I'm David Brown and this is business wars. Vince make Man's Brad shhh aggressive management style help. The W W have now known as W W E fend off well funded challenge from TED Turner's, W C w back in the nineteen nannies. almost two decades. After the end of that fight, W W E was the undisputed worldwide leader and what big man refers to as sports entertainment, but the wrestling industry was too lucrative to remain a one horse, town for long billionaire, Tony cons, new company all

wrestling aims to do what Turner's, W C w never quite could become a sustainable, profitable, long term alternative to W W E. So far, so good all elite wrestling is routinely one of the top rated shows on cable tv, a big stars and deep pockets to wage a protracted war with the Mc Man family for more we're talking with Matt Mccarthy he's a comedian former writer for W beauty and the host of the we watch wrestling podcast we'll talk about how W w e has grown even larger thanks to the explosion in tv rights fees whose in line to succeed than spent man at the top of a company and if all elite wrestling poses a real threat to W W he's down it all

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Louisiana is where NASA and higher Ed partners build rockets that will soon put the first women on the moon is also where the port, system, delivers the most domestic cargo in the? U S and Louisiana is home to the best Workforce Development programme in that country see what Louisiana economic development can do for you visit Trinity, Louisiana dot com. Today. that Mccarthy welcome to business wars. Pay thanks! Ramey wow! You know is funny that we're talking about this issue, I will. Let me back up for a moment. I was talking with someone oh, but earlier, and I said you know I really like heavy metal music and is sometimes hard to explain to someone who doesn't get it. Why I love it so much and I feel like people who were involved in wrestling have that same issue. You know some people look right through it. They don't get it.

Other people are completely obsessed with it, and I'm wondering how do you talk to me, but when a party or people that you might meet, how do you explain? What's going on with wrestling and and and people's passion for? Well, you know they say for those who don't love it explanation will do those who do love it. No explanation is needed. The air, the Harley crowded somethin like that yeah. If I had to explain it, you wouldn't understand yeah, it's an acquired taste, but my explanation. is always very simply it's about the pursuit of justice. That's that's! What progressing is about that? The appeal is it's the little guy fighting against the big guy, it's the the good guy fight against the bad guy. It's this perfect world where we can actually live in a just world.

where there is justice plus adjusts exciting? It's it's every form of of entertainment at once. You know I mean if it it's athletics, its theatre, it's so opera, its blood and gods? Its comedy, I mean it's. Just there is room for everything in professional wrestling, its theatre without a forthwith that's what it really comes. I don't eat almost sounds like comic books come to life in a sense right I mean, because you have the glower, you have the drama you at you talk about the soap opera factor, it's just something that people can I think they're psyche into absolutely anything if it helps being writer at least I found it to be such because its understanding for wrestling is understanding storytelling here. You have W c w on top of the industry for a couple of years in the late nineteen nineteen and for

it had seen. The W W have could go under DVD, see w had more money, bigger stars and, of course the full might have TED Turner behind it right. What went wrong, as you understand lots of things, but ultimately there was. Mismanagement of money, no forward thinking creatively no forward thinking creating new stars, because, unlike comic books per wrestling, there is a finite lifespan to these wrestlers. You know the captain. America has been fighting the same bad guys since the forty right Superman convicts it's a mythology without an end pro wrestling. You have to create those new stars. It doesn't need to be complicated once you start

getting tens of millions of dollars a floating around with tens of millions of dollars worth of egos. Calling the shots that greatly and gravely effects your price. So I mean the thing that Debbie W F. Inevitably you you know now w w E has always had an advantage for better or worse, is there's one guy making all the decisions He has a lot of people around him. Vince again has allowed. How do people around him and he will, in the end whether the fans believe it or not? Vince will listen to everyone's opinion, so all of those things at once and then really what it came down to his may had TED Turner behind them once TED Turner. Wasn't, though, they alone void. Here you had people that were just business. People looking at the bottom line, didn't quite understand war too keen on their being wrestling on the station

