Some regions oh. Welcome to the Commentary Magazine Daily podcast today is Thursday April twenty third, twenty twenty, I'm John for the editor of Commentary magazine with me. As always, senior editor April Green, Waldheim, ajar Why stutter there? I was about to say grown wall, which I think I did once book work as I once worked for a man named Henry grown Waldman. My first job as a professional, the time magazine. He was the head of the timing. Why I suddenly was turning you into Henry Brunwalde

who is the source of one of my favorite stories from the from the days of magazine You know what money was this rolling in play, so with time magazine have started, this timing had started this magazine called tv cable week which was open for it. Months and folded at a cost of fifty million dollars, and he cable week was based in white plains, which is about. Half an hour north of New York City by car. And grown deign to pay a visit to tv cable, weak. Which he did by taking a helicopter from midtown Manhattan, two to one white plains. And is as the system by which this bag Which is like tv guide was can be produced, showed its to be monstrously an efficient and and workable grumbled would

Therefore, all thirty minutes turned to one of his lackeys and said: get me my helicopter kissing he had. He had had enough. So an honour, not infant in this sin in connection with such a great man, yes, I think when you're angry with me are, you know like I'm, I'm I'm not being free should to say get me. My helicopter done. Ok, Also in Washington, possibly intermittently on and off the podcast. Do too the continuing work on her water, heater, Christine row, Senor Writer, high Christine very glamorous existence here and in his one room, schoolhouse Emma Jersey Associated Rossman, high Noah Tiger and joining us today commentary. Since commentary columnist, scholar at the American enterprises Suit Founding editor of the Washington Free Beacon, Matthew,

many high mad welcome back hello, all good beater that so you have a piece in the May two thousand and twenty issue of commentary now available, of course, on our website and commentary magazine dot com, where we give you a few free reads and ask you to subscribe how bitter cleaners and viral era- and why don't you tell people what you are opining about in this very fine piece, I will thank you. I guess my argument in this peace and the new issue- commentaries that both left and right are still clinging to the intellectual frameworks that they held onto not prior to

the corona viruses, I think, a still more in the left and that peace, just because you know that's my habit and also because it gets less attention in the mainstream media that I've just been struck by, for example, help the left continually views. Even something is all encompassing has grown a virus through the lens of race, gender class, and then you are on the right to you kind of sea. These fall back to a certain type of Kenneth again again ass. I grew just kind of reflexively against authority, which is a healthy instinct in some ways, but at a time This doesn't really kind of capture, I think all the complexity of our new reality. So the peace was written a couple weeks ago and obviously things have progressed oh you're, using a lot of examples in maybe not pre, total lockdown error of complain

that transgender surgeries are being delayed, and you know- and there should be more abortions, not less in there. And in this area, and that sort of thing almost comic in the mist Application of us into actual resources at a time when we are, of course dealing with twenty percent of Americans unemployed and six trillion dollars in new spending and and and FED liquidity reduce stave off a a man. Can and global depression, not just recession. How is that How is that expressing itself in the present moment would use exerted said that some of that stuff seems to have gone that The jet that identity politics science has has

instilled in favour of some other kinds of priors. Maybe yes, I mean I think, one waste the attention paid to the racial disparities in the in the deaths from covered nineteen and well. These disparities are clear and they speak. I think to one of economic and social inequalities, but there is kind of a you know. A lack of you know perspective in recognising that the virus doesn't distinguished viruses and racist and kills people of off enters I, though, does seem to be way have been heavily toward. Men, ended all races. So there is a headline that I came after. We put the peace to bed which appeared in the Atlantic monthly by April next candy at the M kind of the black nationals, Professor American University,

In the end, the headline in the Atlantic was stop blaming black people dying of covered nineteen and He had no effort, the only example he hadn t anyone doing this thing, which no one should do, but no one has been done was a chinese propaganda article, so it was on the thinnest agreed that he hung his thesis, which again came into this prior identity politics and its doing everything went race and racism. So many tat on this briefly in the peace and I wanted to tease- does that little bit because there's so much their early on

In this thing you began to see people when you called the Washington Post talking about Hyena. This profound cessation of economic activity is a really good for the environment and, of course, in others, the sort of Oshea you only see did not something to celebrate right, except you see plenty of people celebrating it. Guy follow climate writer Eric halt this whose really captures this I gazed at the most radical environmentalist left was really definitely celebrating the thing you know this is what fundamental change looks like, and I was saying I responded that that's pretty is right that the green new deal does envision a engineered recession. Only one that exists in perpetuity until you essentially re everybody who for them further the from the lives they prepared for into the lives that you prepared for them, and he said no This is not an economic recession and not precisely the same thing. It's de growth, as though there is a distinct in her that we should make, and then you had this continues. You had

