Many circles. Angela Duckworth name has become synonymous with the word grit that elusive state or trade or, as you will hear her describe it tendency that fuels the sustained action taking in the face of relentless adversity over an extended period of time that lee to extraordinary achievement and outcomes her book grit, the power of passion and perseverance was a long running number one year ties best seller and expanding her fascination with human flourishing beyond the topic of grit and also deepening into her love of children. Duckworth founded and is the ceo of character lab a nonprofit that uses psychological science is to help children thrive. She's. Also that christopher h brown distinguish professor of psychology at the university of pennsylvania factor.

co. Director of the pen, wharton behavior change, forget initiative, and fact he could director of wharton people analytics a twenty thirteen make arthur. Fellow Angela has advice: as the white house, the world bank nba nfl teams and fortune five hundred see egos and her ted talk is among the most viewed of all times, and she is now the co host of deep had caused no stupid questions with stephen governor of economics, fuelling. All of this is a relentless curiosity about people why they do what they do and how to help them. Do it better, bundled with a deep desire to make a real difference in people's lives. We explore all this intimidated. Conversation so excited to share with you on Jonathan fields, and this is good life project

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Do you? Because you are in the context of all of this, there is so much incredible work that you have done so much work that you're doing and arm and eventually want to get to the broadcast that you ve been rocking out this year as well. You ve built this. Stunning career as a researcher and an educator a lot of it focused around grit and expanding out into a broader character traits It sounds like the sort of education has been a part of your ethos from the earliest days. It was sort of like something that was drummed into you and part of the culture of your family as well yeah. I think education you know it's an efficient water, you're you're, not even consciously aware of how important education is because, like everyone, you know things, education is important and then you and then you realize, like oh you know, there is there's something like unusual about this emphasis. When you, you know, leave your family in you. You know you go experience. Other other influences, but I is it my my devotion to education.

Now is maybe less from my family. Saying like it's important, you know, education is, is the issue waiter do anything in life. I think I think I really like kids so when I was in high school- I too very little bed and do the rise in college. I really like I spent, I think, be spent more time with care it's in the neighborhood is a tutor as big sister as organizing forgot than night than I did in the classroom. So I think I just you know kids agree and smarter than in their nicer than us in their more energetic yeah I mean have you ever thought yourself like what is about the quality of being a child that so draws you to them? You know the area our kinetic right, if you're around kids, like it's just its palpable like they, just maybe there might hungary or better but they're, just kind of bouncing off the walls with energy, and I don't just mean three year olds right and the like fifteen year olds, like

senior year there, just the color of cheese they've got like like a life force, and I find that to be like, really revitalizing right, Frida, meaning life right like it. If you feel energized and and I do think there is like a purity like they're. Just I mean I really do think they're like smarter nicer than then we are in so many ways right like that. There is a real kind of authentic. the especially young, kids, of course right who it's like this does not a lot of layering of strategy, it's cetera. So so I dunno, I I've really enjoyed them from from that perspective. Also, when I was a freshman in college, you know like most eighteen year olds are figuring out what to do, during one of experimenting- and I remember I volunteered both as the tutor and also as a laker

who would go visit people in the locals, nursing home and was publicly funded nursing home and I got assigned to patients and I would go every week and six. It was because they were people who didn't have a living family or these little family, good visitor, and I remember having these like two experiences like tutoring like nine year old and visiting eighty five year olds and in the same neighborhood, and these are both like terrible things but I guess the other reason I'm drawing to education. You know, in addition to maybe my family culture in addition to like liking, kids, because their awesome is that If you really want to make the world a better place, there just seems to be a kind of logic of like war. This kid needs no more than what they're getting maybe- since they are at the beginning of their lives like this is good time, to try to invest so just in some sense, I hadn't intuition, that enough

to be very like like if you want to make the world a better place like how could you not like help start with kids? No, I love that. I mean I mean it's, it's curious. I love the idea of bouncing between relate the nine year old and then you're dramatically fast forward that near the person who is close to ninety and this yet there are probably some really fascinating similarities between those two age groups in our level of openness and curiosity, a level of I feel like it late there's. It there's this window where we or to centre our lives and our thoughts and expression. that's almost eight when you catch people before that in it, it's a different issues, into the human condition and then, when you, when you step into lies in their late eighties, they're, probably We were one make assumptions, but I'm getting a lot of people will be at the point where you kind of like you know. I got nothin to just, is what it is. And here with you, you know

nor had observed our destiny? I mean you know. I see that the two women that I was visiting were not especially to explore. Heads us was tried to convince the lives of these. I didn't do very good. Bitch leader in my life, I think it was in my thirty's, or maybe my maybe it was my thirty's us talking to my friend Adam grant, is also psychologist. Monsieur you know Adam many, I daresay most people I interact with like no him or know of him, so I called him and I said, we're both tenure as professors and we're very blessed trying to make a rank ordered list of like the problems in the world that I should work on. You know in order of importance like if you done that, like what do you think he said no. I thought about that the end of the day, I realise that is very difficult to rapporteur, like climate change. Compare, to funding reform in education or elections, were it's it's very difficult to make that list.

