And so from comes and goes her. I see everybody around me as lie in about thirty percent of the time and it seems to be effective around that up to seventy see what happens. hey. Welcome? This is the best Shapiro show Sunday special. We have as our special guess this Sunday, Scott atoms he's the creator, Gilbert and also the other, a win bigley. So you go check that out we'll get into his book and his theory, the president. Is, in fact a master communicator in one. Second, first, we're gonna talk about the fact that you were gonna die. So here's the deal, you're gonna plots areas to it, feel that in your marrow right down the bones and now look at life insurance, because if you really understand the unit, I then you know you need life insurance, because otherwise you are going to leave your family bereft now, a lot of people don't have life insurance because kind of hard by yesterday, Now what you need to the research to find the best quote and hope you don't gets

and along the way. It's not a good way to shop for anything. So policy genius made the whole process a lot. Simpler, Halsey Genius compares quotes from the top life insurance companies to find the best policy for you. It takes it. Couple of minutes to get a quote, that's it, and if you don't know the first thing about insurance, if they're all the tools you need to get up to speed, learn the difference between term and whole life insurance, Kaliko how much covered you need and be sure you're making the right decision. In fact, over four million people use policy genius to shop for insurance policy, genius doesn't just make life and that's easy. They also compared disability, insurance and home insurance and auto insurance. If you care about it, they can cover itself whether you know a lot about life insurance or nothing. At all start you're such a policy genius, dot com and just two minutes you can compare, quotes, make them, One decision for you and your family policy genius is the easy way to compare and by life insurance or Scott thanks, so much for stopping by well, thanks, Roman really appreciated. So, let's start off with this, how did the creator of Dilber become the Trump guy totally accidentally arose, one blog post and which I I thought I saw some some skill in him back and twenty four,

then that people were noticing. I thought he had a persuasion, talents that were unusual and I wrote a blog posts called clown genius and it was usually viral and I thought well all right, one more thing, and that was viral as well, and everything I wrote about Trump got more traffic than anything else I was doing, which is the same experience of every other person in my top right at the universal experience. I thought it was just me, but it's so interesting I can start doing. I feel I'm actually addicted in some way. Not politically did you end up it the point where the left now considers you a trunk, and even though you consider yourself me talked about in the book the fact that you're pretty liberal on a lot of major issues- social stuff and then the big stuff- I don't understand you know- What's the best trade deal with China will follow, you know how to do. Does anybody really know

but on the little stuff, like you know, and gay marriage. Yes, you know: should we shall we have universal Healthcare, I'd like to see it, I just don't have to pay for it, so I'm sort of a liberal with an economics to Greece so makes me a hybrid and yet the fact that you sort of considered trunk to be an actual good communicated. Let everybody to believe that you are deeply embedded in the right now and that you are in fact president trumps number one proponent. I call myself a supporter, but I also call myself a supporter of every sitting, president I was in Obama supporter primarily I'd one issue with him, but I support the president in general. Was one issue with a banner so about originally said, he was gonna, let the the weed business in California alone and then the states alone, and then he got in office that he changed his mind. Now that would have been ok, whither reason now, here's my reason I thought about it here is that new facts.

Without a reason, one must assume their some going on and without a reason you have to assume is bought right now. If he had explained. I would certainly accept the explanation if it was anything reasonable or without the explanation. I consider that a removed from office can the situation. Ok, let's talk about you trump theory, so you saw it became famous an interim circles, obviously you're always famous before that four Delbert everything else they do, but he became as became famous and sort of political circles for taking this peculiar view in twenty fifteen at president, Tromp was in fact a communication genius that he was actually terrific at this. In that everybody who is out there mocking him and thinking he's a fool that we all had it wrong. What made you think that President Tromp was a genius, a communication for I've. I've got a background as chauvinist there was a train hypnotists that my twenties I ve been studying. The ways of persuasion for decades as part of my work, so to be a good writer? I learned how to add a word thing.

Had a new marketing how to do sales and negotiate. These are all related topics that we look at Trump he's gets is, firstly, wrote a book on negotiating, so we should be sort of orbs erratic you added, but but even if you just brand yourself as the negotiating person, it attracts that knowledge to you over time, so it is in all. In all likelihood, he knows more about negotiating than most people on the planet. Is it's an interest and he doesn't want, but he also this this weird experience as a kid so when he was in church that his family pastor believe was Norman Vincent Peel, the the the author who wrote the power of positive thinking, which in a sense is a persuasive in

Bible for people of those times and it was about a use, optimism, Ascensional, he'll paraphrase too much, but but tat. It was only the think. Your way into a better situation. We see him modeling there all the time. I don't think it's a coincidence. You know if you sit in that church with someone who is considered so influential so persuasive. This is normal Vincent bill. There was actually accused of being a hypnotist in his day. He was so persuasive, so I think Trump comes by its honestly in the sense that he's been around it and then he's also developed it over his career. But beyond that, I noticed a lot of specific technique that you would notice if you don't study the stuff to what we summon the techniques date.