Siemens bill we're interviewing a a climate expert who said quote. You know that he said that this is about us and time right. In the end, the experts said quote: we would to keep doing this even more and do it for the next thirty years to really begin to bend. The urban greenhouse gases gases in the atmosphere whose in nobody knows what I feel like they really have. On internalized, how catastrophic this event has been for the paradigm shift they're trying to sell here, while I think that's out of tourism in question that one of the reasons that people were treat enterprises because they understand that the products and they have ready, built you know articles, faith that they can resort to. You're dealing with something unprecedented so idea of saying you know what this is a good start. Obviously you know

world in which a fifth, a fifth of the workforce, instantly unemployed. Yeah, I'm in the regulatory there's a regulatory quality to this when people this sort of thing like when Dan Patrick, whom we serve, defended simple when Dan Patrick says you know like there are more important things then living that That's a revelation of become world view that a lot of people dont really share any more and therefore can beat exit dismissal, his his general approach to things on the idea that too, people on the left have been reverting to priors, I think, there's a there's another and and that this is just as this is a good begin there's another new tablet example, which is yesterday Alexandria, Cassio Cortez, said that

In the event of restarting the economy, low income workers should not go back to work by someone who let sheltering in place in a luxury apartment right at me, I said there is such a disconnected and who is in whose home district I might add is is also is during your ground, zero in terms of cases and mortality rates. I was actually struck by the contrast between what the environmental issue who nor you mentioned, have that this line of approach they ve taken verses. This kind of feminist argument there's one argument that I think is compelling for feminists to be making right now and that's that people who are at risk of becoming victims of domestic violence are at higher risk right now, because you combine having to shelter in place with your potential abuser, plus the these stresses and strains of economic hardship on top of that meat. That is a more high risk situation.

For a an unfortunate group of people said that I think, is one message that I wouldn't mind hearing more of, but what we are seeing, a particularly the mainstream, more elite publications are complaints about how men are doing enough around the house. I mean this is this: is this ubiquitous complaint of of women who want to see a kind of spreadsheet approach to marriage and partnership and this coming at a time when the virus is not behaving the way you would expect it is killing more men than women per se. Reason. Men are more vulnerable to its effects than women, so it to me it strikes me, as is proving very well with what you say in your excellent piece: Matt, which is the even when you when, when identity politics types try to retreat into their comfortable spaces, the virus is confounding a lot of their arguments, which I think should long term show us some. Some of the weaknesses of that entire

worldview. Well, you no matter what one other thing to to point out is that is that there are ways in which not it's not just priors but does go to profound philosophical, different between the right and left the United States, which most of us would have to say? despite art, you know our belief. I think the true belief that we know we are more divided than we have ever been and that the politics is more a pub part. Polarizing Parson way and even in a movie illogical way. Then it has, and then it is pro we ever been that that you know at root American. The american understanding of how the economy work somewhat freedom is an all that actually exists within fairly narrow band compared to a lot of other countries and how the real any illogical spread of humor kind is, but that you do.

We have this risk taker, verses, retreat to safety, divide right that serve them right believing in entrepreneurship- and Visual- is a man You know serve individual accomplishment tends to. Look at the world through the prism of you. Gotta. Take some risks too. You know to really make your markets to do not only accept things, but to do the things that will will make your country better at all that, and then you have the opposite perspective, which is that just society tries to make people safe, healthy and cared for, and that these are two very. These have two very radically different Will you call it of these perspectives leads to radically different understandings of what should

happen in a crisis like this. So you have said Conservative report, again, the ideological concern people saying were eating the heart out of ourselves. With this perspective, The world is so dangerous that we have to huddle inside and cower and fear, and then people. On the other side saying we we have to wait until everybody can be safe before we can even begin to think about. Resuming normal or ordinary life. Never that I think a real as expressed, I think, in the various approaches of the governors of see that in real time. The other examples you know stay like Larry, Hogan or MIKE Dewine of Republicans, who have kind of been much more uneven

yeah. Let's use cock a kind of the retreat to safety school. I want to add one more thing on the right. There is this: he no kind of long standing suspicion of elite canyon- and so there, you see manifest a kind of the year, the criticism about models, the he knows, the kind of the arguments from some quarters that, oh you know probably now we may have already achieved- heard immunity kind of some of the populations that you see on the right that well in s what's funny, they keep repeating these speculations, even though each one is found to be erroneous. But you know loaded. Death cannot be so high that something like that. I think that's a tendency on the on the right at this long standing, american right in particular, and in you you see that

through their clearly and in certain responses to the pandemic. So there's also I mean the right is not, as you say, immune to trading into its priors and I'm sort of suspicious of anybody who hasn't confronted least one of their ideological preferences over the course of this event, because it is so challenging across the board. I will confess that I think that some of my preference, It's like an eye by morning this the notion that the promotion of trade liberalization across the planet, which I think is a very valuable tool for the promotion of liberalization, broadly political, where members of liberalization, as well as the economic kind that is bad odor, at least for some time and well I've been on board with the repatriation of some national security related

we ve, actually capabilities from places like China, the notion that we should also think about pharmaceuticals and p p. That was my blind spot and all this stuff seems to have come to the forest That would seem to put the populist right in the driver's seat, at least for next for the foreseeable future in the next decade, how about this as a as another way of looking at it. So I remember, after after nine eleven there were two kinds of responses again, I think dividing curve providing a long ideological lines there people like mooring, Dowd and others, whose Spots was a kind of barely controlled. His area you now they're coming into the air? There could be I don't know what to do. You know these columns that had a kind of primal scream quality which you know from a distance. You can't really

Jack too. I mean that was. The purpose of the attack, of course, was to engender precisely this kind of emotion, but you know thoughts or I felt that it was unseemly because the appropriate way I believed adventurous. After nine eleven was with grim determination that you know something and attack. Happen on the United States that needed to be answered and that the people who had it actors needed to be defeated and, the emotion that this kind of fear was destructive. That, having that kind of focused concentration, seriousness of purpose, all of that from a perspective, looking now, you know almost two decades later. Of course, I think what what would you see in this, in this circumstance is a kind of weird miss out on the parlor right. We already have a solution. You know our science is so great that hydrochloric clerk will solve this.