Sure that's the right list, any behind these whose are all like saw above threshold, maybe should make the list based on like what you get energy from him, what you're good at and, I think, there are some social problems which you could argue are more urgent than others. But there are so many that really buff threshold. I thought that was great advice and I dont think that but I work on is necessarily more important than what other people work on, but they get above threshold to sail hey baby psychological sites can do something to helping our kids thrive and for me as it as a as an individual, for whatever reason, even more in food I find, Human nature, to be endlessly fascinating, it's it's funny, because I I have noticed how I do a lot of research whenever, if I sit down before every conversation- and I have

quick note. I wrote down relentless curiosity in the way that shows up when you're being interviewed as you take over the interview. Very often, I know it's like asking questions. Why did you do right and I and I'm like I'll, be listening to all of a sudden, I'm like wait a minute she's asking all the questions if you're so so yeah. I usually like apologize to the interviewer afterwards It's alright said to like it just had to know. I wanted to know what you were thinking yeah, but I think his ethics as you beautiful right, because it shows that somehow you have found a way to channel so much of your energy into something that people are curious about, but also even when the context, supposed to beat them asking of you. You are so curious just about the current interaction that your own about the human being your conversation with that, it's almost like you can't help yourself, Have this child like curiosity, about going on in the mind and a life experience of the person that you are momentarily in conversation with

I do feel like one of the great joys in life is to have to feel like the way you were when you were a kid and you're curious about somebody you just like to know, and it was in a way like a need or a yearning which sounds negative but but like it's, it's great right, like you're, just quote, unquote dying to know right. I often feel like that I've never met somebody that didn't interest to me. and when I think about what I read about like, like you said Oh, you know some interest in food. True right, do read a lot about food, but I'm not reading actually like the books about like me. like astronomy. Unlike what really happens when you breeze something unnaturally reading like memoirs about food, you know, like I'm, reading, kay fisher and I'm I'm like reading, those stories of like the people. You know why do people do that, like a white like so so the human dimension of anything that is happening is, is invariably what interests me one

husband? I bought a house recently with moved sidewalks. philadelphia and the real ter would just you know, find it hysterical that when he would me to a new home. Instead, I I like to think about the moulding or the electrical some. I was always asking these questions like owen and why did they want to move out of this, but then so they ve three. Children's. How old are they like what you know? Why do you think that they cited to go into that profession and the real just like, I don't know, but I don't know that it's relevant to buying a house, but it is exactly where my mind goes. Yeah I mean it's almost like this childlike state of wonder where it's just about a fierce curiosity about everything, and everyone do you think everyone's like that, though, like just to you know, do my thing the question I put to you relate the like. Other people do Do you know in your experience and like? Do you think there people who are less You aren't, as in some ways I feel like, is in every

you're doing this. All the time I actually don't think so, and here's. Why is that? So we have actually been doing sort of. My research for a couple of years had developed a set of archetypes had an assessment that looks at the primary fibers of work of effort, cross spectrum, people and so on it is our entire, with without spectator categorized as the maiden, which is basically a either broad based. deep dive fascination a love of learning your problem line. Up with that, and I like the vs strengths and we ve got about tat, million people who been through the assessment, this monsieur some serious data and maidens or people who are driven by curiosity or fascination or absolutely the most prevalent of the archetypes them willing to invest effort in pursuing that curiosity, fascination? They should it's anywhere between twenty five and thirty percent of the population or the people who taking the assessment there are also other people and their drivers that

seem to be much less interested in learning and much more interested in doing particular things It's almost like have to stop that to learn something or go deep into a curiosity or fascination, is more than annoyance. It takes them away from this other thing, and I might and my lands is that we are in for a hammer the world? Is it now and that those who are that are the main events cannot conceive of any one else approaching the world similar to them, just like any other orient no wiring or any policy. I take it for granted. You're, like isn't everybody right, this kind of hammer like aren't, aren't things, I see this kind of now. you know my dad is to say their thinkers doors and charmers, and he wanted to make extinction. First of all, between thinking and doing which you just empty eyes, and then he said you know the people who really get he's done or thinkers anders

really get things done, or thinkers doors and charmers anyway, that my dad's taxonomy of the universe, and I do think that I am times like a very curious person. I'm also vary doing or did I took the myers eggs- personality indicator like mbt. I guess Myers briggs type indicator a whole other conversation, because most reason Psychologists don't put a lot of How can it, but I do remember, taking it in getting like zero for thinking and the maximum score for feeling and the the test you're coming over in saying like, I think I think you sauce with this wrong, and then it was returning I know you got a zero for the actual mackenzie consulted at the time which the worrisome to my colleagues but yeah, I think, there's a part of me to survive. curious, especially that unita nitrates, but everything actually don't know that

I don't know than anybody's curious about everything, except for young children. I'm not trees about politics like I'm, not curious about, like lots of Wouldn't issues deeply curious about human nature and I am a door like there is a the like if I'm on vacation by like day three just like dying to do something that feels like a progression to me. What I mean mike usa, gas is is, and what is the aim underneath the doing you now do to achieve what are doing at which currently loops has, to a certain extent, to add one of this. The topics that you have studied for awhile have time now, which is this thing in capital g grit were really talk about when, when you zoom the ones out- and you look at people who have achieved stunning things across a number of different domains and very often in the face of great adversity over an extended period of time and you Bryce this crushing like what is it? What is it? What is the thing that