and TED said as long as I'm in charge, I will always have wrestling on my channel and he wasn't a charge any more and that their China was the the undoing women's Debbie seed, everyone out a business, three million fans just stop watching, and I guess question is whether we are looking at something similar sort of happening in motor day. I mean there's an audience that will continue to watch W, w e lots of fan loyalty there, but given the dynamics of businesses change now you know make money from tv right. You don't realize much on fans Biggest demo is over fifty and an eighty w has a much younger audience. So what do you think that you're looking at as you look at the industry right now, after W W clothes, like you said there were people that that was rustling to them and once that show one off the air they stopped watching Vince

kept doing Vincent Show and over the last really twenty years there has been a the independent seem in wrestling. That's has been much younger, much more exciting. That Vince has not had his finger on the pulse of, and that is one hundred percent. What eighty w was born out of, I think Vince, and we some other people might be a little more focused on the lapsed fan casual fan, whereas what a w has latched onto is the new fan, let's face it. Folks, two thousand one was twenty years ago right address when W W. Why not a business so some eighteen year old kid he doesn't care about, Debbie, see W W W F and if he didn't grow up. Unlike the John Siena stuff in the last you know, fifteen years, this new product is what he thinks wrestling. Is

and like you said, I mean W E has a very loyal audience, but they are aging out right right. Success is never final. You don't, but at times it incorrectly. If, if you have a different take on this, it felt like Vincent Man Maybe you didn't take W c w seriously. As a competitor, I mean he let big names like HALT: Kofi Annan and MACHO man, Walker, the billionaire TED sketches lampooned TED Turner and a sort of may using his usual bravado in the media. That seems very different from the Vince Make man that bought up the regional territories in the nineteen eighties. Why do you think Vince seem to sort of take his foot off the gas? If that's it, that's the right way to describe it. He did because

Had such a head start. I think we're looking at history repeating itself whether hill admit it publicly or not. I think he does view other companies, no matter how big the hour as competition, but I think he also can suffer from a case of hubris and think that he's far ahead and well went off to worry about those guys you're all right that we don't wit, were not a wrestling company, weren't entertainment company there doing rashly like well Vince. Unfortunately, wrestling fans like watching rasselas right right right.

A lot of people focus on on Vance. But what about Eric Bush off? How do you see his role in the new world order? Storyline? That was his brain child, that supercharged obesity, diabetes, tv ratings and merchandising revenue? You think he gets enough credit for the the wrestling ward as he get too much uneasy. I think piss off probably gets the exact right amount of credit because he took some good ideas from Japan pro rustling from extreme championship wrestling. He played a little dirty against Vince, sometimes rob the w b we showed be taped. Eric would give away results on the show So he was very smart, but he had no endgame other. Then I'm in competition with vents, and I want to put Vince out of business and that's Et Cetera.

Play a little game ourselves if W C W had won the war instead of W w F? What do you think the wrestling industry would look like in twenty twenty one? It's tough to say, I think, there were proud to be a lot more smaller groups, because I think W W probably would have put itself out of business as well. It's it's one of these things per wrestling is an art that belongs to the people. You know as much as Mr Mann likes to think that it belongs to him it doesn't. It belongs to the people who love it will have to watch it new Lovett, watching it so much that they actually become pro wrestlers. It's just one of these things that they did

can't hold down, and it's always one of these things that will always have a very you know. Do it yourself attitude of like kids like we don't need your permission to be wrestler? We can do this in our backyard. I think that the playing field would actually probably be wider, because I, I truly believe of W W had won. It would have continued to implode and then. I dont know that it would go back to a regional thing, but a very well might have because in a lot of ways the independent companies are just the territory's all over again because they don't have national tv deals in and they kind of exist unto themselves taking the clock back just a bit it a kind of received wisdom. I guess among people who really follow the wrestling industry that the wrestling more than eighteen. Noughties was a kind of golden age for the business and that W W product is actually better when they,

have competition now you're, a writer W w e during a period of time after they purchase Tubby, see W and they didn't really have much of a rival for market share. What was the feeling in company. During that time, was there an inkling that maybe one day some billionaire might try to make a run advance or what what? What was the scene like, not internally, but I certainly was already going to a lot of really exciting indy shows and thinking there miss. The boat on the cutting edge of wrestling right now, and I think internally, the feeling was a little stagnant. I mean the John Zenos on top, they hadn't created a lot, of new stars to put against him or to take his place, and I remember somebody who had worked there for a long time even said that the way that the company was an I'm talking about two thousand twelve, let's say it really reminded him of around