For some reason that you can't quite fathom liberals leftist are against it. Because they want trump to be defeated or something like that, but they are against it. And so They are bad and then, on the other hand, you have the we have two stance: for two years until anything is resolved and they better fix this. They these pharmaceutical companies these medical establishment, that the left has done nothing for the last thirty years, but attack for its patients, this and inefficiency and terrible service- and all of that is now looking to this very world that they have trashed and in a kind of thirdly hostile way too believe me, which is this. You know that better fix this. They better come up with a vaccine and fast they better. We better have to

hundred million tests. You know it's part of the world, so terrible. We were so slow on tests. Well, you know the reason that the medical establishment or cdc, or something like that, turns out to a bit an efficient in the making in producing of tests is that it has this world has been battered for decades. The idea that, if they make what if they set one foot wrong all the weight of regulatory power and legal power, and you know criminal price. The commission will come down on their head, so they better be prudent and cautious as they move forward having a single standards and all of that- and we understand that to be sort of cowardly at a moment like this. But again I Thank you see this kind of emotional divide which is, I'm scared you fix it.

You don't find gonna hate you even more. If you don't. The submitted so divorce too, from kind of the day reality. I think I'm in when you use scream determination. That's kind of what, in the people who work have this the peace corps the essential jobs there going about their lives. You see these pictures of people in the New York Times when I paper. People going on the subway, our I see it every day, neighbourhood, its delivery manner, construction, cruiser long crews that are still going there going about their business the other wearing masks they're trying to,

assimilate the new circumstances, but it's not the kind of a panic or, and then, as you say, and almost resentful passiveaggressive demand that unless the typical stick scapegoats solve everything we have to rain indoors force for two years distant tariffs can. I just read a tweet. I came across just terms of Wet Christine was talking about our priors and all of this said, there's a british journalist of my very mild acquaintance named multi, a british american journalist who writes about theatre, did so me too stuff there at all this and but she's, mostly a theatre critic. Just came up with this, today, as you may know, a Shakespeare's birthday and

There has been a lot of talk about how Shakespeare ended up writing a bunch of his place during plague outbreaks that shut the theatres down in London and here's. What it's a slightly surprised that the BBC is education, section on Shakespeare and plague. Doesnt find space to mention that door. Self isolation. Shakespeare was able to write because he left his wife and Stratford to do all the child care Y see unpaid labour. Well in this, is that this is actually we ve been off. You know on our little group tat we ve been talking

a bit about unpaid labour, and I think it's true for men and women that this lockdown moment has highlighted the amount of unpaid labor it it requires not just to. If you have children to step in as their kind of proctor slush. You know homes, schooling, teacher, but also just the sort of data they suffer round the house that a vast number of people, if they are privileged enough to be able to afford it, have outsourced right. So there I think there was a New York Times or Walter you're article about you know all the rich people who suddenly have to clean our own homes and like this is this I mean you know if you're, if Europe pitchfork waving Bernie Sanders supporting you think a ha. Finally, they have to feel, though you know that the Clorox and their skin or whatever. But it's it's the idea that the point of celebrating Shakespeare's birthday should be too for men to acknowledge that Shakespeare wooden exist without his wife's unpaid labour

is exactly what's wrong. With this particular moment in our cousins, I mean you Shakespeare's genius would likely have emerged even if he had to do a little child care, and the idea that this is this has to be a zero sum game for that sort of celebration is kind of a little better aerobics lament when the president announced his intention to make basically make the plan a green cards tougher? It's an immigration ban, but it just making up the application for worker status more difficult. He wrote quote who the F do. You think is working on the farms to the president and the rights approach to this. The libertarian approached this is to make it easier for immigrants to migrate, trade in part because they have a lot of medical experience. My lot at the lot of our doctors and the people in medical field are immigrants who is their education abroad. So you know if the role

reverse the partisan rolls were. First, you think the press would be able to find, at least in english some rather sorted stereotyping in Mister works tweet, but we have not seen any of that from mainstream pressed by the work ethic Trump agreed with at sentiment right because, didn't you say something about exemptions for four: oh you have. There are far more exact farm workers in particular, so he you know he. He Umberto agree that When you do immigration bands, you then, of course, have to exempt everybody who gives it who vote for you from the from the from the ban, if they, if they need immigrants because, like another country, doesn't need emigrants, we have too much. You know we're just have too much too immigration anywhere. Of course, one of the things that happens when you have a massive economic downturn is that the immigrants don't come because they also here through the grapevine there's no work so

yeah. I can't live and work experience in a wave of immigration. The tempted attempted efforts to resettle in together, permits right now, you're fight. If I can just say one thing on this, though I do think this was a political boost by trump more than anything else, and I think the when you look into details the end, you see it all these exemptions and car about agricultural workers in that there's, some debatable how it is stage one pieces in such an you begin to see. This is a move on his part, I think, to align himself. A public opinion at the poles were quite striking in the USA today. Cool I cited lest we can count on us. It's a seventy thirty issue of American saying that immigration should be paused course did John points out paused anyway, because the recession