sting wishes them from other people and and you identified hissing, which you would you call great candied, deconstruct that for me a little bit yeah define grit as the combination of law the term passion and long term, perseverance with the emphasis on long term by the way? So I'm just going to say what I think about these things. I think, by the way, these are words- and you know nobody- owens any of the words in the english or any other language, so I am not saying that other people he uses words are wrong or you know they are, and I'm not that this is the best way but did to clarify, When I say long term I mean in adulthood really over years. decades to to really have a abiding sense of doing something? That's really important to you that you does that you are not border, as you know, after like a year or two or three or four or five or six and then proceed

iran's. As you know, the more obvious part of the I think like working incredibly hard, even one, is wrong and then being resilient when things are wrong, so it how about time on task like high quality, high quantity engagement. he is probably the final common path to any. in achievement and grit is this ten see by the way. Thank you, change your grants, it's not to say a fixed tendency, but attendants he to stick with things and to keep. pursuing them. You know not not a different thing every every few years and edges, work really hard at it? So so, when I What's the last stance which I feel it goes the last person to watch the last dance and he just finished that that's the reason I'm just you know like everybody else, I was glued to the screen. How could you not But when you look at liquor, the jordan Orleans yvonne? You know like it's it's credible? How much

high quality consistent high quantity energy are, they devoted aircraft you know not over year, not overdo is really over decades and- and I think that is why these people are so great to have a discussion about talent to, but I think that's that Grit is in and that's why I study. Met yet the global private aviation leader is known for personalizing every detail of your travels because not yet standard is not just to meet their definition of perfection. It's to exceed yours discover more at net jets, dot com.

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yeah, I mean fascinate, the use of our tendency, which I'm curious about and as I've learned about grid over the years looked at your work looked at at some of the other commentary around it and just looked at the the broader field of positives, They social science. I have been curious how great he gets describe. The in my mind I keep looking between. Is this state? Is it a trait use the word tendency and they must pay the curiosity for me is that if you view a trade which I've heard it spoken about First time is in. Underlying. That is the assumption that it's not changeable, if you use it as a state or tendency will then may, It opens the door to this being a train of all things, something which is liable overtime. Some I'm curious were where fallen there. So if I could try to communicate something that is true and very nuanced, then I will do a victory dance after this kind. because I think it's very hard to understand, but I'm gonna try and and its

it's the idea that any trade is a distribution of states, so it's not the grit is a trade war estate. It's that, when I say a tendency, I, in that the figure really ready person it. What it means is that. Very often if you like, dropped into the middle of their life and some like children there doing very often they would be in the state of like passionate pursuit of thing that their working very hard. If you take a very low grit person, more often than you drop into their life in lebanon, right now like. Are they doing something with passion and perseverance? They ve been working on for years like that? That would happen less often But any human being has it, jewish, and so, if you say like. Oh Michael Jordan, was really ready. You know he's a

extremely you'd be like you could drop in on almost any moment in his life right, and you could make a good bet that he was like thinking about basketball and working to improve and you know exhibiting eyes would be, however, though, that, like you, know you drop in and and there's a day an hour a moment where he's doing like something totally random and it. But I think the idea that treats your strengths are tendencies and people have died. provisions by the way. This is hard to explain to a general audience without knowing a little bit about statistics whose what I and by distribution is like, if you could, Imagine in your minds, I like a little graph rate like you. see, the distribution means like. Where are you on average? Where are you sometimes? Where are you? You know rarely like any The idea is that I think grit is a treat since that people differ on their distributions, but

buddy differs within themselves right, so so people have the capacity even if there are really high grip person to usually be low grit, and I think that is Why does too, you know since I'm already in this like quagmire. Of complexity, which is, I think, actually what human nature really is. A very complex human nature cannot be communicated in a ted talk. I think I think that is why you'd, like your contacts matter so much rate, so you can be the greedy person and your coaches just toxic or europe company. Is toxic and you're really a passionate doing person, but you ve, opportunities to do like learn. to develop like that. That will also influence. You know whether you are in a state of great so so that is no, the fuller picture of grit, which I have struggled to communicate because it's hard right, like I think it's hard to understand things that treats and states are an opposite or like it's either traders, but that

all humankind. Actually, I will say this end serious personality psychologists, we'll just like, of course, all tendencies, all the strength and the visa. You know what would mean to be, accorded equal, grateful person or, like you know, curious he's a signature strike. What it really means is that if somebody sampled your life, that your provision would be all kind of like bunched up you know towards the high curiosity end of the spectrum and that the to look for us too, to be rare, but not exist, not non existent yeah. I'm in this fascinating to me. You know, if you think of it as a sampling of of many moments over a long window of time and then looking at here, the the distribution, then it also makes me curious about. Well, he's doing the sampling and how are they actually view in the context of what allows somebody to expressly sings verses. What doesn't If you look at one person in life, who has simply by

the nature of their circumstances. A lot of opportunity to do this thing to express it in an unencumbered way, with a lot of resources versus somebody else who comes out the very different place, and maybe remains in those circumstances, for four decades or for life and would lie to express his identical things, but because as of constraints and circumstances just doesn't have the opportunity of tourism how you take that into account when you're sampling those moments and figuring out how these two people are different in their expression, so let's make it distant in between what theoretically is probably true and like how you would ever actually do it think it's really important to do that, because when I say that, like oh people, are these distributions- and imagine this like thought, experiment that you could like parachute into their life and then see what doing and then you could like. That's not actually what happens right because of its very hard to do so in theory, though, I just will stay by and I could like literally ask any trained people. psychologists

