Hither Stephen Dublin. I hope you ve been having great summer today, I'd like to update you on what we ve been doing this summer and to give you a preview of Far, as you may know, for economics, radio was are one and only podcast for a long time. At last year rate, in the teeth of the pandemic, we decided to create the freedoms. Radio network are first spin off show was called no stupid questions which I co host with Angela Duckworth psychology, professor at the University of Pennsylvania, who is incredibly dynamic and insightful. If you have not heard it yet, here's what no stupid questions sounds like we ve taught them. We Stephen about the spotlight effect Right Tom Television everybody's, paying attention to what I am doing yet and what I'm wearing and my our style? I just increased so often overestimate we get self conscious and we get in secure

Now with you, we actually do pay attention to all those things most able without. So that's no stupid questions. The next year we launched was people I mostly admire the host. That show is my for economics friend and CO authors well, who is an economist at the University of Chicago? But, as you may know, lever is not your typical economist. Is that you're typical anything? This fact is reflected in the raising conversations that love it's been having on people mostly admire with guests lake. an economy in and my Bialik SAM Harrison. Susan would just be talking everything from metaphysics, to autonomous vehicles and even economics, including the economics of women's professional basketball, here's lever with Sue bird who just one her fifth Olympic Gold medal. So the average player in the nba-

made eight point three million dollars into that nineteen and in the W Nba the average with eighty thousand is frustrating at times by I live in reality. I understand business and economics where looked at in one of two ways. Some people look at us as like charity and if they do look at us as an investment immediately its talked about how we don't make money. I think people look at many sports and immediately see potential, even if it doesn't exist, whereas we are never. We haven't been invested in our potential. You guys don't make money and it's like fifty years ago, the NBA did either that's where my issues lie. Just a few weeks ago we launched another weekly show. This one is called for Economics MD. The host is popular Jenna, whose both a physician

and a research economist, he does very clever empirical work. That is right at the intersection of health care in the real world. Like this today, we're tackling flew shots. A seemingly straightforward, easily come by run of the mill vaccine unless you're baby you're a toddler as an adult. If I want to get my flu vaccine, I can get it at my doctors office. I can get it a walk in flew clinic. I can get it from my employer But little kids can usually only get a flu vaccine at a doktor S office and kids, who are healthy, tend to

only go see a doctor once a year, usually around their birthday, so do kids with summer birthdays miss getting flew shots more often, and if so, what are the ripple effects? Reconnects empty brings us up to four weekly shows in the friggin I'm tritium network. You can follow all of them for free in any part cast up, but we are not stopping it. For our motto you may recall, is it free can mix, explores the hidden side of everything, so we ve got a variety of projects in developing shows

mass about dogs, about the economics of everyday things, you probably never give much thought to, and today we want to give you a sample from another new show. We are working on this one. Does anyone have a title get so after you hear the episode? If you have a good idea, let us know where radio for economics that come, but we do have an idea for the show, the idea being with everything going on in places like Afghanistan, Russia, China would not be useful to have a small podcast on foreign policy and national security, to hear from someone who can reveal the hidden side that world. So we reached out to one of the smartest people in this realm, Michel Flournoy, a former it took on official on the highest ranking women in the history of the defence department. Michel. Are you there high Stephen? Can detect here may to talk to you

so, as I just mentioned, one of the new projects were working on is a cast with you about foreign policy and national security interests you already? What is the relationship between those two foreign policy, national security which is the chicken and which is the egg good question? We can have a ladder debates back, but I like to think that foreign policy she is dealing with all of our relationships in the world are international engagement and national, secure it is really a subset, a few well of the things that really touch on the security of the United States and of Americans peer and abroad, I was hoping you'd say that that security was a subset of foreign policy. But then I thought you could say well without security policy becomes a totally different animal, That's probably true too. That's why we can have an airline debated so is understand it. The idea behind this new show is that you will be having conversations with policymakers and decision.