But there are those who think this was a moment for Trump to kind of costs is clearly public. Opinion is turning against his approach to handling this crisis. This is kind of a move on his part to the kind of deep remain in a kind of the centre of public opinion. So cannot we believe that out a little bit they're turning again to the approach of their turning against him, because what is his approach from I can now he is attempting to take them every side of every issue in order to align himself the Poles, as you say, and in so far as their strategic thought involved. If there is strategic thought involved too at least create the conditions where he could plausibly say that he was against whenever bad thing happened down the road at due to state level in Brazil. Improvisation right, I think one of the reasons that the public is disapproving of his thumb performance in this crisis is is precisely the kind of the inconstancy, which is a mean.

That is trying to a t brought his entire career. He has been in progress, improper. The Tory floats his trial balloons. I he kept gauges, reactions and his art is always louder than its by that work for him up until now, and I think I think it's not working so well and and and the public see through that, and so on immigration, at least in one case, and I think on China, to where you see this huge spike in in negative views toward China. I among the public, do these will kind of b the M that you know the likely to let the lamp

said he's gonna hang onto as he faces the scene of economic and political. They use them in the polls. Don't look good for him right now. You know I had one thing yesterday, you know I've been inclined towards a certain level of None of this is the wrong way to put it, but a but Anti Annie, tromp examine in the end the screaming every day about how these murdering people- and he had set his fault because we lost February and all of that, because I keep thinking. You now go back to January February the idea that he could have somehow lead the country through a more you know harsher response when the general approach in in the states that now hardest hit was to say that any effort to control or contain the virus was an active of of of. She'll injustice. Then everybody, to go to the Chinese, knew your parades and do whatever

they could to your room the sub ways do everything that we now know was really not good So I've been inclined to a certain defensiveness, but he said there is story yesterday that got my hat, up in a way that hackles are gotten up by Trump on the part of the people who really hate him, which is he's sick of being in the White House, and his staff is trying to carry out ways for him to get out more and go or go get out more nets like the hell with you, of course, you're sick of being in the White House. You wanna, know sick, be it a small apartment with with three children like You kidding me, I mean you, you, you can't stand you now being. Wrapped in the White House, are you crazy, entire nation is trapped, not entire nation? But you know like. Two hundred million people have been told they need to stay inside their homes and not go out very much too,

stay right. Where you are, I mean it's a gilded cage and the best of times here. Well, I beg you know it's not a page. You know it's it's a mansion with many rooms and the lot of outdoor space where he could run around like a dog. You know it's like This is insane, and so every now and then this is where you start thinking about you know: in what ways he is out of touch like. I think we have all everyone is rattled. The idea of twenties team, that he knows more than we do, and you know poles. You know remiss didn't capture his final. We know that so that he's got a feel for the american people- that's not like any by us as an all of that is true. But you know it is lost, people do lose it and and his own, the inconstancy that mass hugging about for a while seemed like

a kind of rational like he was. Representing us, because everybody else's bouncing around six. It's from Sunday? You know maybe struggle work. You know I don't know it's wrong. Saying that we need to get sorry would be great to go to church on Easter. You know all of that that in saying that, and then having liberal led opinion say he shouldn't say that it's ten but what a monster and yet based I really would love it if people could go to church on Easter. I thought that was a real thing like that, of course he would who wouldn't? If you could help yourself, but but when He starts doing this. It's like. Ok, I am banning all immigration and then it turns out. He isn't really bad and it is all obviously nakedly political, and he is a flailing all over the place. Any attacks, Brian Camp for saying, Frank Camp wants to open, Giorgio and brand camp is only following the logic that he himself laid out for days earlier, because I guess I don't know why Trump did it. I mean it

Who knows we don't know white Trump attacked, went, went like specifically in X. Solely to attack rank him for this opening of some businesses and in in Georgia minutes? One reason that first, I think that's been neglected in the coverage is remember. He didn't want came to him. Put loft learn their other threats. It up that I remember he keeps a grudge inside. You think I played some in in his going after camp it, I would. I would totally agree with you that for me anyway, the moment has been exactly this, which is doing the tweets with the whole a lockdown rebellion people over the weekend targeting the blue states. You know lip rape, Virginia Lip Ray Michigan

and then the forty eight seventy two hours later attacking a red state governor of for opening up too early a bit. It does it's completely incomprehensible and there's no kind of pattern, and when that that has helped, I do think that's kind of help them in the past, but in this type of environments. Clearly, not what you look for ITALY ship and then that I think, is why that the poles are judging is lying in. Who knows what that goes with it? environment, is gonna, be in in two weeks little on November, but I mean accumulate The result of all these foot lapses that he has at least some evidence on tape that he was for. Whenever worked against, whenever didn't, we

