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you recently called higher education, Erech you're selling a product that everyone is convinced as essential Scott unseen our ally quality. It's difficult to measure and you can raise Pray without losing customers that doesn't sound, something were used to hearing from the college. President I was being little procedures the gorse, but then I was making the point that at least until recently higher it has been in a very fortunate place where nothing much could go wrong. People did we had to have what it was selling and though they could charge almost anything. They felt like people had no way to know if they were getting a good deal or not the quality was up to the price. changing now and prevention is changing in part because of this man

They know that currently, the President of Peru University, pretty who is a large well regarding state University established in eighteen, sixty nine in West Lafayette Indiana there more than thirty, two thousand undergraduates, nearly ten thousand grad student, its best known for its business, and Nearing programmes produced more astronauts. The other non military institution midday, I spent most of his career, not in academia, but rather in business. He worked for the pharmaceutical firms, Eli Lily and primarily in politics. He worked in two way: houses a former adviser to President Reagan, George W Bush director of the Office of Management and budget, he became a popular to term he was elected governor of Indiana in two thousand for and turned around a stroke, Lange Economy, the stables How can we got here? We fix that in a great big way, Daniels with such an economic, pragmatic.

An area. Indiana has fared better than most states is by reining in the state budget that some people thought you might make it to the White House. The latest on the twelve race and another potential candidate for President Indiana Governor, Miss Daniels, but instead of that presidency, six years into this one at Purdue and is threatening to blow up economic orthodoxies. College education, the Austrian caused of attending our school and twenty twenty one will be, wasn't twenty twelve, not everyone loves his cost cutting then cheers erupted when several staff and faculty members voiced their concerns about China is to produce pay time off policy. It sometimes depressing to work out because it feels like it. It's bad thing after bad thing, after cotton after cut but Miss Daniels If he knows what college should be and what it shouldn't be,

water features, inclining walls and the concierge services. Today economics, radio, there's a car tuition, debt crisis in America and its even worse than you think so, what's being done to fix it And friends, stature and Gunnar productions, this desperate economics, radio broadcasts and explores the inside of everything. Here's your home! Stephen Definite If you look at higher education as an industry which should because essentially it is then you'd have to it knowledge of this industry has been booming between two thousand and two thousand ten undergraduate enrollment

U S, colleges increased by thirty seven percent, as demand rose, so did the price from two thousand to twenty. Sixteen, the average annual cost of college more than doubled around fifteen thousand a year to nearly thirty two thousand dollars over the past twenty years, only two other goods or services have risen as much as college. One is hospital services, the other is college textbooks, since one thousand nine hundred and eighty five college cost have risen, we're times faster than the consumer price index. Why? There are a number of reasons one has to do with what economists call baubles cost disease? that's what happens when salaries rise in this case the salaries of college administrators and faculty staff without a commensurate rise in productivity, We also see this in the performing arts and in hospital services by the way,

even though there is a lot of technology in hospitals and in colleges, they still require There are a lot of real people spending a lot of real hours to get the work done. It's not like manufacturing we're automation, creates efficiencies. It's not like software, where the millionth copy cost way less to make them splendid another reason: the price of college has risen so much because college has become even more valuable people with it. college education have always earn more than those without. But if you look at the data from nineteen, seventy, then from two thousand then from twenty fifteen. The earnings gap between workers with and without college degree has become an earnings chasm and Oh as Mitch Daniel said people did feel they had to have what it was selling and they can charge almost anything they felt like did the quality of the product rise along with the price the?

