. You don't have a strength on your own to stay For the long haul I will get bitter. I will get frustrated. I will give up. The truth is we need power greater than our own? help to sustain us through the long distance run to the marathon, better social justice and social change. We are not ease on down that road. It It's a long passage- and now you are- you have viable passage, but there is a great one. Isn't. As asia data weighed upon the lower jaw renew their strength, asia mount up on wings like eagles. They should

Run and not be weary and listen to this, they shall walk and not faint. You would think they. Rate from right now they sure it's the walking is like nelson mandela's long walk to freedom. It is long selma march. It is a long walk. The freedom of hard work. And we need energy it's more than just our energy We need the energy of community human community. We need the energy of the great spirit of the god. Who is the author of love and will help us make that love happen and realized. Jane SL, social justice and spirituality must go together. It has had to go together, separated becomes like a. A grip on a vine said from the room

live for a while, but it will wither up and decay. next, the divine to the deep ranch route It has a source of energy that will, it can survive, and I said Yeah, I'd just think, spirituelle amount at its best accident bet that that kings are scientists at home. For example, He nominated him for the nobel peace prize. He saw something in somebody like technology. Somebody who had there was a spirituality detonate him to tap into the deeper routes. Deep resources of life Energy may talk about god. You know aid is easily become a guide. None are we talking about the source of life itself. instead, the source, It is energy is to be found. That's the spark, that's the energy, get a tap into that source.

if you're gonna work. If you're, gonna swim against the current way things are to try to help things to become. We got a written, we had in mind when guy first said: let there be anything beside me. That's what genesis dazzled battles, as god said, let there be something beside me. That's the beginning, tap into that energy. and then let there be light. You'll be a world that there be a newer which is why the work of social justice can never simply be secular work, must combine the sacred in the secular. It must bring the best of both together, You also shared something while you're just speaking at some point, the phrase entailing a loving heart has to come from the place, which reminded me

conversation that you had recently with Ruby sales were you're talking about this and thing was her husband. She said to you. The struggle for justice is the struggle towards redemption and not retribution. You have to imagine the good people figure ways to call them to their higher cells, which I almost wonder if coming from somebody else that notion may just be dismissed as being naive coming from ruby sales, who has lived it s her entire life and been at the forefront of this movement you We have to sit back and think about it and say what a kiss really underneath his yeah, I mean I I mean I'll speak for myself. I don't speak read by you, but I gotta feel it applies to A pretty good guy But if you hit me I'm either gonna fight or flight away, like one of those two desktop, there's gonna be the intrinsic reaction.

It's just sort of a mattress. That's given you'd, be dead? The mob regarding his reaction would be fireflies I believe that human rights, to teach me that there is a third way now simply fly, but not simply fight. in the old way to teach me that is another way that maybe what I need to do it well we're gonna, be dick our moral jujitsu that I need to take the negative. The power of your negative energy and true form it into a positive energy and then Create a situation as best I can, I can do that on my own, I mean I can train myself in nonviolent techniques. I'm just like you, you get trained in a fire drill as a kid in school, so that you automatically do something with it. There's a fire at the fire alarm goes up, you know, think about use automate. You can train yourself and not about that, but at some point

a part of me. This gonna wanna bite or flee into, and a third way, if you will I need my own willpower, but I need willpower greater than my own. Engage in the work of of justice and really trying to work for a just society means you must confront injustice and taken. injustice,. In ways that are genuinely loving actually seeks to them at the heart of those who perpetuating the injustice, as well as removing change the injustice itself that it extra work that Michael currie doesn't just do by nature. That takes a little extra fight by nature in our flee by nature, but I want seek to transform by nature and these idle maybe it's been listening. I don't not by nature.

