Welcome. Welcome, welcome an arm chair, expert experts on expert endangered. Joined by monster mouse. I'm sorry, Did that you labelled your house the mouse House. Many of US the mouse and house Society is also fund. Like the making miles miles house quite house, you gonna make a real colorful phone funding there like a mouse. I well allow, so it has been announced that I'm doing a digital show with Ellen. That's can all the renovation for that? Whom else house is coal, work, Monica New Pad Monica Newport today Have a really interesting guess. Judd brewer Judd is an empty. A Phd is an american psychiatry neuroscientist an author. He is director of research and innovation, at Brown, universities, mindfulness, centre and associate. Professor and behaviour on social sciences in the Brown school public, health and in

I kindly Browns, worn Albert Medical School Brewer founded Doktor Judd, an app base, digital therapeutic treatment programme for anxiety over eating an smoking. You should check out his book the craving mine from cigarettes to smartphones, to love why we get hooked and how we can break bad habits. This was a great at the South yeah. I learned so much he's so smart and indeed whom we can and about the way the brain is functioning it just it is in sight to why we do all the things we do. The really helps you work through it all that says that happening and that's that happening in this pass and when I can do this to combat that yeah, it's great who doesn't have a bad. If you dont know about how it's only one talk to you, I do on it. Huh

a great city of yields, Octoo Monica and not to me, please enjoy jerk brewer, we are supported by square. You might know square is the little white card reader, but square has a lot more tools that can help businesses, especially now that businesses are having to figure out when and how to safely reopen and make things work in the new normal businesses are stepping up to the challenge. Like impressive smiles. Dental practice in Arlington, Illinois, owned by doktor, mean a bar. Some doktor bar some had to close down his office in only except emergency and virtual appointments, but recently the state allowed Dennis to reopen with new guidelines, so doktor Barsoom made sure he had everything in place: a fleet disease patients, things like using PPP air filtration, an extra sanitation. His office is also using square terminal, so patients can pay with contactless payments like apple pay. So if you're a business owner square, wants you to know, it has tools to help you shift your business like impressive smiles is doing no matter of your Dennis restaurant. Whatever you can easily start accepting contactless payments with square an if you want to start selling online square can help with that. To all these tools worked together, you just need a square accounting, get started, see all the ways work and help your business right now by visiting square dot com slash, go slashed acts. We are supported by ass, let it grains my morning routine. I'm lotta. I swear by New Dale. I woke up this morning and I bet on the desert. For a couple days, I've been eat. Like crap, I felt malnourished and pounded double dose of f what greens and within twenty minutes, as like they're gone by now, I did, I feel it Atlanta greens and all in one daily nutritional beverage for improved, held them. Pete performance, athletic greens developed from a proprietary blend of seventy five vitamins, minerals and hopefully sourced ingredients. Ethnic greens is a green super food powder designed to fill the nutritional gaps in your diet. Athletic greens is lifestyle friendly, whether you eat Kido, Pollio, vague in Derry, free or gluten free, no harmful chemicals. No Gmos, no funny additives. Abba greens up you cover all your nutritional basis, weak grass, full late and other high quality, be vitamins, vitamin c, zinc, citrate, plant and whole food extracts adapted genes, magnesium, you name it. It's got it in their pre am probiotics. If you're interested in up in your health routine. In your looking for one of the best most complete formulas out there, you definitely want to check out ethnic greens. They delivered straight your door, it tastes great, it's convenient and its high quality, whether you here in the? U S, Canada, Australia, Europe or the UK just jump over to ask what it greens, dot com, Slash Dax and claim my special offer today at a twenty serving pack for free at valued at seventy nine dollars. With your first purchased, that's athletic greens, dotcom, Slash Dax, he's o Judd, which were so sorry,

Sorry. Sorry. Sorry. Sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry again, those cases its markers vault, but in this case it was never. Once again. My dear children job, I don't you down: ok, ok, so I keep oscillating big between maybe, it's terrible to be isolated without jobs. Because your lonely verses, it must be awesome to be isolated without kids. Well, testing this, never shows up in an audio recording. Ah ha yeah in mass juices or you and now Rhode Island. Where are you I'm in Massachusetts? My wife's, a professor at Holly Cross in how the locals pronounce it was tat was that yeah we're about Forty five minutes north of Providence, where Brown is where I work, there's gotta be a the challenge when two professors marry one another yeah I mean that's it.

the kind of the most ripe job to ask to be travelled somewhere right, yeah knowledge around. It called the two body problem you ve heard of this one neuron, that's how we basically to try to get academic jobs within cities there even remotely near each other's really challenging to do because you never know when to jobs, can ache because you never know when to jobs, can I come up, and you know this or that so to both be able to live, within in a forty five minutes of one of our, like my wife drives ten minutes to work, and I drive forty five minutes. It's fabulous senior shoe at one point. She was professor in Scranton, Pennsylvania yet again an apartment. It's like a four hour drive, for us so an end. I know people who are by coastal or even intercontinental where in others

like one of the partners, has a job in France or ITALY and one in New York, and they are somehow make that work with kids now long story short. It doesn't work this year from we're neighbors right your view from Indiana I am. Where did you go Michigan, and I d tasseled corn in Indiana my image in the summers and my childhood: did everybody details and cause? I think anybody in the MID West ever and then I counted it night right, yeah hold on Monday. This is our way, and now I gotta call I was getting to call my garage me. I dont know how that will have to acknowledge as well our back, whereby all job we're gonna, send you like for years now facing the worst start we ve ever had, but there with us back, Indiana live in indian apples.

In and around so I lived in Indianapolis nor side for a bit and then Ensigns Bill Indiana, which is a little town just north, like toward Purdue. Basically, literally, my whole neighborhood was surrounded by cornfields. Oh, yeah I and what your parents do, among was a, was called Abd AL all but dissertation. She didn't get her phds you dropped out of grad school when she got pregnant with my older brother was stay at home, mom takin care for kids. Until my parents got divorced when when I was like six, then my dad became Debbie, nothing there. So she started as an aerobics instructor in there work, your way up to being a laboratory researcher and then went to law school at night and became a patent attorney. My mom is my hero. We have nearly the same childhood, I mean better, So we are my dad bounced at three, my mom's art as a janitor

the night shifts in a building this huge business by the time I graduated high school, I, what is it about the mid western upbringing than it's like single mom? Raising everybody unfortunately gotta hunts, it was single monsters raising everyone nationally as well. I forget thinking eighties man now did he give you any kind of? access to grind that became beneficial in your life. That's a good question. What, The thing that it made me do is unlike Ann Arbor, feminist, like grown corn fed over a feminist, and my wife actually gave me this great teacher. That says you can't scare me. My wife has a phd, not aware that when I travel luggage comments, so that's the biggest one, because my mom growing up in dealing with corporate culture. It is an attorney she got. You know rest all the time and discriminated against in there all these white

Then he couldn't imagine a woman like smarter than they were in me. They were so threatened by it, that was the biggest acts that I think I had and still grind is all these entitled men who are in secure there. If you can't handle people who are competent and smart and kick ass and there, and be women so that the one eyed dried. Ok, so you went all the good schools the ended up with a phd in an empty and were drawn specifically to the brain works, young, neurology and psychiatry the idea largely- and actually I wanted Princeton, because my College Council told me I'd never get in nice girl, brilliant right, I'm a thank you utter a word when I got there. I take this pressmen chemistry class. Where I learned about these molecules called like putrid seen in cadaverous folk. I, like wow

ever smell like shit, because these fatty acid molecules, that's so cool round, Justin, know that, like these were the molecules of life, and so That's what got me fascinated about. Like you know, I looked at my chemistry professor is not well, I could just like learn my whole life and I could get paid to do it. so that peace totally got me into that night. I thought I was gonna be a chemist. I was can be chemistry, professor. I loved organic chemistry. You know, like all these markers of life, And then I noticed my junior year saw these dudes that, were there a pigeon hauling themselves into studying tiny little molecules because they had to be a world expert to get tenure. You know, and so, when somebody else's an expert here, you ve got to specify more and more and more commands. Go quick question: about that yeah yeah. I guess a chicken

question, so is it that there is? There is a great responsibility to publish a ton when you're at that level. Right in would hold logically the more granular you get on any single thing. There's likely whole, there were a paper could be published. Is this system itself designed to end up getting that way? Yeah unfair? Finally- and I think this is not it's not highlighted the system where you know it's like the publisher perish the end its novelty and new discoveries. They get published its now, replication, which is actually a hallmark of science- revelations really critical, but it's hard to publish a replication paper because it journals is me. You know we have already seen that work. What it's important it so in actually were undergoing a replication crisis right now in science, and especially in psychology. You know my scientific focus, her nose neuroscience and in a cognitive neuroscience and things like that,

but in the field of psychology, which is kind of adjacent in and related psychology is relatively young ends a lot colleges there could be as a cycle professor you'd, have these huge psych wonder when classes and these These classes would start beginning the semester. They give each student a stack of questionnaires and they say you know question hour for college, for course credit, and so they get these a huge number of students filling out a huge number of questionnaires, and if you just look statistically, you know if you just analyze, all those data, you're gonna by chance, get wet or called significant findings. You, where you like, make this association with this, even though it could just spurious it could just be a statistical anomaly and this? This was allowed to happen for decades, and then you know people claiming this in that you know when you look at it, people couldn't replicate these things because they were probably just statistical flukes. So

This led to this replication crisis, where people were starting to question these, these assertions in these papers They couldn't replicate them and then they realize in people are being a little listen fast with their statistics, so there they started, requiring people to actually on four think of a hypothesis ahead of time and- and this is in place. Toward all psychologists bed. You know it's like you have to come up with an idea. First, you have to free it is true that idea in a kind of electronic vault, where you say I already came up with this idea and I'm going to test it now using these statistics- and comes out to be true. It shows that I didn't cherry pick. You know it's called p hacking where you, you know your key values until you find us, as this is equally significant result, do you can't p hack anymore to get I a good journal, so its action cleaning up the field quite a bit simply by requiring people to do that,

the scientifically responsible thing yeah, I don't know, if there's a name for this phenomenon, I think that there has to be in your reply. I know it but Our minds in general have a biased to try to make sense of things after the fact right. Don't we have some inclination to do that in so, if you're, just looking at data and then figuring out It's going on the you're gonna have a heavy bias in that situation. Now, yeah totally our brains are either their association machines. You could think of it that way where we love to make association between things, gets us into trouble. Bigtime, because there's this whole thing about correlation does not equal causation. My own views dimension used to say to an unrelated, this event could happen. That could be true. This event could happen. That could be true, but you have to prove that are actually related because more likely than they're gonna, be just to turn unrelated. You know, YAP correlation, not causation, and we,

brains loved each other like a loud bang that equals there wherein reality it's like loud bang just happened, but anyone who said any medical miss three in their life, be put under detective. Have you know, Monica had something she had a seizure that was out of the blue and am start looking for all these clues and that any one that seems plausible, you're, gonna just start double down on it, but I think, probably the most famous case in recent times was the link between vaccines in autism, and it makes so much sense why people thought it because the signs of autism generally become obvious around the exact same time, some of these vaccines. But to your point reverse it and said I got a hunch. My kids gonna get autism. If I give him this vaccine now, given the vaccine statistically, almost no one's getting that result. So it's really just only through observing

like it, has autism what was new all we had this vaccine. It makes so it seems like causality. Yeah that's a great example, and it also praise on people's very basic survival mechanisms, such as fear so Fear is supposed to be there to help us survive. You knew we see the same virtue tiger on the Savanna and then we run away and it helps us learn. Oh, don't go there that's kind of dangerous but fear also makes us react quickly. You know we don't have time to sit around and ponder. Does that's. It do Tiger. Have you no cavities? I wonder if those teeth are really sharp teeth were agenda narrowing view, I think, you're right competitive as you, so the idea. There is you know you get people freaked out and then their prefrontal cortex Thinking part of their brain is off line, and then you like of gotcha in just feed shit right in your brain and be like a vaccine.