absence of any real objective, the way to measure what students or learning are the growing, intellectually. In fact, we have. evidence, it says, are not growing very much, but in the Alps of any proof of quality. People have come to associate steeper Bryce with quality. If it costs more must be better. It also helped that the federal government and others, were more than happy to lend money for college? We know empirically it's no longer somebody's theory that flooding the marketplace with third party subsidies, grants and loans and so forth. enable hired keep raising its prices the newer fed? most recent of many them identify this phenomenon and basically they find that for every dollar of new power, subsidy colleges of raised a prize between

sixty and seventy cents? So as demand for college was rising and costs were rising and loans were rising? You know what else has been rising. Don't you. Student death is hard to overstate the magnitude and the severity of the college debt load. In the? U S. Roughly forty five million people have student loan debt totalling one point: five trillion dollars of those who graduate from a public for university. Nearly sixty percent have debt with an average more than twenty seven thousand dollars and those are the graduates roughly forty percent of students at those schools, dont graduate within six years and student, it doesnt matter whether the student gets a job, get a good job succeeds or doesn't the bill? Is there It's gonna compound the interested gonna grow overtime. There's no get out of it, even in bankruptcy.

and you can see that the consequences in the individual lives. Now you can see the big consequences for us all, because people are postponing buying houses are postponing forming families postponing having children their starting fewer businesses than they used to bad deal all round. There's a lot of data to back up what Daniels is claiming here that, Mission debt is a huge drag on the economy over all the Federal Reserve Jerome Powell told the Senate Banking Committee last year that student loan debt quote absolutely could hold back growth. Some politicians are proposing a fairly radical solution: Elizabeth Warren, for instance, the democratic senator from Massachusetts who's running for president. That's why calling for Universal free College and the cancellation of student blunder of up to fifty thousand dollars for forty two million Americans should college

be universally free, some countries do provide that, should all college debt be forgiven. Warren's plan calls for taxing the ultra wealthy to come up with the money, but let's assume that near term at least college won't become universally free and college debt won't be universally forgiven. In in time. What can or should be done to make college more affordable. There have been thirty, six consecutive years of increases here as it virtually. the other school and some of those Not small. Miss Daniels became president of Peru due in two thousand thirteen, when the first things he proposed was a twist freeze, the outset. All I imagine we might do is take a one year time out. How is that Justin received dangles, as previous job remember was governor of Indiana I remember saying I think, probably two sarcastically to folks here-

You know I just landed here on on Mars, but back on earth, their becoming really concerned about the high price of what we're doing here, and when I suggested, maybe just a one year paused there were those among the Romans. nationals. Here, who very genuinely said, oh my gosh, if we stay still, while everyone else goes up again, people will think we don't have confidence. The quality of a product- and I said I just think that's how the earthlings or looking at all this. So we did it and they did it beyond that. One year tuition Purdue has been frozen, at least through the twenty twenty one school year. The cost of room in board was also cut by five: said, so they all in caused in nominal dollars of attending our school in twenty twenty one will be less than it wasn't. Twenty twelve and that's not the economic model that most schools have pursued no we're gonna well for us and

who continue operating on that philosophy. It the best begin how, per do manage to cut its price, not by drawing down a lot more government money. Your support from the state is been moralist flat No Daniel solution lay primarily in cost cutting the same kind of cost, cutting he practiced as governor of Indiana on his first day, ass governor in two thousand five Daniels established office of management and budgetary o n B, the same agency he'd run for the federal government Indiana at the time, eight hundred million dollar budget deficit. Daniels preached a fish, and see and reform at every turn. He cut the state workforce and concern. but aid agencies, he created public private partnerships to run highways and prisons. He repealed collective bargaining DE certified.

public employ unions and made Indiana a right to work state. In other words, textbook fiscal conservative moves. Balance Daniels was incredibly popular. Even what awards for his wildlife conservation efforts and John case it called him. The Michael Jordan of governors now he's being called by the Wall Street Journal America's most innovative university president for making similar moves at Purdue he's trimmed the budget of some big capital projects and killed off other projects. Highly he privatized, universities, bus service, replaced, cafeteria employees with student workers. We sent out furniture for repair rather than buying new furniture, some produce faculty and staff have complained about cost, cutting, they say: you're compensation and benefits are being curtailed. They departments increasingly compete against one another for resources. They say Daniel

