Sergeant and MR smith year, love this house bunk bed in a closet, there's no, field manual for finding the right home. But when you do u s a whole wonders insurance canal protected the widely restriction. supply. This is ninety nine percent, invisible, I'm roman mars. The pandemic was terrible in every way, but I had one strange bright spot in my locked in homebound routine, a weekly zoom call with the genius director writer and producer ryan cooler of black panther fruitful station In fact, I know it's a prize me do you're about to learn more about how our wish to have got, started and or various takes on how we navigate creativity and collaboration on this episode of in proximity upon gas from proximity media, the company he founded within declare and several honey.

If a conversation with a person, I really a door and admire, and I thought I should like to hear and after you listen, I encourage you to go subscribed in proximity because it is a great show, especially if you like learning and thinking about the creative process. So without further ado, here's me being interviewed by rhine cooker Angela. Listening to pr there's a million ways to make something good like have reached this point, whereas, like I think, there's the beginning of your career, you feel, like you, don't know how to make something good and in them of career you're like I'm. The only one who knows how to make good you know that a perfect way that one way to tell a story and then yeah later on your career you're like there's a We wish to make the scope your listening for in proximity

roman mars is the hosting creator of ninety nine percent, invisible sound. Its narrative, podcast about architecture and design is also co, founder of the independent podcast, collective radio, Tokyo, twenty twenty one is teamwork, with proximity media to produce the jew. And the black messiah podcast, which help tell them true story behind the events portrayed in the film

in the black messiah is directed by shaka king and produced by proximity, media macro warner, brothers and her partners. The story follows f b. I informant William O'Neill played by Lee Keith stanfield as he infiltrates the illinois black panther party and is tasked with keeping tabs on their charismatic leader, chairman fred, hampton played by Daniel kaluuya in an oscar winning performance on this episode. Roman sits with our founder ryan kugler to talk about what they've learned in leading creative teams, their love of audio storytelling in their collaboration on the Judas in the blocks. I saw a podcast, I'm roman mars, I'm the host and creator of the show. Ninety nine percent invisible, I'm ryan kugler, I'm a writer writer producer, founder of proximity, immediate suicide to talk with you

I'm went back to my email to figure out what a day words are. We met What there was rogues artisanal bang. Look, I don't remember Well, I mean remember where it was so was Joe knife, twenty nineteen. Ok, it was at that is the association of architects. Yet america, it's two like and americans to have architect you know that architecture conference right yet in las vegas I was hosting it and you were the keenest. I was the keynote. You are you're the keynote interview like sometimes it's a speaker. Pelosi is yeah you're the final year of the final death it was so cool was great is light amazed, odyssey unaware why you a beer. I thought it would be fun because you know I figure you're about a million things when it comes to buy panther and marvel comic books and stuff, but

I think that you'd probably ever spent it like a dedicated, have our talking about the building in some way, but I know you'd thought about it, and so that's where I thought it would be actually a ton of fun and I think it turned out to be pretty fun. Nye was great. I had a blast. We were in vegas Look and irish being I release I to meet. You guys are albinos, says we're pack has for a long time, and you were there when I was a. It was a few other podcasters there with you. I remember like a year before I went on azula star stroked light of you to say what I love about. It was when we had to vegas. We talk for like narrow ten fifteen minutes before you went on and all we did was talked about I think you are just like. I like this one. I like this one y'all are thinking about doing this podcast all these ideas that you had, and I knew we were just like- peas, nepal, we hit it off when terms of podcasting yeah and then like she got we're with the pandemic in every day. But I remember

Somehow I convince you to do anything ever weak with me. just like canadian way how parkersburg is worse and it was great book the in, like we had the time pressure The ne got to the point when I was like really looking forward to it cause. It was during a pandemic when everything was nuts, it was really fun for me, too, we started with you just we know we were talking about proximity, we win the pakistan and I sort of started my own independent show and I ran and independent label and that was really fun, but it what I remember. We just had this weekly meeting in alike as like five clock or something and it was gonna on a wednesday or exactly like wednesday. Five. We talk in one or two hours a week, which is more than I talk to almost any. But if you anybody, there's like a very unusual here, but it was told

the fun in where I think I love most about it was. It was fun to talk about podcasting. It was fun to hear about moviemaking from you, but we would have hall to our conversations about just like politics and life our families- and you know our aberdeen and stuff like that. It was a real solve for me at a time period where I was suffering from a lack of connection to a lot of people yeah, it was great mani. You know one of the things that I admired most about. It was how how you kind of id mystified a lot of things. I heard about the park as business. I went to my favorite asia with your pakistan. Is radio with already alla time. You know that a large sums in it for me, you talk global by her I started in danish yeah yeah.

