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At the time now is ten. Fifty eight and at what point did you first approach you with this client If it was him and I clear home, he was saying like that. Gonna kill himself when he brought up the issue. Is then there is the other sure thing where he would. He wanted to Helen alarm by carrying on pushed the gruber Like the story in my eyes, is about lloyd and michelle and there's a door and there's my husband. He was such an attentive. Father Yeah yeah values are really raising person? These very charismatic shows a lot of care areas

sal- is truly praying in person scouting, wonderful, since a humour in this great with your favorite toy outside, carry it swing. My first impression was that they were sort of like a very perfects ideal Emily and they were really gonna pulling up the front by overtime I sought last spring. option for of started to change, and I was Michel's lawyer One had file for divorce. Michel was surprised that you find, for divorce says she was a stay at home mom. She had done everything she thought she could do can came, the family happy harry was at our. I t she was sets a graduate in another year. She says

It came to her. I can't afford to pay the bills. I can't afford to pay your mother there's no way out. I have to kill myself, I'm sorry, you guys have to go on without me, or got plan b here. Hearing he made you do. I was on a dream. But I thought I saw the mothers vanity fair way, but she was I could see through the stairs and see that somebody was clearly at the bottom of the stairs and they looked like they needed some sort of help did you ever think this case will go the way it s about. I got up, it would avail programme

for the garage is he's on the ledge I we just don't have cases like this with were this level pervasive trickle, soon entire life and then and then such a horrific events I don't know

the the the I would appeal for a ride. whole january day in two thousand eighteen, forty five year old,

lloyd, nigh writer was sir funded by local and state police, he's on a ledge on the fifth story of a parking garage in prison in jersey, threatening to jump wasn't supposed to end this way. Almost thirty years earlier in nineteen eighty nine sixteen year old, lloyd, had fallen foreign, older club, mate Michel blondie. They were going to the same high school and she was graduating and we told her she could invite friends and ass. He invited lloyd, michel's, mother genie remembers how quickly the relationship developed added she feel about him. Oh papers falling in love, Two years later in ninety ninety one, michelle void, tied the knot.

The newlyweds headed off to college view now Michel gave to a daughter, and two years later, second child carry her that the high carry, the family settled in the upstate new york, community of corny sudan, county district attorney, Brooks baker The kind of place where a lot of folks still don't lock their doors? Corning is a quaint family place best known as the headquarters of fortune. Five a company corning glass, lloyd, work. There is in engineer mama. Michelle gave birth to a third daughter and she homeschooled the kids, making a movie, or you are saying, I'm not being very interest right now later she would teach at a local college jaws.

As professor one I met so she was. on reading and writing and she would always really encourage I was to be well spoken and educated, mean, rise met, the ny writers, middle daughter, carry in ballet class and the too quickly bonded. All her downstairs his were very close. Her mothers cynthia would become when emissions closest friends once the very first time you met michel, I met light first because he would bring the children to class danced classes. He would. their hair and the mother is a rather smitten with him, but ass cynthia S, daughter, mina spent more time with carrie. She would I am concerned about lloyd's overbearing parenting style. There were times

Call my mom and tell her that I was worried about how strict of a disciplinary and he was for really really small things. Those sort of like you never know when he would snap and if he does I did ass? He was mad at one of them. He would call him over yeah frightens honour? Have them drop to their knees in front of a ruin? The time I witness that carry was very close to me. And I could see physically Nobody shaking I've seen them slap them slap cross on asia, but he do things to Michel. He would put her down. The smiling face, and then around thanksgiving, two thousand and seven Michel suddenly cut ties with their parents. Her mother, relieve lloyd, was behind the raft. What do you think happens? I think that he threatened her either to harm the children or

to harness the autumn. Her she said cynthia. It was lloyd that made me cut off contact with him. He didn't want her to a place to go if she wanted to leave, but it turned out, to be lloyd, who left the following year? In two thousand eight, he took a new job in new jersey leaving michel in their kids behind in core name. Once you gone. I shall seem like a different person better better. She seemed much more relaxed and in two thousand and thirteen after the couples, divorce Michel moved into this new house with the girls and that's what the real trouble began lloyd, wanted so custody of the children louis was been when in using a legal system to harass Michel it just never ending michel's divorce attorney citizen- that's just Tomer there were twelve

six separate sets of filings post of wars and how are you well, as that is super unusual. If you have two or three it's a lot to have twenty six is astounding and what he's ceiling, for what were these violence for you, you continue only a file things, making false claims against Michel lloyd was trying to get out of child support. and Michel accuse lloyd of, trying to turn the kids against her. The oldest was already living with lloyd and carry had gone off to college, but lloyd continue to fight for custody of their youngest. Then, fourteen years old we agreed not to show recent pictures ever, Are they? Anybody who worked in a court house had heard about than I write or cases has been away for going at nonstop so. This is one of those cases that every based, where I've heard about her talk about over the water cool