While it ran on helping at my that'll help, him against Biden is well right, we saw the times with today area. Three columnist say you know we should be giving Biden should be out there. Aren't you should be doing his own nightly. Press conferences is basically is, Trump is basically campaigning, but no is right have been if he is campaigning. It is kind of got a bizarre genius as a campaign tactic and at the same time that as bad points out it's completely, debilitating as a leadership policy making is I don't know about that? I've been, I think it's a very interesting point that he'll have tape of himself saying faintly of whatever it is that worked, and he will have set it On the other hand, he has just handing Biden a sheaf of opposition research right out in public, so vitamins laying it. When is it going to you shouldn't use it yeah not use it. I mean I'm not buys a very asylum media environment that you can also rely on two, not seal evidence that number one

saying is that when there are debates, let's presume there will be debates These will be the most watch debates in history. Crumple say I said this and Biden will say no. You said that and then you said that and then you said the other thing at a time when America is at its worst possible crisis Europe, flailing around like a little girl. I mean abides actually good. That, like remember him being an insult comedian against Paul Ryan granted that was eight years ago. We don't know you know how much on how much, on the ball, he will be but a trump is not easy. Trump is not hard to run against. If you know, if you have some sense of what it is that you need to say, which is. You were bad at this right, so you about this if he The thing that was gonna be very hard to say about tromp was that he was bad at managing the economy.

Three more months of this and saying you were bad at managing the economy is not going to be hard to say and I'll trump is going to say. Well, that's not fair fair. I didn't make the virus and then he's dead, because If he defaults to thee. I couldn't have I there was an you. What done smart guy done? Smart guy, that's kind of like that's where the Oh he's coffee, you know he doesn't let everybody doesn't take. Crap from everybody. Stuff will start to will start to pale, while his defensiveness Wilbur will be the constant, whereas, although it was always present when you return again Sillery, he was much more likely to be on the offensive and that's where he's more appealing I think to his base. Yet the defensiveness, which we ve seen bits of in these in these press conferences is, is not

killing everything I mean even even to his base. It doesn't feed what they, but they seem to me, and it is important to point out if we want to talk about those issues. Are one of the shed downshift into me. No premier, politics, that, as mats has the power, link is not looking good for him and where it's not good rim are in the states that he needs to win again to secure the victory him and he is down between six a points in Pennsylvania, Michigan and was content or maybe not Wisconsin, and he is he is down in Florida. Now. What does that mean? We don't know what it means. Kenny, pull back. Of course you can call back Will it be a close election? Let's presume it will be a close election, but it an economy in the world of the very on line right, there's a lot of democratic life. RO hysteria about how abiden is blowing it and muffling it, and I think

let me say that if Biden had listened to the very online and listen to Twitter, he would not be the nominee today if he had done what those people. Advised him to do through twenty nineteen. He would not be the nominee. He again, for them he read his own race, the way he needed to run it and presumably he entered people should be following the same practical approach. What is it that binding do say or talk about. There's nothing him to do is better for him to be silent. Now,. Have you like attack the present every damn EU tax them? When he asked the wedding, when he can Abe you have, you must have thought about what what Biden can do and why not that

Well, that there is an extraordinarily tough one I mean, I think you know we touch on a little bit before I think lines best bet is to talk about what he pow. He plans to in a build up of opposed virus America better than the one before then serve ray litigating or or litigating in real time trumps performance Cosette. That would get very tight, and you know, would give him some sort of positive agenda. Although it's it's, it's almost even there it's impossible to imagine what exactly he could propose. Let me look in conventional understanding of what's gonna happen in November. Look even even if you serve imagine that this most much of this goes away by the time election days, any conventional understanding would say that he has done for help

people who are listening to this undersea understand this like this is unprecedented, but people don't get reelected when the economy dips by twenty percent quarter before they vote like that's, so he hasn't he'll climb here, whether or not we cape liberals m identity, politics and and and and and think Biden this senile and all of that he, and to have the incredible misfortune of being president at the time of a terrible pandemic away. There may be very little that politicians can do to respond appropriately are adequately, and so this is a very Our situation for him and the scrambling is part of the evidence that it's a hard situation for him because he doesn't know what to say, and they don't know what to do when he doesn't know what attitude to take on any given day and he

five minutes ahead so Yesterday he was practically, I mean this was it was them The most naked example this his five during during the during his briefing, was practically begging, Voucher, Burke's. To say there were be no second wave that red, for you said the head of the CDC had Miss spoken right when you say as if you sell your long passageway yeah yeah, we allowed the yet no, Is there an cdc said it will be. The second it will be more complicated by the fact that it will be concur with flew so will be hard who tease out one from the other, not that, therefore, that there will be. A more brutal second wave, but from really kind of wants, due to two message: the idea that there would be there its extraordinarily unlikely that there will be a secondly, that all Well, I mean that's, it history suggests