the pursuit of corporate partnerships like a textbook deal with Amazon is not good for the university though, controversial was produce recent acquisition of the mind for profit, Kaplan University now called Purdue you Firstly, global which delivered thirty thousand new paying customers, some Purdue professors worry. This would tarnished their brand and spread the university too thin. Miss Daniels argues that his combination of cost cutting and a growth mindset is where, Now, just falling, we have grown our faculty actually faster than the student body, and we have witnessed best ratios in America of Faculty, Tuesday once more about meeting wage? A faculty, though, along with that growth together very competitive? In fact, across the spectrum of over professors, the system associated for seven nine thirteen percent above the nearest big, ten school

and we have not yet the two less expensive, Oscar contingent or temporary faculty. We have the highest percentage of our. faculty or so called tenure track. Among. American research, universities, your own Sensation at Purdue includes perform in schools, and last year you hit all the goal. So congratulations and therefore received a bonus. Of I'm reading two hundred and ten thousand dollars on top of a base salary of four hundred thirty k for total about six hundred and forty k, which is a nice salary, hardly extravagant by college president standards we should say. Meanwhile, the head football coach at Purdue, earned around three point: eight million dollars last year and his team one only six games against seven lost. So to me it sounds like you have a better year than football. Coach did say nothing the fact that he's only running I'll team- and you run the entire university. How do you feel about that construct? I'm fine, I remember that they as Babe Ruth,

they think it was scandals. He was paid two or three times a pressing nights. These. It will have a better year now It's the whirl, wherein has been kind em. My family's provided for I didn't come here for the money I without putting I'm goin on enough money would my object. I had other options: the new dangers. Dues, alumni donations, student retention rates and graduation rates are all way up and so are applications. They ve risen from thirty one thousand a year to fifty three thousand during his tenure. Interestingly, this has happened during a recent decline in college Roman. In the? U S. Earlier, I told you that college enrollment rose thirty seven percent between two thousand two thousand ten, but from two dozen tend to eleven. Sixteen, it's down seven percent. How should this decline be interpreted,

You might say that we simply peak college. A few years ago, the boom came up against the ceiling, or, you might say, the price of college is simply become prohibitive. For too many people, or that would be students and their parents are scared off by the horror stories about lifelong college debt, but you should also consider this fact: com Roman tends to be correlated with the employment rate. When there are a lot of jobs available. Some people skip college to take those jobs in the employment scenario has improved in recent years, so that could also help explain the overall drop in demand for college. This drop in demand is already a acting the supply side. College closures, while still rare, have been rising some

Archer University systems, like the received with constant, are consolidating their campuses for profit. Colleges are particularly prone to suffer from less demand, and their numbers have decreased over the past several years, but a prestigious private car wage or a big public research university like Purdue. They are still seeing historically high demand some students in their parents. or so eager to get into college they'll, pay, bribes and hundreds of thousands of dollars and pretend it play water polo So what does all this mean for the future of college tuition and for long Death, more and more elite schools with huge endowments are offering three to wish for anyone whose family can't afford it, but that covers a relatively tiny portion of the college population. So yes, Purdue makes news by freezing its tuition fees for years, but is still charges Indiana residents, Toronto

a thousand dollars. A year for tuition plus Roman board nonsense in Spain, nearly thirty nine thousand and international student pay over forty one thousand and so coming up after the break. Miss Daniels Purdue are trying something much more radical than a tuition fees, freeze, so an income share dream. I foresaw essay by Milton Friedman. Fifty sixty years ago, who isn't the only school trying an income share agreement once they find a job that is A nice salary. It is seventy percent of your income for three and a half years also lessons from the australian version. That's coming up right after this. Fr Economics: radio sponsored by capital, one with no fee is or minimums on checking and savings accounts, banking with capital,

The easiest decision in the history of decisions. like choosing to listen to another episode of your favorite podcast and with their top rated app. You can deposit x and transfer money anytime anywhere making capital one and even easier decision? That's banking re? Imagine what's, in your wallet terms, apply capital. One a member of the icy for economics. Radio sponsored by Petsmart Petsmart makes it safe and easy for you to care for your pet at Petsmart. The health and safety of employees, pet parents and pets are its most important, which is why they require face coverings, social distancing and stop plexiglas shields and enhanced cleaning to follow CDC recommendations for contact with him. Thing just order online at Petsmart, not com or on the Petsmart app,