or at a bar out in the name came there was one of those cases. I just didn't go away. but in late august, two thousand and seventeen loi did something unusual. Susan got this tax promised now, and she says I'm in shock. Lloyd did not show up for the appearance for his petition for sole custody. He did not withdraw. He did not ask for an adjournment. He did not answer. ports phone calls emails! Nothing. How are you was up for him, knowing how many of these violences made. It was very unusual whose very unusual it was unthinkable rarely because of lloyd's, no show. The case was dismissed the shells soon relieved and happy. It was and she had mutual friend of ours and the children sly. on big blocks of ice down. A hill of brass what Two days later, monday

august. Twenty eight two thousand and seventeen of family friend came to pick up the ny writers fourteen year old for swim practice. instantly. He news, They must very wrong happening at a friend's house. Corny police sergeant John MC did. It was the first to respond to Michel's house that afternoon so tell me what you ve done. So I walked up to the fore. Door here and through these He's a glass I could see inside and I can see a female way at the bottom of the stairs opened the door. A dog came running out, I came running in got closer. I could see there was a rope around her neck, there's no pulse. She was called in stiff and touch

Here he found forty six year old, Michel nigh rider dead. Some of their first thought, when you saw, was what severe suicide by hanging. but corning, police, chief, Jeff body wasn't so sure, because you couldn't How soon got a mark here now I didn't- I didn't that was unsettling. It appeared as though somebody had gone behind and thrown rope over the neck and pulled back and down and cause what's more michel's, youngest child, the fourteen year old at the heart of the custody battle and who was supposed to be picked up for swim practice was nowhere to be found and obviously the number of possible outcomes there that are bad. Is it

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I have to do is say I do. Zola is here for all the days along the way. I suggest that we checked winter, we check the addicts we checked garages in the hours after police arrived at michel, nigh writers, home a frantic search was on lieutenant Jeff heavily couldn't find her foot thirteen year old, daughter anywhere, she should have been I know that she resided with my later that day. He got a phone call This is what I have really can I help you. I might carry it was nineteen year old. Carry rider Michel's met

well. Child. My friend called me today and call me about my mom that I'm sorry, that's okay. carry told the officer that her younger sister was saved still with you now he's in my apartment She was nearly one hundred miles away with carrie imre Esther new york carry then told heavily how it happened. She driven back to corning late saturday. Night display one last night in her bedroom at home. When I got there, I remember I'm through freaking out But now I carry said her mother raged at her accusing her.

taking your father's side in their family court battles are in fuel but open with afraid, and he went to her room If you you're, yelling carrie says she decided to leave taking her younger sister with her, she claimed that she was concerned for her younger sister, so she had taken her outside put her in the car and then had and her two rochester, while police were relieved. That Michel's youngest was save, carries story didn't really make sense. Why would shelby so upset on this? one day she had been celebrating her court victory. Those who knew Michel bass couldn't believe sheet Her own life I believed that she was determined to have sex five and she did she had a great shout.

And it was not the place in her life, she would have committed suicide after all of the really difficult year she had been through, while europe here. Michel had hanged herself. There was that ligature mark on her chin, as LISA waited the results of the autopsy. I thought we would get some some definite results. They would say, oh yeah, one hundred percent. This is a homicide or yeah one hundred percent. This is a suicide, but them michael examiners conclusion surprise them. They tell us undecided, undetermined causation Shells. Mother didn't need an autopsy to tell her what happened. I did not please she countries, She immediately thought murder one name, came to mind. I'm thinking it's more than likely lloyd killed her, but I couldn't figure out how, because he had an alibi,

lloyd, nigh writer was in fact more than twenty five hundred miles away in california for a job interview when police discovered michel's body. How long have you been california, who yesterday carry told investigators trawl trial about it was corning at all. Yesterday now he help move me in to my apartment on Saturday years and encouraging even if lloyd wasn't in core name. He had been close about one miles away, so all of a sudden he's only an hour and change way up in rochester. carry says that after her father helped her move into a rochester apartment on saturday, he spent than in a hotel and flew out to california. The next day he was still there when the family notified him of his shells. Death, he flew back east and within