Makers who have been in the room. where it happened as Lynn men, while Miranda put it in the musical Hamilton. I've heard you are yourself a big Hamilton fan. Are you somehow tricking us into making a foreign policy musical? I wish that I dont think any of our gases. Likely to burst into saw that they all have really fascinating stories to tell and they can bring you inside a key decision or a major event as if you know you two were in the room, swallow mean to be cynical at least not to cynical, but for the average pocket listener. Why does it matter? What's the value in knowing more about this kind of decision? Making, we don't have any influence will every day there are policies being made and executed in our name, and I think in a democracy it so important for citizens to understand, what's happening and

I also understand this is a very human endeavour. This is human beings coming together grappling with really tough situations and making the best decisions. They can but often decisions that are flawed or imperfect or don't work out like they were intended. Can we talk about Afghanistan for a moment? Mitch. Mcconnell recently criticise President Biden for pulling out of Afghanistan the way he did, even though that pull out was begun under the previous Trump administration. When I see politics and foreign policy collide as they, are now with Afghanistan, I'm really is to know what that relationship is like between elected officials and foreign policy. Civil servants there's always politics in terms of how people respond to decisions that a president makes. My guess is that if the Biden team had it to do over again, they probably would have focused on taking up a number of things before

That decision was announced really pressing the negotiations to try to get a cease fire in place. I know they were trying that, but that got cut short, having a plan to take care of all of the Afghans who helped the: U S and their families. getting them out of harm s way, having a plan for supporting the Afghan national security forces from over the horizon having more of a plan for how we were going to deal with counter terrorism threats from us. The horizon, and instead the decision was made up front and then all of

says Ben rolling out in a way that much more chaotic, then it probably needed to be tell us in general, about the kind of person that you wanna talk to on the show which sectors or realms will they come from. I like to talk to people who have been on the front lines of national security. They could be policymakers from the White House. They could be diplomats, they could be humanitarians. People have done development work in crises on the ground, military leaders, so they have either been at the decision making table or they ve been participants on the ground in them. Consequential events in recent history, we will hear from one such person in a few minutes, he's a former forced our admiral in the Navy who held tremendous responsibility in U S nuclear strategy. But before we get to the conversation you had with him, let's Leno, but more about you because you

you two have been in the room where it happened during the Obama administration and to some degree in the Clinton administration as well, but your most senior government role in the Obama administration in the Pentagon, the zero kind of thumbnail job description that you might find unzip recruiter if S job were postponed, zipper greater, which I assume it's not shared, they tested answer prepare the job was under Secretary of Defence, for policy, and the role is to support the secretary of Defence in all of his or her. international engagements to support him her in all of their engagements in the National Security Council, which is the primary decision making body or advising body for the president and then also to help the secretary, because we're in a democracy provide civilian oversight of military strategy plans and operations in which secretaries did you. Surrender

so in the clinic ministration I served under less aspen and then Bill Perry and then William Cohen, and then they are bombing ministration under our gates and then Leon Platter. Talk about your data day work in the old bomb administration. What was at lake, so I over saw a staff of about a thousand people, and I had oversight over three defence agencies that focused on different topics a typical day I would start with an intelligence briefing, then moving too often a National Security Council meeting either at the deputies level, where the principles level over in the White House then coming back, maybe so helping the secretary prepare for a foreign country coming to visit and the Pentagon maybe we'd be reviewing a war plan or a contingency plan or proposed operation in the afternoon, when you look around the world at this moment. What do you see is the matter

Three major foreign policy pot spots, maybe their obvious, maybe they're, not one is Taiwan, I don't think either Beijing or Washington wants to go to war over Taiwan, but we are very bad at understanding. Each other's resolve. Calculus capabilities and the risk of miscalculation is higher than it should be. So that's the first thing I think in the wake of all these cyber attacks so what we ve seen recently from solar wind to the ransom where attacks the thing that worries me is that at some point one of these attacks is going to inadvertently kill some Americans like if you had an attack that took down electricity gas and suddenly the hospitals, Louis Electricity, you're actually gonna have Americans die. Then what does a president do and the risk of that

escalating into something that was never intended, is one of those things that you know keeps me up at night and then I guess for a third I'd, say the real sleeper that nobody thinks about day today. But we could wake up tomorrow in a crisis, India, Pakistan, they have had three wars. Since the creation of the two states. They both have nuclear weapon, but they ve deployed near their borders. You know if they got into another conflict, we could be in a nuclear situate. seven overnight, with almost Sera warning Some shell, this new podcast, is not your first forward in two journalism. I know that during college you worked as a stringer for Time magazine, but then you abandoned the glorious heights of journalism for the muck in shadows of foreign policy. What made you interested in stepping back into the lake now, you know the honest chief

as I couldn't decide which side of the interview I wanted to beyond for like ten years, even when I was working in foreign policy, I was moonlighting for public television station. So what forced my hand was, my first job in government, which decidedly put me in to the foreign policy defence policy practitioner camp and one sided. the interview, so we are going to hear now your conversation with retired admiral, Cecil Hany. A lot of us. Have image stereotype of what a four star Navy Admiral is like how well or poorly would you say, Admiral Hany fits that stereotype. He is definitely not. The stereotype he is a very humble servant, leader who is a wonderful story, teller and just a very down to earth person, are eight Michel Flournoy. Thank you so much. It is a joy.