First from daddy, you did you, you think president was using, so the wall was sick. The easiest example visual persuasion is the most powerful. If you had a concept, let's say you said well, there are too many people coming across the border are right or crime rate is up, five percent or whatever you're gonna, say concepts, don't persuade you show a picture of a wall and people wanted or don't what're. You show a picture of a caravan of people coming in people, say that's immigration. Now I have a visual image. You, your watch, that the president does visual imagery so consistently compared to anybody else in the game is just the most visual thinker he's simplifies simplifying, is a hugely important politicians want act like that. Are the academic, the Smart One, the lawyer in the room, so they're they're they're impulse, is to get a little bit more complicated than the people there talking to member chump was marked for what they say. It

or their sixth grade vocabulary or something like that. But if you talk to anybody who is an expert in this field, they'll say: what's the audience? Ok, he's talking to the audience in the way that you talk, people who are operating on that level? Do you think that when he's in private he talks like the british professor, Suddenly he sounds like you know, Exactly sounds like I, on her Sally behind closed doors. Several ways. I got to meet him in the way we are shocked by his mellifluous British accepted the British accidentally through it It is exactly the same person just relax version room. Other measures, luxury covered with an early relying relax their I'm. So the August that that is one of the questions is how much this do. You think I mean look is obviously a guy who gets his message across in unique ways and with a unique sort of appeal,

How much of this is conscious and how much of this is just natural? By imagine this is instinct and how much of this is planned? I think he would say it's it's something natural that he sort of just picked up, but he either has a using instinct or he's learned more than he remembers learning, because his technique is so consistent and it's just nobody in the game is is magical now. The other thing he has is his willingness to do things that would be bearing to other people? You know his willingness to go outside the box and take the risk Sophie add his gigantic personality, with his willingness to break the edges on everything almost everything? Every tweedy does has a little something wrong with it and what I say wrong. I mean perfect in a wrong in exactly the right way. There are even even his famous stormy Daniels or on earth faced with so are you

we'll consciously pick something that will make you obsess on it, because it's the error that makes you focus your brain is designed to flush out. All the stuff is normal and doesn't matter. When I, when I leave this room- and I remember the other scenery or anything or remember, just the key things and he's just great making- you focus on the key things that make them making you think about what he was you to think about better than anybody else. Then what one of the questions that I have is whether this is a bit of an unfair survival thesis. The reason I ask that is because, at the end of the book, you have an appendix resale here, the things that I think the president from has said that are just brought leads: I'd buy Charlottesville. You talk about some of the other things that you think that the OECD Access Hollywood tape on which is before who's running, but is not a great thing to say and in how do you decide prospectively? When you see something the President says, is this an active, communicative genius? Or is this an act of complete and pure idiocy, because

there's a very thin line? Sometimes residents answer. So is the perfect question and is the reason back and twenty fifteen I said clearly and often I said this is often publicly as I could. You won't be able to tell if I'm guessing. Luckily, unless I tell you this is a prediction: I'm gonna tell you the tools he's using as he uses them You can follow along and I predict you'll win the presidency back and twenty fifteen because of the tools that not even because of policies or anything else, and so exactly to your point, if you can't predicted what is it right? The hours just do your describing the best benefit almost any theories of the past it indeed when Hillary Clinton lost. I think how many reasons did CNN Prince the next day. He just dozens of reasons. Well, here's a reason. The years the reason she did this wrong, so you can fit any series the past and that's why I was so

asked about saying: I'm predicting this ok. So what did you? But when you predict Jennifer for twenty twenty, since you already have you have one data point that is in your favour exiting the one election. So then, one data point in your favour way, Do you think happens? And let me point out that I also predicted the North Korea situation a year before it happened. So I was predicting for the same reason that trumps skill set would be uniquely perfectly suited for the North Korea situation and so far as will he like is moving in the right direction. We don't know, but everything looks positive, my back to twenty. Yet what twenty two I mean that one is is tat. I think we need a little more data before I had you that what came to be fair just because we don't know like that, it's there's there's not enough information. Yet whether this is just too pushing off play by the North Koreans or whether there secretly developing anything or whether anything has really happened but enable of thermonuclear mountain wells but you can see some things that are really positive. For example, apparently they reduce their internal propaganda, and that would be the first thing you look for

see if it's real because they don't want they don't want to reverse course, on their internal propaganda and then have to reverse it again. Let me why would they do that? They would just keep it the way it was so. Those are all positive signs and there does seem to be that the president has a personal relationship, that might be. The key seems to me that what the way he played it was a year, the opposite of our didn't play before he started with the way, the boss, Jim Jargon and said: let's go, let's talk less show you some respect. Let's make you a player. Who is the own belongs on the stage and then we can negotiate as sort appears. Not really Gabby appear with the United States, but at least in terms of respect- and that was probably a key thing- probably also allowed Kim Jong going to say I

work with this guy, and if I give up some things, I won't necessarily be vaporized. So there was something about terms willingness to talk to anybody which is often criticized for that is like a superpower. You can talk to anybody, you, can make a deal with anybody if it's the best interest of the country. That is a wildly powerful thank giving them in cases where you have replied your thesis, where maybe it? How did you have a perfect record? In other words, since twenty fifteen I've ever they wrong? I, yes, so their third. There are times, for example, trying to guess the vice President pick that was over each because really to make their backyard after know about personal chemistry. You'd have to know the biographies you'd have to know the secret vetting information. You can't really bigger vice president from this distance, but had I known that might pence was even on the short list. Is the perfect choice for vice president, as he sort of e the bad version of the president, the boring versions,

