Welcome to the Wednesday podcast of the Glenn Beck program. We first want to start by telling you today special guest Eric rolling kind of an amazing conversation with Eric on a couple of fronts, but one I welcome him to another brand new three year contract with the blaze tv he's just upped so he's just up to three years and you can find him on the blaze tv four nights a week. Soon, three nights right now, but I wish there was website to subscribe. How would I do that? It's probably problem the place. It's actually plays tv dot com, slash back Should I try that maybe we put that in there and then we use back Christmas. You could charge more, no you'll still saved dollars. Whoa, you mean if I type the extra letters going to take money off the price off. The price incredible suggests that simple go to blaze.

Tv dot com, slash back and use back Christmas, save twenty dollars. All the biggest voices in the conservative movement are coming to blaze, tv alright on today's broadcast we talked a little bit about Trump and Russia, and this new I guess it's letter of intent, but it's assigning deal with Russia. We explain and what we know about it, and then we asked Eric Bowling to come in and chime in and say what does he think about it? It's it's an interesting. It's an interesting look at something in, but people took a long time in a lot of effort to hide and keep quiet that now it apparently does matter. We also talked to Helen Andrews, who is conservative, libertarian leaning person who went through a went through the ringer with a

social media, shame campaign of several years ago, when she kind of got an argument with an ex or ex boyfriend sort of went after her on national television and what that experience has been like. It's been many many years, she's learned a lot she's really interested in his fascinating story, and we talked to her as well as Andrew Eaton, who has a much less fascinating story about a zoo. Well, it's if we have time there's two things I don't know if we get to both of them there Where is Eric Bowling story about his loss of faith at this holiday season and Andrew's story about Org? grinding monkeys, you decide on the podcast today,

it's Wednesday December nineteenth. This is the Glenn Beck program, a proposed development, the first class luxury mixed used to be known as Trump Moscow or such other name is agreed on by the parties located in Moscow City now known the project, dear Audrey, for an Andre. This is a letter of intent and it sets or the summary of the basic terms of the license agreement to be entered into by the Trump acquisition, LLC or

or more of its affiliates and the icy expert investment company or its affiliates blah blah blah. This shows exactly what they are going to be building what they are going to license out, who gets money. It is a two hundred and fifty first class luxury residential condominiums, one first class luxury hotel, all consisting of approximately fifteen floors containing no fewer than one hundred and fifty hotel rooms, one first class luxury, spa fitness center, a commercial component consistent with the overall luxury level of the property and office component, a parking component. They will also help designed construct, equipped, furnish yada yada yada. It's I mean the expense depos

the deposits, the principal the non disturbance, the confidentiality, the currency, the governing law, the operation, the term, the management fees, the development standards, the maintenance and repair of the hotel, centralized service agreement, hotel technical Service agreement, debt covenants, reimbursement of fees. I mean all of it: food and beverage signed by Donald J Trump. Now this way, this executed October 28th two thousand and fifteen, and it ran all the way through the election. In fact, Mister Trump we now know was, was brought up to speed on at least three occasions by Cohen.

Checked in Moscow. We also know that the guy who he denied even knowing is uh. Signature of this contract He was the Moscow guy and Trump said, I, when asked by the press, do you know this guy? He said I don't I don't. I don't know him I'd have to think about. But I don't even think I've ever heard. That name he who is the guy who was working on this project, and He had direct contact with Vladimir Putin's office about this project during the election. So does this matter

See what happened during Monica Lewinsky is, we would ask people, does it matter or did he do it and then they'd say no and we'd argue about that I've stopped arguing about. Did he do it? I don't show me the evidence when you show me the evidence, then I'll know if he did not, but until you show me evidence, I don't really care, I don't care, I believe anybody on any side show me the proof. So I've been waiting for the proof. However, if it exists, does it matter this? What happened during the Clinton the problem? Everybody argued that it never had and and then when it did have, we did have the blue dress than it was well. It doesn't matter well wait a minute, then why we've been arguing did you say it didn't matter right up front, so the

resident? No, we now know lied repeatedly to the american people about having a business deal and a significant business deal in Moscow that Putin's office was. I can't, I can't say, directly involved with, but add involvement in he was courting moscou. He was trying to get this done now. You're. Reading of this does it he didn't do any. This is nothing nothing illegal about this. Nothing illegal, nothing illegal about this. This is not the type of thing you get thrown out of office, for I don't think unless he lied to. For you know the FBI or something about it, I mean less he'd committed a crime in the cover up or something he definitely did say to the media, a bunch of times that he had no business dealings in Russia. I think he said that to the american people. I would