way to welcome you to this little for economic radio network that were building. So I'm thanks for coming to play in our sandbox and let's now here, Your conversation with retired Navy, Admiral Cecil Hany as told Stephen a moment ago. I want this show to grapple with some of the most important national security issues of the day and we'll get to those issues through the stories of people whose shaped the decisions the people have been at the table. The people who ve been on a lines executing the policy Cecil Hany is one of those people. During his for decades, nodded states. Navy Hany rose to the ranks as a submarine commander, then a rear, admiral and vice admiral. When he took command of the U S specific fleet, he became one of the country's first black

forced our animals and then ultimately he became the commander of U S strategic command, which is responsible for all nuclear forces and global strike capabilities for the United States. He was the person on point to provide nuclear options to the president and the sector, defence in a crisis that experience gave. some pretty unique insight into nuclear developments around the world when we look at the invest? commence that of Russia and a rising China have today, we have to look at that with eyes wide open, as we look at the challenges that will come ahead. If we don't get this right, we won't be grants box than a corner, and if nuclear deterrence fails, that will not be a good day for the United States of America and for Well, we're just gonna talk about nuclear deterrence. I started my career as a nuclear arms control analysed that was during the cold war, more

thirty years later, the challenges facing our aging nuclear Arsenal are very different. He'll also talk about what the? U S mouth. It needs to do to address racism and extremism and what it will take to get more people of color into leadership roles. You cancers, pay attention to it for five years and then stopped paying attention to it. Thinking, ok, we're successful we're done. I didn't get a chance Fortunately, it actually serve alongside Admiral Hany in the Pentagon, but we have gotten you know, each other serving on a non profit board together, and I just think the world of him as someone who was often the only woman in the room. I wondered what his experience was like as a black man coming up the ranks of the Navy So in this episode, what we're gonna do is talk about his experience from his time at the EVIL academy all the way through to becoming an admiral forty.

years ago, when Cecil Henny first thought about joining the military He had his eyes, not in the Navy, but on the army. His father was not very excited about. This Jesse digs had expired, against racism while serving in the army during World war. Two oh, he grew up in the military at a time frame were we were a segregated organisation of sport, and as a result, the EU could sense there, where some disappointment from him in terms of the overall treatment but also coming back to a nation that was clearly divided in terms of how african Americans should be in society and equality in equity. In those things we talk about today, Jesse was a bus driver for greyhound and some of his passengers were midshipman from the. U S. Naval Academy in Annapolis, Jesse got to know some them any like them

maybe it's somewhere path would be right for Cecil So and Mauritania in nineteen, seventy four, you were admitted to the Eu S Naval Academy, a huge achievement unto itself. What was it like when you are actually their will? there's a guy growing appear in concrete city of Washington D C. thing. I was in his prepared for as many other midshipman were. I dunno the swamp. there were one of my big itself hundreds coming in was going through swimming in which we called Swimming Sub Squad. I can t got to learn how to swim as part of that education, but it was all very busy place? You were never more there I'll put it that way always challenge challenge, intellectually challenge physically, and as a result, there was an environment that, quite frankly I thrived then so the most

I like to think of itself as server colorblind meritocracy. What was your experience in the Naval academy? Did it feel like that to you, or did you encounter some challenges just because people weren't used to seeing a person of color in the ranks I was not as alone as one would think in that we had a larger number of African Americans coming into the academy, so that was one. Two. I didn't run into what I call a lot: a blatant racism or didn't slow down enough to look for him, one of the two did have one incident where I was coming up the stairs hers in Bancroft Hall and one white midshipman turned round to him said the only reason you're here is because of a quota system, and he was roundly with some other await the midshipman. Nobody said anything tat I just kept going

but I tell you that two may have been a blessing in disguise, because I was so motivated to make sure that I was a graduate, regardless of how people thought of why I came in to that school, and I was I study hard to make sure My grades were really needed to be an elite. that behind and stay focused forward towards the goal it's amazing how a common like that can become a sore surf positive motivation. My own experience, my first time and the Pentagon relatively young female. I was a democratic political pointy and my first counterpart meeting, with a one star general officer who happened to be from the south. He said: what's a nice girl, like you doing a job like this, and the assumption was the only reason you're here is because some democratic president they said: there's a quota and women should fill these jobs, but I walked away. From that meeting being very determined to show him why