Joy, easy curbside, pick up for same day: delivery powered by door dash free through January thirty. First, two thousand twenty one check out: Petsmart dot com for more details. Miss Daniels grew up mostly in Indianapolis. He studied. Public policy in law at Princeton in Georgetown respectively, and went on to work. the federal government under President Reagan and Bush, the younger? He was also a farm suitable executive and was ceo of the Hudson Institute conservative thinking since two thousand thirteen Daniels has been the president of Purdue University, where he froze the price of tuition, cut the cost of Roman board. That alone is enough to make him an outlier. In the college, praise market, but there's more one programme at Produce-

even suggested that I'm really interested in. I think everybody really interested in is what's called back. A boiler that produce boiler makers is Mass, got it's an income share agreement in which If I understand correctly, students can defer summer all I'm not sure, tuition payment in favour of repaying per day the share of their leader income, have the essence right. Does not a deferral of tuition and brilliance pay but instead of that, the Czech coming federal government in alone. It comes from an investment fund, we participated with so did other foundations and now in summer, that private investors and think as equity, not debt to the student doesn't borrow the money they risk shifts from the student, to the investor, if things don't we Well, it's the investor, the investment fund, that's on the hook, quite the opposite.

Dead, so an income share agreement. I first saw it in an essay by Milton Friedman from fifty sixty years ago. It's not a complete replacement, but it's a better option. certainly than the private loans that many students have to take on. There's a lid on how much so heavily fed lay subsidized loans costume can taken when they need more They sometimes wind up with these pretty expensive, dare instruments, so I talk about this. Is you know, work in your way through college, after college and em, if it doesn't work out again you're, not on the hook. Just darting so understand a typical Then it would very with what the students studying, but chemical engineer, number do university would pay about two and a half per cent of income for maybe six or seven years. Somebody studied the

psychology. It might be for five percent of income whatever that income is and must be clear that, because a psychologist making a lot less than a chemical engineer, Grand likely to make less now, let me ask you this: from the investors perspective. Let's say I invested in the fund, that is funding this back a boiler programme to what degree my hand back the students at I'm investing in. Can I buy a tranche of just the chemical engineering students, or do I have to have the psychology in history students in there? Do you can't jury, but the way were doing it? if this thing becomes a broad national movement and we all kinds of ways, but others might approach it. We're not earlier now again closed with students total. Beginning to accumulate some experience, but from the beginning, almost every discipline. We teacher all the way across the liberal arts, the helstone, and says it as well as our biggest fields, which engineering in computer science and the so called stem disciplines still early days. But the repayment history is is very good for all of us and them

you know, we have consumer protection as a moral graduates are gonna hit. The gene potter early they're gonna do so well happens. Every year they can get promoted two or three times there is a top cap. Bob which will you not required to its two and a half times the initial outline that right two and a half times what was invested. Sometimes people who either haven't undressed I don't want to understand this concept have thrown around terms, endangered servitude, which made me laugh because is the opposite. That means one endangered servitude go get a government loan. You can't escape it in this case, what you can He is an affordable percentage low percentage of whatever your income is and that's it. You know that the real thing that we hope to happen here is that this movement will spread. And a lot of other school start get interested in it because they say it be better for their students. There are indeed a lot of other schools and start ups by the way, looking into

income shared agreements, or I essays as a way to rewrite the college tuition equation. and the beauty of an I say is that your aligning interest with a student Chris in Britain, Meyer is head of admissions and enrollment at the whole Britain school. That's a for profit. Software engineer in college opened in two thousand sixteen in San Francisco. It's now got a few other campuses, the schools until and only if the soon's fungi that's over forty k and once they do find a job that is paying them. nay, salary typically are soon, sir, are earning over a hundred k as their first full time suffer engineering position. It is seventeen percent of your income for three and a half years. How does Herbert and cover the costs of running a school if they're not taking intuition partly through? Private investors like any start up, but also two million dollars in investments drawn from ITALY, an online marketplace for income share agreements. So I think the easy