started with strong and you remove everything interesting about him. Would be. My parents and I like MIKE Pence right, there's nothing because my friends, but all of us all the fun the interest, the thing that makes use the president and you can look away, even if you hated we're love of all that stuff is sort of missing in my pants was a top rate politician. You just doesn't have the stuff, the treasure so back to my question about twenty twenty you're looking forward a couple: the years here and obviously the pollsters are take. Fifty fifty on where President Trump is at this point cause he's writing kind of where he was expected to be below fifty percent, maybe a little bit above, whereas Maccabees forty six, forty seven in some of them. Do look at any the Democrats who are out there and say this one is a particular threat to President Trump nope. I have at this boy rosy. Anybody would be a serious threat from all S. Close

yeah we have to see it. I got to see her in action a little bit more on one slash three of our running for presidential you're running for President kind of basis, but I think she's got the tools and that doesn't mean she'll come close if, if things keep going the way they're going well, it take for the fact the fact that there was reason bore the said, healthcare is the number one issue is the number one issue, because he is due. So well on other big issues: right, ISIS, all fear of their lives, North Korea's looking good economy. Looking good so

are just rose up. He needs to do something about that, and this is my left, leaning part of me here. I think, there's probably a though I think there's way to address healthcare it. The bill gateway bill Gates recently came out with a set of ideas for dealing with climate change. You don't have to believe the climate changes man made or anything else about it. His idea was to create a portfolio of start ups and innovative companies in shine. Attention say. If these, if these companies do what they're supposed to do, is really can make a difference to the climate, you could do the same thing, a route that was called a republican system for lowering healthcare costs. You condemns what I call the president's portfolio, just a spotlight, not any government money, but just saying these companies are working all that on all the parts of healthcare that, if they succeed, would dramatically lower costs and thus that's the whole game right you're not gonna, get to universal health.

In this country without dramatically finding a way to lower the costs and constantly regulations, could be dangerous. One second only talk about ten of the forty Magda Magda underwater upside down hungry hungry hippos of it all one of the things I ve spotted and critical. Your twitter following is you'll tweet, something on saying that the president has really thought something through and done something brilliant and everybody comes on it with both feet, whose in sort of the present from an club it, because in that this is why it becomes sort of the poster boy for that. The programme movement, even though you call yourself a supporter of the presidency, we have supported every other president. Do you think fit? People are sort of straw man in your argument a little bit online on Twitter, because then that's the virtually everyone. I see it's, it's sort of like the bill. Mitchell's of the world, tweeting you out and going This is what I've always been saying. Everything the man dies just pure genius, so some of it is certainly over interpreting thing. So common thing that happens now, maybe every day is all get at least one tweets from some

you saying here it is again the thing you predicted came true, Look I know I talked about. Utterly predict that quite that way, but you know people are starting to you. I guess confirmation. Bias is just a hand if they think I've been accurate before they just think it's. It's continue to happen, but yes, there's absolutely a certainty that some some number of things I've said all this is good technique and it's gonna work, the some of them I miss diagnosed, but I wouldn't know which ones you ain't. So I guess the question about new president transfer of skill set in doing all this is, if he's really obvious question is, if you such a great communicator, you asked the popular vote by two point: five million. He one in three states back mindful of eighty thousand votes, the number of basically the allotted to him. Folks, you say that

didn't from swept the country did unbelievably well in consolidating a movement, those same people who make fun of Hillary Clinton, saying what he visited, Michigan her Wisconsin once you would have won, but assumes that it should be done that you would have one, which is to suggest that she, you know, actually blew it more then he wanted button in this book. You really make the contention that he wanted. She didn't blow it if that's it. Such a great communicator. Why is he stuck at forty to forty three percent? Why did he when forty seven percent and there in the popular vote, is opposed to this being a sort of over what we ve seen great communicators in the past have been a lot more popular go slightly. Economy depends on you measure things. If you were to major Trumbull on dollars, spent per vote best ever I don't know if that's true, but I'm sure that's class, slowly best ever certainly modern history, if you look at where he started his popularity within. Let's say the Republican Party on day, one five percent, ten percent its now. Ninety

So it's nine times bigger than it was when it started two years ago in acting president by yes. Well, and winning the nomination like Iraq, Emmy get Passer oppose. Amendment has been slightly success, make sure you're sure. So if you look at that- and I would say, he's probably influenced more people- deterred from now liking him liking him. They may be anybody in then that frame of time you know, maybe Obama, is he a sort of phenomena, maybe Bill Clinton. But it's rare air that you can turn that many people in that length of time and now he's going for the hard core right. We don't know if you ve ever make a dent in the Democrats, see the real haters. What you're starting to see people say you now

I didn't like him, but I should like the economy like home, but we sure seem safer from North Korea. You know I don't like those judges necessarily, but there are qualified. So you see that kind of talk to some of the theories date. You ve heard- and I am I'll admit Emma proponents of the theory- that What you know the galley brought the dance is not necessarily the one that you leave the party with the fear, the president, meaning that what got you to be president, is not necessarily what keeps you being president that people expect a different thing in the office than they expected getting to the office and the skills that may not be directly applicable in terms of communication strategies. I've suggested that you know some of his.