I was just someone who loved radio. I was in school to do something else. I was trying to be a scientist for a long time and I listened to in p r in the lab. I love the way the people talked. I just felt comfortable there and there was a certain point where I knew science wasn't. For me, my sort of genesis moment was listening to the show called talk, the nation and the time race warheads was the hope. To talk of a nation, and there was this. There was this episode. It was right around the time of the Clinton scandal with monica lewinsky and the subject of the hour was: if we don't have these Of heroes, anymore, who are modern day heroes if the president is valuable and is held accountable for something whose remarks heroes in about midway through the hour. Someone calls in and says you know what race, whereas you're my hero- and I was like scenarios like

You know what race war is my hero too. I feel like I need that grass, whereas, like I can't do what he does, because he he just seemed unfathomably good at this to me, but I know that as a person who reads books and helps him write the questions and I'll be very, very good at that job. That's called a producer, but they re not. I had at the time so then I began to this sort of like work, my life into someone who could be in a position to get a job like that's why I left grad school and moved out here, and then that was when I kind of film of radio.

then, because I couldn't afford a tv and listened to the radio all the time I drove out to san francisco in the late nineties and that's when I sort of began to soar figure out how to do stories and got a moran like a cassette recorder like these big marines recorders and began recording people and trying to figure out what I was going to do. I began volunteering at K, l w in san francisco, and I just worked at every type of job that they would. Let me work in it. I basically did it for free and that's how I started in radio and about this time that storytelling of IRA glass was sort of entering into this ascendancy. Like younger,

well we're becoming more interested in radio as a medium, and I just kind of fell into it and never looked back. Nasa may may so, where you ain't college at the time when you, when you had this kind of eureka moment, while you listen to rice, whereas I was in grad school, I studied population, genetics and plant flags, and I love that stuff. I, like I loved just finding out what made the world was really interesting to me, but in the end I just like knowing that issued a process of transition, and I realise that you had that idea Show in this the study was ally- was so I'd worked on. Every type of public radio show that you can imagine. You were like hosting Some music shows storytelling, show that in my own story, time show those local for a while- and I got me, the attention of a group called the third concern us audio vessel. They move to chicago to work at a bbc for a while, and then I was working on a show called snap judgment as a senior police her there

for a little bit and then nothing I presume invisible was presented to me. the idea of like the a chapter in San francisco was through a partnering with kale w to figure out. Would there be a a format for a little two minute, insert of a local building to tell a story about, and because of my science education, I've always liked sort. Technical subjects like explaining technical subject

As always really fascinated me- and I thought about this- is an idea I knew I wanted to expand it kind of more broadly to not be just buildings, but just like anything in the built world, like my first concept was like curb cuts like when it curb cuts, come into being like little ramps that make it so people with different mobility can get from a cross. The street essentially- and I was like I could tell a little story about an everyday thing, and I know that there will be a big story behind what seemed like little decisions, and that was what became ninety nine percent of visible and it was really like an exercise in. Could I conness seduce the audience through like tone a voice and story into carrying about things that they pass by every day that they dont thing is interesting and the challenge of that and the child

if doing an audio story about a largely visual thing that we experienced like built world design. That was really fun for me. May what was it lightly transition to being a business owner in multiple vehicles, bosses like while still being an artist like? How did you find that? How do you find it today? I like that. My job always changes so instead of radio there's a thing called a producer and a producer is, I think, the highest form of worker and human that there is a producer as a person who just will solve any problem to get the thing on the air or like available for someone to download, and that can be just like you do interviews. You write you edit things you do whatever it takes to get a thing done and that's what a producer is and that's why they're like the highest form of worker, because they'll really do anything to me.