way to think about, Ellie is its kind like the NASDAQ, though you're not investing in companies. Creation during investing in human potential investors only. Dear return on their money, where necessary a successful and the same goes for us, so everyone is plain, same game, we want our students to actually find successful jobs, homer Its founders were also interested in diversifying the Tec world. In that regard, offering free tuition is useful. so it's giving a lot more people access to quality education. We have over sixty percent people of color, thirty percent plus women. We have a lot of college. about we have teachers an artist, a lot of musicians over forty percent of our students are our generation post secondary students and thirty percent of our soon, English is not. The main language spoken at home Overton says all of their first. One hundred and five graduates are employed in the autumn, them are paying their whole Britain dues as scheduled. If our

you're, not getting jobs than we don't get paid and we closes a school and I think colleges that's what they will and set out to be originally was to help get students into careers another We are building school with free tuition is Lambda an online learning start up backed by silicon valleys. Why combination among others, Lambda offers programmes in fields like data science and you ex design at no charge with Lambda getting seven ten percent of graduates salary for two years as long as they get a job penguin fifty thousand dollars with payments capped at thirty thousand hours, so yes there seems to be momentum for the private for profit model of an income sharing agreement, but what about the traditional nonprofit college model and what kind of roll call

An or should government play the Obama administration pushed to make federal loans cheaper and put an interest rate cap on loan payments, but other countries have gone much much much further. Australia, for instance, has for decades offered free tuition, letting graduates pay back the government once their employed with payments could did through federal tax system. That is a very tidy system, especially most of the universities are state run as they are in Australia. There was, however, one big loophole: what if an australian graduates from college and then move the broad to work? Aren't they stealing a free education from everyone else who stays behind and pays back their tuition Australia only managed to close this loophole in two thousand. Sixteen, after more than twenty five years of expatriate Aussies, not paying their government, I wondered about a similar loop

when we had Rhode Island Governor Gina Raimondo on our show last year, she had just make unity, college in Rhode, island tuition, free that led me to ask her this. What kind of residency requirement is their afterwards? If I get a free community college degree from you and then I move immediately to Massachusetts or California, do I have to pay you back? We ask him to make a pledge that those stick around four couple years. So, yes, the deal, is you I have to go full time because we want people graduate you have to keep out the minimum gray point average Cancun to trouble. Gonna be an academic good standing and we want to live in Rhode, island for at least two years after you graduate, Romano may want them to live there, so that Rhode, island recapture the tuition funding through state income taxes

Rhode. Island currently imposes no penalty if a student gets a free tuition and moves away, the Australia loophole in New York state. Meanwhile, Governor Andrew Cuomo is not taking any chances. His plan to offer free college qualifying family requires graduates to stay in New York releases many years as they received free tuition. Otherwise, there tuition bill will be converted into a no interest loan. It would have to be repaid. You can see where the sore this plan free college education with repayment through the tax system. Why be easier at the federal level, with the IRS doing the collecting? In fact, a friend of mine is currently trying to design such a system and he's gathering allies from the education in financial and political communities. So if you are

high, ranking elected official, Democrat or Republican, and you want to hear more from my friend and his allies drop mean email, radio at for economics that come and I'll hook. You up my friend like many others who are trying to think creatively about the college tuition. Debt problem recognizes that current system is unsustainable and that it could be really damaging to our long term economy. and to our society, smart solution will require a lot more political will and would seem to be available at the moment, especially at the federal level. I wondered about this, as I was speaking with Miss Daniels because he's a pretty. if a person- and he had a successful career in politics. So I was curious to ask him about that too,