Thirty six hours showed up at this to county family court. I came to turn off his child support maidens payments as the first by sea land when he heard his ex wife it committed suicide, that's correct, police caught up with them outside the courthouse investigative, all good, just cautious about how approach a car of don't want to start. Anybody If anybody is currently video If you have have a long conversation, Michel nauseous commoner. She did calmly at those carries on has been in the hours. We're Michel's dad He was in rochester helping carry move into a college apartment checking the microphone lloyd says he act into that hotel saturday, hotel security cameras back him up care came over for a while dark parking lot. Video then shows both he and care

heading to our car. They walked around from car, no one who knew about another. I invited her to breakfast the next morning, and its seven a m. The next morning, cameras show carry arriving for breakfast now, with her fourteen year, old sister in tow and you also then check to spot. Where was his founder in our time, charters, foam, a kind of cooperative work will, carry it told us the dead stated the hotel, but the whole. A video tells a different story when lloyd walk carried too car that night he could be seen. Get in the car with her and then driving off and the video doesn't show coming back that night, so, while lloyd was in the hotel room all night where was lloyd. Investigators

I do wonder, especially when they looked at the hotel. Video from the next morning. We don't you all night long, haired us, thirty in the morning, and here he comes under the camera, is walking across the parking lot and is walking to his his vehicle. This appears to be wearing the same clothes that he had on the night before lloyd story was that he stated the hotel room all night. The video evidence is saying: no, he didn't police were now certain loi was line to them. They dug deeper looking for a motive. He was not a good fire like lord, had overheard thousand dollars and credit card that any was paying his ex wife almost six thousand hours. My bakers says after resells, dad lloyd, try to collect all michel's life insurance for pay out of two hundred.

In sixty thousand dollars they suspected lloyd, killed, Michel and carry might be covering forum. So signed a go up on a wiretap one on lloyd's form carried home breakdown, retail, almost two and a half months after Michel's dad. Police began listening I don't, hi, I'm lindsey, graham the host of pod podcast american scandal. We bring to life. Some of the big controversies. In? U s! History, presidential lies environmental disasters, corporate fraud. In our new a serious, we look at the kids for cash scandal, a story about corruption inside america's system of juvenile justice. In northeastern pennsylvania residents had begun, noticing and alarming trend. Children were being sent away to jail in high numbers.

often for committing only minor offences. The f b I began looking to local judges and when the full picture emerged it made national headlines. The judges were earning fourchan carrying out a brazen criminal scheme, one that would shatter the lives of countless children and force a heated debate about punishment and america's criminal, just system follow american scandal. Wherever you get your pont guests, you can listen ad free on the amazon, music or wondering app I clearly it out you drive so far. I find very good info two thousand seventeen a little over. Two months after michel, nigh writers, dad corny, believe began. Listening in on lloyd and carry nigh writers phone calls. Well,

and go up on the wire until mid november. This had happened at the end of august beginner to september, so had been two months- and there wasn't a lot that was being said so in order to in o connor refresh things we did what was called tickle the wire tickles, irish, it's a ruse, familiar two cops working drug cases. An investigator caused hurry saying they have more questions for reforming police chief Jeff spalding played the role Worrying for us, just carry greater than the bulk of it has to be. Vegetable. Peeler call of duty

from what breeder call and boy I dunno if you're going to be around if you dead time to meet up with me or what time you stop in to see me. Okay after hanging up with, please carry quickly call it a father just like we hope the next phone calls lloyd, saying what what do I do, what exactly Helen eloise his eyes, probably just for its just form. Don't worry about it. but then he says- and this is where we sort of puts our doubts aside. He says, but I don't think I want you talking to Helen, I'm sorry, I got. I got a counseling appointment back in. tonight down this have been really hard on. Did you cry geier united than I was just over

I agree. Why lie exactly why not just sit down with your here, spend twenty minutes in an until the seams. Well, you already have the more serious. I guess you haven't watched yeah. He wouldn't ask you to come, walk in the front door and he'd say I have a warrant yeah, so it can be Police are clearly suspicious, but with that under terms individual autopsy holding the case back the dna ass, a private forensic pathologists, taken new look, and can and finally, whether michelle was murdered. We take all the pictures from the autopsy. We take all the findings of documentation of evidence and we go to sit down the There was no body for him to examine because law, Michel's remains cremated, but the path I just saw that wrote mark on Michel's gin and particular him

jane in her eyes and they leave, a few more things out of the way the doctors do in silence and and says. This is a homicide. Michel, nigh writer was strangled. Dad police headed out to confront waiting carry on that point you're thinking lloyd's. The ring later no question: do you think that event. act. Carry no writer was involved. She was going to be the weak link. I thought that ship she would be the weak link in an interview room without dad. Without her cell phone and hard interview with her. I thought she would be the first to give on January twenty four, two thousand eighteen. Five months after Michel's death, two investigators showed up at lloyd's office in new jersey. At the same time, a pair of state police troopers, fine, carry