I was here because I'm competence, and I'm going to add value and so forth, and he eventually turned around but it's amazing how those comments can actually motive. Wait you to excel but it also puts in the back of your head and every interaction, particularly when you, you were the one and only in classrooms and laboratories, where they really thinking about you that they're not saying so you graduating nineteen. Seventy eight, your car mission as an officer in the United States Navy that very day, very every day. I am sure, and your signed, your first submarine, which happens to be named after the former vice president, don T Calhoun a man who was an infamous defender of slavery in the nineteenth century. What was it like to serve a board? A submarine called the John C Calhoun.

well. It was interesting, as I had to wear ball cap with that name when it all the time being it that was it I'm saying you were serving on when I reply aboard I'll. Give you to sort of flavors of this. I was given the opportunity to lead the electrical division and Interior communications division, when I got assigned there, I had mastered Chief Hubbard as my leading chief petty officer, no mass chief was that for Martian DC was from the great state hallo, we were poor, probably in such different camps. But this Individual was a very professional Massachusetts and I credit a lot of my start and success individual who from a diversity standpoint from a growing up? they point, etc. We run opposite ends of the planet, but he would pour me in and we would be able to talk candidly, But what needed to be done associated with making the

vision successful he would hey, hey, sir. You need to go up there and tell the captain about this. You need come back here, look at this equipment, and he wishes God's gift to the planet in terms of teaching young ensigncy. So he had a really do his job as division officer, every candid polite way here I got an individual from the south. That really show me with good look like so it was agreed start on that submarine, even though its namesake was Chauncey Calhoun. The other part was, of course, coming back home in my dad, who would who is homework, even though we had because this occasion he was an avid reader need, say: well, Why is it submarine named after Chauncey Calhoun, and here I had no good answer- form to be honest with you now that the

military is actually in the process of changing names of bases and ships and so forth. Will that be important? Does it make a difference in terms of communicating the kind of inclusive environment we want to create for people in the military who absolutely, I think it so important today when every individual of color goes through a gate walks across a brow and knows that the person the ship or this base was named? Owen was really the wrong side of history? That to me today? I think really can twist that commitment that go get em that drive that we need our military to have taken detract from it in a bad way. It is something that we need to correct.

then, and we definitely need to correct now say you ve already mentioned your master key from Alabama, who became you know a mantra sorts. How did you find mentors going forward in your career. I dont think there were too many african american officers senior officers at that point in the Navy. So you know who are your mentors? What was their council to you as someone who was rising in the ranks, the story for me when I was in my first school before reporting to that. submarine the Jonesy Calhoun mice. Often another individual mill Williams, who became vice app on before he retired. We were both classmates. Him were going through the pipeline training. At the same time, a gap in the name of peat tomes, who became first every american commanding officer over, submarine of United States Navy. He called us over to his lodging room and wanted to talk as we know, the centre, did your, but we got a note governments in then

this individual we instrumental in telling us hey there that many of us in their separate business, I count on you to work hard and to perform. Don't expect any favours keep your nose through the grass. I wasn't one of these pleasant treat kind of meetings whatsoever, but they tell you when I look back at any success, you say I had it goes back to that conversation. We ended up establishing this thing we call this continual seven, the first seven african Americans, psychotic man submarines in the first one hundred years of our Navy submarine service and as such we became mentors for many. What am I- best mentors was someone who gave me very tough feedback. Who basically sat me down and said: look as the only woman in every room as someone who's gonna be trying to break in this very male environment. You can

his be as good as you have to be better and you have to go after weaknesses and fix them. So my weakness at the time was- I was terrified of public speaking and he put me through this programme because he thought we would hold me back and he also said you have to toughen up. I remember him saying: never let them make you cry so that sort of tat, love mentorship was really important knowledge, As you know, and as a rose through, the ranks in particular became a flag off sir. It was ok now, who will I get management from Five officers are the most senior officers in the fleet, the Navy