so, as I read what you ve written over the years and what's been written about you, it seems that the central theme of your political philosophy is fiscal responsibility. Would you essentially agree with that to me, as a problem was it for everything else is an essential stewardship assignment, no matter what you philosophy of government, we can even should have good honesty, differences about the size and school? You know how big the sphere of government should be, but dumb within that there's two things we agree on. What is your pay? Your bills and the more to you, successors in two until the succeeding generations and then secondly, whatever go is doing it ought to try to do it well, which is another, barely neglected assignment. Well, let let's talk about sir. So we know your position generally. Let me ask you about your term at the though, I'm be under President Bush, because spending in that case increase you left that job to run for good,

of Indiana when you left here's what the democratic spokesmen for the House preparations many said quote by these own estimates Daniels. You has preside. over an era which has seen a projected five point: six trillion dollars surplus in two thousand one, the ended the Clinton. Your turn into a two point: two trillion dollar projected deficit today, in short, Miss Daniels is the clown that turned our fiscal house upside down. So that would not seem too to match at all the the fella known as the bleed for for his budget cutting instinct Have you respond to that charge that you come in talking about being fiscally conservative and care oh and leave with a greater deficit. Well made one syllable of that statement, that's true I couldn't find it first of all the actions were there in the air I may be so that everybody else glue now and Greenspan and that everybody in Congress was to him. age and that the you happy

circumstances. In the first year we were there we paid off some debt, the happy confluence of reasonably moderate democratic President Anna Republican House produced to know better fiscal situation, there was a huge bubble in the stock market. The brook and the federal government was enjoying a gusher of temper. revenues from capital gains and income. based on options over and those elections, were never going to come true in history, but clear on that. So I took a little while for obey a figure that out, but that that was a fictional sir, Secondly, I never had a single conversation word debate with the House Appropriations Committee or the Congress would frankly both parties where they were for less spending, and I was ever there were some circumstantial changes. There was little thing called nine eleven. While about Iraq and Afghanistan, gone flags and M that

quiet from spending that every agreed on, but the but Mina wasn't forecast. Before I went to the National Press club not doing it had happened and I talked Yet what Harry Truman did when he cited. We had to engaging William Graham conflict and what Frankel Roosevelt had suggested doing. If you have to spend money on national security emergencies, stop spending money. Elsewhere, Congress didn't buy well Let me ask you this year. Who were in charge of of creating forecast for the cost of potential war in Iraq and its I've read you put that number in the roughly sixty billion dollar range, the ultimate cost was actually in the eight hundred billion dollar range. Just Iraq I'm glad you brought it up, because we ve been some misunderstanding and kick Kate

he's late, some very big misrepresentation of that our elections and I want to get any corrections. But really the larger question I want to ask is this: it strikes me that a lot of U S, policy, tax see spending policy and so on is a result of these sort of accidents of history. Wars, often whether preventable or not, I think back to world WAR two and how that choice. for many many many many years tax policy in the? U s it also changed for many many many years. Continuing to this day, the where health insurance set up connected to employers, which was not the case and in most other countries, was not the case here. As I understand it before world were too so I just want to ask me: is it's a little bit like you know. The famous MIKE Tyson Quo everybody's got a plan until you get punished in the mouth and I'm curious to hear your assessment of how your plan stands up in a world Are these things do happen and throw all the plans out the window

well it's really great question and it lets go back to the front end. Just get that taken care of when the President made the decision, to go to work. It wasn't in anybody's budget. So there had to be what the scholar supplement. What procreation Bill Congress of these by the wake as a general become an opportunity it serves the Chris. ST put other things on there, it was a subtle, No appropriation way specified brooded. I'm the question was: how much will it cost to defeat the iraqi Army and to stay for six months? in the night every day of the planners, The thought was: that's all you have to be their you'd when the war stabilize the situation turn it over to somebody and leave. Now, He is not war planners with women side go to war, We didn't plan the war But if someone having done that, our job was to produce the best estimate weak, The answer that question it turned out