but in and by the way the psychologist, whose really pioneers you're, who like put in two. It knows Wolfensohn any causing the density distribution model for now the anyway all very hard to communicate, but but it's not controversial it's like every. I think, every serious psychologists, be like oh yeah, of course. So it's come acts. But it's not like new or its May not my new idea. ok! So then you're like one who would do the sampling that, like I think that you know these are all good. She's getting more relevant is like the part of what you were saying about. When you observe somebody doing something are not doing something. You know you could they, like all their highness character. Strict alone is characterised right. There's a tradition of state in part, because your circumstances matter enormously rate iceman this. terrible summer my parents owned this tiny little like needlepoint canvas company, that You know my mom would get it

like canvas is shipped in from taiwan, and they all had the made in taiwan sticker on them, which was some you know, require mate for customs and then my job for the whole summer was to take the stickers these little gold, overall stickers it said made it. I won't take them off right, which I hope was legal, but it That's what I was asked to do, and you know, I'm a pretty hard working person. I feel like I'm, actually pretty energetic prison. It was like torture I mean the first hour of the day. I was going, crazy, already and so exhausted and end, and I think that's ample like how your situation is going to change like your behaviour, not because you're like a low curiosity person or your low energy per cent or your irritable, percinet you're. Now at that the spectrum in your distribution you're on the lower end of curiosity for you, because you are in a situation that doesn't give you be afforded to like be at your best and I think the recent conversations and country about equity.

and about racism, and I anne and more are are enough in a very important way, like shining a light on like how uneven and how spirit. People's opportunities really are, I think, that's enough. Dealing with positive psychology and and the kinds of things that I worked, because you don't want to make what the psychologist that I No, we call the fundamental attribution error, which is observer behaviour, tribute it entirely to the persons tendencies and not taken into account. contact situation, the opportunity obstacles that are outside of the individual yeah I mean that makes a lot of sense to me. And I do feel it. The conversation is happening in this country now touches into that in a lot of different ways. Beyond the the this general attribution air

the curious about house or the notion of survivor bias effects when you're, you're looking at who is ready and if you take somebody who achieves this incredible thing. You know, through perseverance and passion and credible resilient over a long period of time through adversity, and they reach is neo capital as successful as we often we were being hunted call them like a greedy person, but you take somebody the exact same thing: And then They either fail or become destroyed along the way and in height I, you know, we popular culture will then look at that person and not call them ready or successful, but rather Eric and or delusional so I wonder how this idea observe survivor, bias, please the conversation, if at all, yet the eye survivor by us or its sometimes called sampling on independent variable that do its bit

good idea like if you look at all that the winner circling you're, like hey these people, have all these. You know things in common for europe, looking at everyone and it could that those same characteristics that are true of the people, who are you know it at the top of their careers? Could be it the same of people who are at the bottom or the middle or whatever else you. You have a fallacy there. If you do that so in my research I I both interview, people who are you know like olympicum medalist, but most my public research. Actually, all my polish search is based on law the two nor sam rules where you're, not just looking at the people who finished right so at west point. Four well, if you only interview the people who generation, ok, they're, really gritty, then you could be going on independent variable. You could be commit this error. But if you start out with all the cadets and they all take the great scale- and you know

of it's like symbol, but yours you're still, starting with everyone, men of the people who You know your studying. You can look at variation on their outcomes, said that the solution to this error and you know. That is why I think it's important studies that are not just like heads interviewed this I olympic athletes ghastly it's my company just like draw these inferences as so. So that's this sort of methodological solution, makes sense me you're, teaching it leagues. all of that connects at west point. I think Israel, interesting, also, certainly, when you're taking a group, people who are stuck together and they're all tasked with essentially working towards the same outcome in there's a pre defined then point and a predefined metric for success and parliament broader curiosity, I grant also is it shows up and how it applies when you are out in the world doing things where there

no predefined end point where more than agile process where you need to serve defined success along the way and even decide whether you can succeed or have and if his worth the costs of in real time as you're doing it yelling does grid apply when learning along the way is a part of them. for six ass, I think you're right just to. First of all, a contrast, you know really structured environment, ino sports Like that to write, like a mean, what if you are the very long past, to becoming will you hope, an olympic old medalist right like It's very hard, but it's it's structured. In a way that most I don't have that most of us are like more like fill in the blank than multiple choice in terms of the choices are making and that's harder and in some ways I feel like it so I would somebody pursue something for years- is that the goal must be at a level of abstraction

that- it's not like some new accomplish like in a day or weak, or you, like you, You know when you ask people, and, and not everyone has an Was it top level goal that they could say like ours is my mission statement for my life and I think, maybe one out of ten people that I've talked to like has it. very conscious way. Even people who really greedy could sometimes it can be like non conscious or like You know an outsider might say like. I would think your balls this, but they might not be haven't having it in their head. Like that, I think whether its conscious and available to you or or less so it is having something which you are these were working toward an end. I think that idea, that its higher level go in a hierarchy of goals. Explain to me why there has to be a lot of flexibility and experimentation manner?