Too bad. You know when I have an agenda against vaccines, again I am ultimate compassion. Anyone is dealing with that life. Altering diagnosis. You know I get it. Will you want an answer? This idea that, like something exists and you dont know why it so unsettling for peace will, peace is also fascinating from a scientific standpoint, because you think of the survival brain has been there, since the ceaseless, like the old, is known nervous systems to learn the same way that we do on top. we ve layer, this NEO court action, you literally new brain which is involved in thinking in planning and that thinking in planning piece of the brain. Actually needs information to think in play actor. You know- and so we have accurate information, then we're not can it be able to think in plant, but our thinking brain is still doing stuff in and then it starts to spin out into worry and worry can actually spin into panic when

worried doesn't get its answer. So I think your eye touching on something important we're seeing that now you know there's a ton of uncertainty and then you guys are so media and then you get this Social contagion where people are catching. You knew emotions from other people. Rightly six feet does not protect against contagion. So you add that, and then people start to panic, and then this leads to wildly unthinking behavior. I also able, being an optimist and a pessimist, a very optimistic long term view of humanity, and I very pessimistic, sometimes punks, we did our short term view of it. Why your skull? May we have such bad wiring for all this. I am told with you- maybe that's your midwestern sensibilities yeah well, so I think there could be some food like really broad strokes, things, and you ve already touched on a couple of them to help people understand how the brain works. It's your point. That out

Our brain has evolved in different stages, indifferent animals and it's just carried up the evolutionary tree and we get new layers and new layers and its own shocking. The thing even functions Reich what you're saying that that that reptilian MID brain the things it's designed to do, and it's got to work in concert with this prefrontal cortex, which is cable while this crazy stuff, the fact that they even functions is almost a miracle, it really is. They would be like designing a Tesla car, but you still have esteem powered engine component in it you know in a donkey involved. The whole thing some house can work with such different technology, so it so what? through some of the things that, like our counter intuitive our? Why we process information the way we do or some other you know the pitfalls of that- that evolutionary bride, we're on So it may be helpful just for folks to understand this basic learning process and how I think it's

apparently simple that outcomes razor where they simply explanations, usually the right one low vat rates, if you think of survival, our brains are actually set up to help us remember where food is right, so it three core elements: a trigger a behavior in a reward. Oghee are given example. So let's say that in our ancient answers are out there on the savanna foraging there. an uncertain territory. Okay, so there are a couple of things going on. One is we're on high alert looking for danger, because we don't know if there's danger there or not. And were also on search mode where we're looking to see where's the food where's, the food where's, the food. As soon as we find food so there's the trigger. We see the food. The behaviors is that we eat the food, and as long as it's your gives us some calories, the reward, and- and I say this broadly because from a neurosurgeon,

EC standpoint. That reward is actually this Doberman signal. Coming from our stomach to our brain. That says, remember what you ate and where do you found? It is not necessarily a pleasant thing. It's just saying this is a memory tool, so you can remember to come back here the next day. Ok, so the danger peace comes in. Where were in a scanning round, and if we see the safer to tire we run away so the triggers. We see the danger, the behaviors that we run away and then the reward is we kept. It survive if the Duke repeat the process, the next day right, doesn't very, very very basic mechanism as human. So that's how evolution early conserved it is so I think that's helpful, just as a framework for people to keep in mind now, so that helpful just as a framework for people to keep in mind now so aha moment that I had learned in college and then quickly forgotten it? When I went to medical school medical school, where this term

academic Bolivia, where you you kind of Yuki, we don't have enough space in our brain, to remember everything the so it's like you binge on information, and then you purge it and when you come to the next subject, because you can't possibly keep everything in mind. So you know I'd come figured out my brains. I could learn other stuff and then, when I was working as a young addiction, psychiatry says really struggling to help. My patience, you know, anything from heroin. Cocaine said losing weight acquitting cigarettes. You know what I learned and residency was usual. just the islands that that works starts working right exactly so, so those are the tools I was supposed to be using, and so you know my patients there can be like em they're, like you clearly as I did. What with I'm going through telling meeting using our quit smoking, because we can't think our way out of a bad habit. We can't certainly can't think our way out of an addiction I really want anyone listening to hear that you will.

Never wake up with some low of shame that will make? You have a thinking episode, were you get so resolute It's never gonna happen again. That is not our brains, work! That's how behaviorally we work You will never get so. Shame filled that you will finally just decide you will have to take Action action can lead to new thoughts, but thinking can't leads me thoughts. I just want there to be really clear: ok, yeah, thank you for emphasising that, but just going back to when I was sitting there struggling in my in having my patients, I realize I remember The windows were going to be a hospital and we're on a smoke a campus. I look at the window. I see my patient smoking in the parking lot and I realize wait a minute- they don't learn to smoke in my office rate, so this habit formation is set up as a context, too. and it memory process, which is just a fancy term for like hey, remember where you do a behavior

so people don't learn to smoke in my office. They don't want to get anxious in my office. They all went over, eat my office and realizing wait. A minute work were gone about this. The horror way. How can I actually It's my office and deliver it to them. so I started looking at you know. What are we missing here- and I realize this thing that I learning college around reinforcement learning this whole positive and negative reinforcement peace that we just talked about what survival? This is to this whole learning process, any underlines the formation of all habits. Everything over eating to smoking to getting it due to our phones, to procrastination, to even shame- and I. Started digging through the literature, and I realise there is a whole vast array. Minister, from the eighties, around even anxiety, being a habit loop? I listened with this and residency. This is so interesting for the bringing all the way back. It was novel and eightys and mother time, you're learning knowing gives a share. I yet exactly bizarre

public steer. Who cares if it might help people right right yet? Well, you know me. I think people made the connection from a scientific standpoint. But I dont think there were clinicians in their saying. How can we actually use the so thats thing that we see there's this whole bench to bedside thing where it's like. If you have a scientific discovery, how can you actually bring it into clinical practice and there alone, people silent in science there a lot of people followed in clinical practice, but not many people doing translational work in that's actually something they got me really interested in becoming a physician. In the first place, I loved chemistry, a love learning about how the body and mind work, but I also had this passion to really help but at the same time and just studying organic chemistry, wasn't gonna do it. For me, When I decided to do this empty Phd programme, we can work. It actually combined. My love of learning my love of science with my interest in helping people

and so here I was in my office is a vast words when I was beginning as a psychiatrist struggling and as they wait a minute. Let's go back to the science. There is actually a lot to know here. What we need to know is okay. This is our that's our form right, and so we actually know this. The next step is? How do we actually change habits, and this is where I got super interesting. Ok, it's pretty interesting somebody got really interesting because it turn that our brains work Certain way, as in our brains are always comparing behaviors, using example, my like the one about broccoli in chocolate right, so given a choice between eating broccoli, chocolate to my brain, its and hope pregnant? You know targeted and then, and then you take the chocolate, my brain as his whole. Chocolate hierarchy set up. It's like milk, chocolate down low and the latest anything above sixty percent. Okay, now you're talking so

percent there you know see, saw the little king an maybe somebody in a bubble and then there's this new office where my brains got this whole reward. you hierarchy set up. That's our brains work by the way. Is that dance which is hysterical or you really think about it, but yeah yeah in your ear declaration that I like chocolate. There is within a hundred other declarations and again its insanely complicated Yeats, like fractal patterns, you can work we're inside it went inside it? here, just knowing that was a big realizations like wait a minute. This is the most powerful learning process in our brain. Why aren't we tapping into it so I started looking to see. Ok, how can we tap into it? So we set habit as a way to help our brains be efficient, so they can learn new things I think of it is set and forget so, let's say: let's go with the chocolate theme: women Five years old, we got our first birthday party. We learn that

word value of chocolate, cake, tasty but we also associated with ice cream and friends and presents and play games and things like that and then pretend we gotta birthday party. We reinforce that get stronger and stronger and stronger, so I think it is set and forget you set the reward, value and feed forget about the details right, your brains like I got. This already know its wording, but let's move on get yeah. I just be really clear about their rights of at that point, it's kind of moving almost into like a subconscious thing right which is operating in the background. You are completely unaware of about your responding to it, despite your lack of awareness of it too, let's use another example, smoking right, so my lad stood a bunch of research with smoking and how to help people quit smoking, the average age of the person coming into my studies for smoking cessation. Is I should say the averages of when they started smoking, yeah thirteen. So people in their middle age. They ve been smoking for thirty years. They start when there

thirteen right because they associate not the great hasted cigarettes because actually nicotine's fox in writing makes your first time somebody smokes they feel sick, because there is a lot is saying: do you're, putting Why are you doing us, like the very delicate little chamber, with a swell guy you doing? That is yeah cool now selling its arid see now I am now acting older than my age or whatever, so this isn't about hey smoking's good. For me, I think it's time for me to be a mature responsible. Seven three hundred start smoking for my health. So so we set these habits when we're young usually, and then we had a patient who came to me had been smoking forty years and you know, we mapped out the number of Times hybrid force, this habit loop ready for this. Two hundred and ninety three thousand He reinforces loop right

two hundred ninety three thousand times and of course he couldn't think is way active because unless there's compare it so vastly more than his reward system for eating at that point, I'm sure you're not even to ninety thousand meals, not for sleeping, never having sex. Never anything is bright. The number one loop he had participated in yeah yeah twenty times a day, so we reinforce these things and that set and forget, actually freeze our brain to learn new things right. So imagine if we had to re, learn everything every morning from walking to putting our close to talking to making food to eating too eh, we'd be exhausted by breakfast it's so we have to learn habits as a way to help us survive. It's a good thing in general, yet we see these things, especially in modern day where you can totally engineer things to be addictive rights. There are these things that are,

like I won't even call them food because they are not really food, but you can make things like. Did you read out of my favorite Peer review journal the onion, a headline that says the reader celebrates its one millionth ingredients right yet because the thing is totally manufacturer to get you addicted yeah. My wife and I watched and sixty minutes about eight nine years ago may have brought these food chemist to an Orange grove there, peeling the oranges and they were tasting and they are off some tasted euros can like watching semi aser, something where there really really good at think bottom breaking down the different characteristics of eating this orange The guy said ass, though this is good. It's got. This components get this component. Why why? This is not good for us is that these last two long so what we'd ideally like to do and laboratories recreate this exact hit, but make it dissipate, immediately

you're you'll want another bit of the product so one of the goals in the engineering of the taste is that it goes away immediately so that you crave another one, as I do how do you mean going to compete with that one of the programme of the smaller as it you know, chemical engineers in the world is fear and how to make me eat more chips. I'm fucked care I hope Anderson Cooper then asked him. How do you live with yourselves? I think we all get my object. He is certainly not picturing. The two hundred and thirty pounds a year old when he makes that statement. He's is just like tunnel vision and how you make this thing yet and what's rewarding, is a bonus. At the end of the year, catch money is cash, money, eight in arms