Tweets outweigh the benefits and when it comes to our or when he goes on from verbally, and he any makes reference to a congressmen body slamming someone in the middle of arguing jobs, not more than that. This sort of stuff hurts him that in his veins, I've also argued his is most ardent fans. They dont care nearly as much of our policy. As about those tweets like that stuff that they like the most is the affects. The effect is what is attractive to them, not the policy. He condemned the policy on side of the roads records of the time. You should make this argument a little bit in terms of a moderating is policy, but they stick with the effect. Do you think there's a point here where He actually does have to change how he communicates in order to reach that middle cork as its basis there, but every time he says whore. Face is running any one of them, the middle. By going or space about somebody, he stopped Belarus could well be the fun part about this. This. If you you just go back in time and remember how we felt about these tweets just two years ago by the loved him. I hated him. How did you feel about these tweets

your hair caught on fire like yours, like you, if you loved me like don't do that? Don't do that and if he hated and those like, you will look what you ve done now and now he he tweets horse face about a porn star that he was the allegedly go with and the entire world one horse face. I can see it, you know you you'd have to you would have to agree that the level of the hair on fire went to maybe a slate erode tingling on the scope and in here the ability to just make us get used to it. But the inevitably inured us, I mean that there is no question after this many levels of of acid on the skin, we develop this further by certain thickness of skin but I do wonder. Do you think that Bolivia getting somewhere out more complete and let the I think, there's a portfolio affect here, there's a diversification? He throws out a lot of stuff if you were to go back and say I during the campaign these ten tweets.

You have done these ten tweets. Mr expert political person where you're talking talking to and the export was now now I will. I would not have denied these. These are all mistakes, but probably now that we have the benefit of watching him when probably two or three were a problem and that seven just fired at the base made a more interesting collected energy took, took attention away from his his rivals, but which are the three. Could you have picked them in advance? Its hard. So I think that we have to be a little bit humble about whether we can look at his tweeds, the goddess here and we didn't recognize which were good or bad. Then there suddenly, we have developed disability that no now we can do now is present, and now I could tell that's a bed with that little hurt him another. Some, the even I say the same thing I go in the example you gave you talking about physical confrontation anyway, is probably just a bad idea, but I didn't become president and I'm not sure I would have had the time

I want to do it. So I am. I always keep that little bit a doubt, the maybe just talking tough, maybe being the toughest guy in the room some benefits that are not immediately obvious and I think it might translate to a lot of different fields that he's just the tough as one, and we feel that we always feel his toughness. It just comes out in every way help salad, you feel in the very meaning. Is this theory good until it isn't so he loses in twenty twenty. If the bottom falls out on it, and it turns out that he has the lit, it seems to me that the american public could have reactions. This one is exactly what you say: witches were inured. Did they sound? Had been turned to eleven, and so our ears have adjusted now to the sound, and now we can it be. Heritage is white noise. In the background at this point I love them. They run around their extraordinarily loud and seven thirty, and I say you need to go to bed now. If you,

run around Armstrong really loud and it seven hundred and thirty, and I said you need to go to bed now, because if you don't I'm going to go start drinking, and is it possible that the american people just there's a sort of feeling of return to normalcy that that kicks in, in the same way that there was wrongly with Jimmy Carter? the after the wall of years or with Harding this Wilson years new world we live in. I think, there's addiction this going on on the people who love Trump, that the Is an addiction thing going on on the people who love Trump, that that, and I would say that I'm one of them in the sense that if a good tweet comes out that I know is going to make people angry, that's a good day. For me, I actually I can feel it life physically. I can feel the joy- and I know that you know sixty million people or giggling at almost precisely that almost precisely the same time all over the country, but looking at their phones and we like, and then you get that little Joel rate of whatever kind.

Call the thing that is so, I think the haters will hate the lovers, love, and I think it's gonna be just like that, and when you told me how much the his success you think is a result of his communication skills. And how much do you think is it? It is result of the Democrats really sucking at what they do, meaning that he hears the beneficiary of every time, he said something that seems off the wall. It then proceed to interpret it as the worst things and Hitler and it doesn't matter what every single that course face is the worst thing, since Hitler GIN Forte the worst thing since, since hitler- everything the thing is the worst things and Hitler, and so we in the tune that out too, and so we actually end up not only tuning out his myriad silliness says, but we end up tuning the response was actually in some ways more important because he strolled them into undermining their own credibility and their critics of him. They ve gone as far as you can go and still be reasonable, but it didn't get it done so now another another deciding while we should be. Maybe bad people like he was

in their opinions or we'll just copy the part that we want stand, which is the main part of the boy part and their missing the technique, so their picking up all the stuff that you wouldn't want to imitate because they don't get the techniques that they should do so. But what do you think is asked you this before? What do you think he had to pick you up at what twelve techniques here eleven technics if he had to pick up the two or three their most effective that he uses on a routine basis? What what would those be mentioned? Visual border, assemblers or fear so fear, is always year? Your goodwill and the Democrats use their well during the during the campaign. So Hilary made this fear proposal that the Trump was dark. Everything needed was dark. Is proposals were dark? Is policies were dark? It made me think that there really was the concentration camp and in the future somewhere, so fear is always the best. You want identity identities, a powerful won t say we're. Americans were on this t.