I would agree I mean, but I mean the media is probably more directly who he said it to at that time. That's how we hear heard about it. Yes, but he was asked he was asked. This is not a question of criminality or or impeachment per say like this is going to work that in and in the media is going to talk about that all day, but I don't really I don't. I don't really care, I'm not looking at anything other than you have the present in the United States, while he was running asked by the media, but also asked in debates. Do you have any dealings, and he repeatedly say said I don't know or does anyone I know have any dealings volleyball Moscow wants now in the release documents. He was wanting to go to Moscow and it was man

before that said no you're not going to Moscow. It was during because this deal they wanted to see him. They wanted to deal with him face to face, so he said all right. Well, I don't know. Should we put it together, Cohen was pushing for him to go and it was manafort that finally stepped in and said you can't go. You can't go and negotiate this deal right now. Ok, so seriously shows you a Michael Cohen is like even Paul Manafort. Add more discretion. Yeah I mean it is when you're losing to Paul man a fort on a good decision making contest. That's not that's not where you want to be so look I I understand the president

not wanting to, for instance, I I I don't agree with it, but there wasn't anything a little illegal about it, and presidents have done this before they've had sacks, they covered it up, yada yada! This is different. This is different. The the secretary one secretaries in the Office of Vladimir Putin was in solved in this deal. There are now memos back and forth when Trump denied that this was happening. The press called Putin's office and that secretary, that person who was involved secretary of something rather she denied that there was anything going on. Okay.

We now know that we we have the right, we have the emails and he has now come out and said: okay. Yes, there was this exchange as soon as the White House said. Yes, there was this exchange, though the Kremlin said. Yes, there was exes exchange, I'm so sorry, but this is not secret deals for the United States of America. This is a secret deal benefiting one person and that person happens to be the president. I don't want any secret deals going on between my president and Vladimir office, I don't want any of am. I want to know if you're going to do it. Fine, let's have that conversation, and I know that would be tough in the press, but at least we would know transparency. Donald Trump did not turn over. Any of his business records. While we can see now why this would have been found, ok Can you turn them over now, because are you

writing anything else? We have to know that the president doesn't have any other any other. The idea that he is a slave to other than the constitution of the United States of America, and I don't think that Donald Trump hates America. I don't think that he wants to destroy it. I don't think he's in league with the with Vladimir Putin. He is driven by

I his business, and I don't want to secondary business thing on the table with the President, the United States, or at least I want full disclosure and- and if we back up a little bit this is it's not as shocking as, as you know, the media is going to make it out to be today. If you go back to twenty fifteen when when this letter was going on, Donald Trump is a business guy want to do a really great deal in in Russia. It is completely legal for him to do a big deal in Russia completely completely normal and is normal business day. Right like this is a this would be a very typical dealing for him to be engaged in at the time. He is an incredible underdog and most people, surely most people in his organization. You know I don't know about him exactly I mean you know, he's very confident publicly. The reporting says he even kind of thought he wasn't going to win, but at this point

surely no one in his organization thought he's going to remember this two thousand and fifteen. This is an event with the year of the election hasn't even begun. Yet I haven't even gone to Iowa. We have gone in New Hampshire and he still well in the polls, but no one gives him a chance of winning at this point, no in fact that you pursue a deal like this would make sense and beyond that, when asked just about it. Why you're getting asked about it in the media, his key calculus likely is the media just trying to trap me on this. Yes, I have this deal, but probably not gonna happen anyway. If they keep their. If I say yes to it, there's going to going in there gonna investigated the Gonna treat chase me around and accuse me of all these things. I'm just you know the web's screw that I'm not gonna, given the the the the nugget. Now I don't think that's the