the time when doubly see w is starting to come around and start kick in there, but a little bit just because there was a shift that needed to her and in the creative direction of W W E. That hasn't happened. Yet and then the problem was, as there was no dummy, see w to force their hand to go and that new direction. So I Hopefully, a w does force of inspect man to rethink things, but the business as such that he's already making all the money he's going to make. They had. I mean two thousand and twenty was a terrible year for a lot of people, but not Vince Mcmahon. It was the most profitable year they had because the deal's were already in place. His his hands are tied to giving the fans what they want. Where's my order where's my order, where's my order break free. from customer support- monotony welcome to enter com for customer support. The business,

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members can try audible, plus free for thirty days right now, visit, audible, dot, com, Slash be w or text, be W. Two five hundred five hundred again, that's audible, dot com, Slash be w or text, be W. Two. Five hundred five hundred Rage argue with that Mccarthy's comedian, former rider for W w e and the host of the we watch wrestling podcast. What what's this company gonna look like Eventually, when dense steps, I'd? One assumes that's going to happen at some point. He might. Finally, tyres soon. His daughter Stephanie, taken on a bigger role. As a company spokesperson, you get a new president and chief Revenue officer Nick Con he's been said to become a big voice behind the scenes, perhaps being groom to replace fences, see.

I dont, know events as a member of the inner re, but I'm sure he's familiar with the phrase from my. Cold dead. I see that being the only way that Vince will step down is if he is stepping down into his coffin, but when that does happen, I got to assume that triple age, Paula back his son in law, seventies, husband will take over the creative side of things and, like you, mention economies very you know I've heard good things. You know he runs. The investor calls he be seems to know what he's doing. Perhaps he will take the boy the side of things- and I think Stephanie might be the public face of the company, but I don't know, I think that Vinci's egos big, he wouldn't want somebody to run it after he's gone and he might just have something in place where it's like look once I'm gone the

penny cells to whatever meter conglomerate. We can get the best deal friars blow it up and then well whether he's conscious of it or not. I could see Vince having that level of an ego as if to say, no one is able to do this, but me, and once I'm gone the company I will. I will so help me- God bring it into the gates of hell with me off when I think, a sort of fast forward. Twenty nineteen someone finally did decide to enter the ring and challenge W W. We were talking about tony con son of billions shod car, no relation in it. It was the launch of all elite wrestling and it has, I think, he's probably safe to say, rocked the entire industry. There is a lot of scepticism at first, but a p. W draws millions of fans to their weekly tv

cast on tee in tee, and course no one needs reminding that's the same network that Council W C W wrote their deaths. Aunt is eighty w broadening the wrestling audience. Do you think we're or they may be picking up disgruntled w c w fans who don't care for W W ease? Shall we say less realist. product they might be. I think really what they're doing as they are creating new fans and the thing that's very interesting with a w, especially their ratings. They I have a lot more households with non fans that will watch with existing fans witches. I think my assumption would be that's because and I say it's it's a husband and wife and the wife's, like our God, he's, got resting on again husbands

none at all. This is different. You might like this and they sit down and watching like oh yeah. This isn't like that. Other wrestling showed you're right. It's much more action driven. It's me, much faster paste yet longer matches their there's a little bit more consistency to the stories unto the payoffs, even the look of it, the way that the cameras present the show the way that the camera work in an it and it's not because of undoubted camera people a w b. We don't get me wrong the direction they have chosen of some of these- things that they do a lot of the shaping of the camera lot of unnecessary zooming in on things so most nauseating at times? Eighty Debbie does none of that at the same time, though eighty w didn't have writers on staff. Right I mean con apparently, or at least allegedly does all the writing himself, and I wonder if that's a positive or negative for this So far has been a positive, I mean they're. There have been a few talking segments on it,