it would be milder, but that's predicated on the history of their being more heard. Immunity right, cause, more people, get it in that first initial way. If and we're doing everything within our power to avoid that right now. So why would I think, whilst overbooking contain, while taking nineteen eighteen deed, the second wave has actually worse than the then the different than the first, but without the virus also mutates right, humming, that's that's another problem to save one thing, John on the politics I've been struck by even though the Look it's disapproving of his handling of the of the corona virus crisis and even though he is down to Biden, I two things. The first is

come points out that the race is exactly where it was in April. Twenty sixteen right and the second is his approval rating, his job approval rating had it does not actually collapsed. That's what I've been waiting for and that's when I think you can say he's finished, but it wasn't it's. It's fascinates right on a knife. Edge of work needs to be re elected, So this those two thoughts suggested reasons than I had and am not writing him off right, but I dont think as Ets as it would be reasonable to do at an iraqi people have been saying since the virus head, and it seems to me that we can't do I understand in my conversations with the american people that I talk to remind you know from my walked down trumps trumps. Support among his base is so ironclad

it is amazing and nothing, and even these new conferences with which I am I don't watch, but in the end where he is so in constant day that that's all just as written off as the media. That is why the media being unfair to him, but I ungraciously God help me in on your base, but it is fascinating to me that you haven't seen this kind of collapse right a minute and that's what use within tat what we witnessed with Bush in two thousand and six between two thousand six, two thousand eight was just like the cumulative weight of all the crises of the Bush presidency. Just resulted in having the lowest writing at the time of exit since trimming bright, that that is the matter happened. Remember even then, in two thousand eight Mccain, not granted not boy became was not Bush

right, but Mccain running as bushes. Just with the distributed, oh meltdown and Bush, I don't know where he was thirty percent or something like that got forty five percent of the vote and Trump got forty six percent. Forty five point: seven percent vote and twenty eight just got it distributed in this really perfect fashion. So, even at a time of extra very polarization when a candidates support totally collapses, still be guaranteed if you run at the head of a major party of getting around forty five percent of the vote The question is whether you live or gets fifty four percent of the vote, and the biggest worries I think is this. You do see the erosion of his support among seniors and that's, and so that's kind of the brightness of the demographic that is turning against him and that would be

Billy perilous for food for election day. When I said when I said this, that can a conventional understanding would have him as toast, but We understand that that conventional understandings, with a political figure like Art or not, they are a metric, but they are not the Doug defining metric all All I'm all I'm saying is that term the general opinion that somehow Biden is showing himself to be the Biden that couldn't possibly a trump is a is a misunderstanding of the moment and by the way Trump can have. Ninety five million friends on Facebook and binding I only have six million friends on Facebook or whatever or whatever it is yeah Biden, you have to assume will get forty eight percent of the vote. Say care: how binds digital outrages

and forty eight percent of all might not make you win, but Hillary Clinton got forty. Eight percent of the vote and Biden has not gonna do worse securely, not with vote harvesting in California and various others. Things are gonna happen that will make it easier for Democrats to run up. National numbers now again that won't make you win the electoral college. It doesnt heart. That's It's part of the problem here is that you know Trump drew to their damnedest inside straight in history by winning and at the condition for him, drawing to an inside straight after after four years, without without. You know a three point, seven or three point: five percent unemployment are just if you said look he's gonna go into election employments gonna be twice but it was at the beginning of the year. You would say: oh boy, that's bad It's gotta be way higher than twice at others,

if there's a red flag- and I think there I don't know what planet px record is- and I think it's great in Florida, but the pupil that showed Biden not doing so well not doing so well in Florida which could ports, I think, on the top lines with most of the public the state is that seniors are getting kind of shaky, and ten years ago that there is what what's the demo. What's his base. Well I mean his bases white. His bases is, is white males who don't, who haven't finished college Which is, I don't know if you close to him than Abiden race blood While we don't know that about Biden, I mean the notion that binding is actually uniquely of appeal to those people is a theme is a theory with very little support cause. You can't take vote democratic party, private voters and then adapt those to understand. What is a majority republican vote en bloc right

but anyway I mean just it's for its. You talk about retreating into priors. Getting to talk about. You know the politics of November is the very comforting all of a sudden. Now just add one other comforting, interesting pull from last week, which I don't think we tension and things namby people that found that the people most concerns among democratic voters. That an old white guy running and rather than a woman or a minority worthy white people, which was a fascinating, I'm sure you. You all saw this- that the the people of color voters really dont mind that biting his white and it does kind of just just to get back something. We ve been kind of touching on over the past many months that the online twitter sphere is not indicative of the average primary voter and hopefully that's true on the right as well, which is why, if, if indeed trumpets, is seeing some weakness in his older voter base, maybe out of fear of how they're gonna safely in helpfully get to the polls in the fall than that?

is that much more concerning his their grandma's, not generally on twitter, so I'm in a bit of a tiff over with some of my MSNBC colleagues over Stacy Abrams. Most recent comments, is very actively lobbying for the vice presidential slot, which is an interesting tactic. I don't know how precedent it it is cause it's it's I don't know ever seen anybody doing this nakedly as she is, but she was ABC the other day and talked about how she's a little concerned about how Joe Biden can attract minority voters. His strength among minority voters. There's no data to buttress that, so we can only Amazon, analysis, but more of veiled threat. When we read to me, would you out of the do you want me on in the outside or in we have plenty of data baseline?

what happened before you know, basically the primary no data has asked that he has a weakness among african american vote. Yes right, quite the opposite,. Of african american voters barely voted? anybody else you know, Hispanics end in Nevada voted for voted fur Sanders, because you know that there are specific circumstances, and that was a cock. Essen Pino Sanders got forty five thousand votes, or some all in all, but you know, Biden those into this with the kind of, port among minority with a kind of sick. Yes did support among minorities. That is everything that a democratic candidate needs to prevail in November. Question is if he does something to melt down.