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so so anyway, I dont mean demonize people and we were all frail humans in this respect. But if you go back to this in a you can see how this habit formation gets gets too we hijacked, you know where, We can now refine things you do like coca leaves are not addictive, but eight cocaine. So all these things that we can actually refine and make you knew even technology, you can totally hijacked, this whole system, by having intermittent reinforcement, which is just a fancy term for random rewards when you leave you things in your beep senora pings on your phone on, because you never know when you're gonna get one of those things your brains is always that food is, I fear, you know, because information is food, so all this stuff gets engineered in modern day making it really hard for us to compete with it. Yet the Good NEWS is. This is not the end of the story where not all doomed this, where I'm also long term,

optimist by short term pessimist, it's like no other pedestrian just got hit by a car. They forgot to look both ways because there are staring at their phone goods. Really we ve come to this, here? If we understand the process, you know we're not gonna fall victims too, the tech industry or the food industry. If we know our brains, work, but if we don't know how they work in all bets are off. So here, just knowing these simple processes around oh brain learns by reinforcement learning my brain has this reward hierarchy. This can help in very simple ways, and this is something that my last been studying, which is two things one is: can We actually help people see the actual reward value right now of a behavior or of our food sovereignty. Apple. We

of this app called you right now that teaches people to bring awareness to their eating patterns, uses mindfulness training to really help them zoom in pay attention as are eating, and we can silly model this out mathematically. We don't need to go into all the details, but their these. These models, where you can actually look at the reward value of a certain food. And so we have people pay attention as they eat, and then we asked them right afterwards. How satisfying were actually how content do you feel that they overeat earthy junk food when they're not actually hungry, and they really pay attention afterwards? It doesn't feel that good right safer smoking, a cigarette people realize it's tastes like not very good within ten times of people doing this, we can watch the reward value, go from very high to vote three zero. virtually zero. So it doesn't take a lot of paying attention. It simply takes really paying attention and being curious, like what am I actually getting from this? Oh, you know eating

three pieces of cake doesn't actually feel very right right, so that up to reduce the reward value of an old behaviour so that satin forget that we set when we were five or when we were thirteen gets uptake in modern day where we can see out. This isn't actually that rewarding, put a short animation together on my Youtube channel that actually explain this. A little bit of folks are interested, but basically within ten times we see this reduce, which then open up the window for when I think of as the baby of the bigger better offer. Ok, So what we can then do is say: okay well, if eating three pieces of cake, isn't that great or smoking cigarettes isn't that great our brains are actually going to go back and keep doing it unless we give them something better so here I think of where can we find something? That's not just a substitution I have a lot of patients who will they could ok and then they get addicted to exercise

the exercise is good, but if you're addicted to exercise your more likely to get injured in you're, not gonna find it pleasurable, because you're feeling you know that drive to exercises compared to just enjoying in all these things, so you we not just bringing a substitution behavior, but can we bring something in that's intrinsically rewarding and something that we all have something you don't have to go and buy? What we're really gwig? The fact you're even designing the question to analyze contentment versus satisfying those are very very specific words with very different specific means, and I think it's intentional so and again? Just because I happen to be sober, I weird strive for contentment, which is not a sexy proposition when you're telling people- and I think it's worth just delineating those two things so they are drastically different to you, because I think you ve got the wisdom of lived expense hence it so interesting that you pick that up because a lot of people just blow by that and they are like gale whatever some good, so

I'm curious. What's your experience, a difference between contentment and even satisfaction, but I've let's make it even easier from folks excitement, so there, all start with excitement and then, let's get into the dissatisfaction verses content, because we did. We actually did some pilot studies to pick these words thickly Jaso excitement is something that I think modern day has gotten us all addicted to where it is. It is gonna, stay the excitement equals happiness right right. Right was able to trace this back somewhere to experience times where that it move from things like you, demoniac, which is a contentment, is happiness to excitement, driven happiness and excitement gets us to buy things you know, and so is the basis for our consumer economies in society and a physiological level excitement lives in the mid brain right and contentment lives in the front brain gap ready ass,

so that excitement peace is actually there to get us to eat food. So if go back to the dope and mean firing and then we'll talk about excitement, verses happiness, open, mean fires. When we get an unexpected reward right, youth on the savanna you find food bam doubled. Fires and says: remember where this was it's not firing randomly. It's only firing when you find food, but if you keep going back to that sport is not going to keep firing when you get the food, it's gonna start firing in anticipation of doing it and that's where craving comes in its as go get the go get the food go, get the food, so we aren't we think about? You knew cake that doping mean starts firing and says, will do what are you doing sitting on the couch? The cake is in the kitchen, and so we get answered our pants to get up. We get restless, we get that urges to go eat. The cake says

the true for drinking for any other type of addiction right. We hear something we see something we smell, something. We even have a thought that can trigger that craving that makes it go out and consume food to about anything else, that is there to get us not content but to get us to two theoretically survive now win its co opted by something that anti survival. That's, get into trouble, that's where addiction come from, but it was opposite survival mechanism, what we in modern day is that you people equate excitement and that lack with getting us get up off the couch and do something so you see billboards, they say oh, you could have. This car you're only driving this car. So we have this. Urge really, oh, I'm not good enough. I need to go earn money to buy car more I need to go I that, due to those clothes ready to eat that food or I need to date that person and then I'll be happy so Whitworth

constantly driven in this hamster wheel of excitement. Driven must get. This must get this the put a psychologist, actually described this in terms of a hungry ghost. Have you heard this now ok, so picture a goes. The ghosts isn't as important as the anatomy of this ghost. So it's gotta, big mouth, tiny, narrow, long, esophagus and a huge stomach. So and try to shove as much food in his they can, but that belly, is never going to be full. Can you to this end, yeah yeah, so that feeling of never good enough is what were literally fed, unlike what does get more just get more just get more, even with money. I think it was John D Rockefeller who is quoted as saying you know. Somebody asked him how much money is enough. Be said just a little bit

were you. I was a little bit more pretty Kommeni Seigneur the I hear he was one of the richest dues in America at his time. So here you were being said that excitement equals happiness, but when we really look at it carefully, its anti happiness because were constantly restless being urged do stuff to make ourselves happy and then we're on this treadmill forever juice it's more and more craving vs excitement elicits having an excitement and craving have very similar characteristics in the sense of dead? How that rests? strive second adrenal component to it right, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, there's excitement it's kind of a clear end of the spectrum, but I want to state that clearly, because a lot of people don't realize that excitement is actually that that great she doesn't feel that great is just exciting ride. Right right,

but again so many of our favorite memories involve that state of being right so going to an amusement park when your little you looking forward for writing. You be an expert on this track. All these things are like For me, I was an excitement junkie. So, for me you know- and I wrote a whole chapter book about this, I was addicted to romantic love. You know that my thing and colleges like have. How can we have more remains? How can we make this date even more romantic and just think of all the different songs that are written about love and in a what's whose love it's. What was it you saying it perfectly Margaret knew what ever hear me say that say she has no craving for my way. I do have a question about this relationship based because I do think people

feel when they are in a new relationship or if they got on a day. There are evaluating? Does that person me excited am excited to talk to that person. Did butterflies, Vodafone, utterly nether anxiety right, like it's actually just that. You feel anxious that you did your unsafe because you don't know today or how it's gonna be they love you yeah. It translates into site, men to which people chase, but actually is negative they apply in theirs. Actually, some good nor imaging research around that showing that in early romantic love, relationships like when people are right at the beginning of, of relationship at activates there pathways in their brain brain part called the ventral, mental area, which produces dope mean it activated and it also activates a part of their brain called the post using cortex, which is itself referential part of the brain, because

their early stages a romantic love. It's it's not about the connection it's about me. Am I gonna get that cases person gonna like me, you know it's. It's me me me me me my loves actually study. This they serendipitous Lee, because we found that that's the same brain region, the quiet down when people are meditating, and in particular, quiet down when people are doing a type of meditation called loving kindness which is related to love. But the selfless quality, a love, the Greeks called this a got, they rate is lit, love towards. humankind as compared to the euro. Which is romantic, love So it's really interesting to see that these things line up where the selfish type of love, the me type of love activates, this self reverential network, it acted it's! These rewards enters, whereas self less love deactivate them. You know, and in funding aside, my mom, when I would

a new romantic relationship, my mom, if they dont, tell me her name for three months, because you, just in the infatuation stage. We lost more than three months then tell me your name because it's it's outlasted the me phase, but then ok. So if content men, which is essentially sake. Safety at some point longshore will sure we'll get there, but the interrelationship its once. You hit the point you feel save with each other. Why do people once they get there like? How affairs go back to wanting the excitement, the I think no one answer to this. But one of the answers to this is that they're probably lacking something I and whether it's a feeling of connection or there. Lot of insecurity that often comes in when people are chasing affairs, and things like that were there looking to feel alive you raised is theirs, is exciting quality of the chase?

you know of the forbidden and all this stuff where their they're lacking something fundamental in their relationship and often it's because of them their water. go into this, but maybe there feeling in secure or their feeling that there could be a gazillion things that are making them feel this lack where if they actually look at that relationship and look at what it feels like to be truly connected with somebody truly selfless way if just look at what it feels like. We are constantly trying to hold on to things verse when we're just being generous. A generosity itself feel so much better and it gets us into contentment and land where, like oh, when I'm I give I'm not expecting anything in return truly generous puts into this open connected quality with others, whereas when we're constantly worrying about it, my getting enough love there,

is holding on this contracted quality to that they actually doesn't feel very good, and so, of course, our brains. That doesn't feel good do something to make yourself feel better and, interestingly, that that lack that restless quality says: oh wait, a minute. Does this share? O excitement has a similar quality. Let me go find excitement, and so we might actually fall into that simply by by our brain, trying to help us survive. So to speak interest it so fascinating to hear you say that and of course, then, just while you're talkin kind of evaluate my thirteen year relationship- and I guess, if there's a side of the equation, that yes, I could be way better at it in a probably many of us could be. Is building the time to be mindful and aware of what you're actually getting out of it, because it just become such a habitual pattern in this working machine and if you have kids, that only exacerbates that