And that's why I say I think, there's all if we're going to find a third way beyond the either or we ve got to have the author of the third way, help us and if Way of love, if god is the author of love, as I believe got, is if god Author of true justice, as I believe, got it. Then I want to tap into the original source of love the original source of justice, the original source of compassion, the original source of goodness. I want same energy. Become part of my energy, that happens, then comes possible. For me to be more than simply, What my lower nature would do had somehow my higher nature when they go low. We go high and tat. It's possible. but tat is not merely a humanistic endeavour that is partnership with the divine in the union and an asset

that's the reason that most many of the agents of of real social change Have been religious folk, you know, it is the same imposed that creates a charge cathedral. Create a young girl named lala who stands up for Girls and women in afghanistan It is the same sublime beauty of them evil cathedral. that that you see in the life of a fanny lou hammer. Mississippi freedom party- it is this, he's getting at is the is getting back that that beauty, the source of that beauty, that we see translated into the mediaeval the gothic cathedral that source, that is the author of the source of the same beauty in a human life. Well lived, in the life of a job, the west.

I used to see him on the plains. Thought live in rolling over land, but some often Fourthly, in atlanta work actually in atlanta airport, a lot. as the idea of jokes- says, I'm wherever you go in the south, it beyond doubt airline you gonna do a ladder. You may be gone, I haven't you may be gone l, but if you want, oh, they relied you gonna do atlanta, first and and so I live a man always going through less well very in the flight there, when the flight Be safe here on friday from these c from national to atlanta on delta you'll see members of congress. All the tankers are going home this up water hidden in there going through atlanta, depending on whether going outside down. There was all the time on on one of those light and heat what get on and always speak in voice then coach, distant, normal Emmi it wasn't it active humility. It was, you ve been himself.

and you now to talk with you, you talk to me. Lane is gonna normal. That kind of spirit Hence, spirit could be wiped out by the world. But a transcendence sores has the power to counter what the world would try to take out of it. Gentle, humble powerful. human being, who is my great soul and those are the folk Those are the folk who change things. And some of them are big ones like in order. That was never know that. But some are more people who name. We'd, never know like the tomb of the unknown soldier. This third way, let's talk about it was the focus of where we started, procession, your sermon at the royal wedding

become a growing focus of every time I've I've seen you share. Certain ideas. The above is the way that its everything circles back to this idea of love. We started talking about it in the context. How do you actually access in the context of social justice? You have you? Have you approached the world. from this place of love, I think on when times are good when you have great relationships with people, whose opinions you agree and who are not causing you or society around you're those you love harm. I think a lot of us will not long table or yeah like that makes sense. I know one have great loving relationships and I can express in receive it. My life is the better listen and the community? My world is better for that they will get pretty. Solid agreement with all of that you know, and then with the world around us now and

a lot of people struggle with the notion of ok, so but what about when someone is causing you harm. Yet what about when we look at what's actually happening now with violence around rage when people are really dying in the streets? How do we, Roach others. Hu, we perceive as or may well be in a very real and measurable way, causing us or those we care about our community harm violence, how we approach- The situation How do we rise up from a place of activism from this place of love and still feel what a how do we actually access at nor cells, because it's really hard sometimes, and then how do we buy into the fact that if we come at the problem from the place, that will lead us. That is the best way to get to the outcome. We we motion well Ultimately, love is an action, but

it's the fruit of a deeper route. It begins with an inner, eviction. And enter. Disposition and measure with the right word, but it's something that begins with and it has to get nurtured without. When I was a kid I used always here for Look at you, washington,. think booker t Washington said it, but you know these are like george Washington, you know. Of course he said that you know bass. Speaker was Bertie Washington who, who said: never let any man drag you so low as to drag you to hate him and that Constant refrain, there are growing up folk who said it were often saying it. May members a family, the context of civil right struggles, that's where they would come and it was gathering you'd, say two kids, you know.