way to handle it, but you can understand in that moment how he thinks just brushing off those questions might be the appropriate thing to do so. We are down to where we were with Barack Obama, where half of the country didn't believe Barack Obama was a guy who had America's best interest at heart. You know he had a. He was a slave to another idea as well as being present in the United States. We didn't trust his motives now. Half the country doesn't trust this president's motives. We said we wanted full transparency, we wanted to know how did these guys get into office? Who are they? What do they actually believe? And we can deal with that nah we're saying well, no, we don't need to do that because we trust Donald Trump. I I don't know I we should trust Donald Trump, and it's not that you're going to get Hillary Clinton now you're going to get MIKE Pence should he be removed, and I'm not even

talking about that. I'm just saying we crossing another line. Now we're crossing a big line. There is evidence that he now lied to you repeatedly about something pretty important. Does it matter to you now that question the best of the Glenn Beck program I was reading a story about how is from five hundred and thirty eight talking about how media kind of shapes our view of things,

and I get so frustrated as conservative and could you complain about media bias in the time that it's going on and it's not until decades later? Do you get the actual admission of what actually happened in these old timey situations? I got the time they never admit, they're being biased and that you know the. Why of the year is after Obama has passed right? Listen this paragraph take the nineteen ninety two election at the time everyone thought the economy was in shambles. The recession had technically it in nineteen. Ninety one, there some evidence the economy was expanding again, but the media painted a picture of economic woe. Political scientist, Mark crew. Member, I remember being on the air saying that the recessions over and it was techno. Even I know they found a strong disconnect between the media's negative reporting on the economy and how the economy was actually behaving. In fact, with the benefit of insight, we now know that the economy was growing by more than three percent annually by late one thousand nine hundred and ninety two roughly the same place pace. It was growing in one thousand, nine hundred and ninety six, when voters rewarded built

and with the second presidential term Hetherington's reset suggest that the relentlessly bad coverage of the economy affected voters perceptions at the ballot Box, George Hw Bush substantially under performed the second President presidential bid and became the first Republican since Herbert Hoover to be denied a second term. Well, yeah, They made it sound like everyone was going to die tomorrow. It was George Bush's fault twenty year, thirty years later, almost we all can look at this and say well what they were saying at the time was completely ridiculous. We weren't in a recession. We were growing at a healthy pace and you know George Hw Bush should have been re. Elected in that campaign. You know what it was Facebook. It was not not getting involved with Facebook ball. That's right, yeah, Ladimir, Putin! At that time, it's. Amazing, you didn't need Facebook, you didn't Vladimir Putin, you had them

stream media doing it for you, I mean people like us getting worse. Now, it's not just different. It's just different that the that's the only thing listening to the best of the Glenn Beck program like listening to this podcast. If you're not a subscriber, become one now on Itunes and while you're there do us a favor and rate the show Eric Bowling for a period of time played professional sports until he was injured, then he went in became a stock. A trader in Wall Street then went to television, and we know the rest from there Eric Bowling on the blaze tv. Welcome to program? How are you Erik I'm doing great Glenn? Thank you for having me I'm honored to spend some time with you on this

interesting day is a very interesting day. Isn't it? So is a great thing: here's a glut of demand for bowling to explain some stuff coming out of the White House tonight. So so he here's the here's. The great thing about Blaze TV is: we are a collection of people that we don't interfere with each other, show or opinion, and we like each other and get along, and we can disagree, and I think we we're going to disagree on this. It doesn't matter. I really want to hear your opinion on on the the memo that came out from the Trump administration. Well, as Donald Trump himself said- and I agree with wholeheartedly that he had a business, he had a real estate business that was doing making hotel deals around around the world when he ran for president. No one gave him a chance, including the New York Times on the night of the election, had Hillary Clinton with a ninety eight percent chance of winning as the returns started coming in.

I'll. Never forget seeing that meter, the New York Times meter of likelihood of of your next president, going literally pinned it to Hillary slowly and slowly and slowly we got around one thousand o'clock at night, just flip the way over to the Trump side. Why would he stop doing any sort of business. If you didn't, if he wasn't sure he was going to be present, that's since we would have no one running for for like the office. If that were the case, we have no one with with business experience and background all running if they drop their private businesses in in the in the white week order, unlike because of them being president, not no less and then also in print pick up the pieces where they left off. That would be crazy, okay, so, and so I I agree with you a hundred percent. However, he didn't hide the business dealings with Moscow Lloyd after the election Liani denied it Giuliani denied it. I don't know that Donald Trump Average and I think he said, of course,