You could really miss the moment where you like wait. What am I getting out of this whole thing? Let's try to focus and be aware of and feel and experienced the rewards gazette taking kind of get pretty quiet on the volume side. You know they can An interesting Lee, our brains are pretty good at turning up that amp game, where we can actually pick these up moment to moment is just that. We we passed the by yeah You can. I also dovetails in all your what earlier, which is the relationship itself to be. Fish it gets filed into that subconscious. Almost like the relationship itself as a habit, and requires no thought in it, and it's quite easy to just be on the road is like. Okay, that's sorted! This is a. This is a system that that is now functioning, and I and now I can concentrate on something else, Monica. You might have even mentioned this, that safety peace becomes familiar and comfortable, and so we take it for granted yeah. Whereas

could be looking at our relationships every day and just even a moment of touch or even a moment's, where our partner has thought about us or said something nice instead just letting that pass by just take a moment to reflect on that and revel in that savour it. We're like! Oh, what's this field, it deals pretty good. We add up short nomads throughout the day and then we're realizing. While this is a very rich, wonderful relation, without having to like go to the extremes and have the year these days strive again date nights or what not, which we can certainly do on top of it, but happens every day. If we just take a moment to be aware of that, we can see that this as you know what I think of as the bigger better offer. One thing I had to do in the armies, and I did it because it was life or death for me, but for the last fifteen years, when I wake up, I have a ritual I do. I have to daily

up and remind myself, I'm an attic that I will never ever have a beer and it'll be normal for me, and I learned the hard way through many many relapses that I can't take that for granted. I have to daily remember that's the condition I have, and I have to put a few men send to it not at time, but I have to every morning Roma as I start my day, hey you you're an annex, I'm recognizing my guilt in that I never wake up and go like. Oh, you have this relationship and it needs to be on the forefront of your mind. Cuz. It has all this value to your life and you need to know it's interesting. I don't certainly don't treat, but my relationship like I do my addiction but so might be something to explore. Even and it's not like it has to become a ritual. All the rituals can be really helpful for setting anything is inhabit like you're talking about but even as you go throughout the day, you could just keep him in the back of your head. Let me just keep my eyes open fur.

Things sweet that small that's happened in our relationship in some people practice at night, where they reflect back on their day to do a little bit of gratitude practice as a way to help. Remember some of these moments. But even as we go through the day, doesn't take any extra time to simply just well, that was a nice thing. You know, or are we just stood together in and looked into each other's eyes for a moment as we made coffee, he noted TAT. They were waiting for it. It poor anyway, so there it is all about, and then they start adding up in a way that- then take much effort, feels grades and helps us really set that really, nice solid foundation of connected contentment? Okay, so contentment. So for me I would define content and is basically just the absence of craving just me fine, not insatiable desire, thought frame. Yeah

I think that's a beautiful definition and it suddenly different, then satisfaction right. So? How would you describe satisfaction real satisfaction to me to me would be do need any more again. Almost only achieve it with food now that's one of the only times words like I just go, go, go and tell my ok. I don't think I could eat any more, so So interesting that you put we used. Food is example, because that is what we specifically studied. We were setting up this craving tool for our right now up and we were choosing between the word satisfied in content and we there's some pilot testing and what we found was exactly what you're describing which is weakened a bunch of food until we're satisfied, I can't eat any more but don't necessarily feel content when we're satisfied I already knew quite often when I

The feeling of satisfaction. I now have probably done something that was off of my goal. We ask intent, says you know, I don't need this to be happy. I don't need it. More to be happy. Yet this way However, a word for this: they have this week that they really value in Sweden, which is not too much not too little and after that there culture there aiming at this this precise moment between not much not too little, which I just think what a grey cultural aspiration compared to more more more yeah. Yeah here is more more more more more yeah. How much is enough just a little bit more. It sounds like a great thing and it reminds me of balance. You know not too much not too little. It's like your right on this balance, point Where are your nigh either? trying to run away from things that are unpleasant or hold on two things that are plus it. Is where these these basic learning

and Isms come in. You know something's pleasant. We want more of it something's unpleasant. We want less of it. Can we act. We find this balance where were content with, meeting more or needing to get away from things that are unpleasant, so How do you is someone who designs absent stuff? How do you incentivize contentment, because again it's only something that was a byproduct of this other way of life. I had to adopt for a survival and then only through experiencing that I recognize the sublime nature of it, but I don't think anyone could have sold me in like not, and I can feel thing. You hang on winding more enough. It's nothing new incentivize. Now and I don't think you can incentivize it in a way that the typical came a vacation industry does so game. Application is about lack it's about trying to say the government's estimates about novelty. You know it's about all these things, that's why they're levels in games, that's where their surprise in all

things are set up to Jack the dopamine system when you're in help him and ergic mode you're, never gonna, be content has dealt a means not about contentment. It's about drives. Do things ring. So when we looked at that, our aim was not to try to incentivize things but to help people find their natural rewards and what We found and we're still studying this. Ok, you re doing experiment, positions, right, experiment together, a chaos so who with two categories and then we're going to get to the reward peace so start with its use, fear or anxiety so pick one of those and tell me if it feels more closed or more open. So both of you closed be restrictive, closed club yeah how bout joy open for me yeah yeah ago, how about connection Guy endless to me

it is a great one of her? I guess if I may, really, honestly, I feel I feel closed, like encapsulated, Not absolutely yeah, I guess often encapsulated to me- signifies safety correct when you were, how to safety Theo closed her up in safety feels club ok, so you like swaddle, cuddle the ass cosy. Yes, I have curiosity closed her open for both of you open an open yet ok, so, let's use uses simple ones like curiosity about Kind Does it feel closer open, open closed yeah. So here's what you think I honest spills- clothes the out. I have this weird, the eye.

Doesn't feel bottomless. Ok! So let's pick some of the simple category, so I heard anxiety and fear both up close to you both and then curiosity enjoy both felt open. Now again, so now, let's go this in simple reward terms, one. Would you rather have just the category of close verses, open up open. Okay, so there's that without even finding these things notice how I specifically didn't define them, but you can new this intuitively from your own experience, thinks they feel Open or more rewarding zizi there, like I'd, rather have something it's more open, signifying that is more rewarding, so too our brains, there's an intrinsic reward, value hierarchy, kind of like that chocolate hierarchy, that's already set up things that are clothes don't actually feel as good as things that are more open.

here. We don't have to incentivize people toward open because the instead of its structure is already set up in our brains and for Finally, although law, term optimism short term pessimism. Cropper activity, is something that seems to be in our dna. Even Darwin wrote about this before DNA was even discovered, Paul, Ackerman famous emotions researcher has talked about this as well, where I cooperative III is something that we all kind of in us, and it feels better. You know like we're working as a team as compared to when we're trying to just you know, be simply have people pay attention when they eat and these So this is something we have we don't have to incentivize. All we have to do is give people the tools to learn to become more aware how rewarding

his verses another, so as an example with our eat right now, as we simply have people tension when they eat and they see how on rewarding it is when they eat, because the anxiety or stress, and they see how rewarding it is to stop eating when their full and all they find types of food to be more rewarding. So for me, I lost all interest in eating gummy worms because when I paid attention they just takes his colleagues is petroleum I then, and then I start really paying attention to things like blueberries and blueberries. Just have this natural goodness to them. Like this perfect balances, sweetness and you're not urging me to eat more yeah so they're just like that. researcher you pointed out, you know like this is actually many good because it doesn't make us want to crave

so. We don't have to actually designed this into our apps. All we need to design into the Alps is train people to become aware, but isn't there just structurally so that that midnight is very immediate, focused and of frontal. Cortex is long term so, even when you say like your curious about it. The reward! Isn't? U dont, feel good after you, two buncher gummy worms that you do you're good if you eat a bunch of blueberries, isn't that in issue of a of time horizon when you're evaluating it like forest. the evaluation to be something? That's twenty minutes from now, as opposed to right now I would say yes to So, let's unpacked out a little bit more is thing called delayed, discounting where So, on the. Why axis is the reward value and on the x axis? Is time so over? time were more or less. key to discount things,

There are more rewarding here, it's like will give a greater reward in the future for aid smaller reward immediately. and the classic studies around this are you I'll give you a hundred and twenty dollars in a week, verses I'll, give you a hundred dollars right now, rhino Well, I'm enough, I'm never see you again. I want a hundred bucks now, even though a hundred twenty dollars in a week is a pretty good interest rate. The ass, so we'd rather have you know, that's the bird in hand, verses dinner, two in the bush, our brains are set up for immediate rewards because we don't know we're gonna be alive tomorrow, basically from a survival standpoint, rights so we will favour immediate rewards like you're saying and if we pay attention was used LE very versus gummy warm if we pay attend. right now we re and actually start to see that there is a difference in the reward value in this work. It's too

you know the gummy worms have this for me. Have this uber sickly We quality to them that If we want to eat more, I couldn't actually, Gunnar worms in the house, because I would eat the whole bag and one sitting the the idea is enough for me. I would you the whole thing in Zambia. What list are out of the house, and it wasn't actually that pleasant, but it was a driven type of eating which doesn't actually feel that good. So it didn't taste that good, it didn't feel like good, and it was driven, is more of an addictive thing whereas with blueberries, I have libraries in my refrigerator right now, because I don't eat them all in one sitting I can eat a handful and be pretty content the the immediate reward when I pay attention to it is actually there blueberries are actually more rewarding in the moment, then gunning worms are in a number of other factors. It's only when I pay attention to those rewards that actually start to see it as compared to that zombie like driven quality of just eating the hope