There was an inner disposition that, and I knew that that was the right way, that love is the right way to go The change we wanted, Because it would enable us to reflect that change as well as to effect the change itself but how do you actually internalize that. Organise it and mobilise it. and that becomes that that becomes the translation of love from an internal disposition to an actual commitment there actually leads tests, actions that reflect that love. and so you gotta go through those three things that the internal bang, the commitment then actions that reflect that internal committee. So how do you do that. One I think again do in community. We get on each other's nerves, but we

Necessary to each other and we don't really are, and because there are moments when you are strong and on weaken vice versa me we need each other to do that. You gotta, be part of a community of folk who share that kind of commitment to do they ve, you gotta have a relationship to god. It me to god. He really the source of love, and he got a nurture that in three gotta figure out what are the tec practical Annabelle ways that I actually make love live. not only in my life, my interpersonal life, but The broader life of my community and end or maybe work what are the practical who were folk were lee or organizations or groups who are actually doing love doing the loving they who are they And they keep all that in focus. You move forward with with that I saw that growing up now to some extent,

growing up in the old black communities and no day back in the days when it would have been in the sixties, in those times you community that was relatively well that was segregated, and so you actually had a community that was self and that was self contained and was already existence. So to speak. We don't I'll have that today, its look different today that tells me that the community's import and so I remember hearing about what we say. We gotta take care the community There was a sense in which we needed each other to survive in a society that work. Always friendly to our community and to us. Now a minority peoples have known that mean that met they knew that just the nature and that's the nature of the reality. So you do need those community, but that those communities in those days also knew that if we were going to do we will

but both internalize, organise and immobilized is love. We were talking about that. We The concrete actions that were going, actually do it? those days, it was clear. We need desegregate america as much as possible and usually you ve schools and all that can stop the immediate tar but everything out, but everything needed we desegregated answer that was one approach. One set of actions and I remember when this is in buffalo new, when the schools, when it was a big desegregation ever been I wasn't a fourth grade going into fifth grade. That was, I wasn't the great renown kennedy was assassinated. Sixty three does it at sixty two sixty three, there was some big desegregation effort in the public. Schools and so we were sent to night from school with predominantly black, not exclusively, but predominantly black cross main street from east buffalo into west Babylon, with,

incidentally, italian at that time, and so we that's where we went and- and so I went from fourth grade in one context- the fifth grade in a completely our main street, if you will for we did that before that happens,. They brought us together sunday school with church I don't remember all that they told us but they reminded us. You are representative of your community, you are, representative of your people, you, have an obligation act in such a way that you, help us all move forward. you treat everybody what respect you treated by the way you want to be treated and you need to show what we can do as a community, That's your contribution. They get even more specifically say together, internalize, organise and mobilise that that means you, stay trouble he needed, which, though, don't you

Vice Immediate got really specific, isn't like more specific than the ten commandments. This is for kids. You know this was how, we actually mobilise. They become a highly immobilize love. This was mobilise love and our contact for kids emulated, use that language, but that's what they were actually doing, and so we went to fifth grade our job was to study, to, learn and the principal's office, because you were in trouble about someone to do your homework to do. Was our job what love looked like in the pit great for a kid desegregate my point, is there is community This is in Sunday school that within a context of a god context. If you will and it love in action. I want to suggest that that model. Is a model for us today.

that now, whether its black lives matter, whether is other protests for social justice or other works. Now we must do the same kind of thing for communities were committed to change that is, grounded in love, six, the good in the well being of everybody, not just my good and well being, but yours as well good and well being of those who perpetuate a system of oppression and injustice because they are is enslaved as those who they seek to enslave. the slave masked on the plantation in america was, as in slave belated know. It. as the sleigh who had shackles on them. True there If anybody gets free, everybody's got the possibility again. and so we ve got? figure out ways to burn communities, being relationship with god to internalize to organ.

as in the mobile eyes, love in practical, concrete ways, for example, lack live matter. If all the protest to stay protest and do translate into button, and not translate into re imagining policing and criminal justice and in part Concrete way, if he doesn't mobilise, then it is for naught. but if it is internalize the spirit of love, must be internalized. and then organised and then mobilise into action. Then something positive and constructive happens as long as the internal wised love can t used to be the thread, Through the organization and the mobilization, At thread of love gets lost, then The cry for justice can become a cry for revenge. And that's not the change. We need that's just

that the king said it well. miss cannot cast out darkness. Only light can do that in here An outcast out hate Only love can do that Must be the internal eyes red then if the action for change. and then the change we had the potential, to be healing change its power? to see that show up at school What society. This is Jenny's torres from giocare to the nettle. If you own or operate a business, whether it's a local operation or a global corporation partnering with bank of america could be your smartest move by team.