It's us against them. That's always good pacing leading is good. You want to match your. Work and you are a match them even harder than they are themselves like. You want to be more for of them, then they are themselves and you saw that with immigration number he started out with deeper fourteen million people. Sure what do you think people people whom I vote for me with? That's what you want. That's what I want to be poor. Fourteen million people when I saw that people say my god. How can you support this man it is like a monster is going to deport fourteen million people. I said no based on what I have seen so far he's pacing the public is is getting their trust, You say I'm more like you than you are like yourself. How to get rid of those fourteen million people? But I also predicted long ahead of time that once he got elected he would moderate and that that part was the first one that went away. Are they killing? The families of terrorists

I want to. I want to fight terrorism harder than you want to fight terrorism. I know you hate terrorist watch, how hard I hate Harris now, I'm president! Well, let's be regional right, so that's the leading part. She you paste them until they say you and I are the same person like we think the same. The thoughts coming out of here, your mouth like just ones out of my mouth and then he changes a little bit and they go. Although me talking now and the end, then then they can follow. So that's probably one of its strongest techniques. This a very negative view of the american Populous in how we very rarely wheat that these techniques they can be used in persuasion are very useful and there's no question the right to mean in you talk about all the social science research with regard to how we actually think and how much of our decision making is instinctive and then we backtrack and create a rational process based on the work of the annual continent in such. What is this about? The future of

not that something we can educate our own way out of order, we basically destined to fall into line behind master communicators, no matter which area of the spectrum they come from. I've actually worry, the trumpet might be the last human president's, and I- and I mean that literally in the sense that the elder them in the social media companies will be able to control the thoughts and feelings in the attitudes and in even the policy preferences of the public to such a degree that the politicians will just have to do whatever the public is saying is prepared to be a precedent in do something that seventy percent of the public doesn't want. You to do is very unusual, so the president's will be captive to the public as they are, except the public will not be independently thinking and they will be led by the president and vice versa. I think the algorithms will decide what the public thinks and then the public will tell the present what to do in. The presence can either have to do it again, a new job, so it's possible-

that evenly because of the complexity of the algorithms, now something that one something that one one person seller down: here's here's my little here's my little equation. I understand how that changes. It's not that it's complicated and a lot of different inputs. In all likelihood, there is no human being any of these companies, no single human who understands how the algorithm works, and that means humans are in charge anymore. It means the algorithm is gonna. Do with is gonna, do We can maybe say if it changes variable. I am pretty sure that something will happen in the sand, but it's not a one variable situation or so many variables. It's like sore. Like climate change, your modeling, it is insanely hard. So I think that the complexity will mask the fact that the algorithms will start running the show

with a little bit of correction from humans to you're, suggesting that we may be a lot less skeptical of social media than we even ought to be, even those of us on the right who have been very sceptical, of sort of their left, leaning bias in places like Facebook and in Youtube. You can be skeptical, you like it's true. It either there's nothing that can happen. That would stop what just describing the only question about that is what what? What is the agenda of of an algorithm when somebody has to actually create the parameters for the algorithm in the first place, but they dont know how it's going to turn out that they can know that tweaking this is likely to change this. But since there are so many other things, was being tweet. I can't really know what the end result is gonna be I'll, have a so called because so maybe we just reach the end of democracy. Basically,

I'm not sure we ever had a real democracy did we I mean why didn't we just come from or baby we're in a period where money? It was the thing that the billionaires are backing certain candidates, and you know that the public doesn't know where the big money is coming from Trump sort of broke that model, because money wasn't the thing they got in elected. It was personality and technique, but he's such a unique character that he is stronger than the algorithm is stronger than the money. You knock it get another one of those good luck you can try, but that is a powerful back. I mean this very dangerous message to a certain extent for the american people, because when you expecting there can people to do with this. Hey they're they're getting now controlled by master communicators by algorithms beyond their control. What are the what's their daily life look like how do they shape the system of India? Has he any cause for optimism here at all or basically surrender to you're sure machine masters further

voters that may not look at different because before it was sort of the media, companies were maybe shaping the message and then the voters with think they made their their minds up, but really there they're just adopting the message of their their favorite communication, gentle. So if you're watching Fox, you think your opinion matches Fox eight about that. I'm watching Fox my opinion is the same as those both for the most case in the people ass, you see. That's my opinions match that but there are really making opinions their receiving opinions, the differences that going from were probably moving from place, where there are people at the top, not many of them deciding what the messengers will be for their side, a sort of what it does is now, but Trump is strong enough that you can. You can kind of you the above that process, but when there is no Trump and when the,