Which is what stakes Abrams is threatening. Oh, it's a good two good base. You got there colonel agree with everything that is the way the language, like any other, be, is as this is definitely a bold move. Brochure mean: there's, there's vernal, there's a lot of resistance to that notion among people for whom Stacy Abrams would make very good vice presidential pick, it just seems there is very little explanation for why you would do and also actively probably makes her I'm a less attractive candidate if the first rule is do no harm holding it unto the head of the prospective nominees seems like a bad course of action. I do I understand this boom, except as a kind of species of. Twenty nineteen, the twenty nineteen New York City, publicity machine, discovering where twenty and twenty nineteen discuss

Stacy Abrams the way they discovered. You know air, sea and others that she is a have come reasonably close in a end up in a terrible year, firm Republicans, convincing people, falsely that she won an election that she lost never having won anything state wide and with people like you know, amateurs and governors who actually in one elections who fit buttons Tal criterion hours criterion, which is that that someone be a woman right. I mean that, as the that is the sole criterion that you I've been active you can, you can rattle off. Ten names were off the top of the head. Who are better situated at more seriously and more prominently in out. You know from a club which are to calmly Harris to Gretchen, Whitman

or to Tammy Duckworth Tammy Baldwin, You know I mean these: are all people in states that you know what twenty thousand votes will matter November, and I think if, if Biden can win Georgia here, doesn't need Stacy Abrams to win Georgia. If you, in Georgia, he's gonna win the election anyway, So you know he could pick. You know DUMBO to be as running made, and it would be fine. Well we'll be fine. No I'm say would be fine from an electoral standpoint. The vice presidential debate is going to be the most pivotal vice presidential debate in history by transnational debates, Micronesia of residents and the baby is does does at that moment, does MIKE,

these have to be heeded Malcolm X, with the honourable Lodge and Mohammed. You know you, might you know if you, if you ever listen to amalgamate before he got that disenchanted with them with the head of the black Muslims, Elijah Muhammad every sentence that he said when he would be interviewed, and yet he was just terribly compelling- would be the honourable age. Mohammed says that data. In the view of the words of the board of the of the Honourable Lodge Mohammed Elijah Muhammad. Ah, you know that was always how the sentence began bright and then he stopped can see disk the Lodge Mohammed wasn't everything he had wanted him to be and tense. That guy in these press conferences right, President trumpets told Us President Trump that has led us to this wondrous, passive blah blah blah well, in that vice presidential debate does does he continue with those that game

Why does he go okay? This is my moment to her eyes had bought for twenty twenty four, I better you know I better not as a president tromp has just done. You know like he needs. Day that will alienate some people that he would want to win over. Wasn't me rightly challenged on that very characteristic. Of his right. I mean, though, that the question will be The head is: is there anything that the president has done so in your time serving the his administration that you have had cause to disagree with have you voice this disagreement in also is people will will have to the imminent Albion pride had no I'll be in private right out. Yonder. Don't underestimate tenses civility to answer that question. Remember he impressed Trump the other day where these press cross conference with his non answer answer I think, to a to John Roberts that went on for five minutes and at the end of present trumped up said, while you'd be wet. Five minutes had a screen

let's just like an apple body

he is a very odd message- and I just have a say in the vice presidential debate thing or vice president at this is gonna, be an election about competence. Right I mean it's gonna be. How did you can see it already with policies attack lines and what violence doing on its little basement? Podcast is Trump trumps a week. President screwed everything up, it's all gonna, be trunk performance and an trump is now moving towards China, China, China, violence. We in hock to China, violence, we can't China can be so. I think the two lines of attack now and for so, if it's gonna, be I'm the competent candidate bite and is going to be no, I'm I'm the guy I've been in office before I've been in the vice presidential office before fifteen years, a government- I know the people on the person who's gonna, get this country

through this and then back on a stable footing, economically, ices not choosing as your vice presidential candidate, a person who I mean with no lost whose only known because she lost the election. Ah, I just seems to me to be an unfinished air, a modest ever you want. You want someone who, in this way, think women's now falling in the big stick. So you want someone who, like an image of confidence, if someone who do you know what no one is gonna, be worried about this pack and having written a book about a vice presidential nominee who or it a lot of people reported her lessons from that its don't do that you know it at that. Stacy ably right away. I just did well in closer club of shark and actually speak to personal experience yet and her huddle, I'm not that I read it accedes and regenerating headlines right now in