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the first african american headed the episcopal church, you almost immediately upon being elected, looked within your own, the denomination and the organization of the church, and It feels like you, stepped in and said: where are we not doing this? You know where are we not leading from this place and as coming into a church, whereas you described here this? Is it a denomination which is for generations and generations been largely white, but also its? It's been a denomination, as many faith based denominations are they? They have won inclusion and exclusion one of those being, and this is something you took a stand on very early marriage equality. and saying we want to be a place where we are truly leading with a loving heart than we need to love. All not judge and exclude, and so

was interesting to see. You take this idea or ideal and was it and mobilise it and then put wheat and action behind it within the organisation and the community of the church. At the same time, it wasn't universally received well by everyone. Within you know, but but you had you had an interesting take. You know yourself. This is my belief system. This is how I believe we need to move forward, that important too, to acknowledge people with different. Gender sexual orientations races and invite and make this a place where we love. All of that. We offer that two of them that is, come from. Some people said That is not how I understand our tradition to have gotten us to this place. You couldn't really interesting quote of about this conversation. None had with somebody near times, to too long. We share what I believe about human. A quiet and dignity is

Grounded in what I believe about the love of god, and that love is not courses so after at my brothers and sisters who differ on this question enough to not be coerced if you are just to it's a really interesting and delicate place to be when you believe in your heart that this thing really matters? that you would love to see. As we talked about earlier transformation of those who also are part of the leadership to it, this same belief, set into to open the arms as widely as you would love to see them opened at the same time, something inside of you that says I need to also at the same time, love who they are, and this position that there are currently standing in and keep doing the work to. Hopefully see them evolve, but not in this it was interesting language. Coercive quote: coercive were yeah yeah. I it's it's a delicate it. It is a delicate

forgot, because it especially when I was a bishop of north carolina for with twelve years, the episcopal church had been working along time around The concerns of human sexuality and what would full inclusion of dvd q folk in the life of the church fully. What does it look like and what does that mean? you're gonna said the other way, A minute said that had you gotta live into it, you ve got if it. What does that mean? I mean what they look like and now I can't remember the exact year, but the ordination of of fifteen robinson as beer, New Hampshire kind of chris eliza they mean again. There is a lot that had gone before that, but kind of crystallized it and it was a moment when the church kind of had to decide It was at this moment of deciding who were we going to be

I dont member reject what year was, I want to say to you And three rebecca was: it was two thousand three and be Robinson was elected was a gay man, I'm a pardon gay man. This is prior to marriage. You marriage had gun at abbot, yet is a partner gay man, a priest of long standing, Annie elected and eventually ordain a bishop of new Hampshire and that. Really causa firestorm in the church. Both it in the? U s and, and, looking communion around round world and I was bishop north carolina at the time and you know wonderful dies. Dyson play a state that I love. That was a difficult time. I'm here, as it was in other places because it meant a change in thousands of years of understanding of human sexuality. I mean a really did,

and challenge on assumptions and things that we were all if not taught we're just assumed and so it was even though there had been education, and you know all sorts of work that had been going on in the evening episcopal church for years. This was cultural. This is a mindset that was a fundamentally being challenged and out. Eventually I mean I'm made it clear here when I was a north carolina that I believe This was the right thing to do because I really do believe in others. That old mediaeval hand will be characterized where were true. Love is found, got himself. Is there that my experience had been that I had seen real love and friends of mine, who were of the same gender at times time. I know gay people who have been- marital relationships for years decades,. and I'm seeing real love there.