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me. I even is your saying it just for me, as I gummy worms, but Lucy was Oreo Z. I just in my mind after really be aware of why the blueberry was as good as the Oreo procedures on this it right here is tat, requires so much awareness, yeah, ok, so the primary hack, for you right is, is mindfulness is that is that our way out of all this stuff? Yes, so is actually trains us to pay attention that its primary goal is to help us pay attention the focus it- I just say I think, of mindfulness. As you know, we were walking around our entire lives, not knowing how our minds work and they Michael is helps us learn how our minds worked. So we can see these patterns, so we can see these cause and effect relationship, so we can see when we're being pushed her pulled in. So you ve picked a perfect time too

in the field you are and because we have FM our eye machines now right, like everything pry, as you said, psychiatry in psychology, so very new science, and for so much of that time they are blind one. We can observe anything, that's actually happening in the mind, but now we're in this area were starting to really see what's happening, in the mind. So what what's happening with meditation. Why is it actually good for us physically? Well, We could spend hours talking about this, our focus on some of the things related to habits in our brains. I am because those are some of the things that my lab is studied. My fur studies were actually with addiction. So with our common cocaine use disorders- and I was just looking to see in know, mindfulness training actually help with hard core addictions end. Our first study. We found that it was ass, good, ass gold, standard treatment in helping people not real stay out, holler cocaine use disorder

while pilot studies. So we did our next study where we did this larger randomize controlled trial for smoking cessation. We found that it was five times better. Five it's better than gold standard treatment and helping people quit what asked the gold standard treatment for smoking cessation at that time. It was American Lung Association has a programme called freedom from smoking, It still used it still, probably one of the more widely used programmes. but we found that my fullest training could actually help people more than that in an mechanistically. We figured out that it was actually decoupling that urge from action, so people could learn to be with their craving. That's what mindfulness helps people is like. Oh here's, a craving I can view at this rather than a visually act on it. So when we saw those significant results, we started asking. Going on in the brain, and I said by studying experience, meditated people had been meditating a long time

bearing them to people. We talked to meditate that morning that we were standing their brains. This is where stumbled onto the default network, which is that the past year, single it we talked about earlier, is hub of the development network, which is involved in self referential processing. Basically them me part of the brain, the go right yeah, you got any doubt: nets in the individual from everything else and yet that close verses open, namely we play with earlier when we're closed down or controlled. That's actually a marker that says, you can look at this. at ourselves and see conceptually. This is who I am but there's another component, which is the spiritual self and so getting back to that close verses open ending the we play with earlier when we're closed down or contract. Did that play a marker. That says this is where I am because we feel this is me, and this creates

boundary or this barrier between myself and the rest of the world. So I'm here the western world out there so This network, the default one network gets activated when Basically, whenever we get caught up in our experience when we get caught up in a craving when we get caught They worry when we get caught up in shame talking about shame spirals, shame is when we feel oh, I'm a bad person and that doesn't fit expanded it feels contracted. You know feels closed down yeah. We feel very isolated in our shame. Rights, yes, were certainly not sharing it with everyone else right exactly exactly so this network, activated with all of these contracted qualities of experience. In fact, a gets really quiet. It gets deactivated when people are meditating, whether it just basic breadth, awareness, meditation, which is a common mindfulness practice. Whether it is

kindness practice where one is kind of touching into this feeling of warmth and well wishing towards oneself and others. or even some of these practices we call choices, awareness, we're somebody's just being aware of whatever's arising in their when seeing hearing feeling thanking all those things. Now. We're gets really quiet and experience meditated. We haven't had Anderson Cooper from sixty minutes when he was doing. I show I'm meditation he came into our lab, where we put him up where this e g, nor a feedback rig in our lab, where we can actually give the people feedback from their own brains in real time, rather meditating tax it. So he did this on camera and first, we said ok, think of a time when you're anxious it actually went off. The charts, Georgia, poison. Ivy mother programme is a very sharp arrow in his quiver

yeah yeah, so he was is pretty familiar that territory and then he started meditating and he'd been meditating for the last month like like he was on fire. You know who's managing is like and get them cab. Meditate gonna play a medicine. He was just fire with it, and so we are measured in that brain region got really really. Quite. You can actually see this on film on sixty men, so here we can press firstly, line up this brain regional activity with a cell referential part of the brain gives activated when we get caught up in our experience it gets deactivated when meditating, also. I mushrooms right is Might Michael Pollens, big guess: yeah gonna destroys the sense of self in a helpful way. The I think of it is drawing a hand originate in the brain, but where it blows at the south, it is actually how Michael and I became friends was. He was starting to write about this. What he's doing early research for his book, He came in visited my lab and actually we helped him up to the same feedback machinery that we Ugh Anderson Cooper up to you,

and he writes a little bit about this in the book. I don't want to give us spoiler about that, but too much, but basically even calling experiences when he had been shrimps could bring back. Feeling of open expansion, yeah deactivate his brain activity without him even needing to be on the mushrooms themselves. Yeah, There is great bliss in the decision, action of those barriers right between ourselves in nature and our environment and our friends Family writers, there's joy there would you say it is reporting I would say it's the ultimate version of open right. that I'm just bleeding out and everything else see adds the kind of the apex of openness. I would say

I totally agree that there is actually a concept you both probably familiar with it called flow. May I go on I oh yeah yeah, I cry. I chased states of flow. I've been there for us is a state of flow which is well over. So just an example. Winning you're totally engrossed in a conversation lose all sense of time. We lose all self consciousness because we're not worried about. What am I going to say we're just like this is so fine. This exciting, MRS this is fascinating, I would even say exciting. Fascinating or Terry Club, yes, Korea, so We actually had people get an hour every scanner and we're one person report that she got into a state of flowed simply by paying attention to our breath and our post your singularly activity bottomed out. You could watch this in real time. So here we can even line this up in Reno this state flow in

time with brain activity and it fits perfectly right so Six, I'm a high talks about flow as it is being selfless right. So if you move from contracted quality of experience- and you start expanding and expanding expanding at something you lose a sense of where you and in the rest of the world begins the also and actually started note. Is that all you know he's contraction, expansion, the expense it feels better so when we can start to the conditions that support flow weakens or to support those more more and curiosity is one of my favorite ones. There is, I think, of it as a superpower. Fact last. Follow is leading a retreat with women's Olympic Water, Paolo team and their first in a week, long silent retreat that they'd ever done in their coats was really. Well, he wanted to help them with mental training they just one though

big old, not all they won. T Panam Games like two weeks before we run a retreat, so there you know, and they want the world championships up as well, do they're doing all right. Let's say yes, but he wanted to really help them, develop you to learn more about their minds, and so we, Teaching them made a call leader, Doktor Robin Bout Dat and I were teaching them. These concepts run curiosity where they can bring curiosity into the moment when they're, starting to feel closer contracted like if they're out there behind a couple of points in a game instead of worrying? Oh no, are we gonna lose them a curious like, oh, what's going on, how do we needed GINO? change of our strategy or whatever, so they can into this space of flow as page, a worrying which is gonna, move them in the opposite direction yet zone I gum curiosity, is also synonymous with solution. So interesting.

because of you, if you start focusing on like we're, losing fuck we're fucked now you're now, you're really focusing on the mistakes. Those are in the past, but if you curiosity about what we could be doing better it just, I think, lends itself to solution here. and that also points to the difference between the ass versus the journey right. Yeah yeah, so the team this really interesting comment they were talking about? I think this is the PAN Am Games and a couple of the athletes had got. Viruses, some stomach flew on the Thank you not in so it's really quarantine them for the rest, the teeming get sick. Whereas So what what's? What was most rewarding and they what wasn't winning the metals it was acts the journey. The struggle. That we all went on to gather him. That's what most rewarding to me as they were saying in so It's really focusing on the

the journey as the destination right? It's not me I have to win olympic Gold medal. It's well feels really good high, striving to gather in that's really. What flow is that, you know finding a solution in the process is like. Oh, I'm not worried about. What's going to happen, focusing on what's happening right now, let's followed this journey of discovery, and they discovery, becomes the solution every moment. well it in so many ways. As we're saying you have to kind of transcend some of this evolutionary hardware, but but then you also have to transcend our culture right, which is a capitalistic individualistic of gold medal, which is a layer that just as powerful as the biological layer, and it too needs friends sending right and aid too needs to be fought against it does it dies, and he It's interesting. You used the word fought against because its grammatically incorrect or because now, because

that is our even that's our capitalistic notion, which is you know, just push harder and this goes back today. We can't think our way out of bad habits. We can't think our way into happiness here. Secondly, we need to fight against this because that's the culture we also even the culture is in culture aided here, so we can ask ourselves will like feels better Fighting against capitalistic culture Well, what's it feel like to be content? What's it feel like to be generous and even- having into those in bringing awareness to those helps us find those? the bigger better offer that we naturally inclined towards without having to fight Europe. you're right it in. I just think the nature of human motive Nation is such that yeah you'd have to present an option, that's actually better than the gold medal ceremony. the commercial and for me, I more more believe the people, and in my own life I've experienced like. I say this

regularly is like on my death bed. Am I going to think about the movie poster and openly weaken our making to think about the four months with this group of a hundred people that resulted in that ensure dean. That thought for me is know our challenge is for other people, but for me I am so reward based in a reward chaser that I have to like hourly remind myself none Uno. Now, though, right is the is the reward it's easier and easier to remind ourselves of that. When we just perfect and they were what are it feel like to choose to work together on this film? You know Oh, how that feel, and just just room savouring that journey the help become more and more in the forefront of our minds so that we're not looking at the poster we're looking at will wait a minute who cares if it's a poster o this

the meaningful part in just that reflection helps us helps it stick in our minds. Moors like this is this is the juice here. This is the did the best part of life yet I think it applies to every single fields like there are a lot of people living there lives, which is I'm gonna sock this up in each ship for the next. Years so that I can get the management job. That will then liberate me and then the lonely land there to find out, there's yet to see your position that you could cover, and then you ll, eat shit and in Nina not enjoy any of that ITALY and up there and then bad news, you're you're on your death bed in and you know too late. so here's the irony is that the more we try to roll for everybody else and step on everybody else to get there the harder it is to get there but when we just sit back and enjoy the ride, we act. find that we become our creative. We become more productive, were less burnt out or more resilient because work

actually enjoying this. We don't have to eat shit, yeah our values, rising as we enjoy the process, which is counter intuitive, maybe ok for Aunt Ass, Dick. I have one more question I just wanna get out, because we don't really have many neurosciences on here, and I feel that in the the old of neuroscience it could lend itself to feeling like well, don't have free will cause we're, just like it, goals firing? If you must know SAM Harris, agree if you're, yes into meditating right right? I am obviously is kind of a proponent of this theory, Yangtze also really into meditating. So that's kind of interesting well, because I wonder, if do you feel like the only way to have any control is awareness, because the wise were just chemicals firing for not being turned into all. These react. Yeah yeah

short Answer- is yes without awareness, weird, basically, just automaton swear, it's ones and zeros pleasant, unpleasant, pleasant, unpleasant, pleasant, unfair so awareness is wet. Helps us start to get back into the driver, see yeah core. There was a great question three well, I am curious because The world were living in his so dramatically different than the one we were designed to live in and there are some limits. I had assumed how much we can combat. with mindfulness in step Do wonder if one of our future goes this ain't going anywhere? The trajectory of technology is not slowing. It's not! You are not going to banish it. Will we start augmenting movie update this hardware with auxiliary things, to help us deal with all these new challenges of this very frenetic world, where we're gonna run along a group of a hunter be born, a group of seven billion were aware of the seven billion we're dealing with their ups and doubtless there just so many craze.