it's cliche almost when you, when you really get what people's top level goals are because they're so abstract. You know, like you know, be my best. You know like make the world a better place, like you know, bring out the best in others. I have a student danny himself, It is a former and a hell. Quarterback is now getting as phd. you did. The masters imposes psychology programme which how I met him and his top level. All professionally is show what's possible right. Ok, that is, credibly, inspiring and poetic put it so abstract right. It's particulars right, where there's so much experimentation, unlike is that going to be, through being a coach? Is that going to be through, like becoming a research psychologist, how can I do that? So so I think when you are living, or life like most of us, are living you're you're, really I think, struggling to kind of like figure out like which path ice, you'll think having

articulation, however, of that northstar top level. Abstract goal is held for re, even if, like the path toward that is something you're constantly experimenting with, and it's been for to me, you know, I think, my top level like logical science to help kids thrive, isn't even as abstract as as it you know is for us people, but but just knowing that, like you know I go on this podcast like is it you know what would I do on Friday afternoon to me? It helps me decide, and it helps me realize, like no thought that that not that podcast like, but maybe this one or like notion should do that on Friday afternoon. I should do this on Friday afternoon, because because, ultimately, it's more aligned with what I care about most deeply I guess it helps orient around the and that last here he said at the israeli what it comes down to what I care about most deeply. You know, even if you'd, if

if you don't have some predefined sense of this is exactly where I'm headed. This is exactly what you know it. It look I got this is exactly what I'm looking to create or learner discover achieve. to have a strong sense of this is the thing that fuels me that wake me up in the morning and am I making progress towards that It is why I am, I think, use the word agile there in the world of entrepreneurship and start ups for a long time, lean was a sort of like a hot wording another, was fascinating because- Would the essentially refrain the idea of a start up as you like, a stored up is effectively. A group of people in search of a business model, who you know, and the goal was not to quote succeed here, like the guy was to learn here like it was. It was to reiterate, as rapidly as you can to prototype, to get feedback and medical was just to learn and lower and lower and learn. And as long as you're learning then

you could say, I'm succeeding, even if, at the end of the day, the learning taught you this was terrible idea, and we absolutely shouldn't do it. I think because, when you orient around that, then I feel like were it becomes almost more accessible, no matter what the ecommerce or matter whether you burn through. the seed money that was given you and realize it was a terrible idea to store where there is a great paper at of stamford been school. I just love it. It's about success being metaphorically a journey and not a destination, and of course, you know that's a metaphor. That's been around for a while, but they actually did these regional design experiments. We show people photographs of road and I, like a liquor house, or something in the distance- the inner on one condition. Your encouraged Think of success as the road right as the journey is path and then another condition like successes there. It's like getting there, it's like that house in the distance. That's your goal they found was you know that

relatively simple brief. doctrine and and and metaphorical framing, actually encouraged people in actual real life. Golden did things like exercise exercises to to stick with things longer and to put more energy into it, and in general I think it's a healthier thing, actually just ugly, divine yesterday as she's great, and I think she has many characterise ranking, including obviously grit, and she you know too, about how as early. She can remember really like shoot one up herself right and any really. That is the idea that, like you're, never there right, if she would say that too, like even when she retired gino, name. The number of things that she wanted to do that she hadn't done. So I think it is like a good way to think. Like you know what my learning right, like that, I learned something to by the way I have tried to use this during the pandemic, because this

just the most stressful year of my life of most people's lives that I know- and I am especially left, so I'm I'm can only imagine what other people are going through, but I am trying to wake up in the morning. In addition to doing my three good things exercise and thinking of three blessings in my life, I am trying to think of at least one thing. I learned when all these imports elections right like oh, this happened, and that was not what I wanted and like then I tried to do that and that did not work out the way it went like that made this mistaken. You I mean that poor judgment. I think. If I keep back to a question of like What did I learn? Then? It frames it. You know us, as you said like in the railway, does it does it matter that you burn through your started, like yeah but but what what you really want to think about is like what did? I learn I mean in that context of day to day life in content. Start ups wherever it may be. I feel like they're just. taking that frame. You live a better life.

because, no matter what happens now as law as you pause because kind like reflect on it. It's kind of like you can you can't kill, is right. Second, the moment it may be a brutal experience and may be hard, but you know you frame it as as you like do. I now know something that will inform how I move forward and in it in a different way. This uncertainty right now. Isn't it great that you could basically gap can t that you win Few say like that. I learned something today and yeah you're right and by the way truly broadcast performer learn from their successes to write so is very hard to learn from failure. Actually, new research from Psychology shows its especially hard to learn from failure, so we should praise the winds, yvonne's and Michael jordans from one from failure, but also they learn from success. And that's

that's hard to right, because soap so often just like- oh I do know that worked out like it so anyway, having a learning mindset at all times is, I think you know a wonderful thing. In so many ways yet And I think it also speaks to a certain extent to um thoroughly coach or a mentor or a guide, or somebody who steps in rio. We em had Anders ericsson studio of a while back ethical, People know his original research, which has been missed Turkey and Iraq, The ten dollars now rule which is not a tent, does narrow, but the idea of this yelich deliberate practices gruelling practices. It was fascinating to me as early as car. focus seems a lot more to be on the role of that person who steps in and when you're in this, process of growth and learning and struggling importance of having somebody else alongside you who can zoom the lens out a little bit and

look at what's happening, have the wisdom and the experience to understand how to help You move through a moment you perceive as and move through a bulk for lack of better way of putting it. And yes, I got less yvonne, are proof professional athletes to people the top of their game. to do this. I wonder how often you his lens was. This is a mission. Critical piece is almost impossible to push this place. Law determined term and this process, if you don't find or have that person or multiple people, I wonder if, if you you have seen or or think the same thing yeah Andrews passed away this summer? And it's in appropriate time? I think to you no honour this life. Mainlanders really was the whole expert on road exe and when you talk about you know, enter a guide. You note I he wasn't high. The way like lindsey VON scheme