Grow them is stronger than the people running the messages. This could be the algorithm. So if the president has this strength, you're suggesting in lesser your inviting the president on how to create a system in the United States that can help prevent the sort of stuff theatre, do you want? Do you want to prevent? What would it? What is the assumption that must be prevented? Eminence Someone is that that attempts to manipulate people's freewill by technological companies run by an oligarchy fewer probably a bad thing. What were mainly the witches would choose your suggestion when the trolls broken the system were monetary system is telling it we're moving from the oligarchy virtue to this brief time when one trumpet stronger than the oligarchy, to the point where it won't be. The oligarchy won't be Trump Sunday. There won't be a jump at that point. The algorithm will be stronger than the oligarchs and money will matter anymore guy in adapting to you think that the United States, is since we're all presently thinking more alike under this algorithm, its controlling us. This sort of restore some

sort of american unity or does did. Did you things just continue to decay in terms of polarisation, the culture of that's a good question, and a lot of that probably gets to Fox news and maybe a couple other outlets, because, if oxidize suddenly just what business war with a country look like, it would very quickly start to form around whatever communication channels were left. So I think, as long as foxes, Aaron CNN and Emerson B C and the like we're we're gonna be to size for a while. But I think the algorithm move will drive us to one? Let's talk a little bit about kind of the deliberate side of you see. He told me before the show that your time now is split, sixty forty between politics and Gilbert. So where did where the Gilberts I'd come from? What was the origin of of that site of what you do? Well, I had a day. Job work than big company

It was a big bank. Then one day my boss called me- and I was a sort of identified as management YO potential type of person early on in the bus called man said it. I don't have to tell you this, but the media is discovered that we don't have any diversity in senior management and they said we will ever be able to promote youth sure white male. In the end, I was told this directly by the way I want all make clear and not interpreting. This is what my blouse lay a white woman. Told me in choosing the polish ethically. Like is now my decisions coming from the top but don't expect to get a new propulsion promotion. So I left you left as soon as I could get a job at the phone company you got in the management track and few years in my boss called been his office. They said I didn't, I tell you this, but the media realise we have no diversity and senior management

and until further notice and went along, ask how last you can not be promoted because you're, a white male, and that was a point where I thought. Maybe I need to work somewhere that doesn't have a boss. Maybe maybe the boss has the problem right now. I had to be a very specific problems at work Wednesday that leave the same, but having a boss is never a good idea. So I thought Well, let's try some things and one of the things I tried. It wasn't the only thing I tried, but was cartooning, and I submitted some comics us, the short version and once indication company said yes, then the rest was Dilber. History now has the comic community treated using you came out of the closet is a trump supporter everyone's. While I get the of the twenty two the says I will never,

You raised another Delbert comic burning, my my book book every I think for every one person does person, does Atherstone nine, who didn't pay attention to politics before now: pay attention to it. Now they just like their Dilber Comic you talk a little bit about the fact that coming up politically in the area where you live was actually a dangerous things who has been the response in the area: lived, Zog, saliva, a very left, leaning area of California, Northern California is where that is to say, and it was a situation happened during the the primaries. When you some trumps supporters, get attack just walk into their cars, it literally doing nothing by walking to their cars, and that was about the time. I realise that actually physically dangerous and I was also getting tons of troll traffic in who knows how much our bade Scholz and how much or not, but a lot of were branding me you, Joseph Goebbels,

the air from pronouncing correctly, so Hitler's Yo Pr person now here's the thing when their labeling, the President killer, Labeling me as just a supporter explaining his technique as Joseph gobbles. You, creating a situation where Europe its approval. The punch me its approval to help me as you wouldn't say, go ahead candidate running for Congress, but you would say: go: go, kill Hitler! If the situation were reversed and I thought it was a real Hitler, a real, real Hitler, and I could stop him. I'd kill him. I hope you do right so that situation was becoming a real in people's minds. They had left politics, and at the end of the realm of yeah, I think there's a real Hitler coming in. There might be a little body, we'd better get him first, so I stopped appearing in public life. I don't do any public stuff. If I can avoid I've done a few, but only if I had to tell you met the president,

their pictures. They came out of it. What was that like to confirm your views of the president and undermine the views of the president? Now these saw him behind those posed or Europe. Those great relief was because it was during the time when everybody was saying that maybe they will be the twenty fifth amendment. Maybe he's crazy, you flip a now behind you to be out of doors. And I thought to myself what, if I'm wrong about all this? What have I been privately there's just like it would just whack job bought. It turns out that is the most reasonable sane person in person completely personable for the entire. Am. I was there, he acted like. I was the only person in the room. His social skills are off the chart, is charisma is crazy and we should be in a good way in young, nothing that would even be slightly worrisome about His mental studies is definitely in control and seems to me that overall you're philosophies pre deterministic view of human nature that people can be controlled from about by a great,

indications or by algorithms. You in your own life, though, have made a bunch of choices that are a pretty individually motivated and look like you're gonna surging off the beaten track, mean first of all, to leave business and go into complex as one and then too from comics two eminent analyze, this cookie candidate, who is in the middle of the wilderness and twenty fifteen and point out what is enormous sixty per cent of my time analyzing his machinations and politics. So you yourself are pretty enough, just a guy. Are you deterministic about human nature? About yourself well, I don't believe in free will, but I leave that I have to act as though I have it. Apparently, I'm programmed act as if I have it so that that's as far as I go in terms of the German, this, part, so it might be that were were just a simulation. I happened to buy into these simulation theory that humans are perhaps a software simulation created by a prior civil position- oh ok, eggs by now, and while you are musk, says the same thing lot, a lot of the smartest when he's not

How is your again are? Why do not they the time to about the but the inertia physicist to say, the states was actually illegitimate, thought the. For those who haven't heard it before the idea is that in our lifetime we will certainly be able to create software simulations that look and act in whenever in whatever way. That's true, I think that the real, so southern they'll just be a simulation. If we can do, it is more likely that were the result of it, in other words, for every real, real civilization that can get to the point. It can create a simulation that thinks Israel, it won't make one school may more than one might be a cheque for teenagers. They can make a civilization, so the odds are that there are far more simulated realities than there are original species in the.