his version of generals, the people with the stars on their shoulders. Seesaw Hany became a fired off. Seventy thousand five, when he was promoted to rear admiral and pinned on his first star, he retired as a full forced our admiral, having served as the commander of the Navy specific fleet and then U S, strategic, manned as you rise in the ranks. What is it experience alike to people become more colorblind, because you have proven yourself clearly, because you ve been promoted several times your performing you're a leader. Does it get better as get more senior. My pants so the more senior you get that, obviously the more people salute three bags full, but the real key What are you really thinking and now and you still within a rooms, were you're the only person of color and you might reflect the little bit backing at Midshipman day, there's somebody there. Thank you

there because of a quota system. So how did you experiences sort of shape you as a leader. How did you go about creating a more equitable and inclusive environment under your command? The peace? I think for me really got back to my roots of being in the submarine force. A small crew demanding a lot intricate operations were, you really headed depend on each and every individual. The other thing afforded. You is really knowing each and every individual. So the scary, part, as I got in the bigger and bigger organisations, was why I can't possibly know each and every individual that works for you, their weaknesses, etc. so I need a form that out and make sure others are paying closer attention to it, but even as a leader that whole business of walking around talking to your people even up to the last job, you were supposed to teach companion over one hundred and fifty,

all the people working for you. If I go down and get my own coffee at the cafeteria, and I could stop in line and talk to people, but I was really going in but more senior year. They are going to ensure that with you, you had to really have tactics, techniques are really get into their head. Sir, I found one people realise that you are interested in what they think what they're doing And you have that genuine concern. They will do all kinds of push ups for the organization because they want to be part of the team, but if they don't feel that their voices heard, for whatever reasons weathers because of the lack of diversity or what have you that becomes a in Peterman to success. They say that listening is the highest form of respect right and when people feel listen to. They feel like their voices heard, as you say they feel like they can contribute to the organization and the success of the team that does wonders for the climate and the environment and making people feel like there are part of it. We would be

planning strategy revenge you now the room would be filled with a bunch of people and you'd have the primary talker, as it everything I love to do is say when you were in the room here. We ve been talking about this for about half now. What do you think and that individual would the first squirm a little, but then Sometimes you would get reinforcing information or you could tell the body language that person wasn't sold. You hit the drawback in something a little bit more you know they used to do that. All the time was President Obama in a situation room so my boss, see their sector gazers actuarial Panada would be at the table. I would be the plus one sitting behind and before he would instead of clothes out a meeting or make a decision. Present Obama would always go around the back wall, not just at the table, but the back wall, and I had this bad habit of scowling when I'm concentrating and so on.

be sitting there. Scalping president, whereby would say Michel looks like you disagree. What do you think it? A secretary gates will turn around. Over his shoulder like what are you doing, but it was a wonderful way to really fretful ensure that he got the full perspective of everybody in the room. heard any dissent that he needed to hear before he made a tough decision and created that sense of you know we're all trying to help them make the best decision possible and that's what matters. No one's gonna shoot the messenger. If you want to pick up and raise the different points. A really important element of creating a great leadership climatic man climate And I think is very important and military because we grow up. You know everybody marching in formation turn left here turn right here and getting people out of that syndrome of window. You have to be uniform, then, when you need to really plan and really extract from everybody. What do you think

let me I be missing with this particular picture according to a department of Defense Report, from twenty twenty, just under half active duty enlisted personnel in the? U S: military are people of color about forty seven percent, but when you look at officers the people in leadership roles that figure drops down to twenty six percent? I asked Admiral Henny why there are more people of color leading the? U S monetary. Well, I think it's complicated. It's in the very intricate peace that goes back to night is policy, but the implementation Policy and understanding and valuing the business of diversity threw out the ranks in this requires a steady attention. You can't just pay attention to for five years and then stop paying attention to it. Thinking elk

if we are successful, we're done. Let's move owing to the next problems, and meanwhile none stand the sustainability efforts that have to occur there in order to get anybody up to the captain. The rear, admiral two vice animal to full forced our admiral takes a concerted effort of mentorship paying attention to whose available who's on the bench. Are you giving them the right experiences that you would want that individual to have at admiral level of any number of stars I have, Appertain to serve on an ex turn all task force for the Central intelligence Agency on diversity, what they were fighting They were very, very good at recruiting a representative class of entry level officers very clear still marrying the demographics of the United States. But if you fast forward to of thirteen years in when people were finally

being considered to their equivalent of promotion. Tat General off Sir Senior Intelligence service a lot of the women had disappeared, a lot of them. Of color had disappeared, and so, The study was really a systematic look at where are the barriers? What is the experience that is causing people to leave. whether its lack of mentorship or sponsorship, whether its in said bias, whether its required instead basically make it impossible for women to have Many children and stay competitive for promotion as operations officers, for example, then that it see This is what you are talking about. Is we it really look at it at every step, along the way, very much so that retention peace in my mind, is so critical in terms of retaining enough.