w that have meandered that probably could benefit from a script by think having a script. Isn't the problem in and of itself problem is that there is no wiggle room when you get a script from vents. Evinces like none of this is who you are. This is how you say it: Vince is willing to collaborate, but at the end of the day it's gonna be his decision and if he has an agree with you, you know your talent, you're gonna go out there and say what Vince wants you to or you might be out of a job or even worse. You might still have a job as convinced won't like you, so it's not like these creative types are behind the scenes. Moving and shaking things anyway is ways what what it says. No, not at all it's it's it's! It's any other tv riding job. The show runner makes the consequences. The show runner. You know you can pick a thousand terrific jokes, but if Vince doesn't want to hear it, it's no different. Then if you know, when a mark, Brazil was

running that seventy shower or whoever the enemy. So far to you. Do you think, a p w learning lessons from the death of W C w or are they repeating some of their mistakes? Her is just everything everything green light, overlay, w I'd know. I think that they very much, I think Tony has very much learned from the death of Dublin W. I think Tony's also learned from being a fan and being a fan of what wrestling is, especially over the last twenty years. It's just so many bull, they hear wrestling and they think Debbie W E, whereas a fan who can t get to discuss that there is a lot of different things that are pro wrestling. You know it be like of Basque and Robin was like. We have chocolate an vanilla it's just there's there are so many flavour is out there that are just not be

offered up, so I think that it seems like Tony is a student of both on screen and offscreen and so far I've. You know, as a fan, I very much enjoyed a lot of the decisions are made, what he knows panda is forced both W w e and eighty w to suspend live event during an that's custom, significant sources of it when you were talking about earlier, how w w we had a little coasting power because they had the contracts in place in all that, and so you have. That in Greece there, even though the eighty double is one of the top tv series on cable. Every week the revenue isn't anywhere close to w w we could. They have those deals with Fox and Comcast universal billions of dollars in revenue over the next few

there's a p w tv deal with Warner Media's up in a little over two years. I wonder: do you think it's possible? They could maybe get somewhere close to W W Mega dollars once they have to renegotiate that contract or no, I don't know maybe, but I don't know- I think, events is the established product when they hear wrestling, they think W e, so they think vent and Vince has done a very good job, portraying him self as the only one who knows how to do this, I think also what helps w w e is. They got into the streaming thing before burying they had the road network and they have a hundred thousand plus hours of content. That's the kind of I rarely that accompany that wants to get into streaming what salivate Asher Thumb Sir

If, if tony car I mean this is pure speculation, but if you wanted to buying up libraries of smaller independent companies may be places that has some of his top wrestlers came from. That would be interesting to be weighed abroad things, but Vince has a huge headstart and that's the bottom line. I dont know what eighty w can do to start watching that, but look I mean it's, it's a ratings game and evolve a sudden Tony starts getting. The younger richer demographic to watch his show, then he's got a licence to print money if they somehow step into the next hot star. You know your next stone cold, you Dwayne Johnson. While then the gloves her off How did you get into this by the way that in wrestling, it's also my early

memories are being in. I was definitely too old to be in a like I remember that's my memory of that, there was a rail at least on the bed and accept setting an earth. My my older brother. the tv auntie said, Matt, look it's wrestling and it's just been a love affair. Ever since, maybe once I hit high school, I was like. I should put this away for a little while, and then by the end of high school it had blown up again and then I never looked back. I just it's. Nothing has grab my attention more by. some balance, we ve been talking with comedian informer, w e writer, Matt Mccarthy, you can hear him every week on the we watch wrestling podcast wherever fine podcast are served bad thanks, so much for joining us on business hey thanks for having underworld. I time

on our next episode: tech, industry, titans battle it out to determine who will control the rapidly expanding but volatile food delivery. App business, from wondering this is episode. Seven of W W S verses, W C w for business works. If you like, So please give us a five star rating in a review and be sure to tell your friends followed this wars on apple pie casts Spotify Amazon, music, the wondering after wherever you're listening right now, listen ad free I joining wondering plus you lost. by some links and offers from our sponsors and the episode notes, supporting them helps us keep offering our shows for free and other way. You support. The show is by filling out a small survey at wondering, dot com, slash survey and tell us which business stories you'd like to hear I'm your host David Brown Lorry gallery produce this episode. Charan low is our senior pretty surrender, editor edited and produced by Emily Frost, designed by Kyle Randal Hour, or so

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