at our college, internship and syracuse new york. Was this your hale mary pass? Was this it? So this? What we considered investigators bright, the news to lloyd and mc lloyd. Look, we gotta tell you something if the medical examiners ruled this a homicide where you're down there that I know rochester and so that night you were in your hotel room all night and they suggested that she's lloyd? Maybe you want to take up a lot attacked or test and, to my surprise, he's he censure so the given directions? a police station down a new jersey where we had a polygraph operator that was already on call lloyd, appeared confident in his innocence, two hundred miles away and Sarah accuse carry was anything but carry cracks. Eurocrats at there was

Barely a whisper on a police, audio recorded carry admit surface they went to her mother's house with her that night and she helped him get in undetected, water before dormouse you challenged british one. Where was my own shares of upper stairs to my dad come in? They started arguing. He went upstairs neighbor. In her room carry said her mother stop yelling and it suddenly got very quiet at first she tells police. She didn't know why. But then she had met you.

When you I was, there was one of those holy cow moments. I was like wow. investigators then took carried to a police station. They wanted the whole story on video shop, says her father came to or a week before, the murder. She says it all came to her ranges, I can afford to pay your mother there's no way out, though I gave carry an unfathomable ultimatum inconveniently over there and who, basically, you hung up.

hearing my mom, she says lloyd, laid out his plan. They would make it look like a suicide burner you carry says she say downstairs watching over her younger mr asleep, in the living room the men. Why are you doing Why are you here

commotion woke up, carry sister, you friend, to ran her their and eye when lloyd was finished he's sneaked out the back of the house around the side and then climbed into the open, rear hatch of carries car according to carry her. Fourteen year old sister never knew her father was there no leaves were now ready to arrest loi. The only problem he never showed up for that polygraph test. He had disappeared, they lost them and they did they do delusion. But lord who had his phone and we still, whereupon the wire lloyd's phone. We knew

his phone was in downtown princeton somewhere they manage is it to a municipal parking structure and there on the roof lloyd, nigh rider when the officers moved in to confront lloyd, enter to pick him up. He bolted and hopped up on well and threatened jump off the funds to reporting grudge commit suicide. What do you Egg of carry story. Watch more of the confession on facebook, at forty eight hours votes who hours lloyd, nigh writer kept police at bay when he turned his back they made their move, this new jersey

they trooper, who played football somewhere. He makes a ten yards spread and just flattens tackles a the party that we all want to go home. Louis was arrested and charge with first degree murder of his ex wife, Michel nigh rider their daughter carry with them These believed a been manipulated by lloyd, face second degree charges for helping your father get into the house that night what was your reaction when you heard not carry in February two thousand eighteen district attorney, Brooks beggar began preparations to face off the court ruled this became. Essentially are our nerve centre are warm room for the for the trial. This is that technical further Kay

Try now you ve even a murder case. Usually we can survive in a box or two, but to go for five boxes. The of how much it? There was here that there is a reason why you got up there. I am via this michel's to finally Michel life. It ass. It is since a saturday she was murdered. This is a good day for them and they went icing. They get Can we say about their there on great big ice blocks? This reminds us why we're doing it? Because this he's not here to have another day like this. The baker knows his eyes of conflicting. Lloyd, will greatly increase if he could convince carry to testify against your father. She looking fifteen years to life if she cooperates with the understanding that, if she does not cooperate in this, not truthful at trial should face twenty five years to life.

it takes carried sitting in jail cell a couple of weeks, to decide. She agrees that the fight against her father and plead guilty, but then during and interview with investigators, she surprises everyone with a new detail. Here is where my moments for air he's a new home, you're lifting her admitting. For the first time she had an even bigger role, helping her father cover up the murder. We dragged her around the corner and he time the wrote that in front of the minister and lifted her up and put her face her so far so good. She laid her hands,

her mother and felt her her mothers, cold dead body? That's that's pretty as pretty hard core this is the woman. They gave you life and you may be didn't directly, take her life, but you helped the individual that did It was so hard to understand how could a child do they, to her mother could look, really have manipulated. Carry into this that same problem, and even as we are preparing for trial secure you can we ask that question. There was a moment when you, your father, says to you it's either. I have to kill mom or or I kill myself, and you have to help me in those. The only to choices and why she's a smart girl? She could have said no well, and you know The folks in jonestown could have said we're not going to drink the kool aid. You think she was brain. I really think she was brainwashed when we, now that there is a definition, for what he was doing and are you type

no area alienates. Yes, I am parental alienation. It's when one consistently bad mousie other in front of their children, and it's something michelle worried about. In fact, in these court documents filed in, years preceding her dad. We shall actually accuse lloyd of turning I again, sir, the district attorney thanks, that's exactly what happened. I can understand how you could how's, your children to dislike the other parent, but a careful at other heritage seems like a step too far. I don't think it's causing dislike. That's not what this regulation it causes them to absolutely devalue them, as people case in point. Two years before her death michel was back in.