Whenever category you're looking at their so that they can in fact compete and be available for the upward mobility. You would hope that they would have because they are sought. After you know, by other companies and corporations, and when I talk about just the real, his pace. We sometimes have in the military, in our assignments, moving periodically to different areas, uprooting your kids, From different school systems, and what have you that become a negative. If you dont have the other part of the positive right in terms of that person filling them, Are you feeling that someone cares enough to sit down and tell me what I'm doing good, but what I'm doing there neither go work on so that I can be promoted bull in Peter

coming up after the break will turn to national security and the future of the country's nuclear weapons. So today, day to day you every day on radio that we have this story as old as time the story begins, guess you could say with a mystery slippery, miss it's like a journey about this thing: money, spicy, sire, man versus animal, on emergency fiction, its radio. Take me away Listen wherever you get your bike and a political climate were polarization, is off the charts finding Common ground often feels impossible in the new weekly pod

asked on common ground with Ban Jones NEWS. Commenter Van Jones explores issues that affect us all from climate change to racial inequality, to the state of our democracy. If you're looking for conversations about hope and real solutions that can unite us join fan and his guests on the journey to find uncommon, ground, listen to uncommon ground, on Amazon, music, apple, pod cats or wherever you get your pod cats. So I want to ask you about your final leadership position in the? U S: military, when your head of? U S strategic command, which is basically you know in charge of all? U S: nuclear forces. That is a very daunting set of responsibilities, tell us a little what about that experience

that really, in some regards got my training wheels going in terms of bringing to the department plans assertion in it with. How do we do deterrence better every war fighting plan that we had. The foundation of that plan is based on nuclear deterrent working and you can't shorts. that peace is, I came in a board has commander of you a strategic man. It was the timeframe were, I could sense in a lot of the military and has our country as a whole nuclear deterrence with something that wasn't being talked enough about didn't laden with the cold war, observe view that was the preponderance of the argument and don't we need the just cut more of it. As we reduce the role of nuclear weapons, which was the presidential goal. But with this goal still work is that we would have a credible nuclear deterrence. Keep a bill

and some would have looked at the first part and said well now, let's just cut the forces, will then in itself has a price form of deflating the energy of those working in that business, whether there and missile silos, or whether they are operating from ballistic missile submarines or whether they are flying. Training missions with C b to stealth bomber will be. Fifty two bombings has been flying for awhile and that support was being deflated at the time frame that I really felt we needed to pump up the volume. in terms of how important this mission is for our nation, because it has existential consequences if we get it wrong, and now at the brink, that if we are successful and modernization now now now we will lose their capability.

the ability resurrected once you lose, it is way too hard. It may not be done in time, particularly as we confront competitors like China and Russia that have growing capability in these As you said, the arsenal has aged the submarine launched missiles, the intercontinental ballistic missiles, land based leg of the triad. The bar All of these are aging you now have a modernization bill that Congressional Budget Office estimates. something like? Half a trillion dollars they abide, administration will be conducting a nuclear posture view which has a policy review of all. Things relate the two nuclear weapons. What our strategy should be, what our posture should be, what the force should look like What do you want to see come out of that review? How do we square the circle of fundamental importance? the foundation, but huge price tag if we were to modernize everything equally,

Sometimes we look at a bill and say: oh, it's, gonna, cost x amount and weave, unfortunately, been in that pickle of passing that bill down stream to session then? Now it looks tremendous to us and I would hope, as we go into the new capacity, we don't come in with some pie, see notion that ok, we need this nuclear push review in order to kill this programme, we need to understand what is it really take to have a credible nuclear deterrence capability, that's foundational to every war plan that we would have, if, God forbid, we had to take on a China. Take on Russia and that's not just the platforms. It's also the nuclear industrial base that supports those nuclear weapons, the industrial base, ship building or aircraft building or miss.