the things that I do wonder if we are going to eventually excel. The notion of some kind auxiliary help with our brains, Do you think that is the future yeah, I think interesting. I think there's a combination of this where there are probably places where machines will maybe never be able to apply the maid humans, if you look at that ass machines, there a good adds a new kind of stimulating a gazillion me. Is it once and so it may be. That was a deeply the because, Moreover, what? But then, when they started doing these tournaments, where you could combine humans with machines, humans are much better its strategy than machines, and then they start to beat the pants off machines So here I think we can augment things where when we need simulations where you can stimulate things The machines are, can be really helpful. We can augment things outweigh, but at the same

time. I dont know ever be able to approximate the human experience these that in our lifetimes around that with a long term. Thinking the broad picture, the strategy move and I think what really makes us human? That's where creativity comes in that kindness comes in all these things. What was the movie ex machina? Where love? Why no talk about I? I won't spoil the end, but you know it's a great example of where you'd have you just feed us into an into an hour a learning algorithm, we're gonna miss some things that really really important. Ok, so now to poorer. Where would people go to find your apps to help them curate in fairness in in start practising these kinds of things

cyber website called Doktor Jack dot com Georgi you D. I also urge you to channel the same name and on the website. People can find our apps here this anxiety, I called on winding anxiety. We haven't eating our feels very appropriate right now about four people: the anxiety yeah yeah totally, so people can find that they can find my book on that the websites of doktor, deejay De Dot, constantly the easiest they can follow. on Twitter, it a jug brewer. Do you d? Be are you w? We are. Those are probably the easiest places to find me so great to talk to you thanks for taking the time and such exciting work, I can't wait to follow you and all the developments that are coming our way. Thank you, my pleasure I'm going to save you now. My favorite part of the show the fact check, with my soul mate,

brewer brewer didn't. Can you even think of another good appetite YAP I'm guy we had a neurologist on the I scientist very good time, for you and all your thoughts of neural pathways and that's right, transmitting to ask em all the questions I wanted about. Your element yeah. I thought maybe that would not be productive for us, but I had questions we should get a nurse right is doctor. I'm here I can really purveyor so you're allowed. No, you are saying I'm surprised we ve got north raised doctor that basically just make treat me real time in the interview. Okay, so Jack, he talks about the two bodies problem, which is a dilemma for life partners in academia relating to the difficulty of both spouses obtaining jobs?

at the same university or within a reasonable time getting distance from each other? That would be very hard. It's like is that it's like acting. I guess and I really like the idea of professors be married. First me somewhere reason. I don't know why I dont care of machinery are married to one another tat doctors. I guess I want actors to be married to you, because I- Imagine that their work is so esoteric would take another doktor to really he got em. What therein president interesting, I like the idea of a doctor. With somebody, doesn't know anything about medicine, so they can help benefit yeah exactly you only need one doktor and the pair will those John enjoy your John Pharaoh he's a genius because he went out got himself Georgia who is,

emergency room doctor in I would watch them raise kids and I thought anything and I haven't they get. Let anything happen this joyous year. I noticed, fix everyone right, that's what I want. I would also save no she's rousing ain't, gonna, cardiac red Flannel, anything about the best person have around. They were talking about that. The other day my friend, Laura yeah, an eye because you know we're in this group of all of our friends and where a single, although now she has a quarantine, boyfriend ya, know a blouse Look in the water you make your facebook. What's the term officials, no they're, thereby making. This of course is something the other day about him, oh yeah, by any, who, generally where this the ones we were saying who who's we date, who's gonna

add something new to the group and what are the categories? I'm really glad you guys we're thinking that way we heard earlier or trying to be other union any are doctor that way. I can like fuck around on these vacations and anymore about what I've been saying that I owe I'd like a doktor and the group for sure, especially people are doing back clubs and stuff off the house into the pool hanging out we adopted there and with somebody said this was on a girl's. Marco Polo Barack Obama if your listening, I love some free, I think trying to make me pay now. not letting me do two times and it's a problem while so that, by the way, what a great way to monetize that because You gotta go to time once you're used to going to times going back is by the remaining of double speed. Yes, if you use marble, is a fantastic out in a really is phenomenal, but you'll become immediately aware of how slow everyone I guess there

what's out its maddening, yes, they need a quadruple speed. I believe you have a triple who, in this payment pack worth it properly, as I It is by and bye everywhere we, your birthdays around the corner by a year worth of fast warning, throw your friends we have it I'd, be happy to buy, therefore turbine ever Kristen for her. I think it's I don't come in seven dollars. I dont think you need to buy the empress. Nobody rigidity thoughtful. I'm so far. for there is no right- or I thought about this idea, what you think about that you shouldn't we should be doing down here. Aren't you gonna, learn caught it, and maybe the viewers well yeah access ideas, ok, they're listeners, now viewers tax here's what I thought the other day. What would you think about this? A book like five. rooms at a hotel, I'll get a babysitter get on the same floor of light nice hotel here in the city, maybe the peninsular, something half will be like the Richardson the Hansen's you ambled.

All we're like bathrobes and we'll get room service and will aim bad. Maybe we're gonna pull me. We won't yeah, that's a lovely because that what she would want to be lay in bed for seven hours and reader net and do all that shit than she could check in and out with you guys you wanna be social. She could she didn't write. I think that's a good idea. I think she wants some just peace yeah, I'm! So that's wonderful! I like that idea. Ok pursued a little further. And I have an idea. I'm scared to say: I'll say it may, because maybe you're right? Maybe someone could help begins number here, those what if someone Amazon or something it is mobile. Emilio about this year out there don't be a fuckin deadlock issued a reader dm. So I guess I'm not worried it. Just save. You know her of we're all friends, don't fuck! This up, yes, said that She was in Paris over a year about a year ago, and there was this

chandelier and then she wanted very badly and was really on the fence about which I can finish judgment started, was too expensive. I like her. Google and this she did not end up getting it, and since we had so many conversations. She regrets it and it was at a then it's a into the chandelier. It's gonna be a pawn shop, is they're gonna be hard to track down, but I'm gonna. Do it you're saving the day and we're gonna get it. I really hope it so valuable. That's my I'm worried got bought if you bought it. Listen, aren't you buy. Can you give it to us because it's her birthday, this is the exact kind of challenge for you, though I love it. Yet this is your sweet spot. I really word tracking something down. Sleuthing gum, shoeing back Veronica,

we only be appropriate that run Mars would get something that had to be run Mars or Herbert. That purely about works out. It doesn't work out, shall divorce s, I guarantee I'm gonna hate it. Does it you're not gonna, like yeah. I already know that I already know that she made the right decision and in via know why I just now I can tell She buys things if now now she wants it. She has said it so many times on it were that wars going. I think you should go in your bathroom. Oh, Can I won't like a flood of zero but it'll be over the time it will be. As one look it's beautiful, I won't look up using new. I gotta remember, like She likes it and that's all ok he's over his dad was dead.

ok and then I can. I interested aware that phrase came from. Oh, I didn't really find it the gas and then we'll yeah. Let's guess I think it's a newspaper term. I think it's people who got assigned beats. You know they call that in journalism, if you have those science bu of the financial beat, I think it's a beat that doesn't generate any stories that you've been given this completely deadbeat and then that just ended up because newspaper writer, fact, our globe wheels that it it just emanated from there'll as if it emanating from sports ever scenes are like the sports related. Don't strike out right. I'm guessing is coming from from the newspaper world interesting, but how does the Equator Derby parent

we'll just people, probably reusing. Well, that's a deadbeat, that's a deadbeat, you know something useless and then I just got transferred to deadbeat tiring day thing that off The only other thing I can think of that has beads, while others walk? I too more there's beats in car patrols. You have different beat. You could have a deadbeat. like there's nothing going so similar similar, and then I guess you could say musically, like that's dead beat it doesn't add anything. Besides I'm going with the newspaper gas, I like a newspaper, guess when I you're dead, be just the sound of it. I hear like physical, yes or no Debbie dad. as mean that no, I know that I know it doesn't mean that at all your absent exactly, but when I hear the words dead end

Beat our sounds more like a violent and somebody was beaten to death, will then be right. That would be a sea, so dead beat beat dead. That's the Fraser Nato is the person was beat debt while she had a life, it's that our young flip it I'll get. The legal definition defines deadbeat parents as pan yeah, like that. It's parents is not really a fair price. say, Debbie Dad, even the about fair hookup honour, resent we're all in his it was that and yeah. Ok, the legal definition defines deadbeat parents as parents, of either gender who have freely chosen not to be supportive parents or who do not pay their child, for obligations. However, the label has become so generalise at the freely chosen aspect is too often forgotten. Most of the fathers lump in his dead beat dad's are not dad's unwillingness. their children they are simply unable to afford the child support when sixty six percent of all child support not paid. My father's is due to an inability to come

but the money calling all the dad's who miss payments deadbeats is painting with far too broad of a brush interesting, My father never pay transport till he any drove a Gordon, had he was technically a dead letter. I do, but I love. Where is the truth? That's where a lot of my highest and that's the thing I can make peace with he was lovely sweet to me. The aim is also to be a lot of work to do. You love me, but it's hard for me to reckon while the fact that emphatically jails work because he was always on the verge of not having any money. You spam, always as a rule of them. If he had written a book on finance, it would have been spend a hundred and seventy percent of what you make that was. So there were periods of his life where he actually made a ton of money. I get any made almost a million dollars. Your emitting, I am Ninety eight,

he went immediately bought a millionaire has a Jaguar two armies Bobby he spent more than he had this gang. your apartment in Chicago, overlooking the river you may not be forced to pay. That's what my mother never took him the court, that's what would have happened. She could have taken him to court for not paying child support. She gonna reported him Ray and she just never did Ok, we'll speaking up in the eighties, how many single moms by nineteen eighty, the number of single parent families stood at five point: nine million, which represent an increase of seventy one percent during the Seventys, the rate of increase slowed significantly during the eighties, although the number of one parent families continued to increase Well, my parents and got divorced nineteen. Seventy eight, oh so they were part of this great. I was still one of very few think we were the only found

beyond our block really at a single parent yeah. It's so amazing how its chair I mean, but it was really segregated economically. So export acres was pretty nice. It was like middle class in everyone's married, In all my friends who I like taken out, the poor kids from Lasalle Gardens and all these different mobile home parks and all those peoples, parents were divorced or it makes thence right. If you only have one income coming in your most likely have less money, that's true, and it is other factors but yeah yeah I'd, be the alcoholism raiders higher. I think the domestic disturbed you know, there's a lot of things extremely married to low income that unfortunate re, but it's ok, acted right, Mimi leg. If your by yourself erasing three kids, that's maybe alone, or a boy, and I mean any, don't how you have one job on a very much money like maybe you're more willing to drink, and then it's a spiral, but I have to

then there is a really high correlation between low income in unwanted praying, cs, I dont think rich kids have merely as many unwanted, maybe he's yeah what exactly they are so that all feeds into itself born again, like health care like rich kids, get on birth control or have abortions, and there was just yesterday the Supreme Court. The Louisiana abortion case was a bunch of whores share these two applause where they say like you have to have the one of almost The hallways had to be long and are wide enough to support to hospital beds, passing each other at speed like something I never happen at any yeah in this one specifically wise. There had to be another type of high spittle within some range of the canaries? Something went wrong yeah, and I also think, maybe that those doctors also had to be resident doctors

at other hospitals, which is obsessed with the idea, but it was another positive Supreme court ruling. There's been yes Roberts year voted in his real allegiance, which is very admirable, is prey That's his yeah, like he won't let his opinion override president that he was basically deciding now. We ve decided this case. It was Robbie Wade, rises in opposition to Roby Way, but there was a case in Texas. I think more specific. That was very it was this exact. Ok, I think Roby weight is still like quo on that, Charlie Mafia, like that yeah anyway, so so that was good, but you know it's just you see how it all ties together right. So if the clinic can't be in a rural area, then people who are in poor areas can't get abortions, and then it's just this.