Would be more than one a ritual species, but there will always be form or simulations, and you can't tell if you want to do. We just get the weirdest one is have anything airily are either the weirdest by a honestly on there, and that sort of philosophical note is that just away, I know it's gone far afield separatists interesting about it. Is that just a way of escaping God? Basically, I mean that's as also viable, as God. The idea of a guy they created human beings in a certain way sounds a lot like what you're talking about issues that you called the God of four hundred pound guy, who invented a programme in its base.

But is it would have a lot of overlap right, maybe with validate, are or feelings that we have that there's something that created us and it also maybe there's something to that. But I think that my basic feeling about the world is that the human brain did not evolve to understand reality, because I didn t do needed to you survive and procreate. That's it that's the whole thing, so you get to the grocery store near here. You're buying some vegetables new standing next to someone who thinks they reincarnated and then the other side is someone who thinks that their profit flew to Heaven and the winged horse. I knew somebody who thinks there there Savior walked on water now. Some of those by the things might have also happened at the same time, but were generally walking around with people who were in completely different realities. If you look at them elevating the Trump Haider versus the trunk supporter. This is what I call to movies on one screen. We think we're looking at

same thing. What we are really not be interpreted as the same reality and a base level. So when you say it was a God isn't a simulation is anything my my why I guess where reduce that is, if it makes you happy and it helps, you predict, what's gonna happen, acts was also makes you happy. Then you ve got good filter on life, so they persuasion approach that I take two things makes me happy and has done a pretty good job so far are predicting. If it stops, it stops predicting try to adopt a new felt so islands. In the interview deal with SAM Harrison, SAM was quite exercised about the kind of morality of of what President Trump dies in using an ado trying to Peggy down to the idea that our President Trump has done politically more. Do you actually think that the stuff that he does politically the use of these techniques, the kind of in her in inherent fitting

and what he's doing sometimes is? Is there a moral components of that now with its direction wholly appropriate? So if what he's doing is the best example is the economy. So if he tells tantalize about the the army and the fact checkers say I am not exactly true. This isn't the best jobs, and that is not the best gdps and said she may be technically incorrect. But what is his intention is intention is that he understands the economy is a psychology machine. If you get the psychology right, the machine works. He takes us to a higher level of hyperbole, higher level of optimism. He says everything's better than ever before. What does that cause people did? It causes people to invest, as they say, really his great it's even greater than I thought it was inside great thanks. Mr President,

It s a little extra, and what does it do? It makes a great so the investing makes the economy work, so he is actually sort of using hyperbole win. That's his word. He says he uses it to try to draw us to positive if he says that I see this is the worst thing in the world and it's going to destroy the planet. That's why we have to do so much to defeat them. Well, that might be a little bit of an exaggeration but you still want to be like us and if that's what it took, the guilder everybody on the same page, that's a virtuous direction, even if the fact checking was not accomplish loads and teach me fair or to some of the present trumps creates on this score. Some that I personally, that is used in attacking his opponents, for example, is, is, I think, pretty obviously not morally or directional appropriate moon. You suggest that I will give you an example: ok, suggesting the tent reserves dad killed. Jeff K is probably a pretty good example,

ok, well what you wanted you! You have acknowledged that that was just a throwaway right. I mean in the big scheme that wasn't anything nobody was used by yes, but as part of an overall kind of line of attack on crews. The crews was was why in tat and that is as wives uglier than theirs. Better the Israelis alone, and so let me ask you, were if TAT Group had been elected, would we have such a good situation with North Korea, well, maybe not what right, sir, so you're gonna ask any kind of actual Minnesota whenever and everybody who is doing, this obviously believes that they are going to be the vice president's. Otherwise they wouldn't do it, but the into it, but it was wrong with that, but that doesn't make it a moral one If you believe authority does morality that your positing is a all only morality, it is not a means, including morality. I'm saying that the end justifies the Magyar are. Let me say that, right to the camera, the ends always justify the means and people

who are you otherwise, are doing what I call a loser. Think because in every decision I'll talk to you again in every decision, you weigh the costs and benefits it's only if you're trying to influence somebody, you say all the UN's didn't justify the means in some cases as true, but generally speaking in every decision you looking at the costs, all of them looking at the benefits, all of them in some other costs might be the year. The moral fibre that comes you comes apart. A little bit of your refitting right, such as part of the costs, they still have to compare the benefits. That's not it's not immoral to to prefer benefits of recourse if the benefits are larger than the cause of the problem is that in an ass nets- and second, sometimes your perception of the goals and the means are miss aligned. Every bad person in history has said the same thing

right, which is that I have certain ends and those justify the means that I am using and since I can argue that the ends are good, the means are therefore justified, and one of the things that we have tried to argue against is the idea that people can be used as tools in pursuit of particular me so yeah of grand equality between men, surging economy and and a peaceful coexistence leads to the ECB. Termination of entire populations or the creation of blogs. There's no at present in his throat with our ones and finally, the other the sword, and I call on you have thereby morality is finally somebody, but, but you have to the others, an analogy problem here. You can compare some hyperbole, they get you better policies too. The Holocaust. Of course. I agree. Of course. I agree with that, but we do have a question was one of is the president using immoral tactics, when he does that in your original statement was that he was not