the building, as well as the command and control capability to direct forces under duress in your worst day of communications capability. So when You are strong com commander and I have to ask this cause. I started my career as a nuclear arms control analysed Euro she very supportive of strategic arms control and the Bite administration came and they extended for five years. There is the new Start treaty which limit. The number of strategic nuclear weapons in both the? U S and Russia why has struck come commander where you so supportive of arms control? What role does arms control plan this equation? Will arms control is hard work in the me, it is part of that strategic deterrence capability, a country has

when you look historically at some of our successes on strategic weapons, you look at how much we had in the coal or to how much we have now, and you can look at that report guards a week. and wonderfully and reducing the number of nuclear weapons. The other peace that is important in my mind, is here. Matt ability to have some transparency into each other's capability, the even just the thing of every time you test launch something. That's oh come then, or that we tell the other side before doing so, and just the conversations that have to occur to get to an agreement Are the kind of conversations you would want these major powers to have in those actually bring more stability? I think going or, as you listen to the national Security conversations day, is.

there are an issue that you feel we should be paying more attention to that's, just not getting a mouth focus or bandwidth or energy will, today, as I look at the stage of competition technologically between us and, for example, China, we have to be careful that we make those crisp decisions and enough time so that we can get the capability we need whether we are talking about military capability, or if we are talking about that technology, that we to sustain our economic advantages going for So this is an area that I think We as a nation neat, invest more, so it's not just all technical, but we have to have the education system. so that we can be armed as best we can with the right brains to be able to get those problems we don't even understand today that will be out there tomorrow.

Ok Well, thanks for bringing us that conversation with Admiral Hany, you ve had a little time to process it by now. I'm curious what stuck with you? What have you continued to think about one or two things? That's really stuck with me is: oh thoughtful and Mauritania has been about his experiences and what it means to be a good leader. He could have become a little hard or bitter, given some of what he went through, but instead he just turned round said. Ok, how do I become a better meant

how do I help improve the navy? How do I be a better leader where diversity and inclusion is welcomed? I admire that. He has a almost unshakeable sense of optimism. Yeah that really struck me to that. whether he was talking about issues of identity or issues of national security that his perspective just about everything was remarkably considered, and what struck me about the conversation is how rare it is to hear that kind of tone and consideration in the public sphere, because you know if you watch a little bit of cable news. For instance, you get pretty close to zero you know we are hearing from the noisy few on most of the cable channels and social media. But in my experience one of the things I laughed about working in the defence permanent national security. More

Firstly, as you have so many altruistic people who just want to serve, who just want to make a difference, be part of something on behalf of the country do good where they can and the motivation of this podcast is like bring you their stories. Who are these people behind the scenes who are actually doing this work and letting people will come away feeling better about the people who serve them in government? I hope that's case So you and I have talked about having your guests revisit a specific decision or outcome brings

back to the room where something happened and reflect on that. With hindsight and with wisdom, I'm curious how good you think you are colleagues or former colleagues in the defence Department in State Department will be at doing that. I think it's much is here with farmers, then with current officials, so they're just speaking for themselves. I think coming at these. Shoes through their personal stories, hopefully will help them to just relax into telling their stories, and obviously one of the criteria for choosing guests will be people that we think are willing to open up and be candid and do that reflection with us in conversation. Well, to that end, let me say to our listeners: if you have ideas for people

like to hear from four people. You would like to hear unpack a decision from the foreign policy or national security realm. We would love to hear from you. Our address is radio at for economics thought come also. The fact is the naming progress can be even harder than making a pot guess so. We'd love to hear your ideas on that to again radio at for economic stock Come Michel floor and we thank you so much. I look forward to working with you on this, and I think the world will really benefit from it. So, thanks He's Dave and I'm really excited about the project and look forward to hearing feedback from our listeners.

for economic video is produced by stature and ran, but radio. This episode was produced by Alexander Solomon. Our staff also includes Allison, Craig Low Gregg Ribbon Jaw. My archbishop Libido Zactly, Kinsky Marriage, Duke Ryan, Kelly, Brent CATS, Jasmine, cleaner immaterial, we're about it and Jacob Committee. Our theme song is MR fortune by the hitchhikers of the music was composed by Luis scare. You can get the entire archive of economics, radio on any podcast ass. If he would like to read a transcript or the show notes That's right, economics, dotcom! As always. Thanks for listening gonna get me a little no pair yeah. Have you been guide busy bad, so Exe to do this, and I really appreciate it now, sir, you say that we're we're done now absolutely absurd.

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