to be pretty darn accurate. In fact, I think it caused a little less than that If someone had asked what we call the beat Iraqi, army and stay for dinner. Fifteen years you got in a very different answer. I argue, during that time rule and b that natural disasters are gonna happen. We have history and Congress doesn't fund those I said when we every year fund what looks to be an average amount of cost, for taking care of floods and hurricanes and the sorts of things that happen. But nobody wants to do that. It What more fun to wait till it happens, then you can have a supplemental building. You can buy all kinds of other things you wanted by and couldn't get in the regular budget colleges and universities in the. U S are famously liberal, at least in terms of political identification among faculty. Let's say so: one study

of more than seven thousand professors from forty leading. U S. Universities found a democratic to republican ratio of eleven point five to one and some disciplines, it's less economics his last laws less, but in others it was much higher in journalism, its twenty two one in history, its thirty three and a half democratic to one report. Bobby, say you are a Republican. You are a university president. I realize it. Purdue in Indiana are generally more conservative, then a lot of other parts of the country, but still I'm curious. What you think this says about the state of universe, is generally and what can or should be done about it. over his law and not a Republican. I'm really, since the middle of twenty twelve and a day accept this job, I said by would dare forswear any part as an activity at a respect for the place and I've. I've maintain that. But You know that those ratios cod when will they probably always, then I left us tilting the academy I can remember fringes

Actually. This is twenty. Five years ago now, saying in of Marxism, so discredited over, there were the scene. At close up. When we need a marxist. Now we have to import one from an american university, so there is nothing new about They are, I think, it's a self selection process. People tuna, probably pick people more like themselves. Meanwhile, I think a lot of folks diesel at the latest. There wouldn't be comfortable there. I'd be isolated or ostracised, and so you do that. for two or three generations are probably gonna get where we ve gotten. I think young by and large, they ve got pretty good them, bs detectors and I think they can overtime figure out if they, if there be in force FED, were you're not offered up a range of factors. To consider Here's the real problem is not a recent books have pointed out van of knowledge. Forget politics. An ideology from the advance of knowledge requires the

vision of ideas and that's what beginning to trouble. I think They even people of more liberal or left us persuasion is what we get this complete harmony This is a dreary conformity and then the free inquiry stopped. Being the driver of newgate. Discoveries and ideas. Well, let me ask you this: when your book keeping the Republic saving America by trusting Our concerns. You wrote, the following: large majorities of Americans are clueless about their own history in the history of past, fallen empires, encourage on every side to think of themselves as victims of an unfair system and their countries, nothing special. They react to economic adversity, not with a bootstraps resolve. Self pity and a search for villains. So, let's assume none of us are fans of self pity or even Mister Travilla. I'm cursed the extent to which you think that a boot straps resolve is really enough to succeed.

in the modern american economy, because it strikes me that the political discontented voters on the right and left argue against that. In other words, your assessment could read as though people have just kind of gotten lazy taken too much for granted, but the fact that that, duration exists means the solution would not seem to just say to people hey change. What you're doing, in other words, is a political solution of the sort that use Those really possible, given our track record, maybe not less fertile That book was resolutely optimistic about the character and the ready this for self government of the american people. I talked about the fact that a lot of people peddling victimization and self pity, and play? Let's assume nobody is a fan of that. Well, there are fans of that and they are advocates for that and it'll make careers of it. If you look back at the birth of this country and was the birth of self government

but the first requirement of self government, is to be over, govern oneself that is if you want to live in a country that is free where people come together and decide about their common future. It presupposes the people have some measure of autonomy and are happy about that when wanted with their own lives. I continue to believe that other still on plenty enough of that in the american character that we can come together as we're going to need do at some point and address problems like national debt and makes them a tour decisions that play The more aware of today. I guess what I hear. You say that I think that there will always a certain segment of any population, that's willing and able to do that, but it seems that every population is majority ruled by people.