cycle go. It's all part of the same conversation we're having over and over again, where, especially like black people are again in these positions like that they can get out of so this was good. This was a good news for the support that systems guy told us. Whatever result, your scene is a perfectly design system to create that result. So if you dont like them, you can just wish the results are different. The system is Craig in them perfectly yeah the mean that you has been lying around is The system is not broken. It was built this way right, right, right, right, right, right, yeah, yeah, it works perfectly the to get the result that we're getting oh yes, you type, but the sixty minutes. Food chemist in I read this article and roof yeah they just actively look make an addiction. yeah and I'm gonna say I'm not. I would say I'm not is Google about food is, I think, a lot of my friends are here: I'm not like it.

You were Megan forbid. You ve done no sort of hers to feel good for sure. I guess what I'm saying is it's it's not cars per se unless someone who's like Anti GMO in all these different things? But, when I saw that I did think like, I guess, mummies Mummy backup we want to focus. My dolls go, get em. I guess that's what I'm saying that I have friends are probably want to make that illegal awry. So am I go? Get em get fat die whatever you Emily. You know that parties elaborate on tat now but don't die, but but you know, but it is our right to with that said. Dad. I'm watching me it's not unlike the technology in our apps where I was watching them and I realized we are defenceless, there are people that are much smarter than us and have a much better plan to trick your body that anyone would be powerless over illuminate the taste disappear. Me lisa me, but you can't compete Now, how can to individual compete with billions of dollars being spent to make you do this

So we get into this huge ethical question in it correlates currently two masks right. Yes, everyone technically has the right to common sense, die, didn't kill themselves by you do not have the right to kill, kill somebody areas through its true again, and I just want to be on record is saint. Look I'm way further on the right side of the spectrum about Corona, then all my friends, I've been wrong. Several times already have you have admitted to, but I say in my view stamina and was the riddles overran lashes. Get this thing going, protect the old people. All people, but no hospitals are starting to get really crazy here. They just sent out, like a brilliant, more sure, getting worse. Yeah, you know part of me: again the libertarian boredom use is like you know, all people are drastically out. Pacing the rest of the population firm

dying of this and I'm sorry I love my my mom. I lost my west grandparent recently, but I love my loved my gun, parents, it's on them to protect themselves. I'm sorry, it's part of me is like yours, let's at high risk, so you gotta, have you shit buttoned up, you gotta not interact with people that you gotta, but let me just ok that underlie telling you my position but still have to do the right thing ethically, even though I feel that way emotionally about it. I have to do the safest thing possible yeah. I would do everything can because some of those old people aren't gonna, do it and stubborn, and they have this that another reason why I should be benevolent enough to help and I'm gonna do that. I'm gonna go against what my instinct is due in there no arguing that a boat people at mass on

you're in a single digit percentage russian so as opposed to seventy percent. I guess I used my things like, oh god, I wish I was uses. No wonder they hate me your diabetic in Utah. I've insulin on you and you can eat a bunch of carbs right now. It's not my job to fuckin. Take all the cards. Are the restaurant or knotty carbs in front of you? The issue our job, to monitor your blood. Sugar. So if you are the ball to this disease, yet

how to protect yourself. That's not my job, but older people generally are the ones that need a little more help. Re ass, though I arrive, I need to help my grandma if I'm the one in charge of taking care of her, and I have to go to the grocery store, Tobias groceries and no one. There is wearing a mask, and now I am totally susceptible and I bring that to them there being careful, that's the best case scenario, but I could bring it to them but again and not to be a good, You know you shooting, hang with your grand. Until those vaccines, but but what, if they can't feed themselves, will then you can drop, should offer the door I mean you don't have to interact with the older people need more help. They just need Marty held, like my mom's sister, is living with my grandparents doing now, and that needs to happen that you're not like just wants to that. That needs to happen, and so, if my aunt gets it, yes she'll probably be fine, but they

will not be fine and it's not a choice. As for a lot of people in a lot of people live no word privilege, we can be distant. and what we can do, that a lot of people don't have that luxury there, a big family living in one house- Andy, you can't ray you know, so it is up to us to have some social responsibility to help the people who are not in the positions were yeah. You know my friend has a right now I don't he's all story now or those who go off road in a hot, my friend is a music producer and he and I were supposed to go off roading and is all set and then call me the day before he's like I'm so sorry, but I have to fly to Miami Miami. Some big hip hop artist, wanted him to come record the next morning and he was there for a few days and then he came back and when he got back egos YO, they do I don't give a fuck town bear yet no one had blank Bob Bob and then he said Why is there so? We have

right now and I being checking whether Missy, like you know how it is, I guess good United at my breathing hasn't been affected, which is good, but he says that the day before he was so fucked up that his wife was talking whom in he couldn't you say, I kind of begin another language, as I am going downhill, went to bed woke up the next morning. There was like oh it passed, I feel back to normal is excited. His wife makes him his favorite meal, pork chops with this mushroom gravy and Ngos. Honey. You change the recipe now it is. I now is a gay did what do different honey. I didn't do anything their basic, oh, my god. Haste tat he can bring me a strawberry. She brought strawberry he not being used no smell in total, as of yesterday now our return.

See what are you ready this? If we don't know all the things you I m sure it all return, he'll be fine, but will that scary? I hope he feels water. Well anyway, it's important social responsibility. Now again that's the whole reason I laid up. My whole thing is I'm tellin you have what I would want to do tat, but I am saying there is I'm for individual rights, and there is a time to get over that yeah yeah, The answer, gonna be a year. Are your life here in a Fucking Year of your life of eighty years, hopefully yeah that you had where mask the house at the risk of getting into a fight with you which were or going to, but I Also you do have to weigh the economy. You have two weigh what percentage of GDP drop will result in which amount of death, and then compare that pretend collateral death against what the death would have been from corona,

the EU is responsible. You have to think of that. If the cure is worse than the disease, if we end up killing, people could be bargaining screen for cancer and are not getting their their vaccines on time and all these other things. If that number ends up being worse than crowd, then logically tells we gotta just eat corona and not because it it'll be a net smaller death. Ok,. With all that sad, even if that were true, you wearing your master places has no impact on any other near. You know it just doesn't yeah yeah. Yeah, I mean again it's it's a little more complicated than that. It's like it's it's disproportionately affecting one community and we, if we just let those PETE, die, that's not! Okay. We begin the black and letting me up. You get rich people Pharaoh better, like that's, that's true outside our should be, should be like the guy who, on the clippers,

journalists are alive announced earlier? It was a great man, better person, ok, the swedish word for not too much not too little LE gum LE gum, just the right, two o and then we'd a little about shrewd on line, and its it seems app pull for me to say, since we recorded this, I have tried them ass. You tried them and I don't even instigated did not even instigate it but I've, dear, to be a part of it yes and to be a baby Yes, this is over companion. I am very good, There is a sober companion there. It was we thank you said I was gonna, be you are right. I will say it again in a lot of ties that I'll say it again: rumble coronal roadway, Muslim, you're right. It was a of lovely experience and it was really cool. To see the world in a brain.

new way. Yeah it's best to take your standard world, you ve seen all the time that are familiar with and run recognize how much Your brain is in charge of assembling these photons in a way that you call reality yeah and then all was in your brain starts, assembling them in a different way in it different reality here, and it cannot be experts without their. He optimism meditated something back there to water, the street that you walked down. I know it was that was such a big take away For me, as I just kept thinking, I'm taking everything for granted- you like this is beautiful. Walk down the street. Everyone not me no, and all white and and I'm missing it. I'm your million every time. What I think what happens like the best way to explain- and we ve had a lot experts on here- talk about how your brain is fantastic. Yet, finally,

things into subconscious so operating the car you're, not thinking about driving the car. You just drive the carcass at the hall. Graham, is running the subconscious and were also great it getting rid of distraction. So we can focus on things we want, which means filing everything else into that white noise category in when you get unshed rooms, it's no longer white noise, all right they're! All these things that you ve learned to ignore yeah. Through design there. You now can see an I'd think, probably for different people. There is, front level of that right because new tight, but this on a couple episodes ago. I feel that I in my head all the time- and you feel that way to whom I mean my head so much that I'm not paying attention to the physical world around me very often, and yes, Sir this was such a different reality for me, whereas for some other people I think it wasn't, as extra

right? It's, not his big over a difference here. The other thing great at doing, and this is well documented in what's his name spoke, the ponds be up MIKE abounds book. Is your brains really really good at Comprehending you as an individual and then the world apart from you and around you, Shhh breaks down The barriers a bit of your sense of individualist in your sense of detachment, and you feel like when you touch of the pavement and you touch the our that you're really interacting with it like in a way. That is not. I This meant that it's like over this thing in I don't know, there's yeah, that's the thing also like about it is our kind of shatters. This absurd of your identity, yeah. Why, I guess

well, so I had a tough star. I got really scared everyone who I trusted looked bizarre and I was getting high and I had complete Lee forgotten. The most annoying part about doing drugs is that everyone GIS monitors how high they are for the first hour YAP. Are you almost three? Are you too? I don't want, will look at those trees as it is. We are currently doing that no disease are doing this. Is that leave doing this now? I can feel anything. I'm July the whole thing tat I was like. I need to step out we'll just feels high. So I went inside and I started playing with friendly ass. I was gone for twenty minutes and then it really hit you the at twenty minutes. He s in your like what the fuck you You're gonna help me in you abandoned me. I felt like you gave me draw well of a life like we ve been talking about this for years. I ve been trying to get me to do this for years and then need you.