and if I'm seeing real love there can it be that were true. Love is found, god himself. Is there and you know I went back and looked at scriptures and wrestled in did all of that kind of came to the conclusion that you know the dominant law in scripture is love Is the dominant law, I'm sorry, you know you mail agree with mere desert, but I believe that that is the dominant. It is the dominant theme. the teachings of Jesus you see, the hebrew scripture. You see, I mean Jesus gotta meet you prescription, you see it in christian scriptures and if you look deeply in relief, traditions. You will see that this way of unselfish sacrificial love that the good in the well being of others, as well as the south under gurnards religion. At its best is there, and May the new testament says that god is love. I mean actually makes that bold declaration me, god about their guard,

is love, which means the source of any kind of genuine love that you see. Your experience is actually got. If that is true,. Then the love tat, I feel and believe that god has for me. is the same love that god has for you. And were true love is found, got himself is there. and on the one hand it it, it was Step, but not a leap for me at that point in my life to say that About my understanding of folk were algae, bbq folk. If god loves them,. Like him say it, just as I am without one believe, god loves them the same way, god loves me then Church has to change I didn't anticipate. Was the realisation that the same love

that I believe god has for energy- Dick you folk. God has for the folk who opposed changing the church. Love is an equal opportunity employer that this way of love. must somehow embraces all. Made the change. But make the change in ways they include us all and that man it would be easy and one hurt. You know me easy to be self. Why jason stand up for the good guys in order that that's easy. What's more difficult,. Is to stand for what you believe is right. And at the same time, make space. For those who disagree with you,. In genuine love, respect and charity.

And the whole those two intention a whole both of those together there Is the hard work of love. That seeks to change hurts and arms. And yet seeks to change. In ways that lead to healing for all that is the only way of change That really changes. Any other way is just one side, winning in another side losing. Think they tried? They were working on that in south africa. when, instead of. Having the nuremberg like trials,. Perpetuated of apartheid.

They realised that they needed to do something that would help, set the stage for them. Long term healing of south africa. And they moved to a more another model, not not of victor And vanquished, but one of truth and reconciliation. Where the truth must be told. and they must be judgment- must be accountable. and yet the eventual goal- must also be reconciliation. to renew and restore relationships between people. That's the hard work, hard discipline Of love, doktor king talk about in terms of non violence. It is the non violent way that He said it was the end of the Montgomery buzz boycott

like you, could you six or so he was asked. About the boy got in and he said you know, To be sure, we wanted to desegregate public transportation, and that was the immediate. Now, That was what we were mobilizing for many said the girl was, these irrigation. The goal was on integration. Said the goal the girl was Reconciliation, the Always redemption, nay said no. The goal the creation of the beloved community That is the ultimate goal. You can't Get the beloved community. By unloving means. you gotta love the whole way, and I said

Later, when I was presiding bishop and said to other archbishops from around the world who disagreed with with our actions and when we actually did make it possible for merit open to all. I said I truly believe. But the same love Makes room in space for energy q, folk. makes space for you and me, even when we disagree that Power of love in Intimately, it will set us all free. feels like a good place for her first Full circle as well, So even having this conversation is this container than good life project. If After the phrase to delimited life, what comes up. to live a good life.

You still have a life. Where love defines who you are. It makes you more than you ever dreamed. You could be. That's a good life. Thank you.

Thank you donna hay before you leave. If you loved this episode safe, that you'll also love the conversation we had with reverend Jackie lewis about love in challenging times, you'll find a link to rev lewis's episode in the show notes, and of course, if you haven't already done so, please go ahead and follow the good life project in your favorite listening app, and if you found this conversation interesting or inspiring or valuable, can chances are you did since you're still listening here? Would you do me a personal favor, a seven second favorite and share it, maybe on social or by text or by email, even just with one person just copy the link from the app you're using and tell those you know those you love those you want to help navigate this thing called life a little better, so we can all do it better together with more ease and more july. Tell them to listen, then, even invite them to talk about what you've both discovered, because when podcasts become conversations and conversations become action, that's how we all come alive together until next time, I'm Jonathan fields signing off for good life project.