on going business, concern multibillion dollar international, real estate, business can't stop height. I love you Eric. I love you, he doesn't care. The key can't let you get away with that. He he denied it relentless said he had no business dealings with Russia multiple times, and he said I don't know anybody who does have any business dealings. No, I I I I don't recall it's. Where do you on my light? I don't call him saying well, but is it ok, so no business dealings with Russia because we know there are other properties that in fact he sold. A property that he only in Florida for one, I think, was it but yeah that one of the largest real estate get on the right that when he admitted to that when he admitted to he said the only business dealing right. He said the only business deal I have with Russia is I sold the property a few years ago in Florida, so he admitted that one. He was straight up about it. My question is why

why do this with the press. Has no credibility, people Trust, Donald Trump who voted for him and no, he did it and you can say the same thing you know about the you know with the with Bill Clinton. This is a personal thing was about sex etcetera, but he stood on on the plane and he looked at the reporters and he said I had nothing to do with it. I had nothing I didn't even know about it. Ok, well, we find out that he it know about it. Ok, we can dismiss it because that one a personal thing with his wife all right now, this one comes out. Why wouldn't he just stop all this and we just come out and just say: yeah and here's the contract. Well, I choose is I'm not sure the day he had consummated the deal at that point, I think there's an ongoing concern. I I saw signature on on the note on the memo as well. I honestly, when I'm being one who Listen! Honestly! I don't. I don't remember him saying I have no business whatsoever with Russia with the exception of that real estate.

Okay so okay, so I did. I know it. I don't want to get it, but if I, if I take your word for arm, I can only say that mean that you know I I have to repeat, have to circle back and check, explain, explain the signature, because you do now. However, I don't think it's a problem, there's no monuments, clause of violations whatsoever. Let's go back to the the reality. Okay. So if if in fact he said, I have no business dealings which Russia and he had a letter of intent, not a deal. You know you, and I, we go way back. We know letters of intent, don't necessarily mean the deal is done. It means we intend to do it Well, it's not a legal binding matter by anything that may be where he gets around. He may say: looked at one thousand one hundred and ten we signed

intense around the world all time for everything. I'm sorry how many letters of intent that you signed an order receive that end up not being at the old ones, so maybe that the bill Bill Court to put, but let's let's, let's take it, let's bring it through the machine and find out what it really is. It's really a businessman continuing to do business. You know in the way he was until he was elected president and then things change. She gave the business in it and the dealings cost to Eric in Don Junior and, to a certain extent, a box as well, the less so it it won't go to Erica done, Junior okay, because it seems to me it really. The underlying issue is not an issue. He's he's he's running a business, but talk about international real estate and he's in the middle of an international real estate, deal that that there's nothing there get in, and it's just it's kind of going on, because I've I've got you coming what for years in business under my belt latest. It is dawning on me as we speak right now, that a letter of intent is not a

in contract? No! No! No! No! It's true! No. I know that. I know that was dealing with them. He was attempting to get business. He kept saying you know I never had any business with Russia. You know the closest I ever came to rush. I bought a house a number of years ago in Palm Beach Florida. You know the New York Times as him on twenty three okay okay occasions, and I don't know that all of these a lot of them are. I have nothing to do with Russia which, necessarily the same thing business dealings, but he did say I had no business dealings. Russia had no business with Russia, you know he I get. I think you know in his defense right he's in the middle of getting attacked constantly by by the media, and probably he know if he says he did, have a deal brewing with Russia. Everyone accuse him of a million different things and you didn't want to deal with it understand why he tried to push it off. I just feel like he it's it. You know it's the whole Nixon. Think it's really not the

I am it's the cover up and I don't think the crime in this case is a crime at all. It's it's a normal business dealings. I just wish she would be a little more up front. That's I that's all. I would ask well it again in a I'm sorry started in Iraq, not really understanding, but as I, as I talk to you and talk it out, but Letterman Tent literally, is like a handshake. It's it's nothing more like you know, let's circle back see if we can come to terms so technically, he knows deals on the wings, the letter of intent dealings, I mean we're gonna parse, the meaning of is here again, but I I don't know, maybe we want to add, but again there are dirt. There was no deal done. There's no deal consummated into you know. The difference is like when you do a deal, you sign a contract and you do a press release.