Left to their nature, their instincts or the incentives that are presented to them. That absolutely will not engage in long termism, including, I should say, roughly five thirty, four or five people in DC, so I'm curious, whether that optimism that you express do you still feel it having in the political climate in Alaska. Seventy eight years I confessed Hello, shake your about it today lucky enough. Most of us live all our lives under condition. Freedom, but we a mention in the book tripped over the fact on Sunday, original coinage of the American Republic. There was the phrase exit, though in dubious arrest. The outcome is still in doubt the very beginning peoples that boy this experiment, in governing ourselves is really unproven and

I'd, not west. Apparently you thought medium. Hard may be really hard about running for president of the United States in two thousand twelve and perhaps again, two thousand keen and any had quite a bit of support, including in the Pandit autocracy. Of course, it's easy to support people weren't running at its free. Why didn't you run on either occasion well sixteenth easy to answer is I tell people Europe or do I held out and got a better job, and you can still get called president too sometimes ass, they look at this point in life are not taken. The demotion about the twin Eleven was different. I didn't take. It too Is there for a long time, a stunning array, a number of people said they thought it was idea. So I I didn't take. A little mound think hard about it, but you know them did at the end of the day,. My family was the witches

five women in it when they are unanimous on somethin error, formidable group. They were very uncomfortable or that they had seen public life, not just the state but at the national level we knew what it was about. A young, and ways forming, and they just didn't feel that they wanted to spend next several years in that one of my Did you know you got a fatal problem in this whole process, Georgia has. It will probably lot of wood, which one are you talking about, and he said then can live without it, and you know what went on has to be fully possess. But the idea, as I told people the time I don't ever remember, You look in the shaving Mertensiana Press United States staring back, but the the other thing I mean a father before daughters has no good answers to the statement. Daddy, please don't,

Let me just ask you. Finally, the Trump Presidency been unusual on a lotta dimensions. Knowing what I've gleaned about you, I'm guessing that a lot of his policy active's and instincts are in line with what you like. Knowing what I know about you also, however, I'm guessing that a lot of the conduct is not to your liking, some curious whether that reading is accurate, or rather I should probably to shut up in, and let you tell me a little bit about what you think of the president and the presidency thus far Other word should shut up about you ve already get me to say more about things, political than I generally do or or wish do again, this public university. An idea I have taken very seriously. The vow re like I was a vow of political celibacy that I took years ago while confessed to them it has its pluses especial.

Areas contentious as this one in our folks get so roused up on both sides. That is awfully nice to be neutered, not too long after Twenty twelve after I said I would come his job. It was the didn't. I think it's fares, a disappointment to allies in the pouring, including candidate for governor for my pensive time that I said, I'm not gonna go gifts, beaches or make commercials and for anybody this file, I'll bet them anywhere government fellow governor who with some some kind of a shop tat call, I can't remember exactly, but how to handle this issue. I got this problem. What what would you do about it Your daddy said, ok, great, the thanks. He seldom saucy and Amber next month at the convention- and I said well now explained and hope the earnings will objective dreadful. It's all pause, and he said you

ever bastard- and you know that many times since, though- and I thought this is not a bad time to be on sidelined- you found the cleverest way out. Didn't you Let me just say it has worked out that well for me, my family, come up next time for economics, radio, I'm we're just key, and I am the co founder in ceo of twenty three and twenty three me is at the centre of a personal Genetics revolution revolutionary, more ways, and you know there's this for somebody with a fatal illness. that can be maddening like I just gave you my data do something, but there is also this. Let me tell you what it's like. to find out. You were wrong just.

Plain wrong about who you are and where you come from its next time on, for example, yeah freedoms, radio is produced by stature and w productions. This episode was produced by Harry Huggins. Our staff also includes Allison Craig Little Gregg Ribbon, Zactly Kinsky met Hickey and Cornwallis or theme song is MR fortune by the hitchhikers. All the other music was composed by Luis scared. You can subscribe differently, radio, an apple podcast or every get your pod gas. The entire archive is available on the stage. pour it for economics, dot com, or we also publish transcripts and show notes? If you want to hear our entire archive ad free, plus a bonus, episodes go to state your premium dot com, flash Next, we also publish every week on medium short text. Version of our new episode go to medium. Come slashed for economics, radio. We can also be found on Twitter, Facebook, endless

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