Something happened and to me as the job changed and my job was as much about making sure the people under me. You were paid right. I liked solving that problem as much as I love to be an protocols, and I love to interview people and stuff like this. I got a real thrill at of like building something from scratch and making sure payrolls me the floor side of like enjoined to do everything. Is you end up doing doing everything in its harder to let some of that stuff go? I'm way better that now, because you have people on my team, you know you know. This is like their better at me then than them things you know like it's like there does better and you just like tom job. It is to get out of the way tongue, and so like that poor took me more time because you

takes a while to bring someone in and like show them a thing and, and they take twice as long as you do, and you just want to like I'll just give it to me, you don't like, and that sort of thing as she thought to myself the other day cause you know when you first started filmmaker you gotta fiscal, and I didn't you. Two editor used cinematography, united. Horrible you doing you're mix in brussels. I used to know these things and I used to be like fairly good at all of em. and I was thinking about now, like I'm like forgot job, I have somewhere and it was like a yo make a movie. I don't think I could do it. You know cause, I all the muscles I think, of like kind of atrophy as if to point where I'm like image is useless. Now you know, I feel that way. All the time is interesting too cause like you talk about, like a producer being like the highest form of functioning human on a project you like in a way direct is almost the opposite. Sometimes it feels like if you got go well well functioning, you say you gotta actors. You can come in not do any movie, has to have it in a way you saying like days,

so we're awful. I really like a significant satellites is so much is being delegated. This point now did I will talk about. I know that I like I used to mix and will be the final mixer on every episode of the show in the beginning really was just me and then it quickly became more and more and more people. Now I don't think Martin Gonzales, whose are you know sounded year. I don't think I could even understand the buzzing and processing he does to the south anymore, like I don't think I could even open it up and really get have you any just have to just let it like. I used to think that this would be like a spiritual death on my you know how that short and now like you just sort of ease into it like freezing the death are like

yeah yeah yeah, you just work your way to obsolescence. Yeah, I think. That's a that's really interesting sought to look like was greater about our relationship was like we didn't just talk about things like we actually got to make something together. You know If that was really like profoundly exciting. For me, it was honestly like what I liked a lot about. You was that we will talk, but it was very clear to me that I was talking to another person who was a doer. You know he was Pipe dreams like if we had the opportunity to work or southern and do some together, if something like a we're actually happy. We got that opportunity with the Judas of black messiah par cash yeah. It was our first time as a company make us something in audio. This was before. we hired to great paula morrow, who runs that division. Us we were like out forcing it to you, you can make it plain. I just a process like exhilarated,

So one of practically me as five films was Judas black messiah, which is co, written and directed by shaka king, and I was fortunate to be a producer on it and all my partners sat behind you in Zizi kugler. It was. It was incredible. Yes, but we also had a campaign park ass. It fell, which was near ready by over mitchell, produced by roma mars, Christopher Johnson, in the team at nine iverson invisible and it was a companion pasted, a film

really went into the making of it, but through the eyes of cherry free, I have his son sheriff happening junior and it was a really moving spanish, get them the package is receiving the member who we're talking about a show in trying to figure out like if there was a showed hearing. I what may cease spy. For a long time are blabbed a lot about the process. What was going on and how was clear to us that the show would be helpful in terms of geography ahead and Julia. Talking about the film we really like we looked at, it is like a cat pay, a piece deca help him in his mother mother could process what it's like to have. This partial story told through a major motion picture that affected their lives. You know yeah yeah, his father, their political leader, and you says I was really incredible. You gonna boil down to a sentence, and he said to show should be about a guy who's. Trying to protect his father's legacy and it was my boy might study in filmmaker time. I got my

agonies, europe's I got the accident that trotted dung and now mona hook as it would. I won't that, and you know me I thought that was just fantastic wool. I just wanted to be involved because there was a real reason for the dubious in abundance. I apologize to exist because there was a person there and chairman junior, who had something to say who, because of city of two hour filmed, dramatic entertainment can't have everything in it like it. Just can't people of their streamline people to be combined in a light it just the way it is is and yet very real limitations. At a medium, I mean it's incredible. You can tell so much more like in a single image. It tells so much, but also just like there's a way that people watch things that you just can't cram and all those details. The way you can in a conversation that people follow, and you know so, I loved the challenge of it and

I loved that it it is had you will the common design guy like to me like things have a reason to exist. They can't just exist to be filigree or extra or promotion like this was a companion that I thought moved the story forward in a way in terms like needed. Production like he had so much to say that it was like ok. So how do we order? That's like how do we go about this? How do we think about mama cool how we think about the fact that he meets this person plain his dad, whom he never really mad all that sort of stuff was so like intense and interesting and like he had these insights about filmmaking that were so interesting to me to cumbersome on. I should stress here that crisper Johnson produce this thing. I like yelped me like like a little baby.