Has woods at which a very regrettable, but of all the people that we're doing a euro zero percent high. You writing- I won't yeah, I know she's not even high and those conversations knowing I'm gonna go inside a high and then all of a sudden I looked down at my house funds because you had said when you do shrooms you'll get your hands a lot, so I was kind of checking in with my hands to see and they were normal and then all of a sudden, I looked, and then they shrivelled then to Graham hands right in front of my eyes and it was so startled and scary, and I thought my grandma now like I didn't know what was happening at Times grandma and immediately. I felt really unsafe and then abandoned you up.

Again, there is like layers of real life. This is why their therapeutic, like whatever the am you really fear it is going to be the loudest thing if it goes wrong. The it'll be the first thing that comes out like in re. like your soul, linked to my train and Christians train, and there is a certain amount of powerlessness in that yeah and why If we just disappear in your soul linked to it, and then I just disappeared, like it happened, I now it was bad I was crying, which was, I think, a bomber forever watching me. You came out. You came out to check on us, though I was like always coming back and then you came back and then you looked fuzzy real by the way when I, when I did come outside, you were crying and euro. Eleven

you know that you have. You were like you're you're, bouncing back and forth between Cry eleven has we were telling the story about Ryan's, dad calling aha ed I'm trying during that, because I was not literally paintings his crime, but then Rhine was like Monica hates, story, and then I started laughing because obviously I was not thinking about the store, without was like a funny thing to say, but I was still crying but when I got very involved, you're you're thinking you couldn't breathe yeah. I mean you're, really scared than I was like. Ok, we need Teresa. Yes, go out on the street, must take a walk and no one's ever stop breathing lunchrooms. Everybody knows Outbreathed, Europe think about breathing yeah, and then you came back I do it was so impressive because when I saw yours like all fuck man, I told her to do this. It's gone South yeah generally, when it south sounded stays here. Bach yeah, really kind of misled. You- and I

very pessimistic and bombed, and in future men's into the walk. Things started changing and then you just have this very beautiful. ideas. So sweet will you you say: listen you can choose for the next three hours. Things are going to be locked up yeah and you get to decide how you see it. So I Hours do enjoy a little and I did it and it was. It was really spectacular near there was really I was so happy on the ride home in the minivan, Chrysler Pacifica, better vehicle. someone untrue Marguerite only lab. Do I love it? I led I love I use go. You are right. This is into be missed, yeah. Why on earth I feel that I feel that those rules

I was in output that I'm like it if it hadn't turned around out have been as bad as, if you didn't end up getting your house after a few thousand goes there was that level or worse people, I passion yourself, but you shouldn't have, but it no Damn that I split voting, you really want high at all, everyone else was a little high new, simply weren't, like our those heads so bad a mile yeah, maybe not. Maybe it was more slow than I followed her. Another thing that use is relevant. Is there the initial idea was that people get a micro, those which I why was against. I was like there is really no point in micro dosing in my opinion. Now it may be for people like severe depression and they can do it still work into. I have no opinion on that, but for the experience I wanted you to have micro dozing, isn't it so it started? It

micro, dosing experiment. Yes quickly, no one felt anything. So then you guys doubled the Micro dose dose, which still as I do what I know you should do. Yes like have a cap and a stamp and welcome. Let's see what happens gas so after this is what else home made it play tricky for me to help navigate you guys, like you, guys, took the bill than to twenty Bowman's lady took another pill and then- and then I love people, how did I get a real sh rooms and bring some someone's chocolate? Martha makes this job you as they could have. Thousand around those I've been or one? What do you know? bet, but real mushrooms were procured in real form that I knew about yeah caps and stems. But at this point that's now seventy five minutes from when you guys took the floor in a month. You guys fuck. This whole business is done at the beginning. I, like I said now, God knows. I think this would be good for you, Benghazi LE was left to meet a basically dose yoga.

Yeah, so I picked for everyone what they should have and for the most part I did a good job yeah It was another part, I'm remembering now. So, ok, first of all yes, I went in thinking. This is gonna, be a micro. Those situation that maybe some colors are gonna be a little brighter than normal, so my expectations were not set correctly and then it did. They didn't catch up. but when we, but you you Changing your opinion, too, like I want more like I'd, feel nothing well well. I was like now that I've done this year. I better he'll something now, I did not want to feel like the my art. My hands were grandma hands. I just wanted what I was promised, which was that the world was can it be a little brighter and sparkling aristocratic. Would you bend over other friends who had microbes, correct yeah so so. I was like, let's take a more, but I was is not in the head space it I was gonna like take level. Do yeah, so anyway. So when you

were dosing. Ah, yes, you that to me. I think you should take this and I said really- and you didn't like that- I said that I do not agree, because I defence, I had lost complete kinda, like you guys had taken the one held in the second pillar in and I would add this way was like you want me involve. Let me do that yea. I understand your point of view. Like I already said, don't do that now. We're here and now it's time for you to listen to me, so I was my losing patience. I totally. I understand that and I was scared yeah, I was cleared, and I was just like our you like this seems like a line area. And in my defends I was right like that that there wasn't a micro to exactly using this as well. I was doing, but I was sceptical and you didn't like it, and then I felt like a okay now is to add at me about that bar you're, the only person or you, but if you require a abbot use snapped at me course, I did

now, though, I don T know why it's actually, probably not that we disagree about that. It's the! I want you to trust me. I don't I'm piss, you don't trust me, because I would never. I now not take care. You although twenty minutes later, I did not say that was part of it was part of his head. So I said: okay, okay, okay and then I I did it and that and I was like Are you serious? You got mad at me when I asked when I pushed back said, okay and now your guy, you be agreements, you have a legitimate grievances it all worked out. Our not worked out in it was a lovely and I am very grateful for you and I'm very faintly were there and I would not have been able to turn around if you weren't there was it made me so happy that you guys had such a sweet night.

is really funny to because of the I'd say. The success of the evening, it's kind of dissipated through our friendship circle, a couple different people Tommy like I'm gonna, do it I'm gonna, do it I'm gonna go with my girlfriend and we're going to do it. I forget, where and like cool in your girlfriend's done it and in she is like Now- and I you know, you can't go to a new someplace, they ve never been. Now neither person have done it am I I'm telling you you will convince yourself that you ve got the one bad batch of mushrooms and you're gonna die. That's what's going to happen. If there's not someone there whose either done it a bunch or a sober like I am totally everything's jail. No one's ever been hurt, but start thinking about this. I agree I would not recommend to people shown experiment own experiment, Gregg introduce me to it I'll, never forget what a fuckin day. I think I was about eighteen, high school and others like living in Detroit working for my mom, and I worked with this guy Gregg who fucking love so much and dumb.

he had this big Josh rooms. He's like you have your own. Do men he was a normal guy. Wasn't druggie yeah like if he had been like a druggie type? I wouldn't trust him he's a pretty straightway stewed who believed in cells. I was at a young age tat. He came over in four of us. Did a man, my mom's house, and then we wandered into Camp Dearborn, which I had been in a million times, and you were supposed to look like yeah. We wandered around the toboggan hills and I found a bulldozer that had the key in it. I drove those are land on love her, but it was such an incredible yeah. I was and there's nothing grimy about like. If you do Kogi give Falcon grows. If you do accuracy get precocity Matthew get grows the lot of these drugs, they mean they bring. The pleasure centre of your brain tat, the shrimp is not bad at all. Trims is there's nothing growing about it. Now. also for anyone who would want to see me in the future. As I told you do, I'm telling you not to do it don't ever do,

yeah condoning anyone to do, for you not allowed, not encouraging anyone to and I'm not liable, but my experience with, was this, and yours was that yeah. It's me very clear. Yes, yes, some arm chair, he gets loomed up and rights of bicycle off a negative with another, now learn nigh, advocating added donate. Now. This is our experience that were sharing yes We had a really funny moment were I kept pointing things out Monica again as I've done I'm a hundred times, and I know what's good things are going to look cool on it. What arts homelike Monica look at the wood here look at. Grain and the. What am I gonna do that, you, think, there's a sitcom going on in their early drama and you go.

How do you know there? Are you on it or you make me think that or do I think that a new us? It was fine, and I thought you weren't real, because I thought maybe origins in my brain somehow that you're on your own walk me. I dare say you know everything, I'm thinking so, which cannot be. You must be in my brain, which means you now rear. That was Another big take away was which she now, I think we know this and life, but it was so apparent how affected we are other people and other people's energy. So when I say I bummed everyone out, I think that's for real. Like Are you really glad you pulled me out, quick because everyone probably would have started getting really sad, really quick, because your entered he is so infectious and if you point something out in and it looks we are like, grandma hand when I saw at first. I was like end one of the other programmes,

yes was like. I know I know I know yeah and they re both were kind of feeding off of, like oh, that that got really scary. Real, quick, ok, ok, here. But then later when another participant was looking at hands She was like it cool yeah and then I was I to look on our own hands that you ve been staring at your whole lifetime and for them to be different. Also it is, but you can choose you either can see it looked both are true. It is scary, a heart to see something you know to be real and substantial in front of you not be there. And it's also cool. So you Never you say, can have such a big impact on the people around you and that's just like so true about oh yeah, energy, what you say, but again it got. It does go to that thing or seawards kind of eroding these walls between us words like it is so transmissible yeah.

like the loves, more transmissible their fears, more transmissible or more transmissible. But the thing is, I don't know that it's more I think it's the same amount as what we're doing data day. We're just start as aware of it are She does that. On a daily basis. I do agree, though, because the participate you're talking about in general life that person can make an observation. You would go well. We of course she sees it that way. is this- is this thing she's dying using, but I'm this thing that thing in this thing. So it's not the same for me. I, although, of course, that guy thinks that I always do this. Like anytime. I have a disagreement, was someone's perspective, neatly, try to figure out why their perspective I don't assume that their perspective is correct. That's true I think of the reasons why we have different one, You can really share perspective in a way on terms that it's hard to share. I guess I mainly mean more energy lies, like other people are happy, you can

you can borrow that energy. If someone is sat around you that has an impact on whether you you can logically be like that separate from me. It is seeping in or no for anyone who has a partner who has depression, has experience that yeah now, so it's it again. social responsibility that and take care of yourself so that you can take care of people around you do when you again, not a rush to do it again. It was wonderful, but I definitely don't feel like I gotta. Do it we again that and at the other thing is that like getting drunk or like that was fun, I won't get fucked up, there's something it's we it's a little exhausting yeah like that

ex couple days, you're aware that you went through this thing for sure and in a nice way, though, in this, like your tapped into some emotion, dear, that's, sweet, yes, and you can feel it and you're not anxious to get back in the fire gizzard process right and train understandable right, don't do it, don't it talk to his drugs. Don't do that.