That's true. I mean it's again. It is six letter in time now I'm laughing 'cause, it's it's literally there's, there's literally thousands of letters of intent drawn up, and you know they're worth the paper that they are written on that that's about it. Yeah! That's true! detailed letter of intent right, I mean sixteen pages of all the different. You know it's going down to like how they're going to figure out concession sports. I mean it's pretty it's relatively detailed, but I think your point. It's it's! It's true that the media, going to kind of obsess over this and they're going to say this is proof of no collusion about the election. When I mean it really has nothing to do with that at all election. There's gonna try to complete these things. This is the problem. This is the problem that is the they are conflating. Absolutely everything into this collusion with Russia in the election, and I just don't see it. I don't believe it. They would have to show me the you know the

the end of it, and I have not seen any evidence that there was collusion at a for the election. It's just it. It's so frustrating, because the president, you know you know the media. You know these liberal hack media that that you can make something up. They can take up he didn't get in call it treated well. Another reason that there's not there no season in if there weren't, if there, if mall or sitting out something it would leak by now, it would leak. We would know that there be something that they got in at two to the wall and it would deter like there's no secrets in DC. So Eric. I am I'm just to the point to where I don't really care to speculate. I don't want to. I don't want to speculate on what they have, what they don't have 'cause, I'm tired of it. I would watch CNN. It's not a news show it's! It's like a psychic hour that there ng well I'm looking in the crystal Ball, and I think this is what they've gotten I don't care. I don't care. I just want to talk about the things that we,

do know they have so if they've got something else will come with it until that time. I don't even want to talk about it because it makes no difference to anybody's life and it just confuses things and pits us against each other on what on elation coming from people. I don't trust, I'm not I'm not, but the rates went in and that's what the left does and you're watching MSNBC's ratings in primetime creep up in fact even pass Fox's ratings in primetime. It's it's! What's what's what the last in the in the anti Trump crowd wants to hear that we're getting closer to nailing the president and the date of this almost any interest anticipatory woman, your waiting to see what they got in in keep getting disappointed when I know he's been saying that every time something new brakes there like we got it's time. No, you don't! No! You don't it's it's not going anywhere so anyway. Now it's common phrase on CNN is the

walls are closing in, but I just keep saying it over and over again, I must be living in a matchbox. By now so Eric Bowling I want to switch topics to you and there's a there's, a couple of things. First of all What do you have? What do you have coming up and what do you to be looking at and doing on the blaze tv in the next in the next year. We're going to continue to do what we do about the weight when we we, we just had a big pressure this morning that I signed with police to for three years and I'm looking forward to working with you and mark and some of the other some of the other conservative hosts that we we delivering probably premier, actually, the premier conservative content, the media right now the opinion content. So I'm looking for that and writing inviting as many other service, smart conservative voices to join me at at least he going to be a great venture. Looking

or to it so that an announcement just one out thanks, I'm thrilled I'm thrilled. We are going to do. We've been doing this for our show America's just it's unbelievable we're we're we're in Congressman John this is. We are in the Senate, Rotunda talking to senators. I spent the day yesterday at the White House with Kelly Con Play, I'm at last week with the price in the oval office on bringing high level with visuals and elected officials, opinion and ideas, and then you know just policy to the forefront and then we talk about it and we're doing it three days a week right now. I think we're going to increase that to maybe four days a week and we delivered alive at five hundred pm every night. So it's going to be a great year and going to continue to do it within I'm looking forward to

with the with the wind in the in the blaze, maybe can talk talk regularly that be a lot of fun. I love that. I love that, as far as the show was concerned, that I'm also doing this op awareness push knives, I've teamed up with Sinclair broadcast on on on the tv and broadcast side and the price for the next four months. So I think, through April of nineteen, which only around the country different cities will be in Dallas would be in San Antonio will be in Ohio Nw Northwest all over the country and we're talking opioids. We had the first lady last time at Liberty University with telling Connelly Conway yesterday. So where were

when this message out to to to people it's a important message to it's a deadly killer, that we need to really really attack as a country you're doing that because of the educ loss of your son that we have for talked about, and you were, you spoke about it in a very raw and real way and moves just. I think it touched a lot of people Eric is. This is coming up on your second Christmas without your son. How are you doing? No, I'm not well not be answered it to you. A lot of things. You'll know about me and maybe your audience doesn't but will learn quickly. Is it there's there's no cost on air persona versus a, but you know it all separate sites. What you see on tv news is who I am inside I'd be lying. If I said I'm doing well or my wife and I are doing well, it's a it's a rough time of year,