but he was actually a mentor for me, and so I was able to belatedly. I guess you I wrote gratitude letter, which I read at his memorial service. I was able to say in that letter. You know, I am quite sure I would not be where I am today- thou, which is exactly as you as you say. You know what what others sir surmised, after studying experts for his whole life that people rarely If ever truly go it alone, there are lots of reasons why that is one that you mentioned, is the motivational one right I mean I dont know many people who are the way I to like, you know, realise like how to put things in perspective and to give them so If the pep talk, you know like the day, they really need it I think for most of us. We can think like. Oh yeah, that's what my husband does or my wife does, or my peer does or my my men, my coach, my boss,

The other reason, though wonders with one or two to talk about. Is that when you think about the practice that world class experts its goal directed his very strategic. It's not like! Oh gee. I wonder what I should do this like two hours like its highly choreographed as well thought out. thing in anders his experience extremely rare that the person, it is the performer do all that mapping out, like you need to feel jackson to say, like who can work on. Is that you? a trainer who says like our aid today, we really have to work on that and I think that's really a profound point. I would call anders occasionally. Might I met him when I was stone graduates gothic goes like toward the you know, if graduate school. For me- and I would call him for advice in especially when those feeling lost, which was somewhat frequent- and- and he really did like he- he gave me it. I couldn't just like write my journal and come up with the advice that he would give me

you tell me the like look for a salient role model and to you know to try like pop they did. You ask me to like define what success looked like into like think about the obstacles anyway, he'd? He, he said a lot of things that I think able to me too, I too, to become better what I did, and I think that is you know that it's true, it's exactly what he was working on. You know when he passed away. I just found it so compelling, and especially the less might you were making. Where is she yeah part of it is about the motivation, but that the role of having somebody who lack of a better word it is, is in possession of a different set of mental models and experiences and and the ability to reflect to you what you don't see and offer. A frame that is just not within Europe. sperience it added and when he shared that I should say yeah. I never really thought about it that way, but that me is, I think, a much much harder,

It may be more important than the short like what the l a puppy, website of things you know, I'm the term I am I my colleague Ethan cross, might uses and psychological. Distance right, an end. It's so true I mean my husband, I've gotten into Appendix routine of almost knights, and- and We really try like to take a little walk right like a walk, after dinner, with her son just to like process. Our days which have usually been filled, with small to medium sized dressers, and just you know fruit for him to be able to tell me, like a things at went wrong, I mean I have. Distance right. So it's it's. It's really helpful to have another human being. Who cares about you, but they didn't go to the same bad day right so they have a little perspective, but he was a really truly, as you know, I think, like kind and Funny and fun person, and I I feel leg I feel like. Not. Everyone also would know that right there, like over ten thousand our role which, as you as

Point out is usually misinterpreted, and then you know his mouth the mental work, as my own adviser Marty, seligman, would say Not many scientists can say they really discovered something important but on, I could say that, and for all those reasons like he should be memorialize is, is a patrol appeared in every major newspaper? That's all correct, and right and everyone by his book. Peek at everybody should read it like. You could literally become better what you do in a more efficient way. If you understand otters work, but he was such a good person His wife said at his service, that, in her very long marriage, could not remember a single occasion when he unkind to anyone. So anyway, I think it's a it's a wonderful thing to be mentioning him in this conversation, no

of that and aunt em. I didn't know that you're so close him and he had played such a meaningful role and reassure eagerly tenure at my writing letters like rhodesia worry, you were. You know a big reason why anyone would wanna know believe in my work. Yeah. That's amazing when at last start getting so complicated, buying a home, complicated home finance is certainly not a walk in the park. Raising kids, it's a lot, then there's insurance. What if my policy doesn't cover this or what? If I have to make a claim in the middle of the night, good news state farm is there for your? What is you can reach them? Twenty four seven file a claim on the state: far mobile, laugh or simply call your agent to ask anything. So even if life gets tricky, insurance doesn't have to be like a good neighbour states form. Is there call or go to state, formed our com for a quote today.

Hey, it's jonathan from good life project. If you are in your thirties or forties with friends too busy to join you on a vacation, you have to check out flashback the only group travel brand for solo travelers, your age, imagined dining with su mo's in japan, or basking on a private yacht in croatia. All with people like you, visit flash pack, dot com, slash podcast, you save two hundred and fifty dollars on your booking and offer only available until july. Fifteenth. and it's itching also cause it kind of like as resume that lens out from the grid and yeah like your. You have not just been solely focus on this one thing called grid. It has been a piece of your work, but also partly character, lad. You know it's it looking at the other elements of the human experience of what makes us the way that we are of your beyond it she meant, and how do we treat others knew it serve? A d

the exploration of the life of the mind and what goes on in there and all the different things that contribute to the way we bring ourselves to the world and in it, and to a certain extent,. The way the world returns certain things to us. Do you like the way character? I do I bet there's probably where reason for now it sounds. I think it's hokey and I think it's it hurricanes to a time to me. It's kind of an old tie. Me word yeah that speaks to you a moment where quality of humans, heart of their intellect of their service. That contribution was at the centre of life. And I and I sometimes wonder whether that is not so much the case. These days and an idle like the word, because I think I.