In the morning Christopher Johnson to make the thing shall the christopher yeah, but, like chairman junior, had these insights like on set about just the sort of blocking of like having this white supremacist standing over his father is like his father. Would never do that and it's like this. These things are yep, yet that's right, yeah. It took some like that and having that conversation was just really really interesting and your partners at warner brothers were really good about letting him be critical and have it be general though I was impressed by that they're just they were just like. It was a cool problem to solve of like how do you make a companion where this person, like really has like things to say and not all of them are like. This is great yeah yeah. I felt it was interesting because we were we were to article, you know what I mean and a logline is like is like hey notices about a guy trying to protect his father's legacy. Like was simply theories he's trying to protect you from any.

a mistake we make in the film you know and also detective from this system that has to fight and thing totally ignored do his job, Together was a remarkable piece of journalism, but what I remember that that one of my fondest memories was on, I can't remember what exactly the term is, as you call it, but it was like when you guys had a script. Wanna go doc yeah. I just call. I were listening to you. How are you kind of like time and again in the nose, the area call that a red tape take a table. Reed we galleries So we have the all the clips out. We have like your parts, has for red Elvis's parts You know I would read some of em in that we have the tape and then there's all these sort of notes in the margins like if there's a mess up, we just keep going. You know and makes little notes the margin, and I remember we invited you to it in I I remember this very acutely, because I said you know we do this for like three hours, it's long, it's tedious! We go over every little word or phrase, and it might be really boring, and you said to me, I look at the

guy picking up a coffee cup thirty times to figure out which one is it? There nothing? Nothing for me it's like six thousand coffee cup. How? U story did so? yeah. That was really delay for the moment. You know it's coming to life like there's a you know, recommend when any one makes a thing. It's a very important to have these like to experience it with other people, because you feel the slow parts, the parts that just embarrass you, the parts that like you, feel them when people are next, you that you don't feel it by yourself, but you have to have these moments of sharing little bits of because, like to me, like my ears, get hot. You know like like get embarrassed about it, and I want that view. Away. Otherworldly, you know so I go and fix it. Are you now have you crochet men are really enjoyed their process

I got this theory like again more evidence of a daughter. I gate, Nobody really knows what anybody I was like he knows I like that. idea, you open up your mailbox, NEO mailers ear. You got me. De I got there or what it took and that you can't appreciate something until you understand, What went into it and most days you'll never know, I remember being on that call with your all. Seeing eye by like thinking so deeply, considering every word questioning days and a thought like yes, this makes sense alert as much care has gone into this day, and I love this is how these things may united podcast others to write your stories. Alison tories, weathers fifteen manage a twenty minutes, see in our process. in knowing that if something has been developed over time, I got to imagine a system that read the type system. Along with what you said, as system has been around roaming like over a mean for me, as I did so much of it by myself for a long time that there was no one to a kind of work with, but like

as soon as we had more than three people, we began doing it and I know other shows do it maybe they it's some common to. Instead, like record it or record scratch tracks of it and descended around, for notes and study this, but I find something like really good comes out in the moment doing it live you learn things and you learn. You assertion is like someone's writing for me. like in those situations, Minon Judas but like on on ninety nine right. There writing a thing that It's to be said for me to say, and then I would go well, I think I'd say a little differently here or that's really. You know they. Sometimes I really capture my voice or make a joke, or sometimes a joke

It comes out through that process and I've always sort of felt like what I liked about the format of nine amps invisible, because I kind of am there is a host like interjecting come all. The time was that I wanted the opportunity to you know to react, and some one says a thing, and rather than just let it sort of sit there. Everyone's thinking the same thing so it'll be fun just to say it quick, and so we figured that out for our show that it's a he mean it's like the best part of my day. We do probably one of those a week and, and sometimes it's hard but like you know, you've cracked it, but it's just like that's the I you know I sit, and now it's like sit in a zoom with like six.