we lost our son in September of seventeen. A couple weeks later was thanks in the empty chair was happening and we were about to all how far is a family and present call the you know it. It meant a lot for for me that he called in that moment, because you do was, it was the first holiday he use such what we call the many holiday since it doesn't make it easier just makes it makes you feel like something he cares and that's what the point is that that, because he showed so much empathy and compassion about this topic, and in my lost, my wife lost, really pushing to get the message out. Other family stone don't have to deal with. This is interesting. We last night we finished the show us that Sinclair on NBC here Jelly and, and we came off the hour a on opiates- and you know the pretty just came out with all that was. That was amazing. That's great! You know, let's start working on San Antonio, on January tenth

be there and and the like, this is going to be you and I just looked I my go at you know how hard this is for me to do an hour on the loss mice, my only child, my son, and they realized at that moment that this is really really hard for me to do. But I swear to you when the only thing I have to hold on to that there's any sort of positive that can come out of it is that we say one family from from this other and it really is a hell. So that's what that's what that's? What gets me up in the morning at for that? I'm not sure a a my mother,

committed suicide, and I remember when I did the tour for the Christmas sweater, which is a fictional telling of of of that, and I felt so compelled to do it. I remember I got off the stage every every night and I was just I said I can't do it another day. Just cannot do it another day, it's sometimes when you, when you hit these personal moments, where it is a a cause, yours being opioids, mind being sued it's it it is. It takes every ounce of strength you have to get through it and I commend you for doing all the debt ceiling you felt I can't do another day is what I saw last night and at the first one and and you know it's a great message- is a great broadcast partnership with some clear there's there, play blanket to the country on local stations and they are happy and

twelve more. I just looked at him like okay, twelve more you know, I mean it's going to be rough, but listen if you can get the suicide message out. I help people who who are or contemplating and maybe make a phone call to the suicide prevention Hotline or if I can get the message out to families. Parents talk to your kids no one's no one's immune, your kids, not too smart to popular to Atlantic, to white, to black, to gay, to straight too rich to poor they'll, all be touched or the kids one pill can kill, and maybe we save a life or to fun you're listening to the best of the Glenn Beck program.

It was October two thousand ten, when our next guest appeared on a panel to promote a book of essays by young conservatives, proud to be right, voices of the next concert but generation the moderator was Jonah Goldberg one other panelists was my ex boyfriend during the question and answering Todd the boy and let launched into a rant about Helen's personal failings. He accused me opposing Obamacare on the grounds that it would diminish human suffering, which allegedly I preferred to increase, of wanting to appeal laws against fist fights for the same reasons of being sadistic and scheming, a heartbreaker turn personal life and generally living according to a disturbing and brutal set of values. For three minutes,

forty five seconds which, unfortunately for me were captured on film for broad s. Two weeks later, on C span, he made impassioned case that I was a socio path. It's stuck Helen Andrews is that woman that was on c span. Welcome to the program thanks so much for having me wow Helen you've been through the ringer and back. Are you back yet? yeah yeah. It's been eight years since that happened, but you know to see week or the very day that I sat down to write this essay. My husband came home and said honey. You won't believe what happened. I was at a conference and we were talking about that break ups in the conservative movement and one guy pulled out his phone and that all my goodness, if you want to talk about that conservative break out, you have to see this.

Key span things the poor guy had no idea that he was talking to my husband after eight years it would have faded away, but now it's still still pops up. That's the thing: the internet is Yes, I want to talk to a little bit about their something in in Europe that they're they're trying to push through, and that is the right to be forgotten, which is very, very human. I mean we do forget things and then things fade, but with the internet, it's per currently there always and you'll never can escape it. So tell me what tell me what happened that day and tell me your journey here in the last. You know eight years short well as soon as the video it up on the internet, those three minutes and forty five seconds work, instantly clipped and posted on Youtube.