and I'm more in the last debate, because I don't necessarily believe it's gone, but I yearn for more of its return to its beautifully said. Yeah I've been thinking about the word lately. Well, not just lately, but also lately. I think Aristotle used the word character in translation Martin Luther king said intelligence and character, and these are the true cause of education. Re montessori, John dewey, like their many great thinkers who have improved. this term. One of my favorite thinkers is jackie, pesos, who, among Things is the mother of Jeff basin says character is how you show up in the world, and I I think these are the reasons I do like the word character, but I think sometimes people think like It sounds like it he's a tory at it. You know it sounds like you're blaming the victim like, oh, therefore, character like that's. Why they're not do so Like any word, I guess it has its price. and cons, but I did creed

is nonprofit cod character, lab with two educators deed. Levin and Dominic rand, often they really like the word character. They had been very tracked it the work of Marty seligman. Who is my adviser, graduate schools? I said anyway, I do I think that some emphasis on you know how you feel. up in the world and also like, as you say, like how the work returns that and- emphasised that, like how the world treats you is part of where you are character. Issue I mean so again isn't this conversation is taken us to complexity into nuance. I I think, that's important it's not like your characters to something you're born with. I mean you know, The kind people come from, I think kind people come from people be kind to you and you where'd, you unkind, people come from lake, probably people being unkind to that was her. So I think it's it's a new its thing, but I ate I'm yeah, I'm proud to have a nonprofit called character

and I like it. I, like the association with the word I can see how may be loaded for some people, but also for me and that's the way thy frame that I have for it is past. They have in a surly instant, meaning and and law. Then contribution and purpose, and things like that. It's fishing that yeah yeah reflection, though I was recently having in conversation with a friend about d. Experience of shame and said. Well, you know, there's a shame that society, that's that's right away from the outside in your when you're, not living up to bob law. And then there, just like the inner shame yeah like the anaemic, is born with shame. You know, there is no inner shame until it comes from the outside. It lets very interesting, yeah and the things remain like some inner. Shame that, like it's just you know, springs at a year. Arteries and beans are something like. It was my curiosity in early guy, I feel like. Sometimes we live with a certain framework experience for so long

that. We almost can't imagine it not emanating from within interesting. It just feels like it's like coming at airports, or something it's a moral emotion that emerges during the pre school years, a shame, guilt and, and where there could be arguments about why you know you wouldn't want someone to not be capable of this moral motion like but There are so many reasons to like think that could be very toxic motion. I spend a lot of time My twenties feeling like even would say out loud, and I said we re in my journal, like I'm a bad person like for whatever reason like you, challenge tortuous, some expectation or hidden ridiculous. I like getting eat healthy that day with a bad person, and I think shame like can be so deeply tearing and I'm glad that lake. I grew up. Little bit announced if fifty and like I, I don't that kind of like

self incrimination that I that I had one of the younger women not nearly as much anyway. I think aid well not everybody, but I feel like some time age helps. I mean I do there are plenty of times where the fifty four and and where I have met. Top arrived on the wrong thing or said the wrong. They cause harm. I've. I've gotten this habit of justice when I'm starting to feel that thing inside of me, asking like at the time that I made this choice or did the saying or said this thing, I feel it was right action and do I still and if the answer is no- and sometimes it's not that only a candy, since this was messed up, But if the answer is yes, then it just at allows it to settle differently. So the question you ask is why again like it, What was it right? Wasn't right action it's sort of like a bit of a buddhist frame yet, but it

works for me for some reason and and annette also sometimes helped me understand when I need to right a wrong yeah. No, I think Das questions. Obviously too many ways. I was thinking if I had a new year's resolution, if you can have a nears resolution like September wealth, school year anyway. I'm about to start teaching two classes and us you know what I need work on the seer and anders ericsson would very much endorse. This cause should have a specific goal for improvement, not just kind of try to prove everything. I am going to really try to ask more questions like more and take open, ended questions that don't have a year, yes or no right or wrong. Answer and so I love that you asks questions as a matter of being and I ended try to do that more like in everything, Brian greaser, whose a person I really Meyer, very curious, pursued and also of you know, come film, producer, etc. It had a conversation them recently. He has this idea of a curiosity conversation and that's how

met, but then of course became friends and he was saying how like in his leadership as as every hollywood producer also has to be a leader like he's learned of telling people. You know, to do and what not to do is to questions, but you know that are much more. generative and don't make people but anyway, I just think it's great, unlike like yeah questions, questions are great. you're a superpower like. I am not asking enough like real questions, I love every made. It s a really nice segouin to your podcast. Oh yeah I you think that's we. We have a pocket, we meaning stephen donor and I have a pot. Gas coordinates stupid question. yeah I mean with everything else is going on. Your life is not unduly literally, other has weekly like he was like I was like, so when is it sees it over, I was I was, as you know like as it ten episodes at it was like.