Then he went to the kind of all the wet, maybe you're selling you pass the sale by looking at the whole, I'm saying that, if you were to look at in isolation is fear being good or bad we agree with the all things bad, I wouldn't want to live in a world murmurs lie, but then we go to real ism. If you're in the business text is only by lying your job, everybody, everybody everybody's lying from why they relate to why they didn't get there. The report and on time to the marketing is mostly lies. Yo dressed up to be barely legal sales is mostly lies. The government is mostly lies in so tat. Comes in Gaza. I see everybody around me as lie in about thirty percent of the time and it seems to be effective or adds up to seventy see what happens is sorted this I think it is because there are limiting principle, meaning at what point. Would you a Jew dictate that the end does not justify the means? So what work it wasn't from have done in TWAIN?

still ass. It did this with the agreement that was actually made very often twice. It seems binary races, Hillary Clinton versus Donald Trump, Hilary from a conservative perspectives, an existential threat to a lot of things. The conservatives believe so President Trump is justified in doing pretty much any thing in the left you up to and including collusion with Russia, which I obviously don't believe things much crap by the left to say. Well, that's what he was willing to do. Donald from Junior was willing do that, get together with the Russians and all the rest of it. What would you say would be the limiting principle to the idea that some threat requires the use seventy per cent lying or a hundred percent, while I'm not sure you can ever make one rule that you'll be happy, applies in all situations, because every situation as a whole bunch of variables and none no two situations are exactly like. But for example, if he said I think I'm gonna have TED to TED crews executed like I'll. Have a hit squad, just kill him. I would say: ok, that's bad you gonna, be gotten their other than those. That would be a precedent that way,

Not only if he got into office, he d be maybe convicted, so it doesn't work on a practical level. Plus you don't want to start this standard, so the whole thing falls apart right. So there's some of them. It is easy, but if you say was it ok for him to insult somebody were to suggest something in a political campaign. There wasn't true to say that sort of standard material- okay, so where do you see the country going from here as he eats? It seems like you're, happy guy with a very pessimistic view of the future, not at all it's a different view of the future, but is actually more optimistic than I think I let on ok! So well, what is it? What is that vision of the future? What about? What's that, once the active? What's the happy part about being controlled by algorithms in everybody like India? Well, the

that is what necessarily do a bad job compared to human performance. Humans are pretty sketchy, so I dont automatically assume that humans will be worse sets governing or the computers will be worse, a governing or or worse and driving cars. I am looking forward to the self driving cars so but I've said that were entering a go the age and the way I do find the golden age is a weird time. The only really will happen once and civilization when you dont have resource shortages. You have idea shortages. If you take the urban areas, for example, we ve been working with bill boldly and the blade authority, and what he does is it. The EU is a nonprofit where it clears our cities and I'm sorry it clears out related areas in the inner cities and they were trying to figure out what to put their. What the things you learn is that fixing the inner cities is not a money problem. Like you

It would be right, like nobody has the money to do this, but there are plenty of people who would put money into it if you had a good enough idea, so we have an idea shortage, not a resource shortage, and I dont know if the world's ever been there before, and that means that if we use are thinking or persuasion or our communication skills right, we can solve just about everything now. Just about everything which is simple example is cancer there a whole bunch of cancer trials and then their whole bunch, a cancer doctors, the kiss her doctors, even the ones who keep up with it, dont know about all the trials and the trials are specific to specific types of cancer. So now there's a company ethical drive that makes a database to pare patients with specific test is even the doktor, wouldn't know how to find of theirs.

Having been added, but information, it is, has the potential to be just revolutionized area by getting people to the right, the right kind of treatment. So there's just you see something like that, just in all other Rome's, all other realms of civilization, Raina side. You have one final question, for I want to ask you whether the lessons of present interim can be applied to any other, petition can can we can we look forward to applying those lessons in our own life and, if so, how? But if you actually want Your Scots answer: you have to be Delaware. Subscribers subscribe discovered a daily whereby complex subscribe goes for money here. And of our conversation. There more go check out the book when Bigley

Scott items got things which are saddened by fascinating seven, it's great to see you again. Shapiro shows Sunday Special was produced by Jonathan, hey, executive producer, Jeremy Boring associate producer. Math is clever edited by Alex Syndrome. Audio is mixed by dealing case errand make up is by just while there are entitled fixed by Cynthia Envelope. The bench show Sunday Special is a daily wire forward. Publishing production copyright for publishing twenty eighteen,