Seven other people, unlike hearing their work for the first time and seeing it come together and seeing them take big swings and seen some of them connect and some of them don't it's just. I just recommend that you like get a group together and get a good group of people and help them be your editors, because no It has that good, a taster that could have instincts like there's a million ways to make something good like I've reached this point where I was like, I think, there's the beginning of your career. You feel, like you, don't know how to make something good and then the of a career you're like I'm, the only one who knows how to make good hit me. You know a perfect way. Does it one way to tell a story and then later on in your career you're like there's a million ways to make this good like I've heard and see, people do it so good and you could do it differently or you. Choose this one. Are you could say it this way? You set the right your way out of it to make. It makes sense for the body

and your serving an audience, but there's like a million ways to make a good radio story, there's a million ways to make a good movie absolutely, and so, once you sort of get into that zone, you allow people to like to try lots different things that you would never try. I mean that is like Heaven, as a creator is they have a team around you who brings these things that that just blow you away in a flight that produce what other directors you know what I mean like? I am talking about Judas. I thought I thought that was shaka like every day it was a y'all would never make this choice, but it's a perfect choice and I be around like, although it was, it was fantastic. What I like about working with you on Judas and all that for stuff, in those conversations we had was like You have other things to do. I'm in your writing. What kind of forever? At the time you have not going on you like no part of the podcast process, was on interesting to you. It was not. Levy may also afford

it to be, involve manning? It was like a dream of my you know I like to make a pie cash in general cause. I think the medium is so fascinating. It still is fascinating to me. I see stuff. We had a meeting this morning with his himself. Paula was doling out a man. If you ever saw, is so cool in interest in it. similarities to what we do is film makers have satellite is very, is very different. Like another form of digging. Do I love a man like few days. I love is my she's acts receiving meetings, the the

for so for my price rake, I'm going to take the easy way out and I'm going to recommend romans book, the ninety nine percent, invisible city yeah. I think that is a great book. A great piece of art in is really cool for me, because now, obviously roman makes audio. It was great for me to have a physical thing, I kind of see as almost like a campaign if you're a fan of the show, but

while a great wagoneer, a lot of great work of journalism in art, mighty great coffee table edition. You know meaningless ground with bush of nearly pressure friends they come over and I see as my price range for today yeah and I should add that I wrote parts of that, but my co author kirk Colston, who, like honestly, if he didn't work on that book, that book would have never gotten done so he's a real driving force behind the book. But I thank you so much. That means the world to me. I guess, if you you're interested in the craft of radio making audio making, I think the few places are more thoughtful than the website transom dot org. You could learn a ton and how. people make things understand what they're doing like what is imply when, like you, have music and the music goes out, and then the next thing you say like often comes very important. You like learning tricks like this, that you pick up on, but you just don't

You probably never really saw them, articulate it or heard them in such a way that you got what they emotion was, and that's the same things that I'm sure you learn in film, school and stuff like this is like this is what this does is what this cut. Does you know speeding up the dunno, the edit It's gonna like do this, have a rhythm he knows of like that. He is a language, you call it. The language of cinema, every art form has his language totally. oh, the audio like the best people for breaking that down in understanding how to do a type of audio storytelling the transom that organised really recommended, and the other thing I recommend is just like listening to things like everything wrong. I want to thank you for beyond our show in proximity. Maser word in a time, and I think folks really enjoy what you had to say. So, thank you, bro, it's my pleasure. It was a real honour.

In practice, committee is the production of proximity media. If you like, the shall be sure to follow Wait and review it on apple pie casts spotify or your favorite podcast up and tell your friends and loved ones to do the same. If you have someone in your life, we think would like the show send them relate to check our duty, like messiah, the film and podcast and ninety nine sent invisible had to proximity, media dot com. We got links on the show page, don't forget to follow at proximity, media on instagram, twitter and tiktok. The shows produced by me, Paula, Margo, executive producers are rang cooler.

In D. Kugler is several hanuman and me. Our theme song and additional music is composed by ludwig gordson. Can Nana is our sound designer and mix engineer paulina chairs over? Is our production assistant audio editing, for this episode is by cedrick Wilson, special thanks to the whole proximity media team and to you for listening to in proximity. It was great man, I'm right. There came by and got a book, and I would call like many citys where you live, you it wasn't all close. It was like now, industry known we had done all these audi zones? It was like we get this feeling that somebody like halfway across the world. You know what I'm saying.