I'm not sure I know you mean like while I mean you know and then like we take a break them You know that in the next year it is like. Oh Do you not read any of the emails like? This is a relief I guess it was like god it check. so. It's been more frequent, but I'd really like thought. That's my my fault and he likes even talk about like nice. People like Stephen has a biased like I. I now know him pretty well like he really likes good nice people and so and he's a good nice person. So we get along. The I that an end is certainly the perfect to have two goodnight. People who are sitting there. How hosting conversations originally called that near the pike has called no stupid questions, really basically inviting everybody say come on just like like what he got you now, let's go there, but some I bet you swore I am, I think top address? Like super cool you you

when into something which I think for a lot of people super relevant now, which is why it is so hard to be alone with your thoughts was one of them, and I would imagine a lot of people are going through that question these days, yeah I'm in the pandemic, is a time when some people. I mean I think about my mother in law. My mom like they are like really alone right, I mean they're they're sequestered in with very few exceptions there, You know they have a hundred and sixty eight hours in their weak, just like we all do but like mama, all those efforts are alone I was talking to stephen donor about this question. I think he is hard for me to remember which questions he s me and which I ask him. picture of this package. Is that it's one of each so there? You quit conversations that students, you send us emails or like this when I miss about college like this is the kind of units like fun. Conversation that I used to have powers in attendance and that question I think he asked me, but I kept

sure it immediately made me think of research, item wilson and cut eggs, unhealthy bore so a averse to being alone. Their thought city, even for many of them, rather shocked themselves electrically a great pain ratan. do nothing that then sit there with their thoughts. It also reminded me, by the way of the marshmallow task, which is this famous tacit preschool. We are waiting in a room, it's empty, there's, nothing in the room to do or look at, and they are delaying gratification. Hoping till I get marshmallows instead of one if they can wait until the experimenter comes back, and I remember watching the video of this region, we'll task and then also replicating this experiment myself with slightly children and it struck me that you know maybe even harder than waiting and resisting a marshmallow is not doing anything and I do think that's part of the reason why the task works is that it's very, very difficult to sit alone,

Some people would like nothing more than to be alone with their thoughts, and I think it's something we can all learn witches. You know Mindfulness I mean if, if mindfulness becomes part- parcel of what people learn to do when they grow up in practice when they are at any age like I think that will be a. I think I can only imagine how wonderful the world is. Gonna be, but my when this, I think, is not judge metal awareness of the present and I'm guessing that if you had like what you gave us in a room, you know by himself for not only minutes, but ours like you'd, be very good. If you like call here, I am Yeah, it's it's a really hard experience for so many people, and I have better. Ten year issue, adaptation such my father's practice, So I've got a lot more comfortable with it, but on the sometimes really enjoy it, but it's been

ah process. Is it hard? Are you is it it's not really? Is it out you? How do you describe the experience of you know when you're practicing mindfulness now either but to me it s her split into two things. One is a sitting practice and one is just an ethos so at, but I think this sitting practice builds thick osity further eat those that you just character at your day, so I can much more readily just snapping the conversation a moment and interaction in our tiny green book. Crawling up my hand, much more easily I've had doesn't really right. Jo Leinen answer that I don't care. The daily practice is fun or necessarily any easier than it was ten years ago, when I started but I notice the flow through to its moment I my waking orientation that we're out not for a moment I ll be like how am I more.

as an or unless reactive, like, I just I know five years ago, I would have experienced this in a much more way and would have led to a where's outcome for everybody said No, it's almost it it's that which is actually much more meaningful thing to do. That makes sense. I'm learning I dont the daily mindfulness practice. Unless you can't yoga- which I think I think reduce the kitten count as moving mission, but I think you really love to have heard you that, because when he communicates to me what it really means when he's like, it's not necessarily its, it really is just being able to you know throughout your day, justin like being that state, which is, I guess why. Why do you do that? Deliver I mean it's not that from exercise right. It's like one of the vital throughout the day. That is why it helps to do now you know calisthenics or something here right,

My ultimate goal is not to be able to sit for long or longer amounts of time. I could care less about. What I care about is how it how it changes the quality of my life just moving through each day, which feels like a good place for us to kind of come full circle as well so city, at air in this container of the good life project. If I offer up the phrase to live a good life, what comes up to me to live a good life is to do three things why is to exercise strengths of heart, which is just about you and other people. So you could say: oh I'm gonna, do that through gratitude or my mom do through gender. stealing your kindness. You could do it through. However, you want, but it's a way of interacting with other people in a positive way, then there's exercising strength of mind like you, asking questions and been curious, or maybe being a deep learner, or you might say, like mine

The mind is intellectual humility. I think there are many ways you can enter, that bit strikes a mine and then there's, but I study strength of will. Grit and control optimism growth mindset and I think while the kind of like getting things done. So so, when my dad said you know, life has tourism charmers. You know the roughly correspond to these. allegory is not exactly that order, but I do think if you imagine a person's life who there in some way like working on trying to interact with other people in a given, the way in some way there trying to like exercise life, the mine we could there. If you wanted, and in some way to try to get things done for higher purpose and and being effective like, hard to imagine that you go to wrong color that, thank you,

well. Thank you so much for listening, and thanks also to our fantastic sponsors who helped make this show possible. You can check them out in the links we have included in today's show notes and while you're at it, if you've ever asked yourself. What should I do with my life? We have created a really cool online assessment that will help you discover the source code for the work that you're here to do. You can find it at spark: a type dot com, that's s, p, a r K, e t y pe dot com or just click, the link in the show notes, and, of course, if you haven't already done so, be sure to click on the subscribe button in your listening app. So you never miss an episode and then share share the love. If there's something that you've heard in this episode, that you would love to turn into a conversation, share it with people and have that conversation, because when ideas become conversations that lead to action, that's when real change takes hold, see you next time.