And they got half a million, hits in the first forty eight hours. All the cable news networks did a segment about it. It even made the local network news here in DC. It was written up on God, Washington, Post, you know guide with mental on Ex girlfriend at expand panel. So all of my coworkers saw the video of my friend saw the video it just became a huge store. How old were you when you sat down for that interview and you were 'cause. You were twenty two. When you dated this guy right Yeah- and I think I was twenty four when The video when big. So you know I yeah I twenty four years old and basically thought well, that's my life over now and you will admit that you were pretty pure, pretty brutal to him. Oh yeah well, and you know that's where I eventually arrived.

You know I I thought about. You know touch talking for four minutes about what a bad person I am well, you know, honestly, he could have gone for four hours about what a bad person I was to him and not set any. Hang on true you know. So who am I to say that I didn't deserve being embarrassed? You know So after you had you know, half a million hits in forty eight hours. How did your life begin to change? Um? I think I didn't realize at first just how permanent, apart of my life, this thing was going to be my thought. It would just be a week of bad news coverage and that would be embarrassing, but then I would move on its turn it off little. Things like I would be walking down the street on one occasion with my parents and people would stop and point that Hey C span girl about a year after the incident

I decided I wanted to move on from my job at National review and funniest thing, no matter how many resumes I send out. I couldn't get a job interview which made sense. I put myself in their shoes over perspective employer and I figured yes. I were trying to hire for a position and somebody's first, Google Rese want some rant about how she's, maybe a psycho. You know yeah. I might look at other. You know that that's easy enough for them to say, but for me it was a pretty serious blowed I'll be able to find a job an event. As you mentioned, I moved to Australia most of the other side of the world and even there because that's the thing about Google, it's completely global. It followed me to the to another hemisphere, and so when you were looking for a job there, you couldn't find a job for like eighteen months, because people first thing they do. Is Google your name that's right and then once I to find a job at a think tank, it still follow.

Be there. You know I put out my first report on nonprofit regulation right like the weight Charities are regulated in Australia are pretty benign topic, but the minute the trip it was released, Australian MP to the video and said I don't trust this person's views on charity elation How much snow on the internet, but elected official, has decided to to use against you. Me any public statement I wanna might wanna make in the future, so all purpose rebuttal. I have to ask the obvious question here from the right and that is: do you think it would have been the same? If you were a liberal and not a conservative? No, I don't think so. You know people always say. Don't read the comments, and that Definitely, my advice to anybody else. Did this ever happens to don't ever read the comments, but I couldn't help myself and the thing that I noticed

over and over again is that these people would say. Well, you know gossip is Bae bad and we shouldn't make fun of people for bad things in their personalized. It's none of our business, but in this case this chick is obviously some kind of christian right wing nut job. So therefore that makes her a hypocrite and that's why it's a for us to talk about it. That's something that a lot of people do psychologically when they join in on these internet pylons. You know they come up with reason for why? No, it's actually! Ok, in this case, it's justified when really it's just there doing it in 'cause, it's fun. Is there any difference? Do you think between I mean other than the final outcome? Is there any difference between this and the mobs that used to dunk the which is or burn the witches? Is a lot of people just joined, didn't and it just didn't have anything else to do. Oh yeah and then the way that you know it's completely irrational, you know that it has no

Is this an actual justice or truth or logic? Is that arguing back never ever helps you know if anybody who find themselves in the middle of one of these storms. Your first instinct is always going to be a while just explain my side Story and then everyone will understand, but because nobody in line pylons is interested in the truth. Anything you say is just going to be twisted out of context or made to make it sound worse it's going to be, like you know, crying when a bully attacks you in the school yard, you know nobody's listening, so rational argument isn't gonna help anything holy cow. How you survive. This is beyond me and- and that's I guess where I want to go next, how did you survive it? What did you take from it? How should you fight to these things and we're talking to Helen Andrews A can

the writer she wrote a piece in the in first things called shame: Storm Helen. You brought up something, I think is really interesting about how people won't react to rational thought in these moments. It strikes me that when these things start when the sort of online shame trains begin, we in ourselves one of excusing a lot of awful behavior to an attempt to pile on. We use a great example which was kept Kevin Williams and we love Kevin, he's been on the show before he went to the Atlantic. People remember the story and the on earth. Some comment that he had made about abortion and they come in the in the country, really wasn't about the comment. Afterwards, people started saying I'm a fearful to work with Kevin Williamson. I in twenty five