Of her driveway while carry bickered, whither and tried to block her car from leaving friends, say lloyd. Thank vince. Carry that michel tried to run around carry even call police on her mother and while the charges didn't stick, The idea seemed to, if you can and wash your daughter into thinking that her inching out of the driveway was your mother trying to run you over then well. She trying to kill you sometime came for you to help trying to kill her, and when lloyd later gave carry that ultimatum we are here or their way up.

My mom, the dna says, carry felt she had no choice but to choose her father over her mother, but would the jury believe it as lloyd's trial approach? The d I was determined to paint a picture of carry as lloyd's pawn. Boyd had his own plans. Is his defence gonna? Be that she did it it has to be. Find out more about the signs of parental brainwashing that forty eight hours dot com the How much for you looking forward to try and lied? No writer from murder. You know you never look forward to a trial because it

ninety hours of work every week. This one I want to try, I wanted, I wanted every way to see who lloyd was from a shell say to see what he had done to her. The evidence against lloyd, nigh writer was circumstantial. All the dish good thirty had was carries word and the during my not believers story, what he needed was fit. I evidence linking lloyd the murder of his ex wife Michel. We took Michel's close. We had re examined by a staple he's. Looking for touch, dna done what we found was lloyd's. Dna had had contact with the shells. Clothing, the the damage was wearing, the nature was murdered. Secures gave lloyd. The damning news and a final operate unity to come clean. We made him an offer, I sort of expected he would never ever except he had to plead guilty as charged first degree murder.

We face a sentence of twenty five years to live with the past, but the judge consents in life without rural and just two weeks before trial So what'd lloyd decide to do. He decided to plead guilty as part of his plea deal lloyd, the recount his role in the murder, but when it came time to personal responsibility. I thought we we're gonna go bad from minute. One cause. You start up waning michelle there were no cameras in the court room, but lloyd tells the judge he kill Michel because he believed she might hurt their children. would be lloyd, blame everybody has blamed the victim, but then he sort of sir but It doesn't matter. I have no excuse. Murder is wrong and, and he went through an alligator, Line by line or what he did. In the end, lloyd fulfilled his end of the plea deal admitting he planned and carried out the homicide

that he manipulated carry into helping him. So much had happened to him. I want him to have life in prison. Two hundred to ever get out and ever hurt my grandchildren again. He has an evil mind Michel's mother Jeannie's spent days writing a statement. She hopes will persuade the judge to give lloyd us centres she read it to us. Lloyd, nigh writer, abused and tortured my daughter for twenty five years. He cursed his own daughter into helping him kill her mother. curious now in jail facing the possibility of years in prison, lloyd, right. I should never be given the opportunity to harm anyone again, your honor give him life without pearl and there

exactly what the judge would do and what do you think about what happened to on I'm so overjoyed and so happy life without proper, and we shall get justice but there was still the matter of carry and what price should she pay for her mother's dead at the heart of what is in it. That's a hard one. I don't believe she should go to prison. I think that she needs psychiatric help. I think she's alive there be District attorney brooks baker would agree, carry needed there a bay, but he didn't think That would be enough. She has to pay a price. She ass, a service action, I think for her own sanity. She needs a certain penance women. The carry initially planned guilty to second degree murder, a charge. Second put her imprisoned,

for fifteen years, but the da It is a decision allowing to now play guilty to a lesser charge. Second, agree manslaughter genie again wrote to the judge, I always ask myself Wouldn't shall want me to do. I do not believe my daughter, Michel, with want a long prison sentence for her daughter You want her to eventually led a happy life and the judge would be lenient. Very lenient Carry nigh writer was sentence one to three years in a state prison. It was a huge relieved. Guinea who planned to tell her and her two sisters, all about michel and just how much she loved them.

she knew tat, she lost them the tourist and she wanted them to be happy and she hoped this sunday. They would realise what was done and come back to her and see how hard she fought for them to have a good life. She wanted to live a beautiful life to have a view of life and for them to be happy the carrie knight rider was released from prison on parole on January, sixteenth, twenty twenty, oh have you got your kingdom I out her. This is horrible. This poor woman has risen One to remember: she was attacked on a muddy road. Everything changed when law enforcement found the body. Forty eight,

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