April in March of this and is harmless. Then I think you're, probably not a good peck right. I mean I think again. I think that damn Stacy Abrams, who was a very interesting person. You know their writes romance novels and various other things. She's an interesting object for contemplation and and unfortunately, for her. In my view, she was, she was seduced by her own line of web line of ball about how she actually won the selection, which I think is fine as a kind of opening bid. But you ve got a move on and then not become the face of sore loser them at some point or other enough people, I must say you know what I just. I can't I can't listen to this any more

I can't hear this any more you now you ve lost by seventy five thousand votes or something I can't stop telling me that all those votes were stolen. Like I understand, that's your thing and you really enjoy it, and I think that what report guns due to suppress votes is terrible, but you know can we. There's something else that you might be able to say, on these subjects. That would be a butt but before I go let's we should. We should aggression. Winners is an interesting yes, I think, because in terms of understanding how to play this virus politically, maybe were wrong because we're focused so much on young on the on the attack against her in this question of whether or not you overplayed her hand, but clearly she thought, following the Andrew Cuomo Model, that being tough in the in the application of the shelter in place, rules in Michigan

was the way for her to become a national leader on this subject and that, she, the question is we the very on line on the right thinking, well she really screw. You know she really screwed up here, because they were really gonna care in August and The governor of the one state that Trump really really really does need to pull back into his This is in response to. It was getting at it quite out of control in Detroit and and so one has to question. What did she do? Everything every individual, governor and was leader is being, I think, interrogated on a question it had. Were you doing everything you could possibly too one year, you Know- and I do think that there I don't think it's just being very online. That would lead one to criticise her approach. The heavy handedness is in response to you. It was getting at it

control in Detroit and and so one has to question. What did she do? Everything at every individual, governor and was leader is being, I think, interrogated on the question of had. Were you doing everything you could possibly too, and so this help some people like, I said, Huggins, and why I think it has helped Cuomo to the Greek as he seems in charge, while reasons it is. Has a commanding presents his has a lot of experience. So do you think I do think experience, counts in a way in twenty twenty that it did it necessarily camp before, which is that in the middle of the crisis, and it's not going to go away, will be still in it in November, you the kind of well, we need to think outside the box, and we need some kind of

Agents of disruption that that's that's still there certainly on the right, but I think for the kind of the people who will decide the election which are the do. You know that the suburban nights in these three, dates they might want someone here, who am I, who can? I trust to be reliable and- and in charge, and I am not sure that actually helps bite and all other much, especially when he gets under the new in the under the spotlight. But I do think it would necessitate someone who's come out of this so far with a pretty sterling reputation in or

something approaching, I really do think that to go to Christine openly, I my mind: copper Sharia is the choice not only because she can relate to personally. Not only did she had experienced Natalie Sheet Fit with binding on all the issues. I also think it to talk, but our favorite speculate speculative, the vice presidential. To me, I think she could needle pence in a way that others can it, because she has a sense of humour and remember, there's your cabin. I had a pal apologize to her remember from the hearing like she has a certain way: tat gap with it, but also a kind of our humor either she sarcastic and funny. I think she would. She would do very well

of course, that means advisable, reject my advice and taking Camilla Harris and our aid as a lot of trouble. I would say if you did that it would be. It seems to me that, in the absence of other of a choice that there was There were some sort of information to suggest that that there would be an x factor thrill to having said person. You know Oprah in going back to my do you know five year, but you know serve like flirtation with our approach. Something like that that you know club, which are debated nine times and never made a mistake. I mean every other person at her level, with the exception of Buddha, Judge.

Blue themselves up at one point or another in the debating process. Besides by and Sanders, and that was that, in fact paper. One weak spot as an as a candidate herself is now would be to her benefit in in terms of the people which is that she didn't stand out. She didn't, waves, she didn't she didn't, draw attention to herself witches which a sort of kind of You're talking about a button would need. I mean where I got witness to the fact that a whole bunch of conservatives are talking about her and very glowing terms here. If we lover chances are headed, the democratic base does not Well, I don't know I mean she, sheep basically came in force. I mean. Right I mean get out of a field of twenty two get a lot better than then

other, more famous people about me. I mean you didn't, have the moments she didn't have moment he did rise. You didn't stir things up: yeah yeah, but yeah, but she I don't really think she put a foot wrong and that's a you know that that in mats of you know a first do no harm category? That's that that's very big at it. It would say that a Biden is not as cautious as Hilary, so I doubt if he would make em you daddy would blow the pic as decide. Please Hilary deadened picking. You know in picking Kane there's a trivia question for next year. I see how many people in America can remember who Hillary Clinton's vice presidential pick was out doubt be good women. At least janitor in Virginia and knows how to make a tenable, at least in John K, in case you know was vice president with us, because he ended up having dinner with the child out of wedlock and stuff, like that,

I mean they give it that that was more interesting than you. Then you, then you might have thought otherwise utterly? I just think it's a you know. As I say, it's like the cup of the public may really enjoy this sweepstakes simply because it'll be distracted at least so Matt Continetti. Thank you very much for joining us. Today, everybody go to commentary magazine, dot com and read Matt's piece bitter clingers in the viral era, as well as the rest of the contents of the May two thousand and twenty issue and four Christine Rosen nor Rossman Remould. I'm John passwords keep the camel burning.