percent, he might want to kill twenty five percent of the women who work here and you point out correctly. No one actually believed Kevin. Williamson was a threat to anyone around them. They had justified in this moral sort of cruise made the idea that they could say anything about this person and lie about their own feelings, because this was so justified. Did you feel, like you were kind of at the other end of that going through this process, show were you know I would read in comments or blog post people saying things tell me that we're just not true. You were just factually easily checkable defaults and I kind of wondered how These people have never met me care. So much about ruining my life? What did I ever do to make them so angry with me, and eventually I really I said you're not angry at me. They don't care all that much about me one way or the other they've got their own. Isn't there angry at women.

They're angry at conservatives or they're, just angry in general and like lashing out or they just enjoy the rush of feeling outrage. You know you really, once you read enough of the comments or fall, and after the Shane storms you realize it's not about you, it's not about the person at the middle of it. It's just about the pattern to the dynamic of the way. These things always go. It's like a away before an avalanche. So so how do you deal with it?. You, I would imagine you've you tried. All of the you know argue let it go. Don't read. It be nice, I mean what works. You know it's, it's funny It took me along time to get to a place where I'm ok with it, but once I did I realize I was actually grateful that this. I truly believe it was part of a bigger plan that this should happen to me.

But you know I was a pretty rotten person when I was twenty four. I was selfish and and careless and very proud, and I don't know if anything short of this kind of knock upside the head could have done it for me. You know I I was raised in a very secular household. You know the only church we recognized the church of NPR but uh. It was only in college and after going into conservative journalism that I met any questions at all and Does the things that one of them said to me after this whole c span thing happened? Was you know, Helen Berries no humility without humiliation. An and GOSH was that true, you know, I was just a very proud person by instinct was always to think that I don't deserve this sad thing, that's happening to me, but by yeah I got saying that just stuck in my head, there is no humility without humiliation. Led me to some self reflect.

And realizing that you know yeah? The only solution here is to try and become a better person. So so my work. So let me ask you because I I think that's a great lesson to learn and one I have learned through the years sure half his shot of, but a it's important that we recognize the you know that you recognize our place in the universe and time in space. However, it also seems that, no matter how much you change MIT they're, just going to say you're only doing that because of xy and Z, so you never escape that. Does that mean it's do or have you experienced that? Absolutely absolutely that there's? No, you know no way to indicate that you've changed

you're reformed, which you know the only thing that there's nothing you can do to change. How other people correct. Thank you know they're they're, not your problem. You only have control over you, but one thing that that I've certainly taken away is that when I see other people who has been through these kinds of shame. Storms or I hear rumors got somebody. Oh, he did some kind of bad thing in the past or she's guilty of this. If it's been awhile, I always start from the default of assuming. First, they indicate or prove to me otherwise that they have changed in that they had become a better person, give people the benefit of the doubt. It seems. I think we have we're living in a society that just doesn't ever forgive yeah. Well, you know I've gotten a lot of feedback ever since this essay was public uhm. You know some people, some p

whose names I recognized and have seen on tv reached out and said something like this happen to me. Thanks so, for you know, including a ray of hope at the end of your story, but the the messages that got to me the most were from you know: people in small town, where nobody had ever heard of horned. That famous, but whose lives have been wrecked or overturned by events like this. You know that that was the worst person on the internet. Forty eight hours and then everybody else not gone, but I'm still here Living at this guy could spend so much time talking to Helen what one question before we go. We got about one minute: you wound up eventually reconnecting with your ex boyfriend, where this whole incident started and you've you've talked to him. Since how do you what's your relationship like now this yeah? I know it's quite positive. You know

We we we because he suffered just as much as I did. You know he eventually lost his job over over this incident and and he's kind of right here on the internet. You find it hard to get gigs now, and so we both kind of learned, a lesson he he. I asked him if he would do it over again, if he, if he has a choice- and he said absolutely not add a chance so yeah now and- and I forget him and he forgives me- and that's really the moral of this story Ellen. Thank you for having the guts first of all for not giving up. And and then finding the positive message in it and and changing your life. I think of redemption. That's not going to go viral, but it should because it's important than I think it's going to happen to all of us in one way or another Helen. Thank you

Thank you so much one. You bet the blaze radio network on demand